Ice strykerwyrms and the removal of the Fire cape requirement

[Me_Hate_Libs]

And Ez, I don't think you'll be able to buy tasks, just the ability to get this one task if you already have the level to kill it.

 

It starts with this. "Just the ability to get this one task". People who have 85 slayer will do all the things you said: Critcizing, complaining, kvetching, bemoaning, griping, moaning, wailing, disagreeing and disapproving until they can have demons assigned to them by sacrificing a few slayer points....... Though actually this isn't a good example as they're campable....... Hmmm..... Jungle/desert Strykewyrms? Basically any monster that HAS to be task assigned to kill will be moaned about until it's put on this list. After that point what will the point in slayer be? You can get the tasks if you have the levels, and you can camp the others when you have the level..... The what will slayer actually achieve? Nothing really. At 85 I can see people going "right then, that's it." *camping* And then just going to Soul Wars or something to get it up quickly.

They have managed to create an amazing piece of content then destroy it a few weeks later. =D> I wasn't sure if they could do it; but my God they showed me.

 

Okay, I'll pose this question to you seeing as how you're not on MSN. Now do you think that the whiners got what they wanted bwecause they were whining, or do you think it is possible that the whiners got what they wanted by a coincidence because some people had a legitimate issue with the Fire cape?

 

I had a little talk prior to this with a Mod friend of mine that I've know for years. I related my personal issue with it due to my condition. I wasn't whining nor was I asking it to be changed. At that point, their were no plans to alter it. i happen to know I was part of the "feedback" that resulted in the compromise.

[langer]

Reading through the post on the RSOF by Mod Chris L, it seems like it's going to be a highly glitch update....... You can use points to get a task? To me that calls out that people will go "right pay for one now" *does task* *Does another task (so that the whole masters can't assign same monster twice thing isn't a pain)* *goes back and pays for another*

This now makes me think they're going to kill off slayer. With this technical buying of the skill using points I wouldn't be surprised to see people on RSOF Critcizing, complaining, kvetching, bemoaning, griping, moaning, wailing, disagreeing and disapproving about it until they can have say Abyssal Demons put on this list of "buyable tasks" Then there could be more Critcizing, complaining, kvetching, bemoaning, griping, moaning, wailing, disagreeing and disapproving if it's a high value of slayer points because it'll eat into peoples profits/stop them cancelling/blocking tasks.

 

This to me is one of Jagex's worst choices to date. So much so, ima actually walk to Sainsburys because A. I'm hungry, and B. It's half in disgust of reading about the update on my computer.

 

You have it all wrong. The compromise will not make the player spend slayer points to buy a task from the master slayer. It will buy the ability to get ice Strykewyrms as a random task - adding it to the list of possible task (much like completing a quest sometimes adds a slayer monster to your list).

[Soma2035]

Reading through the post on the RSOF by Mod Chris L, it seems like it's going to be a highly glitch update....... You can use points to get a task? To me that calls out that people will go "right pay for one now" *does task* *Does another task (so that the whole masters can't assign same monster twice thing isn't a pain)* *goes back and pays for another*

This now makes me think they're going to kill off slayer. With this technical buying of the skill using points I wouldn't be surprised to see people on RSOF Critcizing, complaining, kvetching, bemoaning, griping, moaning, wailing, disagreeing and disapproving about it until they can have say Abyssal Demons put on this list of "buyable tasks" Then there could be more Critcizing, complaining, kvetching, bemoaning, griping, moaning, wailing, disagreeing and disapproving if it's a high value of slayer points because it'll eat into peoples profits/stop them cancelling/blocking tasks.

 

This to me is one of Jagex's worst choices to date. So much so, ima actually walk to Sainsburys because A. I'm hungry, and B. It's half in disgust of reading about the update on my computer.

 

You have it all wrong. The compromise will not make the player spend slayer points to buy a task from the master slayer. It will buy the ability to get ice Strykewyrms as a random task - adding it to the list of possible task (much like completing a quest sometimes adds a slayer monster to your list).

 

This is part of why I hate this, Jagex's proposed compromise is very ambiguous and leaves a lot of room for interpretation...

 

Also, I reached 93 Slayer last night, and during my rush towards it, I completed 4 Jad tasks (with the proper set up, despite my poor reflexes and lousy connection I'm currently 5-0 against Jad with five Fire Capes). However, if the +4 damage isn't doubled by Fire magic, I don't think I'll use the Fire Cape there.

 

Fire Cape is +1 Magic, +2 Prayer

Ardougne Cloak is +6 Magic, +6 Prayer

Guthix / Zamorak / Saradomin Capes are +10 Magic

Red / Blue Capes are +12 Prayer

 

The best way of killing them so far is to pray and use magic. When your max hit with Fire Surge is already 86, adding another 4 points doesn't at all justify sacrificing up to +10 prayer and/or up to +10 magic attack.

[Demario]

i dont agree with you.. if everything is easy then you get bored from runescape easily

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Reading through the post on the RSOF by Mod Chris L, it seems like it's going to be a highly glitch update....... You can use points to get a task? To me that calls out that people will go "right pay for one now" *does task* *Does another task (so that the whole masters can't assign same monster twice thing isn't a pain)* *goes back and pays for another*

This now makes me think they're going to kill off slayer. With this technical buying of the skill using points I wouldn't be surprised to see people on RSOF Critcizing, complaining, kvetching, bemoaning, griping, moaning, wailing, disagreeing and disapproving about it until they can have say Abyssal Demons put on this list of "buyable tasks" Then there could be more Critcizing, complaining, kvetching, bemoaning, griping, moaning, wailing, disagreeing and disapproving if it's a high value of slayer points because it'll eat into peoples profits/stop them cancelling/blocking tasks.

 

This to me is one of Jagex's worst choices to date. So much so, ima actually walk to Sainsburys because A. I'm hungry, and B. It's half in disgust of reading about the update on my computer.

 

You have it all wrong. The compromise will not make the player spend slayer points to buy a task from the master slayer. It will buy the ability to get ice Strykewyrms as a random task - adding it to the list of possible task (much like completing a quest sometimes adds a slayer monster to your list).

 

This is part of why I hate this, Jagex's proposed compromise is very ambiguous and leaves a lot of room for interpretation...

 

Also, I reached 93 Slayer last night, and during my rush towards it, I completed 4 Jad tasks (with the proper set up, despite my poor reflexes and lousy connection I'm currently 5-0 against Jad with five Fire Capes). However, if the +4 damage isn't doubled by Fire magic, I don't think I'll use the Fire Cape there.

 

Fire Cape is +1 Magic, +2 Prayer

Ardougne Cloak is +6 Magic, +6 Prayer

Guthix / Zamorak / Saradomin Capes are +10 Magic

Red / Blue Capes are +12 Prayer

 

The best way of killing them so far is to pray and use magic. When your max hit with Fire Surge is already 86, adding another 4 points doesn't at all justify sacrificing up to +10 prayer and/or up to +10 magic attack.

