Why does Jagex get new skills so wrong?

[Will H]

Well, they are hosting a live Q&A for this skill. Maybe we can try to let them know what we do and don't like during this session (Wed 21st, 6pm BST) and actually know we're being acknowledged.

[Kiriyama]

Okay..

 

You try telling a playerbase what you are adding to a game. It'd never get released since there'd constantly being people disagreeing, wanting changes and so forth.

 

In the end, we'd hardly progress at all.

 

With any game, they try for content targeted to their target demographic, and unfortunately with a large online game like this, there's no way to appease everyone. This skill was aimed at those who like the idea of raiding dungeons and such, perhaps those who dislike it are outside this demographic.

 

If there is not enough constructive feedback, how can it be listened to?

You're kidding, right?

 

Let's just take one example: the penance trident. Some Jagex developer who obviously never plays RS more than he has to, creates this utterly useless item. A whole bunch of players complain that it is useless for maging. They respond by boosting its melee stats.

 

Please explain that to me?

 

It's just one of many, many examples.

 

Perhaps with that weapon, they were looking to give it a more all-round use, not only for Magic, but for some melee too. In the end, boosting the staff too much, a staff which is rather easily obtained I assume.

 

That and with a +17 to Magic attack and a chance to save runes..It hardly seems useless.

[Demoli]

The last 3 skills are a failure.... mmm....

 

Hunter: Underdeveloped for sure, but nothing to be deem as a "failure".

 

Summoning: Best skill in game imo, i can't imagine my RS career without it, i dont see a single flaw in this skill.

 

Dungeoneering: Mislabeled as a skill it is the closest thing as failure as you will get since firemaking, but i hold me further comments (and reviews) after batch 2 is released, just in case they will pull out a Summoning, which has gone from worse to best.

[Mecakoto]

If there is not enough constructive feedback, how can it be listened to?

You're kidding, right?

 

Let's just take one example: the penance trident. Some Jagex developer who obviously never plays RS more than he has to, creates this utterly useless item. A whole bunch of players complain that it is useless for maging. They respond by boosting its melee stats.

 

Please explain that to me?

 

It's just one of many, many examples.

 

You act as if Jagex doesn't listen to their players at all.

[Slayer_Jesse]

The last 3 skills are a failure.... mmm....

 

Hunter: Underdeveloped for sure, but nothing to be deem as a "failure".

 

Summoning: Best skill in game imo, i can't imagine my RS career without it, i dont see a single flaw in this skill.

 

Dungeoneering: Mislabeled as a skill it is the closest thing as failure as you will get since firemaking, but i hold me further comments (and reviews) after batch 2 is released, just in case they will pull out a Summoning, which has gone from worse to best.

WHEN THEY WERE RELEASED. i agree, summoning is now indispensable.

[999134]

hunter and summoning are great >.> hunter is ownage for cash and summoning for pvp and pvm

[Mecakoto]

The last 3 skills are a failure.... mmm....

 

Hunter: Underdeveloped for sure, but nothing to be deem as a "failure".

 

Summoning: Best skill in game imo, i can't imagine my RS career without it, i dont see a single flaw in this skill.

 

Dungeoneering: Mislabeled as a skill it is the closest thing as failure as you will get since firemaking, but i hold me further comments (and reviews) after batch 2 is released, just in case they will pull out a Summoning, which has gone from worse to best.

WHEN THEY WERE RELEASED. i agree, summoning is now indispensable.

 

Arguing the usefulness of a skill(s) on release is like arguing about the semantics of cheese. At least the one on cheese would be interesting when we got to pepperjack.

[qeltar]

You try telling a playerbase what you are adding to a game. It'd never get released since there'd constantly being people disagreeing, wanting changes and so forth.

 

In the end, we'd hardly progress at all.

Sorry, that's just not true. What you describe is EXACTLY what EVERY good software company does. In fact, it's what every good company of any sort strives for.

 

Perhaps with that weapon, they were looking to give it a more all-round use, not only for Magic, but for some melee too. In the end, boosting the staff too much, a staff which is rather easily obtained I assume.

