Suicide

[Dizzle229]

^ This. Suicide is wrong because of the emotional pain it inflicts on others. If you still want to take your own life while knowing that you're seriously going to [bleep] up your friends and family, then you're a selfish bastard.

 

And that's my two cents.

Isn't it selfish of your family to want you to stay alive while you're suffering?

[TTanT]

Think about it. If everyone were to commit suicide due to sorrow, then a single death would quickly cause the demise of every human on this planet that wasn't insane.

 

So, obviously it's a bad idea for everyone to do it. What makes you so special?

[Zygimantas]

Think about it. If everyone were to commit suicide due to sorrow, then a single death would quickly cause the demise of every human on this planet that wasn't insane.

 

So, obviously it's a bad idea for everyone to do it. What makes you so special?

Why is it a bad idea? Whats so bad about the human race not existing?

[Iamdan]

So, obviously it's a bad idea for everyone to do it. What makes you so special?

 

The brain not working as it should.

 

How [bleep]ing difficult is it to understand?

 

You can tell someone how stupid they are for killing themselves until you run out of breath, but at the end of the day their brain is not working how it should.

[Iamdan]

That's [cabbage]. Everyone is just an object to everyone else. You can know somebodies history, their favourite food, and their deepest fears but you still have relatively no idea who that person is compared to them. You don't know what they think, or how they perceive things.

 

Friends might be sad for a year, close friends and family might be sad for 5, but they all move on. Sure they might have relapses, or wish they were still alive when they think about the person, but they will still go about their daily lives as usual when the grieving finishes.

 

If someone commits suicide, from their point of view they will never 'move on.' They won't go about their daily lives again, ever.

[Zierro]

Yes, others will have known you were alive and will be hurt by your suicide but it really doesn't matter because for YOU its like existence never even occurred at all, and once your dead you will never have any thoughts or emotions towards your suicide causing others pain.

 

A conscious person contemplating suicide will be faced with the dilemma, "Should I make my family suffer or not?" It is relevant to you at the time of making that choice. By pointing a gun at yourself and pulling the trigger, you just consciously made the choice to cause anyone who cared about you to suffer. Also, how do you know what happens when you die?

 

Isn't it selfish of your family to want you to stay alive while you're suffering?

 

Yeah, yeah, everything we do is based off of self-interest. Which one do you think is more selfish though? Not wanting to see a loved one's dead body and deal with the loss of someone you cared for, or not wanting to deal with your depression? (Don't forget that people have been depressed for some of the most ridiculous reasons, such as losing their Runescape accounts.) Unless their life scenario they have to face is really that dark, the vast majority of suicides are unwarranted, sometimes even ridiculous.

 

You can tell someone how stupid they are for killing themselves until you run out of breath, but at the end of the day their brain is not working how it should.

 

So basically humans aren't accountable for anything they do because it's their brain's fault?

 

Friends might be sad for a year, close friends and family might be sad for 5, but they all move on. Sure they might have relapses, or wish they were still alive when they think about the person, but they will still go about their daily lives as usual when the grieving finishes.

 

If someone commits suicide, from their point of view they will never 'move on.' They won't go about their daily lives again, ever.

 

Way to pick and choose who can and cannot "move on", especially after bringing up the point that you can't really know the way someone thinks or perceives things.

[Saru Inc]

Saru, not all cases of suicide or attempted suicide are due to chemical imbalances in the brain. A sizable chunk, definitely, but far from even a slight majority. People who think that anything (even oblivion) would be better than the living Hell-hole that is their life are very liable to think about doing it. Anything that puts extreme stress on someone for longer than a few days (ESPECIALLY if there's no end in sight from their perspective) could potentially cause this sort of reaction. Just popping pills and strapping people to beds isn't going to help. Perhaps finding the social reason for this would do the trick?

 

Ok and here's the problem. As Iamdan posted correctly earlier, the Human race has been given an innate unstoppable will to survive. People will try keeping their head above water in the middle of a hurricane in the atlantic ocean, search for water in the middle of the hottest desert. Even when there is no reason at all for them to have hope in keeping their head above water, or even finding water, it is hard wired into all of our brains to at least try. And that is why me and Dan say it's chemical. Because sometihng isn't making the brain try to survive, but instead just give up. Which shouldn't be in its programming. inb4 "who says it should be in its programming?"

 

I personally don't have a problem with it. If somebody wants to kill themself, I say let 'em.

