Views on Defence and its true resistance.

[Tim]

Well since my rant ended up into a debate amongst players, We'll shift over to the debate side of things.

 

 

 

Defence: A skill thats supposed to make you last longer, hit less and generally survive....Or so we thought.

 

 

 

As your fighting against a player of lower levels, your defence is higher then both their attack and strength level (obviously not combined as thats impossible), out of no where, a player strikes through you. You get up and brush it off thinking "damn, that was a close call". Within moments they're tearing away at you, as though you were wearing paper for armor. Now the obvious question here: Does defence need fixing.

 

 

 

obviously saying yes or no isn't enough so state your views. My views on it is yes, its the slowest of combat skills to raise (were not talking power training with 99 str/atk + super sets either), Unless well funded (especially with armor rising to such drastic prices now) its neer impossible to protect yourself and resort to runite until barrows drop.

[Sir_Kurity]

I find even with 71 range, i have a very hard time hitting thought 30 defence and rune.

 

 

 

I don't think it needs to be better, maybe changed would be a better word. More damage reducing, as opposed to a chance at making you hit a zero.

[JoeDaStudd]

Nope defense is fine as it is.

 

Of course its better to be rounded then massively high defense and no attack or strength or high attack/strength and low defense.

[Mico]

Nope defense is fine as it is.

 

Of course its better to be rounded then massively high defense and no attack or strength or high attack/strength and low defense.

 

 

 

Actually, high attack and strenght while leaving defence behind is better than rounded skills. The opposite is just silly, high defence and no attack and strenght would only work with high range/mage.

[perfetc]

The whole concept of defence is runescape is wrong, another word for defence is protect but in runescape defence means dodge.

 

 

 

So It should either be renamed or the meaning changed to the classic style of armour lowers hits.

 

 

 

How much does full rune weigh? 50kg? How does wearing that kind weight make it easier to dodge attack? Thats backwards to me.

 

 

 

If you wear the lightest armour on the game which I assume is magic gear since it is only cloth, that makes you easier to hit which kind of makes sense, (with lighter armour you can move out of the way easier) but if you do get hit cloth isn't going to stop a sword.

 

 

 

On every game you can think were armour is available defence lowers hits (think diablo, oblivion, fallout 3, baldurs gate etc) I can not think of a single game were it is to dodge.

 

 

 

It defies logic.

 

 

 

To add to the bizzare logic when you carry heavy equipment (weapons, armour etc) it makes your run energy go down quicker but that same weight helps you dodge attacks? I know runescape is fantasy but come on!

 

 

 

 

 

The only possibility I can think of is if the armour has "magical" propities that make you able to dodge for a stealth character, perhaps?

[Darkblade20]

Strength simply allows you to hit higher more often. Attack determines how often you hit, and defence determines how often the other players misses you, in relation to the opponents attack level. The problem being, it doesn't work that way.

 

 

 

With 99 attack, I have trouble hitting people with 80 defence, and under at times, while people with maybe 75 attack, can hit through my defence as If it were level 1 (My Def. is 85). Yet, at the same time, I can hit through people with 99 defence, as if they had 80 defence as well. So, what you run into, is dominantly random hits, with skill level barely playing a factor of around 1% in how the battle plays out.

 

 

 

Thus, 99% of a fight is luck, with the other 1% consisting of: Skill levels, equipment bonuses, etc.

 

 

 

Although, that 1% can often determine the outcome of the fight, luck is the only way to explain how lower skill levels can trump higher levels.

[perfetc]

Strength simply allows you to hit higher more often. Attack determines how often you hit, and defence determines how often the other players misses you, in relation to the opponents attack level. The problem being, it doesn't work that way.

 

 

 

With 99 attack, I have trouble hitting people with 80 defence, and under at times, while people with maybe 75 attack, can hit through my defence as If it were level 1 (My Def. is 85). Yet, at the same time, I can hit through people with 99 defence, as if they had 80 defence as well. So, what you run into, is dominantly random hits, with skill level barely playing a factor of around 1% in how the battle plays out.

 

 

 

Thus, 99% of a fight is luck, with the other 1% consisting of: Skill levels, equipment bonuses, etc.

