If we implemented PR, we'd never see another Tory government ever again, it would never even be close to possible.

the general thing with PR here (Norway), is that population centers gain a lot of power (read: cities). Others get little say, like those living in the countryside. Thus our politicians saw the need to impose some regional limitations in the same house (House of representatives, the senate in the US). That balance was struck in 1946, and is virtually impossible to change, although the populations in the countryside have decreased, and the cities have doubled and trippled their populations. Thus, cities are today under-represented.

 

PR isn't perfect, but it's a ton better than the current British or American systems. Inherited seats in the house of Lords, and bipartisan states are greater challenges if you ask me: split the Democrats, republicans, Conservatives and Labour into parts, and you wouldn't have radicalized governments: you'd have the possibility of center-coalitions based on cooperation, not incessant conflict, like the systems function today.

We have proportional representation already, but we elect politicians themselves, not their parties. As tortilliachp mentioned, House of Reps/Senate. However, again, as he also stated, rural areas are overrepresented. There are too many solidly Republican states that are overrepresented in the US Senate. It's not fair that Idaho gets just as much say as California in the Senate when you can block the agenda of the majority party with just 40 votes. It's also not very nice when we have a party that's so far to the right that I will do everything in my power to elect the most corrupt corporate [bleep] in the Democratic party just to keep them out of office. I don't understand how ANYONE could still be a Republican. I can understand if you're conservative, but I cannot understand if you're a Republican.

 

My fellow citizens of the world, I don't think Barack Obama will lose in 2012, but we're about to elect some people into our Senate who are your equivalent BNP people this November. Not necessarily as Nazish...but Utah, Kentucky, Indiana, Arizona, and maybe Florida are all going to turn sharply to the right, and I mean SHARPLY to the right. I didn't see how that was possible in Utah or Arizona, but it's going to happen.

 

I don't get it. It's like the American people have [bleep]ing amnesia. We've just seen a financial crisis not seen since 1929, an environmental apocalypse, and we actually have 30% of this country saying "deregulate more!" I fear for my country these next election cycles. It's going to be scary as hell.

 

I mean, that oil spill you're hearing about? You'd THINK that this would make my country be like "Ok, no offshore oil drilling for a long time" (I'd like it to be never). But no. The Republicans refuse to support an energy bill without it, so now there probably won't be climate change legislation passing. I didn't think they'd support it anyway, seeing as their goal is to block, stall and do everything they can from allowing the government to function, but there was a slight chance at least. There is like 2 to 5 senators in their coalition who believe in climate change. The remainder don't believe it. The remainder also doesn't believe in evolution.

 

Seeing as you guys elect parties, it shouldn't be terribly bad if you were to have balance with a Senate/House. Plus with PR you'd have 3 parties. We have it and still only have 2. This is why we need instant run-off voting. Then I could happily vote for Ralph Nader and not be scared of wasting my vote whereby bat[cabbage] insane Republicans get into office.

I'm gonna call it at about 250-260 each for labour and tory, and about 100-110 for LD.

If anyone is considering voting tactically or is vaguely interested in how important their constituency is, this website should give you an idea of how influential your constituency is/can be in the overall outcome of the general election. http://www.voterpower.org.uk

 

Just as an example here is the page for my constituency: http://www.voterpower.org.uk/kirkcaldy-cowdenbeath

 

Good website. My constituency is labeled as a "very safe" Labour seat. I don't really know how much individual seats swing, so perhaps I'm being naive, but there is a new Labour candidate as opposed to our long-standing MP, so I wonder how far this affects voting in an individual constituency. Presumably people would be more likely to switch to a new party when they don't have any personal loyalty to the new candidate? (it would still require the Labour vote to drop by 18% though...)

Who's going to be watching which Election programme, if any? I'm thinking of alternating between Channel 4's Alternative Election night, seeing as I love Charlie Brooker, and of course, the BBC, for a bit of serious Dimbleby. And of course recording Outnumbered ;)

We have proportional representation already, but we elect politicians themselves, not their parties. As tortilliachp mentioned, House of Reps/Senate. However, again, as he also stated, rural areas are overrepresented. There are too many solidly Republican states that are overrepresented in the US Senate. It's not fair that Idaho gets just as much say as California in the Senate when you can block the agenda of the majority party with just 40 votes. It's also not very nice when we have a party that's so far to the right that I will do everything in my power to elect the most corrupt corporate [bleep] in the Democratic party just to keep them out of office. I don't understand how ANYONE could still be a Republican. I can understand if you're conservative, but I cannot understand if you're a Republican.

 

Honestly, voting for a corporatist Democrat is just as bad as voting for a corporatist Republican. Besides, Democrats and Republicans really aren't as different as you would imagine.

