Maul vs CLS vs CR

[TheAncient]

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I realize there is another post about this. However, it doesn't discuss the maul as much. Also, I'd like to bring in actual numbers instead of just speculation.

 

Thought this was relevant in light of the DPS calculator I made (see other post on GenDis). It's not entirely accurate but it gives a reasonable estimate for DPS.

 

Before I begin, let's start with some basic intuition about the Dungeoneering weapon choices. These weapons are very acutely balanced, with no clear winner among the three. The best weapon is highly situational. Rapier is fast, but less accurate. It is better for situations in which you hit most of the time. Maul is slow, but accurate and has KO potential. It is better for situations in which you want accuracy or to surprise an opponent with a large hit. The longsword is a balance between the two.

 

LOW-DEFENSE

First, let's compare the DPS (damage per second) of the weapons against 0 defense, to get a sense of Low-Defense situations. These values are calculated assuming Turmoil, Ex Str Pots, Max Str, regular strength gear (bandos etc), which is the typical gear when fighting things with low defense (i.e. slayer)

 

CRapier w/ Def: 115 DPS (100% Acc)

CLS w/ Def: 100.7 DPS (100% Acc)

CMaul: 95.4 DPS (100% Acc)

Whip w/ Def: 101.25 DPS (100% Acc)

 

Rapier is the clear winner by roughly 15%. What is surprising is that Cmaul and CLS have comparable DPS. However, CMaul's actual DPS is slightly lower than the DPS listed because of the death-loss effect (you can't hit your max hit when your opponent has less hitpoints than your max hit). Maul and CLS are both worse than whip.

 

MEDIUM-DEFENSE

Now, let's consider Medium defense situations. These apply to cases such as dangerous PvP, where most people are wearing rune, or when your opponent is wearing low-defense armor such as Karil's or Ahrim's. I assumed the defense value was around 225, and that the opponent is praying turmoil. Regular and not extreme potions were used for these calculations. Also assume max stats for both players. You are wearing rune and neitiznot.

 

CRapier w/ Shield: 32 DPS (30.8% Acc)

CRapier w/ Def: 36.6 DPS (34.36% Acc)

 

CLS w/ Shield: 33 DPS (36.14% Acc)

CLS w/ Def: 37 DPS (39.5% Acc)

 

CMaul: 38.95 DPS (43.75% Acc)

 

Whip w/ Shield: 26.82 DPS (28.73% Acc)

Whip w/ Def: 30.82 DPS (32.1% Acc)

 

Assuming the results are accurate, CMaul is the winner (marginally) for DPS in dangerous PvP situations. Furthermore, it has the highest variance in its hits, making it a better KO weapon. Of course, these data neglect the 1-hand vs 2-hand benefit of having a shield, which may or may not be neglible in PKing, especially when defenders are annoying to lose and KO potential is the name of the game. Also, I didn't take into account vengeance. Veng is extremely powerful against the CMaul.

CLS appears to be about the same DPS as the rapier. However, the CLS is worse for combo's since its speed is a problem (2 eats instead of 1).

 

HIGH-DEFENSE

Finally, let's investigate safe PvP situations in which your opponent is tanked out. Let's assume he has maximum stats, extreme pots, turmoil, and tank gear (at ~350 Melee defense). You are also wearing tank gear, and thus non-strength boosting gear. You have turmoil and extremes.

 

CRapier w/ Shield: 23.7 DPS (21.4% Acc)

CRapier w/ Def: 26.15 DPS (23.8% Acc)

 

CLS w/ Shield: 24.4 DPS (25.0% Acc)

CLS w/ Def: 26.44 DPS (27.4% Acc)

 

CMaul: 27.9 DPS (30.35% Acc)

 

Whip w/ Shield: 19.87 DPS (47.7% Acc)

Whip w/ Def: 22.00 DPS (22.3% Acc))

 

CMaul comes out as a winner, but again only marginally, and the cost of losing the shield slot which is more important in safe PvP (because that's where you see Spirit shields and DFS's). CLS appears to be about the same DPS as the rapier. However, the CLS is much worse for KOing due to its speed (2 eats instead of 1). I would say CLS is slightly better for hybriding if you switch often.