 

 

Try saying that if it was your own child. Pwned.

 

I wouldn't force my child to live if they didn't want to. That's just cruel. "Pwned."

 

You guys, it's abc1230. what did you expect him to say.

 

Wanting to die, while understandable, is stupid. Imagine how many people would be upset, angry, destroyed by your death if you were to kill yourself. Are there really no other options that you have to do that? Really?

 

That only makes sense if you believe in an afterlife. I don't, and therefore i believe that when you die you are basically well, dead, and you go brain dead. So it does not matter if you cause pain for everyone around you because you will not be there to experience it anyway. Existence is only relative to ourselves. If we do not exist then nothing exists.

 

Ok you keep on going on and on about this afterlife experience that apparently only you know everything baout? Wrong, you are just as blind as everyone else, and just won't admit it. YOu have no idea what is in the after life *or lack thereof* no one does. I believe we will go to heaven or hell, but that is my opinion. It's your OPINION that we all just dissipate. Don't try to smear an opinion with fact covered reasoning, we'll still see that it's an opinion. And what they are saying to begin with, is not that they disagree with the effect of dying *which they even told you that* but that while you're still alive, you WILL know the pain it will cause them. Just because you can't comprehend what they are saying, doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

 

I personally am on the table of suicide. I don't think it should be allowed, but also, I don't think people should be forced to live. But let us all note, that the vast vast majority of emos or so and so who are like "satan swallow me now i want to die" won't ever actually kill themselves. While suicide can be (and of course has been a lot) premeditated (premeditated meaning weeks and weeks in advance) most likely they decide within a week, or sometimes within a day, or even 5 minutes. But usually it's a freak occurrence of the brain. Also, however I believe that even if you kill yourself, you will still go to heaven or hell, depending on where you are going to go if you had died not by self immolation.

 

Edit:

 

Zierro, no. We are not saying the brain is never responsible, however it honestly a lot of times is the main factor. Now, subject has conduct disorder and or psychopathy, then the brain is at fault. But if the chemicals are saying "im depressed ima go shoot up a bank." ya... no. That's still the person, they decided to act on it. I am simply separating suicide as a special event.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Saruman44

[Iamdan]

You can tell someone how stupid they are for killing themselves until you run out of breath, but at the end of the day their brain is not working how it should.

 

So basically humans aren't accountable for anything they do because it's their brain's fault?

 

If it's not the brain's fault, what controls our actions exactly?

 

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity_defense

 

Way to pick and choose who can and cannot "move on", especially after bringing up the point that you can't really know the way someone thinks or perceives things.

 

If people were a wreck for the rest of their lives when a loved one died then the world would be a lot different. I don't need to know the way someone things to know that people can move on.

[The Observer]

I understand this on a personal level because I have been there. Not trying to be rude or anything, but if you haven't experienced it, you will never understand what it is like. You just have to find something you like and try to push through it, although it's easier said than done.

[Iamdan]

if you haven't experienced it, you will never understand what it is like.

 

This. Yet people still act like they do.

[Zygimantas]

 

Ok you keep on going on and on about this afterlife experience that apparently only you know everything baout? Wrong, you are just as blind as everyone else, and just won't admit it. YOu have no idea what is in the after life *or lack thereof* no one does. I believe we will go to heaven or hell, but that is my opinion. It's your OPINION that we all just dissipate. Don't try to smear an opinion with fact covered reasoning, we'll still see that it's an opinion. And what they are saying to begin with, is not that they disagree with the effect of dying *which they even told you that* but that while you're still alive, you WILL know the pain it will cause them. Just because you can't comprehend what they are saying, doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

 

while you're still alive

 

alive

 

But thats exactly my point, after you die you wouldn't feel it anymore. So its illogical that someone who does not believe in an afterlife would not commit suicide only because they are afraid to hurt others.

 

And yes, it is an opinion, but a logical one.

[Zierro]

If it's not the brain's fault, what controls our actions exactly?

 

We do. By saying, "their brain made them do it," you are separating the 'brain' entity from the 'self' entity. By doing that, you're pretty much saying nothing is ever our fault, nobody should ever be to blame, nobody should ever feel proud, etc. Basically, society breaks down if everybody believed that they were a puppet with no control over their actions. "It was not them - it was their brain!"

 

If people were a wreck for the rest of their lives when a loved one died then the world would be a lot different. I don't need to know the way someone things to know that people can move on.

