Suicide

[Saru Inc]

Zierro, I think you give humans a lot more credit then they deserve in both the rationale and logic part of the brain. And I, and I'm guessing Dan both agree that when the brain is broken, both those departments are shut down for repairs.

[Zygimantas]

Am I the only one who understands the concept that once you die you lose all emotion, memories, thoughts, etc.? In which case once you are dead its like you were never even born. Yes, others will have known you were alive and will be hurt by your suicide but it really doesn't matter because for YOU its like existence never even occurred at all, and once your dead you will never have any thoughts or emotions towards your suicide causing others pain.

 

This is why it is selfish. Selfish people don't care about others, just themselves.

You are still not thinking. You can care about people all you want, but what causes us to do so? Emotions. But if you are not alive and neither is your brain then you have no emotions. Therefore you can not "care" for people in death.

[Saru Inc]

Am I the only one who understands the concept that once you die you lose all emotion, memories, thoughts, etc.? In which case once you are dead its like you were never even born. Yes, others will have known you were alive and will be hurt by your suicide but it really doesn't matter because for YOU its like existence never even occurred at all, and once your dead you will never have any thoughts or emotions towards your suicide causing others pain.

 

This is why it is selfish. Selfish people don't care about others, just themselves.

You are still not thinking. You can care about people all you want, but what causes us to do so? Emotions. But if you are not alive and neither is your brain then you have no emotions. Therefore you can not "care" for people in death.

 

Becareful of the terminology you are* using Godofjoy. He actually is thinking, he's merely disagreeing with your point of view. Don't call the opposing team fools for simply not being on the same team as them.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Saruman44

[Zierro]

And I, and I'm guessing Dan both agree that when the brain is broken, both those departments are shut down for repairs.

 

I think he was referring to the biological urge to fight off or avoid things that endanger your life rather than rationale and logic:

 

We are hardwired to survive, and to fight for life in the most helpless situation. When the brain stops doing that, why would you blame the person for it?

 

Here's an example of the biological urge to defend your life versus rationality: A deer gets caught in a trap and continuously tries squirming around to get free, even though his legs are broken from the trap and he is going to die within days regardless of if he gets free. The animal's brain is working correctly according to Dan's argument. However, if a human were in that situation, tried pulling the trap apart, noticed he was getting nowhere, and then thought "Why waste the energy? I'm going to rot here no matter what," this is supposedly the brain not working correctly. There's more brainpower being used there than with the deer's case.

 

Note: This isn't an analogy about suicide. It's about the human's will to survive.

 

You are still not thinking. You can care about people all you want, but what causes us to do so? Emotions. But if you are not alive and neither is your brain then you have no emotions. Therefore you can not "care" for people in death.

 

Yeah, in death, which isn't where you'll be making the decision.

 

Don't call the opposing team fools for simply not being on the same team as them.

 

Not even if they signed for Orlando Magic? Woot, what a joke!! \:D/ (Wow, I'm very angry that the Dance Smilie turns into that. [On second thought, I kind of like it...])

[Dupin]

God is a lie. There is no afterlife.

 

 

And why can't atheism be a lie? That's the problem with tif (I'm in no way singling you at Bentomat, I'm talking about all of tif) they are too one sided. They won't even consider the other side, well at least not before they mock it to death. (This goes with absolutely every argument. God, music, movies, culture, literature, people, everything.)

 

I have arrived at atheism through a series of logical conclusions. I didn't elaborate because I didn't want this to become a religion thread -- there's probably one of those already running in OT. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but I find it illogical. I guess the reason I posted that in the first place is that belief in the afterlife drastically changes one's ideas about death.

Because we won't go to prison for falling in love, but we will for fighting and rape. There is no reason for us to get better at resisting love.

 

 

You're kidding, right?

 

How many people go to jail for suicide?

 

Love, Iamdan? I think you, of all people, would know better. I must ask, what exactly do you mean by love? Do you mean the animal instinct that makes you feel attracted to women? Not resisting that would be called rape. Perhaps you mean the agreeable feeling that comes from a happy mutual existence with a fellow human being? There isn't much to resist here.

 

I'm talking about how stupid people get when they're in love.