 

 

Anyway, I agree with you on most of the points that you made, and I think that we should have more options than the Democrats and the Grand Old Party.

 

Oh, and you know what they say... If the people can't solve the country's problems via the polls, you can always...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjfrexe61XI

 

Hopefully it will never have to come to that, although I do believe that the vast majority of politicians aren't doing what's best for the nation and are doing what best serves their own interests. The current US government (just talking about since the Cold War) is no better (or even worse) than the British Empire. At least the latter was more competent.

 

By the way, Arkansas is trying to pass a law that will prohibit the state from allowing illegals to access state services. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it (mostly because I have just heard about it and still lack a lot of information), but I think that it would be a thing of interest for you to know.

Who's going to be watching which Election programme, if any? I'm thinking of alternating between Channel 4's Alternative Election night, seeing as I love Charlie Brooker, and of course, the BBC, for a bit of serious Dimbleby. And of course recording Outnumbered ;)

Yes, I'll be watching the BBC program (I much prefer BBC over ITV tbh). I'll probably watch it on iPlayer and chat with people as it happens :P

 

And yeah, Outnumbered! :thumbsup: You should lrn2iPlayer though, rather than recording :P

Outnumbered rules!!

 

Anyway, I voted today, and I'm quite sure I'll watch some of the election stuffon the bbc when i get in tonight. Should be interesting, my whole group seems to be divided as to who to vote for.

I usually enjoy staying up ridiculously late watching the polls come in. It's like watching a football match with all the emotions going up and down and the scores coming in. Unfortunately this Friday I have to be up very early.for an all-day event, so I will instead try to get up at 6am to see how it has gone before I have to leave the house.

I should be going to college tomorrow morning, but I'll just see how that works out :P Might be some interesting discussion on the results, though, but I don't want to miss out on watching the results live :D

 

Today I realised there's nobody worse you can argue with about politics than your sick Grandfather who takes The Sun to be the 'only paper that tells the truth.' I kinda tried to say that I don't trust The Sun but he didn't really want to know, and I only managed to convince him that since I'm voting Lib dem (I'm not, though, I just don't want hastle from them all >.<) It's kinda like a vote for the Conservatives since I said the Lib Dems would side with the Conservatives... T_T I'll be happy when it's over and I'm not being told all the time that 'we have to get rid of that bloody Brown'.

 

Not voted yet, since I'm still in college, but I'm definitely going to. ^_^

I should be going to college tomorrow morning, but I'll just see how that works out :P Might be some interesting discussion on the results, though, but I don't want to miss out on watching the results live :D

 

Today I realised there's nobody worse you can argue with about politics than your sick Grandfather who takes The Sun to be the 'only paper that tells the truth.' I kinda tried to say that I don't trust The Sun but he didn't really want to know, and I only managed to convince him that since I'm voting Lib dem (I'm not, though, I just don't want hastle from them all >.<) It's kinda like a vote for the Conservatives since I said the Lib Dems would side with the Conservatives... T_T I'll be happy when it's over and I'm not being told all the time that 'we have to get rid of that bloody Brown'.

 

Not voted yet, since I'm still in college, but I'm definitely going to. ^_^

 

You do realise its almost a certainty we are going to have a hung parliament and under existing law if we do have a hung parliament the existing prime minister will remain in the roll of prime minister, jsut obv a bit less powerful due to lack of majority.

We have proportional representation already, but we elect politicians themselves, not their parties. As tortilliachp mentioned, House of Reps/Senate. However, again, as he also stated, rural areas are overrepresented. There are too many solidly Republican states that are overrepresented in the US Senate. It's not fair that Idaho gets just as much say as California in the Senate when you can block the agenda of the majority party with just 40 votes. It's also not very nice when we have a party that's so far to the right that I will do everything in my power to elect the most corrupt corporate [bleep] in the Democratic party just to keep them out of office. I don't understand how ANYONE could still be a Republican. I can understand if you're conservative, but I cannot understand if you're a Republican.

 

Honestly, voting for a corporatist Democrat is just as bad as voting for a corporatist Republican. Besides, Democrats and Republicans really aren't as different as you would imagine.

 

No, lol. It's definitely not as bad. Republicans are beyond corporatist. Sure, half of the Democratic Senators are shilling for a particular industry, but only like 10 of them are bold enough to break with the party and vote in favor of their industry over party unity. Mary Landrieu, Blanche Lincoln, Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson, Tom Carper, Evan Bayh, Kent Conrad will all buck the party for their own industry. Sure there's a lot more Blue Dog corporate [bleep]ers than the ones I listed, but the ones that I listed are the main problem children. The others might balk every once in a while, but for the most part they won't make that big of a fuss. The biggest peon is definitely Ben Nelson; I don't even know why he's a Democrat.

