Dungeoneering Leeching verse Dieing

[Viv]

As you probably know when dungeoneering it is a 14% loss for each death that happens..........Even the best of players die from crazy rooms like monolith rooms or rooms with 133 shades/forgottenmages/and skeletons at the same time or getting owned by shadowforger or a different boss. However thier is currently no exp penalty for leeching so a player could stand around doing nothing for most of the dungeon however have 0 deaths and thierfore get better expirience than a key runner that died once.

 

and 14% on a 5:5 large dungeon is the difference between 48k exp and 53k+ exp.......

 

If a player has died during a dungeon they are less likely to take risk such they may not attempt to fight the boss or attempt to help clear certain rooms and just let other people do it for them.

 

If the deaths add up 3 or 4 then the expirience/hr is pathetic for all the time spent in the dungeon.....

 

the penalty starts to curve around 8 deaths its 79% and apparently it doesnt get higher ....82% for 16 deaths according to a dungeoneer that died on purpose to see..

 

Shouldnt the death penalty go higher for more deaths ????? and start out much lower for the deaths that are bound to happen *accidently walking in a dragon room* *lagging on lexus book barrage attack*

 

if the first death was 1% 2nd death around 5% and 3rd death was 7% and then 10% after it would make dungeon a bit less annoying and have better avarage expirience rates....

 

ITs not that hard to be a survivor in a 5:5 large but not doing anything person shouldnt get more expirience than someone that tried the whole way through the dungeon but maybe didnt have enough prayer..

 

Maybe they could punish inactivity with deaths somehow if inactive 5mins+ doing nothing?

 

Discuss.

[Toad]

I dont see why deaths should effect your xp if i'm honest, I rarely die and well I don't leech but if the boss is 1/8th hp and I have no food left i'll gate out and wait for it to die if the team is comfortable but I think that's only happened to me once!

[schmuall]

I think they could very easily have a method of determining how effective you are as a team member: Ie. base it off xp earnt while in the dungeon. If you're predominately gaining xp that isn't combat, you should also be making trades with other dungeoneers.

 

By fiddling around with this principle, you could (in most cases) work out if someone was just leeching and therefore impose a punishment on them.

[xpx]

I think deaths should have a smaller impact on the overall experiance, or you should be allowed to die once with no penalty and then propose a harsh xp penalty(25%) after the first death. The reson i say that is that usually deaths happen because of lagging at unfortuanate places or because of the player trying to do everything to help the team. At the moment, alot of players semi leech in a way that they never enter guardian rooms before atleast 2 other people are inside- making them less likely to die. Add to that thet all they do is fight or hoard food into their familiar(who really needs 2 packs of food?), the penalty severely compromises team playing at this moment. On the other side of the table, it's actually another point why soloing is'nt as terrible as teaming, because dieing only gives 400 xp penalty compared to the 6k xp you lose on large dungeons.

[Alistair]

Eh, what I'm worried about is that deaths are meant to be countered in some ways by skilling. For example, if your prayer is low, then you drink a rejuvenation potion or if your stats have been reduced by the Unholy Cursebearer, you would drink a stat restore. If the death penalty was minimal (mostly referring to the proposed 1% for the first death), then that would further reduce the need for these lesser used potions. Or similarly, the use of fishing and cooking and making armour would not be worth the time given how painless it is to die. I think the xp reduction is also a slight compromise for not having any of your items lost (imagine how hard it would be if you dropped your armour in Plane-Freezer's boss room).

 

On the other hand, yes, there is definitely a concern that the death penalty compromises team playing, with people acting selfishly to avoid deaths (as opposed to dungeoneering sensibly and avoiding suicide missions as was probably intended). Again, as mentioned, this is most likely the case with large dungeons - I don't particularly care about dying in small dungeons and always return immediately to the place of action. But at present the penalty is large enough for people to readily quit after dying or skulk around doing precious little to avoid incurring further penalties. I think it should be reduced, but not by a whole lot. I always disagree with the idea of 1% because that trivialises death; in a dangerous dungeon, I think there should be a somewhat noticeable difference between someone who survives and someone who does not, but not an overly dramatic difference. Maybe 8%.