 

Love hurts us badly, and there's no need for it in our civilization.

 

Love in itself is an irrational concept. Basically, Hollywood and High School have given our animal instincts a title to make them seem more civilized. If a person gets stupid in love, it's because that person was stupid in the first place. We've all been there. The only real fault here would be to not learn from that experience.

[Zygimantas]

 

Yeah, in death, which isn't where you'll be making the decision.

 

Even if someone felt bad about hurting their loved ones while thinking about committing suicide, it would only be logical to conclude that it doesn't matter what happens to their loved ones after they die. Because if you never experience something happening it is the same as if it never did happen, even if in reality it has. The second you die can be perceived as the end of existence as a whole. It sounds selfish but its really not. If you were stuck in darkness with no senses of anything, and no emotion or thought for eternity, wouldn't that seem to be the end of existence?

[Iamdan]

But it has been done before.

Who is to say they would have committed suicide in the first place? Or that they didn't end up doing it later?

 

We, as humans, are also hardwired to think logically and philosophically and this seems to be the most prevalent way of getting to that "solution" of suicide. Coming to that solution might be bad logic, but it is still logic nonetheless. "I am suffering. I want to end my suffering. I know that suicide ends suffering. I want to commit suicide." In this case, the brain part of the equation seems to be working on a more advanced level than the biological reflex to avoid danger.

 

Could you then say that the brain imbalance caused the bad logic? And that otherwise it might have been good logic?

Love hurts us badly, and there's no need for it in our civilization.

Other then to get attracted to someone so we can reproduce right?

 

Love != attraction

[Zygimantas]

If Love=attraction, then don't we need attraction/love in order to reproduce?

[Zierro]

Who is to say they would have committed suicide in the first place? Or that they didn't end up doing it later?

 

I know it's not something you can really "prove", but I doubt you have proof that nobody has ever been talked out of suicide either. All we can really do is make inferences here. Some people feel a lot better about life after talking about their contemplation (or even attempts) of suicide to counselors, family members, or friends. Sometimes it makes them feel good enough to stop having suicidal tendencies after that. Suicide hotlines probably wouldn't exist if they were never successful. Some people even straight up announce that they've been helped, and it's a far stretch to call each and every one of them a liar.

 

As for ending up doing it later, you still would have talked them out of committing suicide at that one point in time. You at least prevented that suicide.

 

But let me get this straight... Are you saying that if someone talks about wanting to commit suicide, no one should bother helping them at all because they've already made up their mind? I've heard that in a lot of cases it's a cry for help.

 

Could you then say that the brain imbalance caused the bad logic? And that otherwise it might have been good logic?

 

That really just comes down to opinion. Just because someone thinks that someone else has utilized bad logic, that doesn't necessarily mean there is an objective fault with their brain.

 

My point was that you use more brainpower contemplating suicide than you do "physically struggling for life".

[Iamdan]

People are ultimately selfish anyway, even if suicide were selfish then it's merely humans being human.

 

Maybe some suicides have been prevented by simply talking them out of it. My point was that it's not a simple matter of sucking it up, and those who call suicide cowardly etc are ignorant.

 

But let me get this straight... Are you saying that if someone talks about wanting to commit suicide, no one should bother helping them at all because they've already made up their mind? I've heard that in a lot of cases it's a cry for help.

Of course people should help. What people shouldn't do is degrade them

 

That really just comes down to opinion. Just because someone thinks that someone else has utilized bad logic, that doesn't necessarily mean there is an objective fault with their brain.

 

If there is an objective fault with their brain, I think utilizing bad logic is much more likely than if their brain was healthy.

 

My point was that you use more brainpower contemplating suicide than you do "physically struggling for life".

I don't see how this conflicts with my point of how going against your hard wiring in your brain must mean there is something wrong with the brain. It requires you to think more and you can use logic yes, but I still think that's where the brain imbalance comes in.

 

If Love=attraction, then don't we need attraction/love in order to reproduce?

 

!= is 'not equals'

 

We need attraction to reproduce, but not love.

 

Well technically we don't need attraction, all we need are orgasms. The attraction helps though.