 

so max hit with fire surge is about 90 damage at the moment

average damage of 45 per hit

+4 would boost it by about 10% to 49

 

+10 magic i don't consider worth it, because from what i hear, fire surge hits the wyrms pretty accurately as it is

 

so in staff of light and other gear the prayer bonus is +22 with soul wars cape

+12 with fire cape

 

fire cape drains 1.4x slower

soul wars cape drains 1.7x slower

 

your kill rate is upped by about 10% due to the fire cape, so the fire cape is more like 1.5x if you're counting prayer consumed per kill

so anyways at +0 prayer, you lose 1 ppoint per 3 seconds using pro mage

 

so lets say it takes an hour to slay 200 ice wyrms with a soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.7 = 700 prayer points for 200 kills in an hour with soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.5 = 860 prayer points for 220 kills in an hour with a firecape

OR 780 prayer points for 200 kills in 55 minutes

 

so 80 extra prayer points for 200 kills = ~2.5 doses of prayer potion = 10k gp

 

 

10k gp extra cost to save yourself 5 minutes

 

you'd have to make over 120k gp/hour in order to justify using a fire cape over a soul wars cape @ ice wyrms ASSUMING YOU ONLY GET +4 DAMAGE BONUS like you stated

 

fire cape > soul wars cape

[langer]

Nice analysis Morionic, I'm gonna keep that in mind next time I get an Ice wyrms task.

 

@ Soma: That compromise is bound to be misinterpreted until it gets implemented and explained in an update.

[Soma2035]

so max hit with fire surge is about 90 damage at the moment

average damage of 45 per hit

+4 would boost it by about 10% to 49

 

+10 magic i don't consider worth it, because from what i hear, fire surge hits the wyrms pretty accurately as it is

 

so in staff of light and other gear the prayer bonus is +22 with soul wars cape

+12 with fire cape

 

fire cape drains 1.4x slower

soul wars cape drains 1.7x slower

 

your kill rate is upped by about 10% due to the fire cape, so the fire cape is more like 1.5x if you're counting prayer consumed per kill

so anyways at +0 prayer, you lose 1 ppoint per 3 seconds using pro mage

 

so lets say it takes an hour to slay 200 ice wyrms with a soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.7 = 700 prayer points for 200 kills in an hour with soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.5 = 860 prayer points for 220 kills in an hour with a firecape

OR 780 prayer points for 200 kills in 55 minutes

 

so 80 extra prayer points for 200 kills = ~2.5 doses of prayer potion = 10k gp

 

 

10k gp extra cost to save yourself 5 minutes

 

you'd have to make over 120k gp/hour in order to justify using a fire cape over a soul wars cape @ ice wyrms ASSUMING YOU ONLY GET +4 DAMAGE BONUS like you stated

 

fire cape > soul wars cape

 

I think you're overlooking quite a bit of information there. Salarin the Twisted is perhaps the best example of this - every cast of Fire Strike does 12 damage. He has 70 HP. Let's just say it was possible to increase this to 13 damage. This is an 8% increase in damage.

 

How many casts will it take to kill Salarin with Fire Strikes? 6. How many casts will it take to kill Salarin with a 13 damage spell? 6. This isn't exactly the same situation since damage against Salarin with Strike spells are at a set number, but you can do something similar with average damage.

 

Fire Surge is expected to inflict 43 damage on average. At 300 Hitpoints, that's nearly 7 casts per kill, meaning your 7th cast is expected to kill the Wyrm if you don't miss. Now, add 4 points of damage onto each of the first 6 hits. This adds up to 24, barely half of the expected average hit. This won't usually save you a cast. In other words, maybe once every few kills, you'll save one cast, but not many.

 

Meanwhile, you have to remember that kill speed is only one of the factors affecting the kills / hour rate. Firstly, remember that after every kill, you need to retrieve the loot, run to the nearest Strykewyrm, stomp, and wait for the animation to end. When each kill only takes 7 casts on average, the 5 or so seconds spent between kills composes a significant amount of the time you spend at Strykewyrms.

 

Finally, we have a living example of the Fire Cape effect at Kuradel's Dungeon in the Ferocious Ring. Like I said, I've done quite a bit of slayer since the Strykewyrms have been released, and I've noticed that weapons that are slow and hard hitting don't really benefit much from the Ferocious Ring. The weapon that indisputably benefits the most is the Dragon Claws, with the special attack inflicting an additional 16 damage, at ~2 seconds per attack. Weapons like the Abyssal Whip improve significantly, but when I slayed side-by-side with a friend using an Armadyl Godsword, the gap between us was noticeably larger than it is normally (Whip normally outperforms Armadyl Godsword during Slayer, but in this case, the improvement was even more visible).

 

Armadyl Godsword attacks roughly 20 times per minute, the same speed as general combat spell-casting.

 

Of course, if the +4 damage is doubled, that changes the story entirely, as +8 damage is much more significant, especially with the Strykewyrms having high hitpoints. Which is my complaint, Jagex isn't very clear about this coming update at all. They've held back on it, probably waiting for more feedback, but how can we give accurate feedback without knowing the specifics? Namely, how many slayer points will it cost? I've gone from 88 to 93 Slayer since Strykewyrms were released and earned over 2.5K points... and this is despite other things going on in my life (granted, I've been told by many that the way I slay results in much faster points and XP). Is this an ability to kill Strykewyrms without a Fire Cape, or an ability to get Strykewyrm tasks and anyone can kill them without the Fire Cape? Is the +4 damage doubled? Etc.

 

Nice analysis Morionic, I'm gonna keep that in mind next time I get an Ice wyrms task.

 

@ Soma: That compromise is bound to be misinterpreted until it gets implemented and explained in an update.

 

Would it have killed them to tell us how many points they were thinking it would cost? Or whether those with Fire Capes need to pay to kill the Ice Strykewyrms capeless?

[Me_Hate_Libs]

so max hit with fire surge is about 90 damage at the moment

average damage of 45 per hit

+4 would boost it by about 10% to 49

 

+10 magic i don't consider worth it, because from what i hear, fire surge hits the wyrms pretty accurately as it is

 

so in staff of light and other gear the prayer bonus is +22 with soul wars cape

+12 with fire cape

 

fire cape drains 1.4x slower

soul wars cape drains 1.7x slower

 

your kill rate is upped by about 10% due to the fire cape, so the fire cape is more like 1.5x if you're counting prayer consumed per kill

so anyways at +0 prayer, you lose 1 ppoint per 3 seconds using pro mage

 

so lets say it takes an hour to slay 200 ice wyrms with a soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.7 = 700 prayer points for 200 kills in an hour with soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.5 = 860 prayer points for 220 kills in an hour with a firecape

OR 780 prayer points for 200 kills in 55 minutes

 

so 80 extra prayer points for 200 kills = ~2.5 doses of prayer potion = 10k gp

 

 

10k gp extra cost to save yourself 5 minutes

 

you'd have to make over 120k gp/hour in order to justify using a fire cape over a soul wars cape @ ice wyrms ASSUMING YOU ONLY GET +4 DAMAGE BONUS like you stated

 

fire cape > soul wars cape

 

I think you're overlooking quite a bit of information there. Salarin the Twisted is perhaps the best example of this - every cast of Fire Strike does 12 damage. He has 70 HP. Let's just say it was possible to increase this to 13 damage. This is an 8% increase in damage.