 

 

 

Although, that 1% can often determine the outcome of the fight, luck is the only way to explain how lower skill levels can trump higher levels.

 

 

 

99% luck is a bit much, maybe 50% is luck.

[Darkblade20]

99% is completely reasonable, the Law of Averages dictates this. A number like 50% would imply that 5/10 fights, a level 3 can beat a level 100. Yet, on the stated 99:1 ratio, not only can fights go any way they want, but that 1% is what determines the battle, which, would dictate that the level 3 would probably lose every time due to poor equipment bonuses, and low levels. Although, the chance is always present that the lv 3 could win.

[perfetc]

The only way a level 3 could beat a level 100 is if the 100 had nothing and the level 3 had iron.

 

 

 

Even if the 100 had bronze he would still kick the crap out of the 3 in bronze since even with bronze people can hit 12's.

 

 

 

There is no way it is as high as 99% luck.

 

 

 

If that was the case a 138 (in Statius's) vs a 3 (in nothing) would still have a chance of winning? He wouldn't if them 2 fought 1 million battles the 138 would always win, even if the 3 used a super set he would still get pwnd every time.

 

 

 

Find a level 100 in f2p with a level 3 find some were to fight and see how many times you win.

[langer]

99% is completely reasonable, the Law of Averages dictates this. A number like 50% would imply that 5/10 fights, a level 3 can beat a level 100. Yet, on the stated 99:1 ratio, not only can fights go any way they want, but that 1% is what determines the battle, which, would dictate that the level 3 would probably lose every time due to poor equipment bonuses, and low levels. Although, the chance is always present that the lv 3 could win.

 

 

 

Way to conradict yourself... all fights are 99% luck right?

 

The you say that it is the 1% that determines the outcome?

 

You make no sense at all.

 

 

 

If it's 99% luck, then the lvl 3 vs lvl 100 fight you propose would end up being 49.5% won by the lvl 3 and 50.5% won by the lvl 100.

 

 

 

All fights are luck-based, but the only way to improve your luck is to maximize your lvls and attack - str bonus from equipment.

 

 

 

Let's say you have 80 attack and a total equipment bonus of 135 slash. Getting 90 attack will only provide a 4.7% increase in hitting rate. This is not a huge difference between 2 players.

[Darkblade20]

Laws of probability, as well as some theorems dealing in quantum physics state that anything could be a possible outcome. I'm not contradicting myself, just confusing poor people who don't waste as much time in this stuff as I do.

[perfetc]

Laws of probability, as well as some theorems dealing in quantum physics state that anything could be a possible outcome. I'm not contradicting myself, just confusing poor people who don't waste as much time in this stuff as I do.

 

 

 

Are you trying to use long words to look smart cos based on your suggestion that a level 3 could beat a level 100 your not smart.

 

 

 

quantum physics has nothing to do with runescape, quantum physics talks about things like super fluidity (my personal fav, yes I love science :oops: ) not how often a level 3 can kill a level 100.

 

 

 

Thats about as probable as wednesday coming after monday, never going to happen.

[archimage_a]

Defence works pretty well, to be honest.

 

Its everything else that knackers it.

 

By using different armours, by using pots and boosts and prayers you can easily boost your attack from 80 to over a hundred.

 

 

 

80+16(20%)+12(15%) =108

 

 

 

When you reach level 99 though you stop using pots and prayer against other players because you are at the top of your game.

 

Hence you are complaining that a higher level has owned you...

 

 

 

Furthermore defence has helped me to consistantly beat monsters that are a higher level than me. If defence didn't do anything then I should have died a lot of the time. So, if the system works, then there must be a problem with the player.

 

 

 

There is no 'Phantom quantum probability luck' monster but rather people playing the game better than you are.

[perfetc]

Defence works pretty well, to be honest.

 

Its everything else that knackers it.

 

By using different armours, by using pots and boosts and prayers you can easily boost your attack from 80 to over a hundred.

 

 

 

80+16(20%)+12(15%) =108

 

 

 

When you reach level 99 though you stop using pots and prayer against other players because you are at the top of your game.

 

Hence you are complaining that a higher level has owned you...

