Skilling against manipulation: A viable solution?

[knight10071]

Price Manipulation is what most people see as the main problem in RuneScape at the moment. Items can be unbuyable for extended periods of time and a lot of the text at w2 is generated by players advertising so-called merchanting groups. Then there is the problem of leaders dumping early, leaving the rest of the group with losses. I regard the last one as a benefit, as this greed may allow us to stop manipulation.

 

 

 

The main reason why manipulation works is the Grand Exchange mechanism. This mechanism moves the new price to the previous day's mean price. It also sells for the price that the first player who wanted to trade the item put in. Because of these two mechanisms, manipulation groups can quite easily trick the system into making it "think" there is a huge demand for a certain item, thereby raising the price.

 

 

 

The major drawback of manipulation, from the point of the manipulator, is the effort needed to get rid of the items at the moment of dumping. Players become increasingly aware of the fact that they should check the GE graphs before trading their precious Godsword for a pile of Karil Crossbows. I have been a manipulator myself, which I regret, but this is in fact the only problem with making money through manipulation. Not all people involved can dump at the exact same time and often it is the case that some people (/leaders) dump earlier than agreed. Manipulation groups lose their members due to money loss in the final stages. This is the main flaw, we, as players could exploit. Now, onto countermeasures.

 

 

 

Naturally, a number of measures from JaGEx end could (and should) be taken. The easiest of these is prohibiting coordinated manipulation by putting it in the rules. This would largely disable communication between manipulators, but would in itself not fix the problem. Any other measures would probably either restrict the economy even more so than it already is, or they would remove all trade limits, which would enable RWT (and subsequently autoers) to return.

 

 

 

Therefore, one of the few solutions that I find viable, is a measure players could take. Manipulation groups thrive on the fact they can simulate a huge demand. Therefore, a large group of players, like TIF, could do the exact opposite thing. We could monitor a couple of manipulation chats and produce whatever item they are buying. The main idea behind this is that further supply is likely to decrease their profits, or increase their losses. As I mentioned before, it requires a lot of effort to get rid of a manipulated item. This way, the smaller players in the groups will lose more than they win and drop out of it. This would decrease their capital, which in turn would increase the effect of our extra supplies. If we coordinate the selling of the produced items in a way where our risks would be minimal, but the effects would max out. eg. Everybody selling their items as close as possible to 9 PM GMT. I think that this might actually work. I'll list things that I thought of as pro's and con's to this solution.

 

 

 

Pro's:

 

- Participants will make money at a low risk

 

- We decrease the effectiveness of manipulation

 

- We show JaGEx how large we think this problem is

 

- We improve the community as a whole and know that we made RS a better place

 

 

 

Con's:

 

- Will not fully wipe out manipulation

 

- Will not work on all items (TT and Barrows items, for one)

 

- May leave participants with a small amount of items which they don't need.

 

 

 

The main thing on which the effectiveness would depend is the participation. If the whole of TIF would participate, I think we may actually be able to take on the larger manipulation groups. If a small part participates, it will not be so effective. If very little to no players participate, it may not even have a visible effect.

 

 

 

Please post your thoughts and criticism (preferably constructive).

[sandycat0]

id try it. largely for the lols when they find out that their item isnt rising, if we do it right. :D

[Sir_Kurity]

Oh my god this should be stickied in general discussion or something.

 

 

 

The TIP-IT anti-manipulator clan!

[Atom Smash40]

ill do it. but what items made by skills are commonly manipulated? pots? not everyone can afford to make 1k sara brews just for the purpose of anti-manipulation :? but this is a good idea

[cexirussian]

Well I for myself took a break in 2006 from runescape, leaving my 2.5m red h'mask and 2 santas on a level 3 account that I created for that solid purpose. When I came back I had to start out with 0gp on my account because I couldn't trade it back and my friend took all my other things. And not to mention what the manipulation clans are doing now is actually illegal in the real world, I say let's bring them down to justice :D

 

 

 

PS: you might also know me as Plaxer X :D

[Alex_Ewan_1]

I'd be up for it as long as you find out what is being merchanted.

[Guest]

Did you stop price manipulating because you were losing money?

[Zamorakshadow]

Making money, and helping pwn thoose manipulators in the process?

 

Go Tif's anti-manipulator clan! :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Wish Jagex would allow mods to mute the noobs advertising Manipulator clans...

[knight10071]

Did you stop price manipulating because you were losing money?

 

 

 

I stopped, mainly because it was too much hassle to get rid of the item, in return for little profit, though I think I lost a bit on at least one item. Why?

[Red_Reaper73]

I'm in.

[Guest]

Did you stop price manipulating because you were losing money?

 

 

 

I stopped, mainly because it was too much hassle to get rid of the item, in return for little profit, though I think I lost a bit on at least one item. Why?

 

 

 

I just tend to wonder these things. From posts I've seen on here, there's usually a motive behind wanting price manipulation to stop, other than 'its wrong'. If you were making the money you'd have hoped for I wonder if you would have posted about this subject.

[knight10071]

Did you stop price manipulating because you were losing money?

 

 

 

I stopped, mainly because it was too much hassle to get rid of the item, in return for little profit, though I think I lost a bit on at least one item. Why?