 

SITUATION-SPECIFIC

WATERFIENDS

[hide]

Is maul significantly better then ss/zs at wf?

 

This is really hard to say because we don't know WF defense. But if we assume WF has 0 defense against crush (which isn't entirely true):

 

Assumptions: Turmoil(@23%+ Str boost) + OL + standard WF gear

SS DPS: 91.25

ZS DPS: 87.29

CMaul DPS: 87.5

 

Now, let's assume WF's have about 100 defense (which is true because we know WF's boost turmoil to 29%. 14% of 100 is about 29% - 15%.). Let's also assume They have about 50 crush defense. I picked 50 because it calibrated the ZS accuracy to be about 95% which is roughly true with experience.

 

Assumptions: Turmoil(@23%+ Str boost) + OL + standard WF gear; WF has 100 defense level and 50 crush defense bonus

SS DPS: 84.5

ZS DPS: 83.6

CMaul DPS: 87.5 (~100% accuracy!)

 

If these assumptions are accurate, then CMaul's DPS is about 5% higher than ZS/SS, which are about the same.

It's really arguable whether or not CMaul's DPS is really higher for WF. I can't say for sure, but it definitely isn't an obvious improvement. In reality, since WF doesn't have 0 defense, CMaul's DPS is slightly higher. However, you also have to take into account the death-loss effect (you often don't hit your max hit as a killing blow, wasting time and DPS. this affects slow weapons more than fast weapons).

[/hide]

BOSS HUNTING

[hide]

From the Medium Defense Numbers:

CRapier w/ Shield: 32 DPS (30.8% Acc)

CRapier w/ Def: 36.6 DPS (34.36% Acc)

 

CLS w/ Shield: 33 DPS (36.14% Acc)

CLS w/ Def: 37 DPS (39.5% Acc)

 

CMaul: 38.95 DPS (43.75% Acc)

 

Whip w/ Shield: 26.82 DPS (28.73% Acc)

Whip w/ Def: 30.82 DPS (32.1% Acc)

 

A note can be made here about PvM. Examine the accuracy values. They are, on a rough estimate, about the same (if not, slightly less) the accuracy against Graardor and Kril. It is hard to say for sure the exact rank order against these bosses, since exact defense values for them are unknown. Either way, all of them are better than whip and approximately the same.

 

Against TD's, the DPS rank is also more or less the same, but marginally, Rapier > Long > Maul. Rapier is best in this situation because the TD's defense is so low (assumed 70% accuracy of Rapier - 85% accuracy of maul). However, your weapon of choice should depend on play style. The main concern against TD's is the lag time between switching attacks. This lag time slows down faster weapons more than slower weapons, since switching with a slow weapon doesn't require as quick reaction times and thus involves less lag. Because of this lag, Thus, if you want to take your time and not have to switch as often and as quickly, but sacrifice some DPS, I'd go with the Maul. For balance, go with Long. For maximum DPS (but only marginally), go with Rapier.[/hide]

 

CONCLUSIONS

• The best weapon is SITUATIONAL. No weapon is the best in all contexts. You must decide which context fits best for you. This was our original intuition, and the calculations support this.
  
• For Slayer/Training: Rapier is ~15% better than Whip, CLS, or Maul. Whip is marginally better than CLS is marginally better than maul.
  
• For PKing(Med-Def): Maul is the best, by about 5%. Rapier and CLS are about the same. Whip is worst.
  
• For Safe PvP(High-Def): Maul is the best, by about 5%, at the cost of losing shield slot. Rapier and CLS are about the same. Whip is worst.
  
• For PvM (GWD): CLS, Maul, and CR are roughly the same. They are all better than the whip.
  
• For PvM (TD's): Depends on playstyle and willingness to switch weapons quickly. Rapier is the best for raw DPS (marginally), but may be impractical due to switches. Longsword is the best balance.
  
• For PvM (WF's): No clear winner, among ZS, SS, and CMaul.
   
  
• General Rank Order (for PvPers): Maul > Rapier >= CLS. DEPENDS ON WHAT PVP YOU DO.
  