 

That and with a +17 to Magic attack and a chance to save runes..It hardly seems useless.

It *is* useless, compared to alternatives that already existed or were in the development pipeline when it came out.

 

If the subject here was listening to customers, what were they saying? "Make it useful for maging" or "Boost its melee stats"?

[Obtaurian]

 

Belongs in rants next to all of the other crappy straight-outta-RSOF posts. I stopped taking you seriously at "last three skills."

[Kiriyama]

You try telling a playerbase what you are adding to a game. It'd never get released since there'd constantly being people disagreeing, wanting changes and so forth.

 

In the end, we'd hardly progress at all.

Sorry, that's just not true. What you describe is EXACTLY what EVERY good software company does. In fact, it's what every good company of any sort strives for.

 

Perhaps with that weapon, they were looking to give it a more all-round use, not only for Magic, but for some melee too. In the end, boosting the staff too much, a staff which is rather easily obtained I assume.

 

That and with a +17 to Magic attack and a chance to save runes..It hardly seems useless.

It *is* useless, compared to alternatives that already existed or were in the development pipeline when it came out.

 

If the subject here was listening to customers, what were they saying? "Make it useful for maging" or "Boost its melee stats"?

 

Firstly, could you name an online game with the amount of playstyles RuneScape has to back up your claim?

 

Perhaps it is not the best weapon compared to others, it looks to be extremely situation for those that cannot afford the others, but do you expect every piece of content updates to be the best and beat all the others before and after it? Seems a bit strange, again, no progression could happen there.

[Glove]

People would give more constructive feedback if they felt it was being listened to.

 

As for people being unhappy with things, that's because there is basically no interaction between customers and developers. The people writing content do what they want, and then act surprised when it isn't well received. It's a long repeated pattern at this point.

 

Look, I understand you dislike the way Jagex develops content and runs their business. That has been made abundantly clear as the major theme of almost all of your posts, particularly since dungeoneering was released. But I have to admit that it's beginning to irritate me that it seems like you believe that is the only way to view Jagex and the new skill, particularly if a person is intelligent and has the capacity for critical thought. I understand that you have a point of view and that you are arguing passionately for it, but debate is built upon accurate representation of fact, the principle of charity, and the ability to concede that there is room for more than view of things without necessarily being 'wrong.' There's been little of this on both sides of the debate.

 

I know there's been sniping from both sides, I don't think there's any value in laying blame for who started it first, but let's all try to be aware of the implications of what is being said by the words that are being chosen. Let's all of us try to respect each other and not make leading comments about people's intelligence based on the opinion they have.

 

Personally, I think dungeoneering does have a few problems, but none that can't be overcome in time. I'm not bothered by the skill (I'm going to take for granted that skill is the proper category dungeoneering falls into for ease of communication and to stay on point) having problems on release; most of Jagex's releases have problems out of the gate. I don't have a problem with dungeoneering being classified as a skill, even though it has quite a bit in common with the minigame format found within Runescape. I think a lot of the problems (i.e. dungeoneering being too isolated and not directly involved in other skills, only have a singular location, the disparity between reward costs and the dungeoneering level required for them, and so on) will be addressed in the coming weeks with subsequent additions of content and tweaking of currently available content. I'm optimistic because there's a lot of room for expansion.

[qeltar]

But I have to admit that it's beginning to irritate me that it seems like you believe that is the only way to view Jagex and the new skill, particularly if a person is intelligent and has the capacity for critical thought.

Well, sorry if I've given that impression. I certainly think it is possible to be happy with how Jagex does things and have the capacity for critical thought, but most of the responses I get are simply flames from people who are offended by the mere existence of people who disagree with Jagex's way of doing business. And that's pretty irritating as well.

 

And usually when I list specific examples showing they are out of touch, nobody really has much of a response to it (cf the penance trident).

[Obtaurian]

But I have to admit that it's beginning to irritate me that it seems like you believe that is the only way to view Jagex and the new skill, particularly if a person is intelligent and has the capacity for critical thought.