[Zierro]

Maybe some suicides have been prevented by simply talking them out of it. My point was that it's not a simple matter of sucking it up, and those who call suicide cowardly etc are ignorant.

 

For some, it is a simple matter of sucking it up. I speak from experience. As for it being cowardly, you're running away from your problems instead of facing them. I think cowardly might be too harsh of a word though.

 

Of course people should help. What people shouldn't do is degrade them

 

How are you to ever talk someone out of it if you don't point out how foolish of an idea it is?

 

If there is an objective fault with their brain, I think utilizing bad logic is much more likely than if their brain was healthy.

 

Well of course it's more likely. Something I forgot to bring up earlier though - there is no such thing as a perfect model brain.

 

I don't see how this conflicts with my point of how going against your hard wiring in your brain must mean there is something wrong with the brain. It requires you to think more and you can use logic yes, but I still think that's where the brain imbalance comes in.

 

If two systems that are hardwired into your brain conflict with each other, and one overpowers the other, I just can't possibly see how that implies a fault in your brain. In fact, doesn't that commonly happen amongst human beings? (Especially with the mixing of genetics?)

[das1330]

Well maybe I'm stupid, but I've never believed in stuff like depression, ADHD, and [cabbage] like that. I've always thought it's just the doctor telling you what you want to hear.

 

"Dr. Coleman, my son is stupid and can't sit still."

"Oh, must be ADHD."

"Thanks! That justifies everything!"

 

 

It has been empirically proven that in most cases depression drugs function as nothing more then a placebo, so you are likely right; at least partially. ADD has been chemically identified; but ADHD as a diagnosis remains controversial.

[Saru Inc]

Well maybe I'm stupid, but I've never believed in stuff like depression, ADHD, and [cabbage] like that. I've always thought it's just the doctor telling you what you want to hear.

 

"Dr. Coleman, my son is stupid and can't sit still."

"Oh, must be ADHD."

"Thanks! That justifies everything!"

 

*sigh* must we go through this again?

 

 

There is adhd, there is depression, there is bipolar disorder, OCD, schizoprhenia. These are all PROVED! HOwever, like anything else, people will always look for a scapegoat. Exactly as you said "Im stuppid kant be sitstill!" "ADHD!" "i kant sleep with a spotloght on my face " "OCD!"

 

Still, just because people "abuse" it to shift blame, doesn't mean there are not beyond numerable cases of them. Just not every joe schmo who says he's adhd/ocd actually is. *and dr's can't be trusted either sometimes, one dr said I was schizophrenic because i was happy and sad on the same day. ...... ok.*

[Giordano]

Talk all you guys want, but the fact is there were several people before you in much worse positions who got out of it and completely turned their life around and succeeded in life. If that's not hope enough then I don't know what is.

 

Besides, what do people kill themselves over nowadays?

[polyvoree]

I was suicidal a year ago, huge arguments with my family, break up with my girlfriend who I had been with for a long time, fight at school, suspension. My life was kinda [cabbage]. But whenever I was thinking about doing it, I thought how easy I had it compared to other people..

 

Suicide is still in my head now though to be honest. Call me cowardly / selfish I dont care, because I doubt many people would give a crap whether I was dead or not. Now your probably thinking "He's making us feel sorry for him awww" well no I just had to get this off my chest. There's always one thing holding me back from doing it.

 

Now I'm thinking about posting this or not.................................

 

 

ahh [bleep] it.

[Dupin]

Of course people should help. What people shouldn't do is degrade them

How are you to ever talk someone out of it if you don't point out how foolish of an idea it is?

 

Foolish? I proved suicide as an option logically a few pages ago. I disproved it by saying jumping from "life is meaningless" to "let's destroy it" was illogical, and the beauty in life makes it worth living, but it's possible that a person would not have taken those steps. There is nothing foolish about commiting suicide after reaching this conclusion and deciding that the beauty in life does not hold one's interest for long enough to justify prolonging it.

 

It's the angsty, emotional suicidals who give the choice a bad name. Commiting suicide because of an emotional event or a feeling of loneliness is silly. Luckily, those people who are emotionally unstable enough to get up on the stool rarely have the courage to actually kick it.