 

I know somebody who had a suicide in the family, and it still haunts them frequently. Also, there's been people who've committed suicide because someone they cared about has committed suicide first. What's your take on "moving on" for them?

 

Now, subject has conduct disorder and or psychopathy, then the brain is at fault. But if the chemicals are saying "im depressed ima go shoot up a bank." ya... no. That's still the person, they decided to act on it. I am simply separating suicide as a special event.

 

I understand that the composition of our brains can cause us to have certain predispositions. However, our bodies do not go on autopilot, grab the closest knife, and start stabbing at your heart. (It might have happened once or twice, but it's definitely not the cause of the vast majority of suicides.) It's the difference between uncontrollable thoughts racing through our minds and uncontrollable actions emitting from our bodies. Suicides are usually contemplated by the individual, not caused by body spasms.

 

By the way, I don't see how this line magically appears when dealing with suicide, but not homicides.

[Dupin]

God is a lie. There is no afterlife.

 

Nothing you do could possibly make any difference in this world. If you do something wierd, you could perhaps be posted about for a week on a forum full of pimply teenagers pretending to be overage. If you do something important, you could be in a history book 100 years later, but when our modern civilizations have fallen, you will be forgotten. Humanity itself is completely unimportant relative to the entire universe. If you live a successful life with a happy family, you could live on in the minds of your children and grandchildren. But what about when they die? The most you would be is a name on a family tree.

 

If this is the only life, and it is nothing, then who are you to prevent another from ending the monotony and turmoil of life?

 

 

That said, suicide itself is not rational. There is no reason to close the door on this life when we have no other home to go to.

 

Happiness is what makes life worth living. If one is unhappy with life, the logical answer is not suicide, but a search for happiness. According to Aristotle, happiness arises from the development of that trait that we value most. Humanity's outstanding trait is its intellect. Therefore, one can be happy by developing the intellect to its full potential.

[Iamdan]

We do. By saying, "their brain made them do it," you are separating the 'brain' entity from the 'self' entity. By doing that, you're pretty much saying nothing is ever our fault, nobody should ever be to blame, nobody should ever feel proud, etc. Basically, society breaks down if everybody believed that they were a puppet with no control over their actions. "It was not them - it was their brain!"

 

You've missed my point though. You can't reason somebody out of suicide. Telling them it's selfish and weak won't do anything, because their brain isn't functioning properly. It's not about blaming anyone. Would you blame someone with a learning disability, for not learning well?

 

We are hardwired to survive, and to fight for life in the most helpless situation. When the brain stops doing that, why would you blame the person for it?

 

I know somebody who had a suicide in the family, and it still haunts them frequently. Also, there's been people who've committed suicide because someone they cared about has committed suicide first. What's your take on "moving on" for them?

I can understand how the suicide still effects them, however I'm sure they are still a functioning member of society. Also, I still stand by what I said before about how everyone is really only an object to everyone else. Someone will value their own life more than someone else's, unless their brain chemistry effects that. From their point of view, the suffering the victim would have gone through over the years would be much greater than that inflicted on loved ones.

 

It's also a double standard to blame someone for causing a suicide by committing suicide.

[Dupin]

The chemical argument is ridiculous. If we, as males, acted upon the chemicals in our brain, there would be constant rape and fights for superiority. Instinct is irrational. Humanity has evolved to be able to resist that irrationality. This is what the common man calls "civilized".

[Iamdan]

The chemical argument is ridiculous. If we, as males, acted upon the chemicals in our brain, there would be constant rape and fights for superiority. Instinct is irrational. Humanity has evolved to be able to resist that irrationality. This is what the common man calls "civilized".

There are still some things we can't resist. Love for example.

[Zygimantas]

The chemical argument is ridiculous. If we, as males, acted upon the chemicals in our brain, there would be constant rape and fights for superiority. Instinct is irrational. Humanity has evolved to be able to resist that irrationality. This is what the common man calls "civilized".

There are still some things we can't resist. Love for example.

Because we won't go to prison for falling in love, but we will for fighting and rape. There is no reason for us to get better at resisting love.

[Dupin]

The chemical argument is ridiculous. If we, as males, acted upon the chemicals in our brain, there would be constant rape and fights for superiority. Instinct is irrational. Humanity has evolved to be able to resist that irrationality. This is what the common man calls "civilized".

There are still some things we can't resist. Love for example.