 

How many casts will it take to kill Salarin with Fire Strikes? 6. How many casts will it take to kill Salarin with a 13 damage spell? 6. This isn't exactly the same situation since damage against Salarin with Strike spells are at a set number, but you can do something similar with average damage.

 

Fire Surge is expected to inflict 43 damage on average. At 300 Hitpoints, that's nearly 7 casts per kill, meaning your 7th cast is expected to kill the Wyrm if you don't miss. Now, add 4 points of damage onto each of the first 6 hits. This adds up to 24, barely half of the expected average hit. This won't usually save you a cast. In other words, maybe once every few kills, you'll save one cast, but not many.

 

Meanwhile, you have to remember that kill speed is only one of the factors affecting the kills / hour rate. Firstly, remember that after every kill, you need to retrieve the loot, run to the nearest Strykewyrm, stomp, and wait for the animation to end. When each kill only takes 7 casts on average, the 5 or so seconds spent between kills composes a significant amount of the time you spend at Strykewyrms.

 

Finally, we have a living example of the Fire Cape effect at Kuradel's Dungeon in the Ferocious Ring. Like I said, I've done quite a bit of slayer since the Strykewyrms have been released, and I've noticed that weapons that are slow and hard hitting don't really benefit much from the Ferocious Ring. The weapon that indisputably benefits the most is the Dragon Claws, with the special attack inflicting an additional 16 damage, at ~2 seconds per attack. Weapons like the Abyssal Whip improve significantly, but when I slayed side-by-side with a friend using an Armadyl Godsword, the gap between us was noticeably larger than it is normally (Whip normally outperforms Armadyl Godsword during Slayer, but in this case, the improvement was even more visible).

 

Armadyl Godsword attacks roughly 20 times per minute, the same speed as general combat spell-casting.

 

Of course, if the +4 damage is doubled, that changes the story entirely, as +8 damage is much more significant, especially with the Strykewyrms having high hitpoints. Which is my complaint, Jagex isn't very clear about this coming update at all. They've held back on it, probably waiting for more feedback, but how can we give accurate feedback without knowing the specifics? Namely, how many slayer points will it cost? I've gone from 88 to 93 Slayer since Strykewyrms were released and earned over 2.5K points... and this is despite other things going on in my life (granted, I've been told by many that the way I slay results in much faster points and XP). Is this an ability to kill Strykewyrms without a Fire Cape, or an ability to get Strykewyrm tasks and anyone can kill them without the Fire Cape? Is the +4 damage doubled? Etc.

 

Nice analysis Morionic, I'm gonna keep that in mind next time I get an Ice wyrms task.

 

@ Soma: That compromise is bound to be misinterpreted until it gets implemented and explained in an update.

 

Would it have killed them to tell us how many points they were thinking it would cost? Or whether those with Fire Capes need to pay to kill the Ice Strykewyrms capeless?

 

I dunno how this turned into about capes and damage, but you people have seriously too much time on your hands to be going through all this.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

[spoiler=Quotes]

so max hit with fire surge is about 90 damage at the moment

average damage of 45 per hit

+4 would boost it by about 10% to 49

 

+10 magic i don't consider worth it, because from what i hear, fire surge hits the wyrms pretty accurately as it is

 

so in staff of light and other gear the prayer bonus is +22 with soul wars cape

+12 with fire cape

 

fire cape drains 1.4x slower

soul wars cape drains 1.7x slower

 

your kill rate is upped by about 10% due to the fire cape, so the fire cape is more like 1.5x if you're counting prayer consumed per kill

so anyways at +0 prayer, you lose 1 ppoint per 3 seconds using pro mage

 

so lets say it takes an hour to slay 200 ice wyrms with a soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.7 = 700 prayer points for 200 kills in an hour with soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.5 = 860 prayer points for 220 kills in an hour with a firecape

OR 780 prayer points for 200 kills in 55 minutes

 

so 80 extra prayer points for 200 kills = ~2.5 doses of prayer potion = 10k gp

 

 

10k gp extra cost to save yourself 5 minutes

 

you'd have to make over 120k gp/hour in order to justify using a fire cape over a soul wars cape @ ice wyrms ASSUMING YOU ONLY GET +4 DAMAGE BONUS like you stated

 

fire cape > soul wars cape

 

I think you're overlooking quite a bit of information there. Salarin the Twisted is perhaps the best example of this - every cast of Fire Strike does 12 damage. He has 70 HP. Let's just say it was possible to increase this to 13 damage. This is an 8% increase in damage.

 

How many casts will it take to kill Salarin with Fire Strikes? 6. How many casts will it take to kill Salarin with a 13 damage spell? 6. This isn't exactly the same situation since damage against Salarin with Strike spells are at a set number, but you can do something similar with average damage.

 

Fire Surge is expected to inflict 43 damage on average. At 300 Hitpoints, that's nearly 7 casts per kill, meaning your 7th cast is expected to kill the Wyrm if you don't miss. Now, add 4 points of damage onto each of the first 6 hits. This adds up to 24, barely half of the expected average hit. This won't usually save you a cast. In other words, maybe once every few kills, you'll save one cast, but not many.

 

Meanwhile, you have to remember that kill speed is only one of the factors affecting the kills / hour rate. Firstly, remember that after every kill, you need to retrieve the loot, run to the nearest Strykewyrm, stomp, and wait for the animation to end. When each kill only takes 7 casts on average, the 5 or so seconds spent between kills composes a significant amount of the time you spend at Strykewyrms.

 

Finally, we have a living example of the Fire Cape effect at Kuradel's Dungeon in the Ferocious Ring. Like I said, I've done quite a bit of slayer since the Strykewyrms have been released, and I've noticed that weapons that are slow and hard hitting don't really benefit much from the Ferocious Ring. The weapon that indisputably benefits the most is the Dragon Claws, with the special attack inflicting an additional 16 damage, at ~2 seconds per attack. Weapons like the Abyssal Whip improve significantly, but when I slayed side-by-side with a friend using an Armadyl Godsword, the gap between us was noticeably larger than it is normally (Whip normally outperforms Armadyl Godsword during Slayer, but in this case, the improvement was even more visible).

 

Armadyl Godsword attacks roughly 20 times per minute, the same speed as general combat spell-casting.

 

Of course, if the +4 damage is doubled, that changes the story entirely, as +8 damage is much more significant, especially with the Strykewyrms having high hitpoints. Which is my complaint, Jagex isn't very clear about this coming update at all. They've held back on it, probably waiting for more feedback, but how can we give accurate feedback without knowing the specifics? Namely, how many slayer points will it cost? I've gone from 88 to 93 Slayer since Strykewyrms were released and earned over 2.5K points... and this is despite other things going on in my life (granted, I've been told by many that the way I slay results in much faster points and XP). Is this an ability to kill Strykewyrms without a Fire Cape, or an ability to get Strykewyrm tasks and anyone can kill them without the Fire Cape? Is the +4 damage doubled? Etc.

 

Nice analysis Morionic, I'm gonna keep that in mind next time I get an Ice wyrms task.

 

@ Soma: That compromise is bound to be misinterpreted until it gets implemented and explained in an update.

 

Would it have killed them to tell us how many points they were thinking it would cost? Or whether those with Fire Capes need to pay to kill the Ice Strykewyrms capeless?