 

I wouldn't say it's that easy to determine who is a leecher. Using the xp method proposed as an example - if a level 60 and a level 130 hit the same amount of damage in the entire dungeon (ceteris parabis), you can tell who's leeching, but the method cannot. People are also assigned roles in dungeoneering, so the 'tool guy' would naturally gain the most xp, and there are things which do not gain any or much xp and are important to dungeoneering - things like doing the guardian sphere puzzle, counting down for the lever puzzle, healing other people and dropping important resources at base spring to mind. Measuring it by trades would be strange because dropping is a more efficient way of trading in any case. I would suggest that the only reason that punishing leeching is not already implemented into the game is because it's so damn hard to do so fairly.

 

That's just how I feel at the moment, feel free to convince me otherwise :P

[schmuall]

Eh, what I'm worried about is that deaths are meant to be countered in some ways by skilling. For example, if your prayer is low, then you drink a rejuvenation potion or if your stats have been reduced by the Unholy Cursebearer, you would drink a stat restore. If the death penalty was minimal (mostly referring to the proposed 1% for the first death), then that would further reduce the need for these lesser used potions. Or similarly, the use of fishing and cooking and making armour would not be worth the time given how painless it is to die. I think the xp reduction is also a slight compromise for not having any of your items lost (imagine how hard it would be if you dropped your armour in Plane-Freezer's boss room).

 

On the other hand, yes, there is definitely a concern that the death penalty compromises team playing, with people acting selfishly to avoid deaths (as opposed to dungeoneering sensibly and avoiding suicide missions as was probably intended). Again, as mentioned, this is most likely the case with large dungeons - I don't particularly care about dying in small dungeons and always return immediately to the place of action. But at present the penalty is large enough for people to readily quit after dying or skulk around doing precious little to avoid incurring further penalties. I think it should be reduced, but not by a whole lot. I always disagree with the idea of 1% because that trivialises death; in a dangerous dungeon, I think there should be a somewhat noticeable difference between someone who survives and someone who does not, but not an overly dramatic difference. Maybe 8%.

 

I wouldn't say it's that easy to determine who is a leecher. Using the xp method proposed as an example - if a level 60 and a level 130 hit the same amount of damage in the entire dungeon (ceteris parabis), you can tell who's leeching, but the method cannot. People are also assigned roles in dungeoneering, so the 'tool guy' would naturally gain the most xp, and there are things which do not gain any or much xp and are important to dungeoneering - things like doing the guardian sphere puzzle, counting down for the lever puzzle, healing other people and dropping important resources at base spring to mind. Measuring it by trades would be strange because dropping is a more efficient way of trading in any case. I would suggest that the only reason that punishing leeching is not already implemented into the game is because it's so damn hard to do so fairly.

 

That's just how I feel at the moment, feel free to convince me otherwise :P

 

Yeah, sorry, I obviously haven't dungeoneered as much as you have (got my last 8 levels through tears lol). I was just putting forward a very basic system. Maybe it would be possible to have a "resources used by other people" counter (though I suspect this would be very complicated). Or total value dropped that was picked up by other users.

[Youmu]

Deaths should NOT be a penalty, imo. In fact, there should be a bonus for not dying, and it decreases every time you die.

 

Say it would be +10%, and each time you die it deducts 1% from this. After 10 deaths, it stays at 0%, not going into the negatives.

[timmmmm83]

Deaths should NOT be a penalty, imo. In fact, there should be a bonus for not dying, and it decreases every time you die.

 

Say it would be +10%, and each time you die it deducts 1% from this. After 10 deaths, it stays at 0%, not going into the negatives.

:thumbup: Good idea.

 

The death penalty now is indeed ridiculous, you are punished for being a team player...

[All_Is_Great]

If dieing gives no penalty, what's the point of having food? Armour? We'd just rush through the dungeons w/o preparing and no penalty! Yay! :mellow:

[Zachneap]

If dieing gives no penalty, what's the point of having food? Armour? We'd just rush through the dungeons w/o preparing and no penalty! Yay! :mellow:

which is why i think we need a balance. i prefer one free death because it gives you a degree of safety yet doesn't allow you to just rush around willy nilly.

[tortilliachp]

Deaths should NOT be a penalty, imo. In fact, there should be a bonus for not dying, and it decreases every time you die.

 

Say it would be +10%, and each time you die it deducts 1% from this. After 10 deaths, it stays at 0%, not going into the negatives.

:thumbup: Good idea.

 

The death penalty now is indeed ridiculous, you are punished for being a team player...