• General Rank Order (for MHers): No clear winner.
  
• General Rank Order (for Training): Rapier is clearly the best.
  
• Suggestion for General Use: First, Rapier. Second, Maul. Third (if at all) CLS.
  
• These calculations are not 100% correct. These conclusions may be invalid should my DPS calculator (which is explained in another post) be highly inaccurate.
  

[AnneFrank]

Nice read.

I got myself a rapier .

Lovin' it so far

[Dragonlordjl]

Your numbers seem arbitrary to me, but I understand your line of thinking.

 

I got the maul first, and the rapier second. I use the maul at GWD and TDs, and the rapier for slayer. I don't really PK.

 

Speaking of maul PKing, you also have to factor in how badly you will destroy yourself with the maul if you fight an opponent that uses vengeance. You basically have to use the MSB/switch combo to survive against one of those players if you use the maul, otherwise it's inevitable that they'll hit a 400+ at around the same time you hit a 500+ and therefore you will receive about 800-900 damage in one turn because of Vengeance. With the MSB + Maul combo, you can also get off one maul attack at the same speed as a MSB attack, if done correctly. The other strategy to win with a chaotic maul involves using the granite maul for specs, which while it does own (as Tehuberelite can attest to), a g maul is worth about the same as a full set of rune, so...

[Squisher_33]

i hve rapier, i love it

 

i was plannin on getting maul next anyways for waterfiends

 

also even before reading this here was my logic: theres no use for the middle, on low def rapier has better dps, in a ko situation maul is clear winner, in accuracy maul is winner

 

this makes cls the best all-around weapons but it does also mean its entirely useless because it comes in 2nd in every situation, taking 3-4 situations into account and having cls get 2nd for every single one means its well rounded but if you already have maul and rapier its entrely useless

 

hard to explain but im getting rapier + maul combo so that im always fitted with the best rather than having only 1 weapons thats average in everything

[anonymouse_]

Is maul significantly better then ss/zs at wf?

[Obtaurian]

Is maul significantly better then ss/zs at wf?

 

I'm also interested. Has anyone tried CT fiends with a maul using an iron/steel titan and extremes?

[Smapla]

Is maul significantly better then ss/zs at wf?

 

I'm also interested. Has anyone tried CT fiends with a maul using an iron/steel titan and extremes?

 

doesn't the issue of them degrading based on the number of things attacking you make them unappealing for the chaos tunnels? it might still be worth it on triple charms though

[xpx]

Interesting read and i think it's a much better approach than all of the others i have seen to this problem. I myself have a rapier and will be working on a maul soon enough, and to be honest, because most of what i do is slayer(for melee atleast) the rapier was the right choice for me.

 

Also, if you could be bothered(and i know it's very experimental) would you be able to do similar calculations to proposed chaotic weapons to be released with dungB2? I know the stats would be hard to estimate but with knowledge of 3 chaotic weapons, 3 pvp weapons(which have similar stats to chaotic ones) and the primal/promethium counterparts it should be possible. The ones i'm most interested are 2h, warhammer, spear and battleaxe. thanks.

 

Is maul significantly better then ss/zs at wf?

 

I'm also interested. Has anyone tried CT fiends with a maul using an iron/steel titan and extremes?

 

doesn't the issue of them degrading based on the number of things attacking you make them unappealing for the chaos tunnels? it might still be worth it on triple charms though

Wait, what? where would you have hear that? I have used more than 300% rapier charge for slayer so far and never seen any differance in the degrading between using it in kurdal dungeon/chaos tunnels. Also, the 10 hours is completly bogus with 16-20 hours of pure combat being more accurate.

[Smapla]

Interesting read and i think it's a much better approach than all of the others i have seen to this problem. I myself have a rapier and will be working on a maul soon enough, and to be honest, because most of what i do is slayer(for melee atleast) the rapier was the right choice for me.

 

Also, if you could be bothered(and i know it's very experimental) would you be able to do similar calculations to proposed chaotic weapons to be released with dungB2? I know the stats would be hard to estimate but with knowledge of 3 chaotic weapons, 3 pvp weapons(which have similar stats to chaotic ones) and the primal/promethium counterparts it should be possible. The ones i'm most interested are 2h, warhammer, spear and battleaxe. thanks.