 

 

I dunno how this turned into about capes and damage, but you people have seriously too much time on your hands to be going through all this.

I'm an RS gamer, by definition I have too much time on my hands

anyways back to the numbers.

 

looting and stomping

so yes it takes time to loot and stomp

lets say i can kill 200 wyrms in 1 hour with a soul wars cape ignoring time spent looting, and it would take me an additional 10 minutes to loot

lets say i can kill 200 wyrms in 55 mins with a fire cape ignoring time spent looting, and it would take me an additional 10 minuets to loot 200 wyrms (an equal number of wyrms)

 

these are independent variables

even if i factor them in, I still save 5 minutes at the cost of 10k gp in prayer potions

no effect on calculations, factor was ignored on purpose

 

im not sure what you're getting at about the comment with +24 damage per kill, and that not being significant because that's not even a single hit

even if it's not a single hit, it's a +10% bonus. 10% is significant, you cant look at things qualitatively and say that they're only single hits or not

 

you also mentioned the +4 damage having different effects on different types of weapons

But we're talking about fire surge exclusively. What would weapon types factor into our analysis if we're only looking at magic?

All spells cast as the same rate, and there are no dragon claws of magic.

 

so once again, all variables you mentioned were ignored deliberately.

 

one not so trivial variable I ignored is that Knock-out hit loss

If the wyrm only has 10 hp left, and I hit a 30, 20 damage is lost

the higher the average hit, the more "knock out loss" can be expected per kill.

so in that sense +4 damage would contribute to the kill rate less than 10%

 

but assuming it's a +10% boost in kill rate, i would only need to earn 120k gp/hour to justify it

120k gp/hour is a very small number, all major variables have been accounted for

 

of course my 200 kills per hour value could have been incorrect in the first place (I am not 93 slayer, I just listen to what people tell me)

assuming that is correct, the results seem pretty clear.

 

if the kill rate is actually less than 200 kills per hour, then a +10% boost in kill rate is more substantial, and the fire cape becomes EVEN MORE justifiable

by linear extrapolation, if the kill rate is actually 400 kills per hour, then i would need to earn ~ 240k gp/hour to justify a fire cape

STILL A VERY SMALL INCOME

 

from the looks of it you would need a kill rate on the order of ~ 1k ice wyrms per hour to justify using a soul wars cape over a firecape

are we done now?

[Me_Hate_Libs]

I was saying the the theorectical mathematics is just strange. Debating all these numbers you don't even know to be the case yet. :rolleyes:

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I was saying the the theorectical mathematics is just strange. Debating all these numbers you don't even know to be the case yet. :rolleyes:

math is the language of business, and efficiency is a subset of business

you know the language, or you dont

[Me_Hate_Libs]

I was saying the the theorectical mathematics is just strange. Debating all these numbers you don't even know to be the case yet. :rolleyes:

math is the language of business, and efficiency is a subset of business

you know the language, or you dont

 

Sorry, I simply don't understand how Runescape is a business, unless you work at Jagex that is.

[fishy227]

Nice analysis Morionic, I'm gonna keep that in mind next time I get an Ice wyrms task.

 

@ Soma: That compromise is bound to be misinterpreted until it gets implemented and explained in an update.

 

Would it have killed them to tell us how many points they were thinking it would cost? Or whether those with Fire Capes need to pay to kill the Ice Strykewyrms capeless?

 

That so they have something to rant about when it gets released, Ex. WHAT!@!@! It cost 9000 points!@!@

[Soma2035]

[spoiler=Quotes]

so max hit with fire surge is about 90 damage at the moment

average damage of 45 per hit

+4 would boost it by about 10% to 49

 

+10 magic i don't consider worth it, because from what i hear, fire surge hits the wyrms pretty accurately as it is

 

so in staff of light and other gear the prayer bonus is +22 with soul wars cape

+12 with fire cape

 

fire cape drains 1.4x slower

soul wars cape drains 1.7x slower

 

your kill rate is upped by about 10% due to the fire cape, so the fire cape is more like 1.5x if you're counting prayer consumed per kill

so anyways at +0 prayer, you lose 1 ppoint per 3 seconds using pro mage

 

so lets say it takes an hour to slay 200 ice wyrms with a soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.7 = 700 prayer points for 200 kills in an hour with soul wars cape

 

3600/3/1.5 = 860 prayer points for 220 kills in an hour with a firecape

OR 780 prayer points for 200 kills in 55 minutes

 

so 80 extra prayer points for 200 kills = ~2.5 doses of prayer potion = 10k gp

 

 

10k gp extra cost to save yourself 5 minutes

 

you'd have to make over 120k gp/hour in order to justify using a fire cape over a soul wars cape @ ice wyrms ASSUMING YOU ONLY GET +4 DAMAGE BONUS like you stated

 

fire cape > soul wars cape

 

I think you're overlooking quite a bit of information there. Salarin the Twisted is perhaps the best example of this - every cast of Fire Strike does 12 damage. He has 70 HP. Let's just say it was possible to increase this to 13 damage. This is an 8% increase in damage.

 

How many casts will it take to kill Salarin with Fire Strikes? 6. How many casts will it take to kill Salarin with a 13 damage spell? 6. This isn't exactly the same situation since damage against Salarin with Strike spells are at a set number, but you can do something similar with average damage.

 

Fire Surge is expected to inflict 43 damage on average. At 300 Hitpoints, that's nearly 7 casts per kill, meaning your 7th cast is expected to kill the Wyrm if you don't miss. Now, add 4 points of damage onto each of the first 6 hits. This adds up to 24, barely half of the expected average hit. This won't usually save you a cast. In other words, maybe once every few kills, you'll save one cast, but not many.

 

Meanwhile, you have to remember that kill speed is only one of the factors affecting the kills / hour rate. Firstly, remember that after every kill, you need to retrieve the loot, run to the nearest Strykewyrm, stomp, and wait for the animation to end. When each kill only takes 7 casts on average, the 5 or so seconds spent between kills composes a significant amount of the time you spend at Strykewyrms.

 

Finally, we have a living example of the Fire Cape effect at Kuradel's Dungeon in the Ferocious Ring. Like I said, I've done quite a bit of slayer since the Strykewyrms have been released, and I've noticed that weapons that are slow and hard hitting don't really benefit much from the Ferocious Ring. The weapon that indisputably benefits the most is the Dragon Claws, with the special attack inflicting an additional 16 damage, at ~2 seconds per attack. Weapons like the Abyssal Whip improve significantly, but when I slayed side-by-side with a friend using an Armadyl Godsword, the gap between us was noticeably larger than it is normally (Whip normally outperforms Armadyl Godsword during Slayer, but in this case, the improvement was even more visible).

 

Armadyl Godsword attacks roughly 20 times per minute, the same speed as general combat spell-casting.

 

Of course, if the +4 damage is doubled, that changes the story entirely, as +8 damage is much more significant, especially with the Strykewyrms having high hitpoints. Which is my complaint, Jagex isn't very clear about this coming update at all. They've held back on it, probably waiting for more feedback, but how can we give accurate feedback without knowing the specifics? Namely, how many slayer points will it cost? I've gone from 88 to 93 Slayer since Strykewyrms were released and earned over 2.5K points... and this is despite other things going on in my life (granted, I've been told by many that the way I slay results in much faster points and XP). Is this an ability to kill Strykewyrms without a Fire Cape, or an ability to get Strykewyrm tasks and anyone can kill them without the Fire Cape? Is the +4 damage doubled? Etc.