 

 

I must say that I truly dislike the average anti-suicide seminar. In addition to the main feeling motivating most of the people who actually care being fear and the fact that it's full of rich white girls looking for something to add to their college applications, the real effect on an emotional suicidal is to deepen his feelings of abandonment.

[Iamdan]

For some, it is a simple matter of sucking it up. I speak from experience. As for it being cowardly, you're running away from your problems instead of facing them. I think cowardly might be too harsh of a word though.

 

I maintain that those who can just suck it up wouldn't have done it in the first place. I speak from experience, and from what I have been told by professionals.

 

How are you to ever talk someone out of it if you don't point out how foolish of an idea it is?

By using tact.

 

Proving their problems can be solved, and that people make their own happiness is a good start.

 

If two systems that are hardwired into your brain conflict with each other, and one overpowers the other, I just can't possibly see how that implies a fault in your brain. In fact, doesn't that commonly happen amongst human beings? (Especially with the mixing of genetics?)

 

What is this second system? Suicidal thoughts?

[Zierro]

I maintain that those who can just suck it up wouldn't have done it in the first place. I speak from experience, and from what I have been told by professionals.

 

That belief is pretty much synonymous to "Nobody ever changes their minds." I speak from experience, that this is not true.

 

Not only that, but some people have attempted suicide, failed, and then have been talked out of having suicidal tendencies. But hey, believe whatever you want.

 

By using tact.

 

Proving their problems can be solved, and that people make their own happiness is a good start.

 

This is exactly my point. Discouraging suicide is the first step.

 

What is this second system? Suicidal thoughts?

 

Yes, the logical thought process that brings you to this "solution".

 

---

 

There is nothing foolish about commiting suicide after reaching this conclusion and deciding that the beauty in life does not hold one's interest for long enough to justify prolonging it.

 

That said, suicide itself is not rational. There is no reason to close the door on this life when we have no other home to go to.

 

Happiness is what makes life worth living. If one is unhappy with life, the logical answer is not suicide, but a search for happiness. According to Aristotle, happiness arises from the development of that trait that we value most. Humanity's outstanding trait is its intellect. Therefore, one can be happy by developing the intellect to its full potential.

 

Bentomat, you really need to make up your mind. Either suicide is the logical solution to having problems with achieving happiness or it isn't.

 

I must say that I truly dislike the average anti-suicide seminar. In addition to the main feeling motivating most of the people who actually care being fear and the fact that it's full of rich white girls looking for something to add to their college applications, the real effect on an emotional suicidal is to deepen his feelings of abandonment.

 

I truly dislike the pro-suicide seminar. By telling them, "it's not their fault ," you're doing the opposite of discouraging it. In fact, you're the ones making them feel more hopeless. I seem to be the only one fighting the idea of giving up on life, and saying that there is hope.

[Dupin]

There is nothing foolish about commiting suicide after reaching this conclusion and deciding that the beauty in life does not hold one's interest for long enough to justify prolonging it.

 

That said, suicide itself is not rational. There is no reason to close the door on this life when we have no other home to go to.

 

Happiness is what makes life worth living. If one is unhappy with life, the logical answer is not suicide, but a search for happiness. According to Aristotle, happiness arises from the development of that trait that we value most. Humanity's outstanding trait is its intellect. Therefore, one can be happy by developing the intellect to its full potential.

 

Bentomat, you really need to make up your mind. Either suicide is the logical solution to having problems with achieving happiness or it isn't.

 

Suicide is a logical option, but not the best one. What I am really trying to say is that not all suicide is foolish.

I must say that I truly dislike the average anti-suicide seminar. In addition to the main feeling motivating most of the people who actually care being fear and the fact that it's full of rich white girls looking for something to add to their college applications, the real effect on an emotional suicidal is to deepen his feelings of abandonment.

 

I truly dislike the pro-suicide seminar. By telling them, "it's not their fault ," you're doing the opposite of discouraging it. In fact, you're the ones making them feel more hopeless. I seem to be the only one fighting the idea of giving up on life, and saying that there is hope.