Well, sorry if I've given that impression. I certainly think it is possible to be happy with how Jagex does things and have the capacity for critical thought, but most of the responses I get are simply flames from people who are offended by the mere existence of people who disagree with Jagex's way of doing business. And that's pretty irritating as well.

 

And usually when I list specific examples showing they are out of touch, nobody really has much of a response to it (cf the penance trident).

 

The problem, Qeltar, is that you often do the same thing exact thing you say your opponents do: you don't respond to arguments. You're also a lot like MHL in that you're somewhat of a broken record. Yes, we know you dislike this week's update, and we know why you dislike it, and we know what you're going to say, and it's getting very old. No one is arguing that dungeoneering is perfect as it is. We all know that it needs tweaking. We know.

 

EDIT: The penance trident is entirely decorative, IMO. People complained that the armor set effect was underwhelming, too, but in the end they're just minigame rewards that show dedication to a game rather than serve some great purpose. Though, the armor set does have its niche.

[Omali]

and you feel the need to refute every point i make to draw attention to yourself. that's all ill say.

 

I like your wording, says a lot about you. Not "You feel the need to lie" or "you feel the need to twist reality" just that I refuted your post. And of course it was to draw attention to myself, because anyone who disagrees with you must be an attention seeker who is simply riding your popularity coattails.

 

and you feel the need to refute every point i make to draw attention to yourself. that's all ill say.

Player A: Makes absurd statements.

Player B: Refutes said statements.

Player A: "lol nerd"

 

Remember when we could have legitimate discussions?

 

No, but I have been playing that game for over five years running. I try to buy the latest edition each year, and the 2009 edition came with emotes.

[qeltar]

The problem, Qeltar, is that you often do the same thing exact thing you say your opponents do: you don't respond to arguments.

I respond to them to the extent that is practical. I understand that I am opinionated and an easy target. But when every time I post something I get 10 or 15 responses, and then 10 or 15 responses to my replies, I simply can't keep up with all of it. So I try to respond to those who make good arguments or are at least decent enough to avoid overt flaming.

 

This isn't a job and I'm not under any obligation to reply to every post by every person who wants to take a pot shot at me, especially when many of them are just ad hominems or repeats of prior comments. I'm also starting to make more liberal use of the ignore feature here, because I'm not going to waste my time dealing with people who make a pattern of just posting flat insults.

[Emmentail]

Instead of arguing over who responds to what can we please get back to the original topic?

 

Hunter: Massively underdeveloped, took about 6 months to create and it shows badly, still! There have been no major additions to this skill since it was brought out. The only decent thing I like about this skill is bare-handed impling catching.

 

Summoning: Over-hyped and badly released. So many alterations were made it was hilarious.

 

Dungeoneering: A large update, but once again the skill is HALF FINISHED. Why bother leveling past 69 when your prestige is stuck at that level. You would be better off leveling other skills and waiting for the second half of this minigame to be released.

 

Jagex really need to sign up 1k long-standing players to Beta testing with non-disclosure agreements. I would solve so many issues regarding their updates.

[Bladewing]

You seem to have forgotten that implings were an update to hunter :-|

 

And you can't expect them to come out with a "finished" skill. Imagine going back to when runescape came out and saying "omfg no level 50+ equips wear r abby whips dis skill sux."

[Emmentail]

Implings only became a decent update when they added bare-handed catching RS but yes I concede they did add them and Puro Puro.

 

Back in the day of RS when there weren't hundreds of thousands of people with level 99 skills I would agree with you and say ok, bring out the skill to level 60 and work with it from there. But in this culture of grind-grind must be the best I fail to see the point in releasing a skill where within a week people have reach a level where there is no greater content to be found!

 

The only consolation of still leveling this skill is for the vastly overpriced rewards.

[Krampell]

Sure, every skill is bound to have some issues when it is released. That is because jagex really doesn't get opinions from the players until it is actually released.

That's how things work. You need to get information from what people think before you can perfect it.

[swordwarior]

You seem to have forgotten that implings were an update to hunter :-|

 

And you can't expect them to come out with a "finished" skill. Imagine going back to when runescape came out and saying "omfg no level 50+ equips wear r abby whips dis skill sux."