 

Nice analysis Morionic, I'm gonna keep that in mind next time I get an Ice wyrms task.

 

@ Soma: That compromise is bound to be misinterpreted until it gets implemented and explained in an update.

 

Would it have killed them to tell us how many points they were thinking it would cost? Or whether those with Fire Capes need to pay to kill the Ice Strykewyrms capeless?

 

 

I dunno how this turned into about capes and damage, but you people have seriously too much time on your hands to be going through all this.

I'm an RS gamer, by definition I have too much time on my hands

anyways back to the numbers.

 

looting and stomping

so yes it takes time to loot and stomp

lets say i can kill 200 wyrms in 1 hour with a soul wars cape ignoring time spent looting, and it would take me an additional 10 minutes to loot

lets say i can kill 200 wyrms in 55 mins with a fire cape ignoring time spent looting, and it would take me an additional 10 minuets to loot 200 wyrms (an equal number of wyrms)

 

these are independent variables

even if i factor them in, I still save 5 minutes at the cost of 10k gp in prayer potions

no effect on calculations, factor was ignored on purpose

 

im not sure what you're getting at about the comment with +24 damage per kill, and that not being significant because that's not even a single hit

even if it's not a single hit, it's a +10% bonus. 10% is significant, you cant look at things qualitatively and say that they're only single hits or not

 

you also mentioned the +4 damage having different effects on different types of weapons

But we're talking about fire surge exclusively. What would weapon types factor into our analysis if we're only looking at magic?

All spells cast as the same rate, and there are no dragon claws of magic.

 

so once again, all variables you mentioned were ignored deliberately.

 

one not so trivial variable I ignored is that Knock-out hit loss

If the wyrm only has 10 hp left, and I hit a 30, 20 damage is lost

the higher the average hit, the more "knock out loss" can be expected per kill.

so in that sense +4 damage would contribute to the kill rate less than 10%

 

but assuming it's a +10% boost in kill rate, i would only need to earn 120k gp/hour to justify it

120k gp/hour is a very small number, all major variables have been accounted for

 

of course my 200 kills per hour value could have been incorrect in the first place (I am not 93 slayer, I just listen to what people tell me)

assuming that is correct, the results seem pretty clear.

 

if the kill rate is actually less than 200 kills per hour, then a +10% boost in kill rate is more substantial, and the fire cape becomes EVEN MORE justifiable

by linear extrapolation, if the kill rate is actually 400 kills per hour, then i would need to earn ~ 240k gp/hour to justify a fire cape

STILL A VERY SMALL INCOME

 

from the looks of it you would need a kill rate on the order of ~ 1k ice wyrms per hour to justify using a soul wars cape over a firecape

are we done now?

 

I still don't get it. How are you getting a +10% boost in kill rate?

 

4 damage / 86 maximum is less than 5%. And as you conceded, this is further reduced by the lost damage from the knockout hits. You're getting less than a 5% improvement in kill rate.

 

Also, 200 is way off as far as kills per hour goes. A quick in-game measurement indicates that in addition to kill time, I spend about 8-9 seconds per Wyrm. At 21 seconds per kill on average, that's about 120 Wyrms per hour... which is reasonable from what I've heard from other 93 Slayers. Most of them go a little slower as they're not entirely paying attention.

 

One hour is 3,600 seconds. 70% of this is 2,520 seconds. If you reduce this by 3%, you save 75.6 seconds throughout the hour.

 

Disregarding the potential of you not paying attention, you're saving less than 2 minutes...

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I still don't get it. How are you getting a +10% boost in kill rate?

 

4 damage / 86 maximum is less than 5%. And as you conceded, this is further reduced by the lost damage from the knockout hits. You're getting less than a 5% improvement in kill rate.

 

Also, 200 is way off as far as kills per hour goes. A quick in-game measurement indicates that in addition to kill time, I spend about 8-9 seconds per Wyrm. At 21 seconds per kill on average, that's about 120 Wyrms per hour... which is reasonable from what I've heard from other 93 Slayers. Most of them go a little slower as they're not entirely paying attention.

 

One hour is 3,600 seconds. 70% of this is 2,520 seconds. If you reduce this by 3%, you save 75.6 seconds throughout the hour.

 

Disregarding the potential of you not paying attention, you're saving less than 2 minutes...

ferocious ring boosts minimum hit AND maximum hit. not +4 to just maximum hit. the fire cape will work like the ferocious ring so this is how i worked.

86 maximum = 43 average +4 = 47

47/43 = 9.3% average damage boost

10% was an estimate

 

200 kills per hour was a rough estimate, my proof showed that the fire cape is even more worthwhile the fewer kills per hour

In that regard, 200 kills per hour is actually a highly conservative estimate

 

i promise you that if i assumed 120 wyrms per hour, the argument for using fire cape would become even stronger, not weaker.

[Soma2035]

I was saying the the theorectical mathematics is just strange. Debating all these numbers you don't even know to be the case yet. :rolleyes:

math is the language of business, and efficiency is a subset of business

you know the language, or you dont

 

Sorry, I simply don't understand how Runescape is a business, unless you work at Jagex that is.

 

You're right in that theoretical mathematics are very rarely accurate. In fact, there's enough we don't know that more likely than not, both Morionic's numbers and mine are probably wrong.

 

However, I also pointed out the comparison to the Ferocious Ring. The Ferocious Ring is not a significant improvement over existing Rings, or even no ring at all, while slaying in Kuradel's Dungeon with an Armadyl Godsword. I watched my friend slay throughout the week without a Whip (trying to get 85 to replace the one he lost, seeing as he was already 84.)

 

AGS and Fire Surge have the same attack speeds. Fire Surge hits higher than AGS while Slaying, and the reason the bonus isn't impressive is that a lot of it is wasted on the kill hit. Sure, you may rack up another 20 damage throughout the kill, but when your already overkilling the monster by 50 HP, the last 20 just doesn't help you very much.

 

After the update, we will be able to test and find out for sure. But if it is the way a lot of people believe it will be (low cost, only purchased to unlock the tasks, +4 not doubled), then I will probably use the Red Cape...

[Soma2035]

I still don't get it. How are you getting a +10% boost in kill rate?

 

4 damage / 86 maximum is less than 5%. And as you conceded, this is further reduced by the lost damage from the knockout hits. You're getting less than a 5% improvement in kill rate.

 

Also, 200 is way off as far as kills per hour goes. A quick in-game measurement indicates that in addition to kill time, I spend about 8-9 seconds per Wyrm. At 21 seconds per kill on average, that's about 120 Wyrms per hour... which is reasonable from what I've heard from other 93 Slayers. Most of them go a little slower as they're not entirely paying attention.

 

One hour is 3,600 seconds. 70% of this is 2,520 seconds. If you reduce this by 3%, you save 75.6 seconds throughout the hour.