 

quite the contrary, you get punished for not acting as a team. if you move around and act as a team (the most effective strategy on larger dungeons) you will not die. then you are always 5 to fight everything in each room, which doesn't pose much of a difficulty as you pile the most dangerous targets etc. you share food, you move around safely and effectively.

 

It's fine as it is now. you can gatestone at any time. if you d/c, there's nothing a game developer can do to save you. i know it sucks, but that's life. if you don't get penalized for d/cing, ending process on the game application becomes an effective strategy in a ton of situations (red-xing, as it used to be called in the pking world).

 

If you change the death system, you penalize those who work as a team, and you remove major parts of the strategy of the game: how to avoid death through the use of food, Armour, running, hugging, not entering a room when not prepared etc.

 

 

The attitudes in this topic sound awfully like frustration that you die, and envy that others avoid death through making their teams good team, instead of nonfunctional teams. It all starts with organizing your team once you enter a dungeon; being a leader of the team.

[xpx]

Deaths should NOT be a penalty, imo. In fact, there should be a bonus for not dying, and it decreases every time you die.

 

Say it would be +10%, and each time you die it deducts 1% from this. After 10 deaths, it stays at 0%, not going into the negatives.

:thumbup: Good idea.

 

The death penalty now is indeed ridiculous, you are punished for being a team player...

 

quite the contrary, you get punished for not acting as a team. if you move around and act as a team (the most effective strategy on larger dungeons) you will not die. then you are always 5 to fight everything in each room, which doesn't pose much of a difficulty as you pile the most dangerous targets etc. you share food, you move around safely and effectively.

 

It's fine as it is now. you can gatestone at any time. if you d/c, there's nothing a game developer can do to save you. i know it sucks, but that's life. if you don't get penalized for d/cing, ending process on the game application becomes an effective strategy in a ton of situations (red-xing, as it used to be called in the pking world).

 

If you change the death system, you penalize those who work as a team, and you remove major parts of the strategy of the game: how to avoid death through the use of food, Armour, running, hugging, not entering a room when not prepared etc.

 

 

The attitudes in this topic sound awfully like frustration that you die, and envy that others avoid death through making their teams good team, instead of nonfunctional teams. It all starts with organizing your team once you enter a dungeon; being a leader of the team.

You are joking, right? because if you aren't, you propably know nothing about dungeoneering. Let me give you a small clue here- a good team is when everyone does their job and does it well. You just assume(and it is true with rubbish teams) that everyone fights monsters. More often than not, when doing dungeons with any efficency there are people who specialize on other things than just dull killing, since anyone can do that. In a proper rush there are 2 people specially prepared to either open key doors or open skill doors, and more often than not, those people risk their safety for the sake of others and are much more likely to die. More often than not, people die because of unfortuanate accidents, like failing a skill door twice in a row or getting comboed in a monolith room, or even comboed while rushing, and those deaths have nothing to do with teamwork but being the most useful you could be for the team. This is all why i think allowing one death(atleast on 5:5 large dungeons) is a just thing to do- there are always people doing more for the team and there is no reason to punish them for doing so. It's either that or just divide the death penalty between all the party members.

[strilmus]

How does one quantify the ability to solve ice skating puzzles? I often end up in teams that are completely hopeless at them. :D

[tortilliachp]

Deaths should NOT be a penalty, imo. In fact, there should be a bonus for not dying, and it decreases every time you die.

 

Say it would be +10%, and each time you die it deducts 1% from this. After 10 deaths, it stays at 0%, not going into the negatives.

:thumbup: Good idea.

 

The death penalty now is indeed ridiculous, you are punished for being a team player...

 

quite the contrary, you get punished for not acting as a team. if you move around and act as a team (the most effective strategy on larger dungeons) you will not die. then you are always 5 to fight everything in each room, which doesn't pose much of a difficulty as you pile the most dangerous targets etc. you share food, you move around safely and effectively.

 

It's fine as it is now. you can gatestone at any time. if you d/c, there's nothing a game developer can do to save you. i know it sucks, but that's life. if you don't get penalized for d/cing, ending process on the game application becomes an effective strategy in a ton of situations (red-xing, as it used to be called in the pking world).

 

If you change the death system, you penalize those who work as a team, and you remove major parts of the strategy of the game: how to avoid death through the use of food, Armour, running, hugging, not entering a room when not prepared etc.