Love, Iamdan? I think you, of all people, would know better. I must ask, what exactly do you mean by love? Do you mean the animal instinct that makes you feel attracted to women? Not resisting that would be called rape. Perhaps you mean the agreeable feeling that comes from a happy mutual existence with a fellow human being? There isn't much to resist here.

 

Luckily, the urge to live is not one of those irresistable instincts.

[Saru Inc]

 

Ok you keep on going on and on about this afterlife experience that apparently only you know everything baout? Wrong, you are just as blind as everyone else, and just won't admit it. YOu have no idea what is in the after life *or lack thereof* no one does. I believe we will go to heaven or hell, but that is my opinion. It's your OPINION that we all just dissipate. Don't try to smear an opinion with fact covered reasoning, we'll still see that it's an opinion. And what they are saying to begin with, is not that they disagree with the effect of dying *which they even told you that* but that while you're still alive, you WILL know the pain it will cause them. Just because you can't comprehend what they are saying, doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

 

while you're still alive

 

alive

 

But thats exactly my point, after you die you wouldn't feel it anymore. So its illogical that someone who does not believe in an afterlife would not commit suicide only because they are afraid to hurt others.

 

And yes, it is an opinion, but a logical one.

 

But heres the problem, most humans are not logical, or rational. But I wouldn't agree with that statement regardless.

 

God is a lie. There is no afterlife.

 

 

And why can't atheism be a lie? That's the problem with tif (I'm in no way singling you at Bentomat, I'm talking about all of tif) they are too one sided. They won't even consider the other side, well at least not before they mock it to death. (This goes with absolutely every argument. God, music, movies, culture, literature, people, everything.)

[Iamdan]

Because we won't go to prison for falling in love, but we will for fighting and rape. There is no reason for us to get better at resisting love.

 

 

You're kidding, right?

 

How many people go to jail for suicide?

 

Love, Iamdan? I think you, of all people, would know better. I must ask, what exactly do you mean by love? Do you mean the animal instinct that makes you feel attracted to women? Not resisting that would be called rape. Perhaps you mean the agreeable feeling that comes from a happy mutual existence with a fellow human being? There isn't much to resist here.

 

I'm talking about how stupid people get when they're in love.

 

Love hurts us badly, and there's no need for it in our civilization.

[Zygimantas]

 

God is a lie. There is no afterlife.

 

 

And why can't atheism be a lie? That's the problem with tif (I'm in no way singling you at Bentomat, I'm talking about all of tif) they are too one sided. They won't even consider the other side, well at least not before they mock it to death. (This goes with absolutely every argument. God, music, movies, culture, literature, people, everything.)

How do you know he hasn't considered the other side, he probably has considered it, and then discarded it.

[Saru Inc]

And thats why I said I wasn't singling him out. His post merely reminded me of many other times where people were so hard headed they wouldn't be able to open their minds without breaking them. Like a rock.

[Zierro]

You can't reason somebody out of suicide.

 

But it has been done before.

 

Telling them it's selfish and weak won't do anything, because their brain isn't functioning properly.

 

Brains react to certain stimuli in certain ways. Of course some people won't be swayed, and some might even get worse, but there are certain cases where that very thing you just said has been successful about changing people's minds about suicide.

 

Would you blame someone with a learning disability, for not learning well?

 

It's a whole different ballpark though. Having a concept go over your head isn't really a "choice" or "action" that you "do" anymore than having a bird fly over you is.

 

We are hardwired to survive, and to fight for life in the most helpless situation. When the brain stops doing that, why would you blame the person for it?

 

We, as humans, are also hardwired to think logically and philosophically and this seems to be the most prevalent way of getting to that "solution" of suicide. Coming to that solution might be bad logic, but it is still logic nonetheless. "I am suffering. I want to end my suffering. I know that suicide ends suffering. I want to commit suicide." In this case, the brain part of the equation seems to be working on a more advanced level than the biological reflex to avoid danger.

[K4ylan]

Am I the only one who understands the concept that once you die you lose all emotion, memories, thoughts, etc.? In which case once you are dead its like you were never even born. Yes, others will have known you were alive and will be hurt by your suicide but it really doesn't matter because for YOU its like existence never even occurred at all, and once your dead you will never have any thoughts or emotions towards your suicide causing others pain.

 

This is why it is selfish. Selfish people don't care about others, just themselves.

[Zygimantas]

Love hurts us badly, and there's no need for it in our civilization.

Other then to get attracted to someone so we can reproduce right?