 

Disregarding the potential of you not paying attention, you're saving less than 2 minutes...

ferocious ring boosts minimum hit AND maximum hit. not +4 to just maximum hit. the fire cape will work like the ferocious ring so this is how i worked.

86 maximum = 43 average +4 = 47

47/43 = 9.3% average damage boost

10% was an estimate

 

200 kills per hour was a rough estimate, my proof showed that the fire cape is even more worthwhile the fewer kills per hour

In that regard, 200 kills per hour is actually a highly conservative estimate

 

i promise you that if i assumed 120 wyrms per hour, the argument for using fire cape would become even stronger, not weaker.

 

You made a false assumption that kills per hour reflects how fast the wyrm dies. In fact, kills per hour reflects how much time a player spends looking away. As long as the player is using Fire Surge, a 10% wand, and a Wolpertinger / Extreme Magic Potion, we can assume the actual time spent killing the worm is about 20-25 seconds per Wyrm. How many kills you get per hour is dependent on idle time, which is constituted by the player's APM or lack of, and his attention on the game. I can tell you for a fact that when I kill Strykewyrms, I'm often idle for as long as 15 seconds between Wyrms...

 

If 40 minutes of your hour is spent idle, then you're only saving on the remaining 20 minutes. So lower kills per hour = more idle time = less benefit from your kills. However, as idle time is often spent with prayer on (too much hassle to turn on and off after every kill), the costs remain the same.

 

In other words, while your words may hold true if you're ALWAYS focused, for the majority of slayers, you're overstating the benefit significantly.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

You're right in that theoretical mathematics are very rarely accurate. In fact, there's enough we don't know that more likely than not, both Morionic's numbers and mine are probably wrong.

 

However, I also pointed out the comparison to the Ferocious Ring. The Ferocious Ring is not a significant improvement over existing Rings, or even no ring at all, while slaying in Kuradel's Dungeon with an Armadyl Godsword. I watched my friend slay throughout the week without a Whip (trying to get 85 to replace the one he lost, seeing as he was already 84.)

 

AGS and Fire Surge have the same attack speeds. Fire Surge hits higher than AGS while Slaying, and the reason the bonus isn't impressive is that a lot of it is wasted on the kill hit. Sure, you may rack up another 20 damage throughout the kill, but when your already overkilling the monster by 50 HP, the last 20 just doesn't help you very much.

 

After the update, we will be able to test and find out for sure. But if it is the way a lot of people believe it will be (low cost, only purchased to unlock the tasks, +4 not doubled), then I will probably use the Red Cape...

wait what are you defining as significant?

the ferocious ring boosts kill rates by at least 5% in kuradal's dungeon.

I mean i guess that's not significant for some people, but remember this is an MMORPG, people pay millions of gp for relatively small bonuses

I could argue that an abyssal whip is only 10-15% faster than a dragon scimitar. I mean what kind of kill rate differences are we expecting?

 

in theory the overkill losses are approximately equal to half of your average hit

ice wyrms have a MASSIVE hitpoints pool (300 hp)

lets say max hit is 86 without the +4 bonus

and 90 with the +4 bonus

 

overkill losses per kill without the +4 bonus:

21.5/300 = 7.167%

overkill losses per kill with the +4 bonus:

23.5/300 = 7.783%

 

we're talking about a difference of 0.62% in knock out damage losses

much less than the ~9% kill rate increase fire capes will offer

 

You made a false assumption that kills per hour reflects how fast the wyrm dies. In fact, kills per hour reflects how much time a player spends looking away. As long as the player is using Fire Surge, a 10% wand, and a Wolpertinger / Extreme Magic Potion, we can assume the actual time spent killing the worm is about 20-25 seconds per Wyrm. How many kills you get per hour is dependent on idle time, which is constituted by the player's APM or lack of, and his attention on the game. I can tell you for a fact that when I kill Strykewyrms, I'm often idle for as long as 15 seconds between Wyrms...

 

If 40 minutes of your hour is spent idle, then you're only saving on the remaining 20 minutes. So lower kills per hour = more idle time = less benefit from your kills. However, as idle time is often spent with prayer on (too much hassle to turn on and off after every kill), the costs remain the same.

 

In other words, while your words may hold true if you're ALWAYS focused, for the majority of slayers, you're overstating the benefit significantly.

I'll admit i made a false assumption based on prayer still being on during idle time

but the thing is, the value is still insignificant

 

as things are now, the cutoff income remains at 120k gp/hour

unless your spending 5 minutes idle in between kills with your prayer on

idle time isnt going to make a difference

 

most lvl 93 slayers will make much more than 120k gp/hour

that's the income rate of picking flax afterall...

ANYWAYS THE POINT IS

theoretical math can be inaccurate yes, but up to a certain point

in this case, my end result would require a percent error of over 1000% in order for there to be any possibility of soul wars capes being more worth it than fire capes

 

THEORETICAL MATH CAN BE WRONG BUT NOT 1000% WRONG

[Soma2035]

You're right in that theoretical mathematics are very rarely accurate. In fact, there's enough we don't know that more likely than not, both Morionic's numbers and mine are probably wrong.

 

However, I also pointed out the comparison to the Ferocious Ring. The Ferocious Ring is not a significant improvement over existing Rings, or even no ring at all, while slaying in Kuradel's Dungeon with an Armadyl Godsword. I watched my friend slay throughout the week without a Whip (trying to get 85 to replace the one he lost, seeing as he was already 84.)

 

AGS and Fire Surge have the same attack speeds. Fire Surge hits higher than AGS while Slaying, and the reason the bonus isn't impressive is that a lot of it is wasted on the kill hit. Sure, you may rack up another 20 damage throughout the kill, but when your already overkilling the monster by 50 HP, the last 20 just doesn't help you very much.

 

After the update, we will be able to test and find out for sure. But if it is the way a lot of people believe it will be (low cost, only purchased to unlock the tasks, +4 not doubled), then I will probably use the Red Cape...

wait what are you defining as significant?

the ferocious ring boosts kill rates by at least 5% in kuradal's dungeon.

I mean i guess that's not significant for some people, but remember this is an MMORPG, people pay millions of gp for relatively small bonuses

I could argue that an abyssal whip is only 10-15% faster than a dragon scimitar. I mean what kind of kill rate differences are we expecting?

 

in theory the overkill losses are approximately equal to half of your average hit

ice wyrms have a MASSIVE hitpoints pool (300 hp)

lets say max hit is 86 without the +4 bonus

and 90 with the +4 bonus

 

overkill losses per kill without the +4 bonus:

21.5/300 = 7.167%

overkill losses per kill with the +4 bonus:

23.5/300 = 7.783%

 

we're talking about a difference of 0.62% in knock out damage losses

much less than the ~9% kill rate increase fire capes will offer

 

You made a false assumption that kills per hour reflects how fast the wyrm dies. In fact, kills per hour reflects how much time a player spends looking away. As long as the player is using Fire Surge, a 10% wand, and a Wolpertinger / Extreme Magic Potion, we can assume the actual time spent killing the worm is about 20-25 seconds per Wyrm. How many kills you get per hour is dependent on idle time, which is constituted by the player's APM or lack of, and his attention on the game. I can tell you for a fact that when I kill Strykewyrms, I'm often idle for as long as 15 seconds between Wyrms...