 

Is maul significantly better then ss/zs at wf?

 

I'm also interested. Has anyone tried CT fiends with a maul using an iron/steel titan and extremes?

 

doesn't the issue of them degrading based on the number of things attacking you make them unappealing for the chaos tunnels? it might still be worth it on triple charms though

Wait, what? where would you have hear that? I have used more than 300% rapier charge for slayer so far and never seen any differance in the degrading between using it in kurdal dungeon/chaos tunnels. Also, the 10 hours is completly bogus with 16-20 hours of pure combat being more accurate.

 

 

i'll try to find the thread, but someone went into i believe the chaos tunnel dags room with a rapier equipped and didn't attack anything, and it lost charge. it's several weeks old if i remember so i'll have to dig

 

 

edit:

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/267217-rumour-about-chaotic-weapons/page__st__20

 

i left the country within a few days after i first read this so i'm not sure how it panned out, was this confirmed true or false?

 

i read in a help and advice thread asking for slayer weapon help, that rapier would be best followed by whip when in multi combat, so i assumed it had turned out true

[xpx]

Well it is correct that it loses charge while being in combat, but monsters in ct will only autoattack you for ~12 minutes, which isn't much. Having multiple monsters attacking you at a time doesn't make the charge go down much slower since you are supposed to be in combat 100% of the time while training melee.

 

Edit: As i have used more than 300% charge on my rapier already i can confirm it to be false, my rapier has never degraded more than 6% within a single slayer task(249 dark beasts being 6% degrade). I have used it at CT and lighhouse multiple times.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Interesting read and i think it's a much better approach than all of the others i have seen to this problem. I myself have a rapier and will be working on a maul soon enough, and to be honest, because most of what i do is slayer(for melee atleast) the rapier was the right choice for me.

 

Also, if you could be bothered(and i know it's very experimental) would you be able to do similar calculations to proposed chaotic weapons to be released with dungB2? I know the stats would be hard to estimate but with knowledge of 3 chaotic weapons, 3 pvp weapons(which have similar stats to chaotic ones) and the primal/promethium counterparts it should be possible. The ones i'm most interested are 2h, warhammer, spear and battleaxe. thanks.

 

Is maul significantly better then ss/zs at wf?

 

I'm also interested. Has anyone tried CT fiends with a maul using an iron/steel titan and extremes?

 

doesn't the issue of them degrading based on the number of things attacking you make them unappealing for the chaos tunnels? it might still be worth it on triple charms though

Wait, what? where would you have hear that? I have used more than 300% rapier charge for slayer so far and never seen any differance in the degrading between using it in kurdal dungeon/chaos tunnels. Also, the 10 hours is completly bogus with 16-20 hours of pure combat being more accurate.

 

 

i'll try to find the thread, but someone went into i believe the chaos tunnel dags room with a rapier equipped and didn't attack anything, and it lost charge. it's several weeks old if i remember so i'll have to dig

 

 

edit:

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/267217-rumour-about-chaotic-weapons/page__st__20

 

i left the country within a few days after i first read this so i'm not sure how it panned out, was this confirmed true or false?

 

i read in a help and advice thread asking for slayer weapon help, that rapier would be best followed by whip when in multi combat, so i assumed it had turned out true

So I was the one who posted that rumour

My friend confirms it, but i haven't bothered to test the rate of degradation myself. I'll go do that in a few minutes hold on :)

 

 

location: Lighthouse Dagannoths

16 monsters attacking me at the same time

initial charge: 47%

time elapsed: 4 minutes 43 seconds

final charge: 44%

 

at this rate, my chaotic rapier would have lasted for a grand total of ~3 hours

so yes, confirmed.

[Toad]

I have the rapier & longsword I don't plan on getting the maul

[xpx]

location: Lighthouse Dagannoths

16 monsters attacking me at the same time

initial charge: 47%

time elapsed: 4 minutes 43 seconds

final charge: 44%

 

at this rate, my chaotic rapier would have lasted for a grand total of ~3 hours

so yes, confirmed.