 

 

 

Furthermore defence has helped me to consistantly beat monsters that are a higher level than me. If defence didn't do anything then I should have died a lot of the time. So, if the system works, then there must be a problem with the player.

 

 

 

There is no 'Phantom quantum probability luck' monster but rather people playing the game better than you are.

 

 

 

Defence works very well against monsters.

 

 

 

I was killing drags before and before I started hacking away I drunk a super def which made me take very little damage the highest was about 8 then as the pot wore off and I got to 87 def the hits started getting more constant and harder hitting till I got to my normal level which hit 14, 14, 10.

 

 

 

I don't pk but I have played my fair share of castle and soul wars and I die ALOT quicker there then against any monster, which is understandable given the massive amounts of damage that things like godswords can deal and my def is rather low.

 

 

 

Tha being said I still think the meaning of defence should be changed to the proper meaning. It just makes more sense that way.

[Inuashakent]

Anymore buffs to defense and I see some major collapse in the current gameplay.

[Tim]

 

So It should either be renamed or the meaning changed to the classic style of armour lowers hits.

 

 

 

 

This was the first thing that came to mind on that:

 

 

 

"Congratulations! your dodging level is now 60! You can now dodge Dragon weapons!

 

....Oh and wear Dragon Armor, but You can dodge Dragon weapons man!"

[perfetc]

 

So It should either be renamed or the meaning changed to the classic style of armour lowers hits.

 

 

 

 

This was the first thing that came to mind on that:

 

 

 

"Congratulations! your dodging level is now 60! You can now dodge Dragon weapons!

 

....Oh and wear Dragon Armor, but You can dodge Dragon weapons man!"

 

 

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[quelmotz]

All I can say is: Change the current defense to "dodge" or any other synonym, and the real "defense" should be DAMAGE RESISTANCE, not damage dodging.

 

 

 

For example:

 

 

 

You attack 5 times.

 

Say your accuracy is 5 units. - Weapons increase this, but it depends on the type of weapon. Attack also increases it for obvious reasons.

 

The opponent's dodge is 2 units. -Shields/some armor types (?)/your own dodge increase this.

 

If you're rolling a dice, its a 50% chance you'll hit (5-2=3, 3/6 = 1/2 = 50%)

 

 

 

Say your damage is also 5 units. - Weapons increase this, but it depends on the type of weapon. Strength also increases it for obvious reasons.

 

The opponent's toughness is 2 units. - Armor/defense increases this.

 

If you're rolling a dice, its a 50% chance you'll hit (5-2=3, 3/6 = 1/2 = 50%)

 

 

 

Basic enough for you?

 

 

 

This is what I see as the ideal attack/strength/dodge/defense.

[archimage_a]

 

This was the first thing that came to mind on that:

 

 

 

"Congratulations! your dodging level is now 60! You can now dodge Dragon weapons!

 

....Oh and wear Dragon Armor, but You can dodge Dragon weapons man!"

 

 

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

 

 

A bad thing definately. The flipside would be that a level 59(Defence) would have the same capacity(0) to dodge dragon weapons as a level 1. There by meaning the game would be entirely unbalanced.

 

Plus it would make wearing armour pointless...if you can dodge weapons then why wear the armour?

 

 

 

The only way I can imagine this working would be a percentage dodge.

 

Level 10: You can now dodge 5% of the time.

 

Level 20: You can now dodge 10% of the time.

 

Level 99: You can now dodge 50% of the time.

 

 

 

Then give armours the ability to deflect damage, but reduce your dodge bonus by the number of Kg they are...But then you have to take into account a 99, with a cape, using prayer and pots

 

 

 

100+25%+15%. You would have someone who could run around in mage robes and boots of lightness with a 70% chance to dodge every attack.

 

That is hardly a reasonable version of the game, now is it?

[quelmotz]

 

This was the first thing that came to mind on that:

 

 

 

"Congratulations! your dodging level is now 60! You can now dodge Dragon weapons!

 

....Oh and wear Dragon Armor, but You can dodge Dragon weapons man!"

 

 

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

 

 

A bad thing definately. The flipside would be that a level 59(Defence) would have the same capacity(0) to dodge dragon weapons as a level 1. There by meaning the game would be entirely unbalanced.