 

If 40 minutes of your hour is spent idle, then you're only saving on the remaining 20 minutes. So lower kills per hour = more idle time = less benefit from your kills. However, as idle time is often spent with prayer on (too much hassle to turn on and off after every kill), the costs remain the same.

 

In other words, while your words may hold true if you're ALWAYS focused, for the majority of slayers, you're overstating the benefit significantly.

I'll admit i made a false assumption based on prayer still being on during idle time

but the thing is, the value is still insignificant

 

as things are now, the cutoff income remains at 120k gp/hour

unless your spending 5 minutes idle in between kills with your prayer on

idle time isnt going to make a difference

 

most lvl 93 slayers will make much more than 120k gp/hour

that's the income rate of picking flax afterall...

 

Idle time while focused composes of a third of your kill time. Like I said, average hit approximates a kill at ~21 seconds. Time spent picking up a drop, stomping on a wyrm, running from wyrm to wyrm, takes ~9 seconds.

 

Even while paying attention you're losing a third of your time to idle time, if we were to define idle as "not attacking" which is the context I put it in. That means, your damage improvement only affects 40 of your 60 minutes.

 

Add another 3-4 seconds, which is not uncommon to spend between kills. Now it's taking about 40% of your time, leaving you with 36 or your 60 minutes being affected...

 

And finally, I don't think you're really calculating overkill correctly... but that depends heavily on how damage is calculated, so at this point, I'm just going to leave this discussion with this:

 

More likely than not, as someone who HAS a Fire Cape and 93 Slayer, if this change were to be made the way most people are predicting it, I will not be using my Fire Cape there based on my past experiences with Ferocious Ring + Slow and high-hitting weapons, until someone does extensive testing to show significant improvement.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Idle time while focused composes of a third of your kill time. Like I said, average hit approximates a kill at ~21 seconds. Time spent picking up a drop, stomping on a wyrm, running from wyrm to wyrm, takes ~9 seconds.

 

Even while paying attention you're losing a third of your time to idle time, if we were to define idle as "not attacking" which is the context I put it in. That means, your damage improvement only affects 40 of your 60 minutes.

 

Add another 3-4 seconds, which is not uncommon to spend between kills. Now it's taking about 40% of your time, leaving you with 36 or your 60 minutes being affected...

lets assume that the player is in fact praying the entire time, including idle + prayer time

a previous player asserted that he kills 120 ice wyrms in hour, this would of course, include idle time

 

so 700 prayer points for 120 kills in 60 minutes with a soul wars cape

 

okay so the math gets a little tricky here. Because a only a fraction of the time spent will actually be in combat, during which a fire cape is ineffective

so including idle time, it takes this man 30 seconds to kill a wyrm

lets go with your assumption that time picking up a drop + stomping a wyrm + running away from a wyrm takes 9 seconds, actually lets round that up to 10 seconds to be generous

120 * (1.093 * 20/30 + 10/30) = 127.4 kills per hour

 

860 prayer points for 127.4 kills in 60 minutes with a fire cape under your assumptions

810 prayer points for 120 kills in 56.5 minutes

110 prayer points to save 3.5 minutes

11458 gp in prayer potions to save 3.5 minutes

 

breakoff income of 196,422 gp/hour

STILL INSIGNIFICANT TO A LVL 93 SLAYER

 

 

And finally, I don't think you're really calculating overkill correctly... but that depends heavily on how damage is calculated, so at this point, I'm just going to leave this discussion with this:

it's not precise, but it's accurate for monsters of sufficient large hitpoints

rule of thumb, if it takes on average less than 3-4 hits to kill a monster, then my calculation is inaccurate

but it takes 7 hits to kill an ice wyrm. The amount of HP a wyrm has before he dies is sufficiently random after 7 hits to use my overkill assumptions.

 

about how damage is calculated, It's already been shown that damage shows a linear, flat, horizontal, whatever you want to call it distribution

You are just as likely to hit a 1 as you are to hit a 50

I fail to see what else there is to discuss about how damage is calculated

research has been done, whether you are aware of it or not.

 

More likely than not, as someone who HAS a Fire Cape and 93 Slayer, if this change were to be made the way most people are predicting it, I will not be using my Fire Cape there based on my past experiences with Ferocious Ring + Slow and high-hitting weapons, until someone does extensive testing to show significant improvement.

you're trash talking theoretical math when you're making your judgements based on "past experiences"?

theoretical math can be wrong

so can past experiences, further more i can argue past experiences are much more prone to being wrong than theoretical math.

[Soma2035]

Idle time while focused composes of a third of your kill time. Like I said, average hit approximates a kill at ~21 seconds. Time spent picking up a drop, stomping on a wyrm, running from wyrm to wyrm, takes ~9 seconds.

 

Even while paying attention you're losing a third of your time to idle time, if we were to define idle as "not attacking" which is the context I put it in. That means, your damage improvement only affects 40 of your 60 minutes.

 

Add another 3-4 seconds, which is not uncommon to spend between kills. Now it's taking about 40% of your time, leaving you with 36 or your 60 minutes being affected...

lets assume that the player is in fact praying the entire time, including idle + prayer time

a previous player asserted that he kills 120 ice wyrms in hour, this would of course, include idle time

 

so 700 prayer points for 120 kills in 60 minutes with a soul wars cape

 

okay so the math gets a little tricky here. Because a only a fraction of the time spent will actually be in combat, during which a fire cape is ineffective

so including idle time, it takes this man 30 seconds to kill a wyrm

lets go with your assumption that time picking up a drop + stomping a wyrm + running away from a wyrm takes 9 seconds, actually lets round that up to 10 seconds to be generous

120 * (1.093 * 20/30 + 10/30) = 127.4 kills per hour

 

860 prayer points for 127.4 kills in 60 minutes with a fire cape under your assumptions

810 prayer points for 120 kills in 56.5 minutes

110 prayer points to save 3.5 minutes

11458 gp in prayer potions to save 3.5 minutes

 

breakoff income of 196,422 gp/hour

STILL INSIGNIFICANT TO A LVL 93 SLAYER

 

 

And finally, I don't think you're really calculating overkill correctly... but that depends heavily on how damage is calculated, so at this point, I'm just going to leave this discussion with this:

it's not precise, but it's accurate for monsters of sufficient large hitpoints

rule of thumb, if it takes on average less than 3-4 hits to kill a monster, then my calculation is inaccurate

but it takes 7 hits to kill an ice wyrm. The amount of HP a wyrm has before he dies is sufficiently random after 7 hits to use my overkill assumptions.

 

about how damage is calculated, It's already been shown that damage shows a linear, flat, horizontal, whatever you want to call it distribution

You are just as likely to hit a 1 as you are to hit a 50

I fail to see what else there is to discuss about how damage is calculated

research has been done, whether you are aware of it or not.

 

More likely than not, as someone who HAS a Fire Cape and 93 Slayer, if this change were to be made the way most people are predicting it, I will not be using my Fire Cape there based on my past experiences with Ferocious Ring + Slow and high-hitting weapons, until someone does extensive testing to show significant improvement.

you're trash talking theoretical math when you're making your judgements based on "past experiences"?

theoretical math can be wrong

so can past experiences, further more i can argue past experiences are much more prone to being wrong than theoretical math.