 

What?

pro-suicide seminar

By seminar I mean the meetings and discussions organized by an irl authority.

it's not their fault

I didn't say anything about faults.

discouraging it

I'm not trying to discourage it. I'm saying that the normal "discouraging" is completely ineffective and is more likely to achieve the opposite result.

there is hope

There is hope for what? Meaning? That's just ridiculous and would be rejected as such.

[Iamdan]

This is exactly my point. Discouraging suicide is the first step.

I don't have a problem with trying to discourage it. It's the 'suicide is weak/cowardly' attitude I've seen throughout this thread that bothers me.

 

Yes, the logical thought process that brings you to this "solution".

People have been through terrible times and not committed suicide, people have been through less and done it. I say the difference is their brain chemistry.

 

You can turn around and say they have a different threshold for suffering and that caused the 'bad logic', however at the end of the day, suicide has been linked to altered brain chemistry. Mental problems are brought about by imbalances in the brain.

[Zierro]

You can turn around and say they have a different threshold for suffering and that caused the 'bad logic', however at the end of the day, suicide has been linked to altered brain chemistry. Mental problems are brought about by imbalances in the brain.

 

You're right - they have. They've also been linked to the point of view of the person (religion, perspective on life/death, self-esteem) which are subject to change when the brain receives certain stimuli (being talked out of it, enlightening influences).

 

---

 

Bento, sorry, I was confusing your points with Dan's.

[Zygimantas]

Dan, are you saying that ALL the people who commit suicide must have chemical imbalances in the brain?

 

If you do, do you think that a person's experiences could cause the imbalance in the first place?

[Iamdan]

Dan, are you saying that ALL the people who commit suicide must have chemical imbalances in the brain?

 

If you do, do you think that a person's experiences could cause the imbalance in the first place?

 

I'd say most of them, and yes.

 

You're right - they have. They've also been linked to the point of view of the person (religion, perspective on life/death, self-esteem) which are subject to change when the brain receives certain stimuli (being talked out of it, enlightening influences).

 

Then where does the weakness and being a coward come in?

[Jernlov]

Depresson - it's not just "feeling sad"; it's a condition where you have literally hit the bottom without an obvious way out of it. Depression of the clinical variety can be especially long-lasting and incapacitating. Unfortunately, "depressed" has become synonymous with "a bit sad/out of it" which really undermines the seriousness of the problem. I would daresay the "we all get depressed sometimes" argument is completely bulls**t and not many people actually experience it properly, thankfully. "Feeling sad" isn't in the DSM-IV as far as I am aware, except as a symptom. It's shocking that people can't grasp the fact that depression is actually a very serious problem and you can't just "man up" and walk away from it. You can act like there's nothing bothering all you as much as you damn well please. It will break you eventually.

 

Sometimes you just can't discourage it [suicide]. A lot of more successful suicides seem to be rather spur-of-the-moment decisions rather than things that have been carefully planned - unless you're fortunate enough to come across your friend when he's about to carry the act out, what are you going to do about it? I'm quite sure we can all agree on the fact that it really is not one of the best causes of action to take; however, when you have been through something life-changingly negative, it can often feel that you have nothing else to live for. Fortunately, some people are lucky enough to pull through and recover. Others can't take living anymore.

 

I agree with Dan - chemical imbalance does play a big part in suicidality. A lot of people get long periods of suicidal ideation yet never act on it, whereas other people will completely snap and carry it out almost instantaneously.

 

Moral or not? I don't think we, as bystanders, are allowed to decide.

[Zierro]

Then where does the weakness and being a coward come in?

 

I said before that those words are a little harsh. It comes down to the idea that we are responsible for what we do, unless you really believe that we are puppets to our biologies and nobody should ever be blamed for anything ever. The collectivity of your biology, experiences, opinions, etc. are all what make up you. In saying, "That guy is a bitter man," even though he went through the horrors of Vietnam, you're still right in saying he's a bitter man.

 

I love suicide debates. It always comes down to playing the blame game and talking about how suicidal people apparently have no control over themselves. (Oh yeah, saying that will make things better.)

 

Suicide is a logical option, but not the best one. What I am really trying to say is that not all suicide is foolish.

 

Of course there are justifiable reasons for committing suicide. But the bad reasons outweigh the good reasons, by far.