Nothing more to say than that you should propably report it as a bug. At least for slayer, it doesn't make a big differance because the 10 hours isn't true anyway.

[Obtaurian]

Perhaps the weapons are like the shields in that they degrade faster under certain conditions (soaking damage for the shields, being attacked by multiple monsters for the weapons).

[TheAncient]

location: Lighthouse Dagannoths

16 monsters attacking me at the same time

initial charge: 47%

time elapsed: 4 minutes 43 seconds

final charge: 44%

 

at this rate, my chaotic rapier would have lasted for a grand total of ~3 hours

so yes, confirmed.

Nothing more to say than that you should propably report it as a bug. At least for slayer, it doesn't make a big differance because the 10 hours isn't true anyway.

 

I also think that it's a bug. I've never heard of this before, and I'm sure people would have whined about it... but then again I don't have any experience with chaotics yet.

 

Your numbers seem arbitrary to me, but I understand your line of thinking.

 

Speaking of maul PKing, you also have to factor in how badly you will destroy yourself with the maul if you fight an opponent that uses vengeance. You basically have to use the MSB/switch combo to survive against one of those players if you use the maul, otherwise it's inevitable that they'll hit a 400+ at around the same time you hit a 500+ and therefore you will receive about 800-900 damage in one turn because of Vengeance. With the MSB + Maul combo, you can also get off one maul attack at the same speed as a MSB attack, if done correctly. The other strategy to win with a chaotic maul involves using the granite maul for specs, which while it does own (as Tehuberelite can attest to), a g maul is worth about the same as a full set of rune, so...

 

The numbers are to an extent arbitrary, but if you assume that the DPS calculator works then it's a fairly good approximation.

 

Yes, veng is a large downside to the maul that I didn't account for. Still, there are workarounds for that such as the ones you mentioned, and using it as a pseudo-spec weapon only after your opponent's veng has been taken down.

 

Is maul significantly better then ss/zs at wf?

 

This is really hard to say because we don't know WF defense. But if we assume WF has 0 defense against crush (which isn't entirely true):

 

Assumptions: Turmoil(@23%+ Str boost) + OL + standard WF gear

SS DPS: 91.25

ZS DPS: 87.29

CMaul DPS: 87.5

 

Now, let's assume WF's have about 100 defense (which is true because we know WF's boost turmoil to 29%. 14% of 100 is about 29% - 15%.). Let's also assume They have about 50 crush defense. I picked 50 because it calibrated the ZS accuracy to be about 95% which is roughly true with experience.

 

Assumptions: Turmoil(@23%+ Str boost) + OL + standard WF gear; WF has 100 defense level and 50 crush defense bonus

SS DPS: 84.5

ZS DPS: 83.6

CMaul DPS: 87.5 (~100% accuracy!)

 

If these assumptions are accurate, then CMaul's DPS is about 5% higher than ZS/SS, which are about the same.

It's really arguable whether or not CMaul's DPS is really higher for WF. I can't say for sure, but it definitely isn't an obvious improvement. In reality, since WF doesn't have 0 defense, CMaul's DPS is slightly higher. However, you also have to take into account the death-loss effect (you often don't hit your max hit as a killing blow, wasting time and DPS. this affects slow weapons more than fast weapons).

 

Also, if you could be bothered(and i know it's very experimental) would you be able to do similar calculations to proposed chaotic weapons to be released with dungB2? I know the stats would be hard to estimate but with knowledge of 3 chaotic weapons, 3 pvp weapons(which have similar stats to chaotic ones) and the primal/promethium counterparts it should be possible. The ones i'm most interested are 2h, warhammer, spear and battleaxe. thanks.

Where can I get the stats for the proposed chaotic weapons :blink: Are you talking about the Dg-specific Prom and Primal gear? Cause those weapons will only be available in Daemonheim and we have no idea of the stats of any Daemonheim foes.

[xSxqPowerx]

Cool, I just don't see how much it can conclude based on a calculator that isn't necessarily anywhere close to accurate.