 

I'm not trash talking anything. I'm pointing out that your assumptions with regards to the damage formula are likely wrong, as actual in-game experiences seem to indicate that slow, high hitting weapons don't seem to benefit as often as they should, and that's likely due to the fact that we don't have the damage formula.

 

All I'm saying is, what I see in-game proves your theoretical math wrong. Now, maybe my casual observation is inaccurate, that may very well be the case. But I'd trust that over math with no data behind it at all, so I, and other slayers who have come to the same conclusion, will follow what we have concluded instead of relying on theoretical math. Now if you or someone else gets real data that shows otherwise, that's statistically significant, then it would be worth looking into, but that's not the case (yet).

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I'm not trash talking anything. I'm pointing out that your assumptions with regards to the damage formula are likely wrong, as actual in-game experiences seem to indicate that slow, high hitting weapons don't seem to benefit as often as they should, and that's likely due to the fact that we don't have the damage formula.

 

All I'm saying is, what I see in-game proves your theoretical math wrong. Now, maybe my casual observation is inaccurate, that may very well be the case. But I'd trust that over math with no data behind it at all, so I, and other slayers who have come to the same conclusion, will follow what we have concluded instead of relying on theoretical math. Now if you or someone else gets real data that shows otherwise, that's statistically significant, then it would be worth looking into, but that's not the case (yet).

wait, of course high hitting weapons dont benefit as much as they should

Did I not account for that? of course I did

fire surge maxes ~ 90, so the bonus is ONLY 9.3%

 

whereas the max hit of rune darts, a low hitting weapon with a max hit of ~ 16

would receive a bonus of 50%

 

or a whip, which i max hit ~50 without a ferocious ring, which would benefit ~ 16% from a ferocious ring

 

i'm pretty sure that's well accounted for.

 

the point is that a +10 prayer bonus is inconsequential to to even a small bonus such as 9.3%

 

the soul wars cape only saves you 16.6k gp/hour in prayer potions

it doesn't really matter how small the benefit from the +4 bonus is. the cost savings from the soul wars cape is inherently miniscule.

 

so i make about ~2 mil gp hour, and i bet any lvl 93 slayer could make that much killing tormented demons or what the heck other boss monster

hell he would probably be making 2 mil gp hour or more just hunting ice wyrms...

 

16.6k/2000k = 0.0083

the +4 bonus would have to give less than a +0.83% bonus to damage rate.

 

I don't know what your past experiences tell you.

But I can tell you right now, +0.83% is not noticeable to the average human. I fail to see how it is even possible your past observations could have led you to your current conclusion, unless you have a broken stopwatch

 

just so you know, using summoning scrolls can slow down familiar timers. I don't see how else you could have made such a massive error in your "past experiences"

[Soma2035]

I'm not trash talking anything. I'm pointing out that your assumptions with regards to the damage formula are likely wrong, as actual in-game experiences seem to indicate that slow, high hitting weapons don't seem to benefit as often as they should, and that's likely due to the fact that we don't have the damage formula.

 

All I'm saying is, what I see in-game proves your theoretical math wrong. Now, maybe my casual observation is inaccurate, that may very well be the case. But I'd trust that over math with no data behind it at all, so I, and other slayers who have come to the same conclusion, will follow what we have concluded instead of relying on theoretical math. Now if you or someone else gets real data that shows otherwise, that's statistically significant, then it would be worth looking into, but that's not the case (yet).

wait, of course high hitting weapons dont benefit as much as they should

Did I not account for that? of course I did

fire surge maxes ~ 90, so the bonus is ONLY 9.3%

 

whereas the max hit of rune darts, a low hitting weapon with a max hit of ~ 16

would receive a bonus of 50%

 

or a whip, which i max hit ~50 without a ferocious ring, which would benefit ~ 16% from a ferocious ring

 

i'm pretty sure that's well accounted for.

 

the point is that a +10 prayer bonus is inconsequential to to even a small bonus such as 9.3%

 

the soul wars cape only saves you 16.6k gp/hour in prayer potions

it doesn't really matter how small the benefit from the +4 bonus is. the cost savings from the soul wars cape is inherently miniscule.

 

I think at this point you're just trolling. Either that, or ignoring my point entirely.

 

Go to Ice Strykewyrms. Get the gear to inflict 86 per hit. Tally up the hits, and see how frequently you actually would have saved a cast or more. Multiply the number of casts you saved by 3 seconds, this is how much time you saved.

 

Right now, my in-game experience says the opposite of you. Which means either your math is wrong (I don't think it is), you're overlooking something (possible), or some of your assumptions with regard to how the +4 is reflected in average damage are flawed (possible), or my in-game experience is inaccurate (again, possible). Until you actually test this, I don't know what it is. But I do know, until it's tested, I'm going with what I think is right.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I think at this point you're just trolling. Either that, or ignoring my point entirely.

 

Go to Ice Strykewyrms. Get the gear to inflict 86 per hit. Tally up the hits, and see how frequently you actually would have saved a cast or more. Multiply the number of casts you saved by 3 seconds, this is how much time you saved.

 

Right now, my in-game experience says the opposite of you. Which means either your math is wrong (I don't think it is), you're overlooking something (possible), or some of your assumptions with regard to how the +4 is reflected in average damage are flawed (possible), or my in-game experience is inaccurate (again, possible). Until you actually test this, I don't know what it is. But I do know, until it's tested, I'm going with what I think is right.

the point is that even if the the +4 boost boosted the kill rate from only 120 to 121 per hour

it would still be worth it

simply because prayer potions arent worth that much money

 

Sure I could go tally up up ice wyrm kills once i got 93 slayer BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARY

because i know that i only need to boost my kill rate by 1 kill per hour to make a difference

 

are you saying that based on past experiences, ferocious rings dont even boost kill rates by even a single kill per hour?

because that's all it takes

[Soma2035]

I think at this point you're just trolling. Either that, or ignoring my point entirely.

 

Go to Ice Strykewyrms. Get the gear to inflict 86 per hit. Tally up the hits, and see how frequently you actually would have saved a cast or more. Multiply the number of casts you saved by 3 seconds, this is how much time you saved.

 

Right now, my in-game experience says the opposite of you. Which means either your math is wrong (I don't think it is), you're overlooking something (possible), or some of your assumptions with regard to how the +4 is reflected in average damage are flawed (possible), or my in-game experience is inaccurate (again, possible). Until you actually test this, I don't know what it is. But I do know, until it's tested, I'm going with what I think is right.

the point is that even if the the +4 boost boosted the kill rate from only 120 to 121 per hour

it would still be worth it

simply because prayer potions arent worth that much money

 

Sure I could go tally up up ice wyrm kills once i got 93 slayer BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARY

because i know that i only need to boost my kill rate by 1 kill per hour to make a difference

 

are you saying that based on past experiences, ferocious rings dont even boost kill rates by even a single kill per hour?

because that's all it takes

 

But 1 kill per hour isn't significant at all to me. Buying, bringing, and drinking the prayer potion is a hassle that would outweigh an additional .8% killers per hour. So unless the difference is significant, which currently no data shows, it's not worth the hassle...