 

The Republicans, on the other hand, will shill for any industry any time anywhere. Their entire ideology is based around corporatism. They're also all sexist Jesus Freaks and waging a war against science.

 

They actually are very different. The only people who don't see a difference are the libertarians, because the parties are fairly similar in all of the issues that libertarians' care the most about (the wars, the drug war, the bailout). When you look at all of the issues, they're VERY different, especially in the House of Representatives. Put it this way: A Democratic administration and controlled Congress will look FAR different than a Republican administration and controlled Congress. The poor will get [bleep]ed to oblivion under a Republican and the deficit and debt will grow exponentially. Ironic, considering all they seem to talk about is "we can't afford it!" all of the time. It's actually not ironic, as they want to make the deficit and debt so high that we have no choice but to cut Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. That's their goal, and it's why they're never fiscally responsible.

 

By the way, Arkansas is trying to pass a law that will prohibit the state from allowing illegals to access state services. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it (mostly because I have just heard about it and still lack a lot of information), but I think that it would be a thing of interest for you to know.

 

That's [cabbage]. What state services? Schooling? Access to driving on the roads? Lol. As I've stated before, they pay their fair share of taxes to use the schools, and it helps our economy even if they didn't. They also paid $13 billion into Social Security this past year and only collected $1 billion.

By the way, Arkansas is trying to pass a law that will prohibit the state from allowing illegals to access state services. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it (mostly because I have just heard about it and still lack a lot of information), but I think that it would be a thing of interest for you to know.

 

That's [cabbage]. What state services? Schooling? Access to driving on the roads? Lol. As I've stated before, they pay their fair share of taxes to use the schools, and it helps our economy even if they didn't. They also paid $13 billion into Social Security this past year and only collected $1 billion.

 

You know they probably don't pay taxes, given that they are illegal immigrants. Whether or not that means they should be denied basic services is another issue entirely, but still.

 

And I think we're drifting a bit off topic here. This is the UK election thread remember, lets at least try to [bleep] about our corrupt politicians here, not american ones.

By the way, Arkansas is trying to pass a law that will prohibit the state from allowing illegals to access state services. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it (mostly because I have just heard about it and still lack a lot of information), but I think that it would be a thing of interest for you to know.

 

That's [cabbage]. What state services? Schooling? Access to driving on the roads? Lol. As I've stated before, they pay their fair share of taxes to use the schools, and it helps our economy even if they didn't. They also paid $13 billion into Social Security this past year and only collected $1 billion.

 

You know they probably don't pay taxes, given that they are illegal immigrants. Whether or not that means they should be denied basic services is another issue entirely, but still.

 

And I think we're drifting a bit off topic here. This is the UK election thread remember, lets at least try to [bleep] about our corrupt politicians here, not american ones.

 

Yeah, sorry for the tangent. And no, they actually do pay taxes except for federal ones. They pay most state and local taxes.

I should be going to college tomorrow morning, but I'll just see how that works out :P Might be some interesting discussion on the results, though, but I don't want to miss out on watching the results live :D

 

Today I realised there's nobody worse you can argue with about politics than your sick Grandfather who takes The Sun to be the 'only paper that tells the truth.' I kinda tried to say that I don't trust The Sun but he didn't really want to know, and I only managed to convince him that since I'm voting Lib dem (I'm not, though, I just don't want hastle from them all >.<) It's kinda like a vote for the Conservatives since I said the Lib Dems would side with the Conservatives... T_T I'll be happy when it's over and I'm not being told all the time that 'we have to get rid of that bloody Brown'.

 

Not voted yet, since I'm still in college, but I'm definitely going to. ^_^

 

You do realise its almost a certainty we are going to have a hung parliament and under existing law if we do have a hung parliament the existing prime minister will remain in the roll of prime minister, jsut obv a bit less powerful due to lack of majority.

That's what I'm hoping for, but I've realised arguing politics with your grandad is a big no-no :mellow:

 

Voted! Now we just have to wait and see. :D

In an ideal world I'd wanna see Lib Dems win and Clegg as pm.

Realistically Gordon still pm in a hung parliament where labour n lib dems work together n stop tories fecking everything up is fine by me.

I mean I don't really object to any of the Labour policies, I jsut don't have a hugely invested interest in them either; where as I actually like lib dem ones and dislike tory ones

Who's going to be watching which Election programme, if any? I'm thinking of alternating between Channel 4's Alternative Election night, seeing as I love Charlie Brooker, and of course, the BBC, for a bit of serious Dimbleby. And of course recording Outnumbered ;)

 

I think i'll watch C4 as well, mainly because David Mitchell is involved and he is hilarious :smile:

In an ideal world I'd wanna see Lib Dems win and Clegg as pm.