 

I don't expect them to come up with a finished skill, infact i believe that construction was amazingly put together and that is something that likely wasn't normal to happen. The thing i do have problems with is this new fad of releasing half a skill at a time. They did it with summoning, and now apparently this skill. Even more upsetting is the insane amount of time they took to develop this skill. If they release it next update they may save some face, but i'm not sure the content were currently looking at is 2 years worth. Part of me wonders, since this was orginaly a seperate game, and they say they always have a skill in development that there may be another skill in the pipeline that started before they decided to put this in rune.

If not, im at a loss at what to say.

Although there was great updates during the upgrade year, I can't argue that there weren't some were great updates. This year seems like they are still puting out sketchy content. I was under the impression that they focused alot of attention on this skill, yet it does fit the profile of minigame, and is only half the skill. I personally just don't see 2 years worth of a skill.

[RSBDavid]

Maybe every skill doesn't have to provide some reward. Maybe there is this thing called "fun". You are looking at every skill like it has to have a specific purpose which enhances game play. You should enjoy the skills otherwise you need to go outside.

 

Hunter -> designed to be relaxing

Summoning -> One of the best skills since slayer.

Construction -> Money drainer and a way to show off your creativity.

[Obtaurian]

I like how people are bashing summoning because of the way it was released, as if it's not one of the most useful skills we have, if not the most useful.

[krimi]

If it's your opinion, then state so in your subtitle.

[Myweponsg00d]

But I have to admit that it's beginning to irritate me that it seems like you believe that is the only way to view Jagex and the new skill, particularly if a person is intelligent and has the capacity for critical thought.

Well, sorry if I've given that impression. I certainly think it is possible to be happy with how Jagex does things and have the capacity for critical thought, but most of the responses I get are simply flames from people who are offended by the mere existence of people who disagree with Jagex's way of doing business. And that's pretty irritating as well.

 

And usually when I list specific examples showing they are out of touch, nobody really has much of a response to it (cf the penance trident).

 

I have responded to many of your specific examples in the other thread. For example you say that dungeoneering is a mini game because nobody can tell you how it is different from SC. I point out a simple fact that SC is played against other players. And then you dont respond to my refutement of your ridiculous claims. People dont like to refute your claims because when we do respond to them, you dont acknowledge the fact that you were mistaken.

 

The penance trident: it is a bad item, but there are plenty of bad items in runescape. If the only content we had was "the best" stuff, the game would probably be a little bland. There are plenty of good magic staves in the game, and there are also other BA items which are useful. If they introduce too many really useful things from BA, then suddenly BA starts to become a mandatory mini game.

[Slayer_Jesse]

Instead of arguing over who responds to what can we please get back to the original topic?

 

Hunter: Massively underdeveloped, took about 6 months to create and it shows badly, still! There have been no major additions to this skill since it was brought out. The only decent thing I like about this skill is bare-handed impling catching.

 

Summoning: Over-hyped and badly released. So many alterations were made it was hilarious.

 

Dungeoneering: A large update, but once again the skill is HALF FINISHED. Why bother leveling past 69 when your prestige is stuck at that level. You would be better off leveling other skills and waiting for the second half of this minigame to be released.

 

Jagex really need to sign up 1k long-standing players to Beta testing with non-disclosure agreements. I would solve so many issues regarding their updates.

somebody who gets what im trying to say and isnt flaming?! IMPOSSIBLE!

 

 

 

Maybe every skill doesn't have to provide some reward. Maybe there is this thing called "fun". You are looking at every skill like it has to have a specific purpose which enhances game play. You should enjoy the skills otherwise you need to go outside.

 

Hunter -> designed to be relaxing

Summoning -> One of the best skills since slayer.

Construction -> Money drainer and a way to show off your creativity.

 

that argument would be valid, if said skills were actually "fun". hunter is a boring grind, summoning is again, another grind (tho some of the familiars are fun) and no one was talking about construction, because that was a skill done right.