 

 

 

I just tend to wonder these things. From posts I've seen on here, there's usually a motive behind wanting price manipulation to stop, other than 'its wrong'. If you were making the money you'd have hoped for I wonder if you would have posted about this subject.

 

 

 

Ah, I see. Like the people at the ge spamming: Merchanting Group X are scammers! And I reckon you're right. I might not have posted this if I would have made the money I hoped, simply because I could still be in that group.

[Chicken102]

This is an excellent idea, it would be great if we could get this out of the 'Debate Club' section and into 'General Discussion' where there is a larger base of players. Perhaps even having a thread on RSOF might work, and perhaps Jagex will take notice!! :thumbup: =D>

[knight10071]

The reason that I posted this in the debate club is that I wanted some feedback before actually starting it up. If I think it's time for it, I will open a thread in GD with the practical details. If someone else would like to do it, that would be fine with me too, but please PM me in that case.

[Guest]

At least you've been honest about it. :thumbup:

[Lielac]

I'm in. Totally. :thumbsup: Beating manips at their own game for fun and profit? HELLA YEAH.

[DuckyTheSwan]

I'm in too :thumbsup:

 

 

 

This is a fantastic idea! Anything that can possibly irk price manipulators is good for me :)

[bubbyjoe2]

Sounds like a great idea, I'm all for this. :thumbup:

 

 

 

What needs to be done first, is that the Anti-Manipulator Team should create a clan chat of their own.

 

 

 

Usually, the item that is manipulated is something that cannot be mass produced (E.g. Treasure trail armor) or is already high in demand. Ores are also manipulated often (namely copper and iron)

[Melencholy]

Sounds fun im in if this happens.

[Orioles8]

Did you stop price manipulating because you were losing money?

 

 

 

I stopped, mainly because it was too much hassle to get rid of the item, in return for little profit, though I think I lost a bit on at least one item. Why?

 

 

 

I just tend to wonder these things. From posts I've seen on here, there's usually a motive behind wanting price manipulation to stop, other than 'its wrong'. If you were making the money you'd have hoped for I wonder if you would have posted about this subject.

 

 

 

Not really. Price Manipulation is just a few folks pissing off everyone else by distorting prices, although the real culprit was the removal of free trade and implimentation of the grand exchange. Bring back free trade and price manipulation will be gone by tommorow. (You may now cry about how this will bring back RWT.)

[Zachneap]

technically merch clans can be used to rwt.

[Sumpta]

I'm usually completely oblivious of all things merchanting - I'm one of those DIY girls that always gets laughed at for not spending her time at top efficiency- and even I find that my skilling plans are seriously hampered by the manipulations, so I'd be in for any countermove.

 

 

 

But, call me silly, isn't there the risk that the anti-manip clans will start to do the same the manip clans are doing? A few leaders who sell the resources before the other gatherers, who are still sitting on them, making millions from the price manipulations as they are the only ones to fill in the manip clan's demand, where the others can be left with the resources once the manip clans catch wind of the anti-manips and stop buying because of the risks? Just a thought. As little as I like being a victim of manipulation clans, it'd be an even bigger blow to be a victim of the anti-manipulation guys, especially if it meant losing precious time gathering items to get ripped off by another set of bandits. I may be looking at this the wrong way since I have absolutely no feeling for this merchanting business, so please, do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

Anyway, I do love this idea that the skillers can best the manipulator merchants by giving the leeches more blood than they can handle.

[knight10071]

I'm usually completely oblivious of all things merchanting - I'm one of those DIY girls that always gets laughed at for not spending her time at top efficiency- and even I find that my skilling plans are seriously hampered by the manipulations, so I'd be in for any countermove.

 

 

 

But, call me silly, isn't there the risk that the anti-manip clans will start to do the same the manip clans are doing? A few leaders who sell the resources before the other gatherers, who are still sitting on them, making millions from the price manipulations as they are the only ones to fill in the manip clan's demand, where the others can be left with the resources once the manip clans catch wind of the anti-manips and stop buying because of the risks? Just a thought. As little as I like being a victim of manipulation clans, it'd be an even bigger blow to be a victim of the anti-manipulation guys, especially if it meant losing precious time gathering items to get ripped off by another set of bandits. I may be looking at this the wrong way since I have absolutely no feeling for this merchanting business, so please, do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

Anyway, I do love this idea that the skillers can best the manipulator merchants by giving the leeches more blood than they can handle.

 

 

 

The issue you bring up here is a genuine concern, but the solution to this would be that we say something like, selling every odd day, as close as possible to a certain time. This way ensures that you at the most will be left with 48 hours worth of resources. The power of this idea is that it's a lot of people putting a bit of effort in. Manipulation is the other way around, a (relatively) small group of people inserts a lot of effort.

[jakerules208]

I'm in if I can get members back soon, but one idea could be to randomly start collecting your item, and when you find out its being manipulated to dump it asap

[Orioles8]

I don't even think it has to be an orginized effort. For example, when the prayer pots started getting merchanted upwars, people realized that they could make more money selling them than normal, so there's more people gathering herbs, more people growing ranarr, and all this leads to them dumping more prayer pots on the economy not even to spite the merchanters, but simply because it's profitable. Making the merchanters fail is just an added bonus!