 

Plus it would make wearing armour pointless...if you can dodge weapons then why wear the armour?

 

 

 

The only way I can imagine this working would be a percentage dodge.

 

Level 10: You can now dodge 5% of the time.

 

Level 20: You can now dodge 10% of the time.

 

Level 99: You can now dodge 50% of the time.

 

 

 

Then give armours the ability to deflect damage, but reduce your dodge bonus by the number of Kg they are...But then you have to take into account a 99, with a cape, using prayer and pots

 

 

 

100+25%+15%. You would have someone who could run around in mage robes and boots of lightness with a 70% chance to dodge every attack.

 

That is hardly a reasonable version of the game, now is it?

 

 

 

Not really. If you manage to hit them, their flimsy armor isn't going to protect them in any way whatsoever. So its a sacrifice. Do you want to wear light armor and risk getting stabbed to death by a highly accurate warrior or wearing heavy armor and getting bashed up by a brutal barbarian?

 

 

 

Say 70% chance to dodge, but your damage resistance will be something like 10% at most. A person hitting you 100 times will do a point of damage 27 times, roughly 1 in 4 hits. Which isn't particularly invincible or unreasonable, is it?

[perfetc]

 

This was the first thing that came to mind on that:

 

 

 

"Congratulations! your dodging level is now 60! You can now dodge Dragon weapons!

 

....Oh and wear Dragon Armor, but You can dodge Dragon weapons man!"

 

 

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

 

 

A bad thing definately. The flipside would be that a level 59(Defence) would have the same capacity(0) to dodge dragon weapons as a level 1. There by meaning the game would be entirely unbalanced.

 

Plus it would make wearing armour pointless...if you can dodge weapons then why wear the armour?

 

 

 

The only way I can imagine this working would be a percentage dodge.

 

Level 10: You can now dodge 5% of the time.

 

Level 20: You can now dodge 10% of the time.

 

Level 99: You can now dodge 50% of the time.

 

 

 

Then give armours the ability to deflect damage, but reduce your dodge bonus by the number of Kg they are...But then you have to take into account a 99, with a cape, using prayer and pots

 

 

 

100+25%+15%. You would have someone who could run around in mage robes and boots of lightness with a 70% chance to dodge every attack.

 

That is hardly a reasonable version of the game, now is it?

 

 

 

You forgot spotted cape and penance gloves :lol:

 

 

 

It would make mages live longer, which they kind of need since they are wearing cloth.

 

 

 

I prefer the classic way though, heavy armour means less damage, cloth armour means more damage.

 

 

 

If other games like the ones I listed can do it then runescape should be no different. I know business have to have U.S.P's but somethings have to be the same.

[bubbyjoe2]

Defence and armor should lower the damage done by a hit, not just decrease the chance of a hit.

[Monkeyanniee]

From 80-99 Defence there hasnt been much of a difference for me.

 

Defence is a skill Jagex really need to clarify or alter, which i hope they are.

[perfetc]

Defence is a skill Jagex really need to clarify or alter, which i hope they are.

 

 

 

They need to alter it.

 

 

 

In it's current state it is illogical and useless.

[KevinsLunchbox]

My view of Defence.

 

 

 

Defence is as some people would say, a slow training skill. It is looked up to by people in Clan Wars looking to tank people. It is also looked down upon by victims of a PJ'er and anyone who has suffered the blindside assault (Getting HP drained by someone who is lower level then you who got lucky for a quick second). Surely Defence in itself is a great skill, with every level gained you get that small percentage of the enemy hitting a 0 or at least a small number. Defence also plays with the armour you wear. Sometimes though like some have mentioned, your armour pretty much gives out and your getting slashed to bits by some person with a rune scimitar.

 

 

 

I do believe Defence is a worthwhile skill that should be trained above Strength and Attack, but I do also agree with the fact that Jagex should rewrite or at least tweek the Defence system they have currently running because it is very unlikely that a person with 99 Defence and wearing full dragon or barrows should get hit a 15,16,and a 14 three times in a row by a person with 80 attack, and like 80 strength.