 

 

The attitudes in this topic sound awfully like frustration that you die, and envy that others avoid death through making their teams good team, instead of nonfunctional teams. It all starts with organizing your team once you enter a dungeon; being a leader of the team.

You are joking, right? because if you aren't, you propably know nothing about dungeoneering. Let me give you a small clue here- a good team is when everyone does their job and does it well. You just assume(and it is true with rubbish teams) that everyone fights monsters. More often than not, when doing dungeons with any efficency there are people who specialize on other things than just dull killing, since anyone can do that. In a proper rush there are 2 people specially prepared to either open key doors or open skill doors, and more often than not, those people risk their safety for the sake of others and are much more likely to die. More often than not, people die because of unfortuanate accidents, like failing a skill door twice in a row or getting comboed in a monolith room, or even comboed while rushing, and those deaths have nothing to do with teamwork but being the most useful you could be for the team. This is all why i think allowing one death(atleast on 5:5 large dungeons) is a just thing to do- there are always people doing more for the team and there is no reason to punish them for doing so. It's either that or just divide the death penalty between all the party members.

 

I think dungeoneering witha team of people now all top 20 on the ranks would show me something about efficiency. Even the key runner, and the tool man will be killing creatures in ghost rooms, in obelisk rooms, in guard rooms.

 

more often than not, you give or leave food to your runners, who take more damage. more often than not you use food on them when you see them on low hp. more often than not your individual abilities may kill you, if they are lacking, your team can compensate to a large extent. if you don't ask for help from your team, with food, with healing etc, you're not working as a good team member when you are the one taking more risk.

 

No, it's about taking risk, but not too much risk. that the interesting dimension for those who play for efficiency, when the most efficient exp strategy isn't to storm in without control; when you die, you slow down your team, making you a worse rusher. this dimension of strategy separates quick agility training from quick agility training: using your brain, not just quick, coordinated clicks.

 

How does one quantify the ability to solve ice skating puzzles? I often end up in teams that are completely hopeless at them. :D

 

IQ. it's a simple logic puzzle, just like what the iq test is designed to test. I do believe all the skating puzzles can be solved most effectively by getting onto the first of the tiles, then following a path from there through the rest , without starting over by going onto the ice by the doors to get to the next tile.

[xpx]

But still the fact remains, should the best guy on the team get less experiance? and if so, what's the point of putting your neck on the line, when there are always people never prepared to do so, and the most demanding reason to do so is because of the severe death penalty, even if you die once. Also, it's not always the fact that you do die more or that people don't support you, it's the fact that the likelyhood of dieing for those people is times greater than it is for the others, and there is nothing to compensate for it. With a one death allowance, again, these problems would wanish.

[Mecakoto]

I have never been on a team where this is an issue so I can't speak on it, but I will say that I think the death system is fine as is. Giving a "grace" death would make most of the bosses far easier and giving a bonus for not dying is exactly like giving someone a reward for getting a math problem right.

[warren211]

obviously there has to be enough of an xp penalty to prevent people from kamikaze dungeoneering as a more efficient method of getting xp than using time to get supplies. I'm sure people will find ways/calculations to make that possible. But I agree, 14% for occasional deaths that are bound to occur seem like tremendous slashes to xp rates. Unless that was jagex's intention: to make it so that the best xp only comes if you get a rare but remarkable 0 deaths on high floors.

[Youmu]

If dieing gives no penalty, what's the point of having food? Armour? We'd just rush through the dungeons w/o preparing and no penalty! Yay! :mellow:

But still, dying makes you respawn back at the smuggler's room, which can be quite frustrating in large dungeons (especially with no gatestone).

 

And sometimes there are things like monolith rooms and the rock maze. Also, very tough bosses (500+) are bound to kill you.

[Viv]

If dieing gives no penalty, what's the point of having food? Armour? We'd just rush through the dungeons w/o preparing and no penalty! Yay! :mellow:

But still, dying makes you respawn back at the smuggler's room, which can be quite frustrating in large dungeons (especially with no gatestone).

 

And sometimes there are things like monolith rooms and the rock maze. Also, very tough bosses (500+) are bound to kill you.

hit by falling rocks, lever room when someone lags, its reduculous those things can zap half ur hp....most bosses arent too hard with proper food/gatestones...