 

I have the long, but want the rapier too. Maul was never a choice for me - even if it is slightly more DPS against bosses, the loss of a shield is simply not worth it to me.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Cool, I just don't see how much it can conclude based on a calculator that isn't necessarily anywhere close to accurate.

 

I have the long, but want the rapier too. Maul was never a choice for me - even if it is slightly more DPS against bosses, the loss of a shield is simply not worth it to me.

you really shouldn't jump to conclusions like that unless you make the calculator yourself.

this sort of calculation shouldn't be much less accurate than existing max hit calculators.

people who write these calculators are just obligated to say that it's not 100% accurate, because there's noway to know for sure without seeing the jagex code.

 

Either way if you don't feel like using it, it's just your loss.

[xpx]

No, i'm talking about estimating what a weapons stats would be looking at the trends from the stats of existing chaotic, existing pvp and existing dungeoneering weapons. The estimations might not turn out to be correct but atleast you can get into the right ballpark.

 

for example:

 

Chaotic spear would be around: +137 stab, +130 str

Chaotic warhammer would be around: +130 crush, +118 str

 

2h and battleaxe stats are a bit harder to propose because there are no pvp counterparts but...

 

Chaotic 2h: +160 slash, +150 strength.

Chaotic battleaxe: +120 slash,+128 strength

 

and moreover, dragon defender(do remember that these are also proposed stats and have nothing to do with what the real stats will actually be)

 

dragon defender: +30 stab, +29 slash, + 28 crush, +7 stregth.

[TheAncient]

No, i'm talking about estimating what a weapons stats would be looking at the trends from the stats of existing chaotic, existing pvp and existing dungeoneering weapons. The estimations might not turn out to be correct but atleast you can get into the right ballpark.

 

for example:

 

Chaotic spear would be around: +137 stab, +130 str

Chaotic warhammer would be around: +130 crush, +118 str

 

2h and battleaxe stats are a bit harder to propose because there are no pvp counterparts but...

 

Chaotic 2h: +160 slash, +150 strength.

Chaotic battleaxe: +120 slash,+128 strength

 

and moreover, dragon defender(do remember that these are also proposed stats and have nothing to do with what the real stats will actually be)

 

dragon defender: +30 stab, +29 slash, + 28 crush, +7 stregth.

 

Those are a bunch more calculations. I'm too lazy to do those :grin:

 

But, if you're curious, here is the file I've been using to calculate everything. You can input values for those setups if you'd like.

As far as I know, my computer doesn't have any viruses, and I hope you'd be able to trust me :P

DPS Calculator on Mediafire

[ghjkl]

As I stated before, cls is always in the middle, never being better than both the maul and rapier

[Squisher_33]

i dont see the issue here, rapier is a total waste at dags and anyone who uses it thre must realy realy realy value speedng up slayer by 1%

 

cannon does all the work on dags, it oudamages me by like 6x anyways, so then throw in titan and iusualy dong eve bother attacking, i just run around reloading and looting and the task still takes 10 mins

 

heres my 2 cents to the argument, slayer helm uses scrolls based on time in combat, in 1v1 ill see a scroll release every 15-20 second, on abberant spectres or dags or wfs or vleds, theres a scroll usd almost every attack

 

anyways rapier should realy only be used in 1v1 anyways, since rapier is about 10% faster than whip, but only like 1-2% faster than whip + cannon + titan in multi

[TheAncient]

i dont see the issue here, rapier is a total waste at dags and anyone who uses it thre must realy realy realy value speedng up slayer by 1%

 

What.

[xpx]

Well for a task of 219 daggonoths that i just did my rapier it degraded 3%, which isn't much at all. All in all 239 fire giants, 195 black demons and 219 daggonoths took 7% charge, all done in wither CT or lighthouse. Also, since the cost for these weapons is actually so low(100k an hour compared to 320k an hour for overloads) i'd rather still use one, even if it's just for 1%.

 

Squisher, do tell me all the tasks you use steel titan and cannon for, because as far as i can tell, there ae two(tortoises don't cound because of 2 spawns). For CT tasks it's well worth using because you can't get crashed then.