Realistically Gordon still pm in a hung parliament where labour n lib dems work together n stop tories fecking everything up is fine by me.

I mean I don't really object to any of the Labour policies, I jsut don't have a hugely invested interest in them either; where as I actually like lib dem ones and dislike tory ones

 

This is my stance, I don't think I could stand a Conservative government, I could stand a Labour government however, and I would fully support a Liberal Democrat government.

In an ideal world I'd wanna see Lib Dems win and Clegg as pm.

Realistically Gordon still pm in a hung parliament where labour n lib dems work together n stop tories fecking everything up is fine by me.

I mean I don't really object to any of the Labour policies, I jsut don't have a hugely invested interest in them either; where as I actually like lib dem ones and dislike tory ones

 

This is my stance, I don't think I could stand a Conservative government, I could stand a Labour government however, and I would fully support a Liberal Democrat government.

 

 

I third this. I just cannot stand the conservatives.

I don't want another Labour government.

Today I realised there's nobody worse you can argue with about politics than your sick Grandfather who takes The Sun to be the 'only paper that tells the truth.' I kinda tried to say that I don't trust The Sun but he didn't really want to know

 

Here's why you shouldn't trust The Sun <Link Removed>

 

For those who can't click on the link, I have copied the text below:

 

<[picture of 16 topless women posing together>

 

SIXTEEN Page 3 Girls in all their glory represent the very image of freedom in this country.

 

But if Labour or the Lib Dems win the election, this could be the last time they are allowed to pose together.

 

MPs Harriet Harman and Lynne Featherstone will move swiftly to change the law and ban Page 3 forever.

 

Our national treasures - who even enjoy the Royal seal of approval from our future King Prince Charles - will be no more.

 

And at a stroke the very liberties that put the Great into Great Britain will be torn asunder.

 

The radical ideas of the 17th-century philosopher John Locke helped shape our freedoms enshrined in the Bill of Rights and, later, America's Constitution.

 

Lib Dem frontbencher Featherstone was cheered by women's rights activists when she declared she would "love to take on Page 3".

 

But our Poppy said: "The basis of Lockean thought is his theory of the Contract of Government, under which all political power is a trust for the benefit of the people.

 

"His thinking underpins our ideas of national identity and society. Please don't let those who seek to ban our beauty win. Vote to save Page 3!"

 

 

 

Here are my problems with this unbelievable article:

 

#1 Neither Labour nor the Lib Dems have a policy on Page 3 girls. It does not grace their manifestos. They would not act swiftly to ban it. This is just a lie.

#2 Are they seriously comparing having topless girls in a newspaper with the Bill of Rights and the Constitution?

#3 They obviously think that all of their readers are retarded if this is going to sway their voting intentions. Why would you read something that patronises you so much?

 

It's the third issue that really gets me. Murdoch has complete contempt for his own readers. He herds them like cattle to the slaughter.

 

 

 

~~~

 

If the Lib Dems went into a coalition with Labour, I suspect that they'd want Gordon Brown to step down. He is too unpopular and the Lib Dems wouldn't want to be seen to be propping him up. Heck, even Labour want Gordon Brown to step down, on the basis of their various attempted coups over the last year.

 

 

 

Removed the link, even though they aren't the focus, nude links aren't allowed. - Danq

 

OK, but just to confirm, this is a real article. You can search Google for the link if you don't believe it (I wouldn't have believed it) - dusqi

Yeah, Brown is done no matter what. I still feel sorry for him, much like Matthew Yglesias:

 

Under the circumstances, its worth pointing out that whatever Browns flaws and despite the very real problems with the Labour government (Iraq, e.g.) hes largely being punished for an economic crisis he didnt cause, couldnt have stopped, and has actually handled quite well. The global financial meltdown was not unique to Britain and the United Kingdoms status as a country thats unusually exposed to the ups-and-downs of the financial industry is extremely longstanding. The country has mostly been suffering from bad luck.

#1 Neither Labour nor the Lib Dems have a policy on Page 3 girls. It does not grace their manifestos. They would not act swiftly to ban it. This is just a lie.

#2 Are they seriously comparing having topless girls in a newspaper with the Bill of Rights and the Constitution?

#3 They obviously think that all of their readers are retarded if this is going to sway their voting intentions. Why would you read something that patronises you so much?

 

It's the third issue that really gets me. Murdoch has complete contempt for his own readers. He herds them like cattle to the slaughter.

 

 

 

 

Sun readers are [developmentally delayed]ed, and will get swayed by this garbage. That is what makes it just so disgusting.

at least the BBC exit poll was reasonably crazy. I don't think i've ever seen an exit poll post-2000 that seems so simply bad in its design, and therefore limited in its value. I don't even see why it's being discussed in media outlets. Have past polls been accurate?