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The Case for Dungeoneering


LTH_Dev_Ranges

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Please don't post here if you don't read it all. This is something that I wrote along with the leader of Lethality, Jifaru. This is mainly for Warlords/Leaders/whoever else your clan allows to get wars. Please don't flame for an opinion, and if your opinion is the opposite, feel free to share it in a RESPECTFUL manner.

 

Also, I know this is my first post. I had an old account and something go messed up and I can't access the email it was connected to so don't let my 1 post count confuse you :P

 

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The Case for Dungeoneering in F2P Wars

 

Written by Dev Ranges and Jifaru

 

I. Introduction

 

If I could say, with a straight face, that the release of Dungeoneering has been one of the most divisive but crucial events for organized Free-to-Play warring, I would actually be quite proud of that. But for many clans, Dungeoneering has regrettably been neither divisive, nor crucial - it has simply been brushed aside by countless clans as something "boring," "expensive," "not worthwhile," or "unfair." While most major transitions do take some time to become mainstream, the resistance against Dungeoneering has been particularly staggering. In many weeks of seeking an audience with the warring community to bring a serious discussion about Dungeoneering to the table, I have found little in the way of solid argumentation. Instead, there seems to be a general trend to just sweep the issue under the table, or bring up some feeble excuse.

 

So while we ask the rhetorical question, "Why not," we hope that you all take the time to read through this argument. By the end, the choice should be clear.

 

 

II. A Case for Progress

 

"Dungeoneering weapons hold warring back because there's so many more k0s." I've heard this pathetic statement multiple times. Dungeoneering doesn't hold warring back, it forces it to progress. You may have been an epic tank against a group of Rune Scimitars, but lets throw a few Gravite Longswords and 2h Swords into the mix. It forces you to think faster, react quicker, drag better, and tank harder. Gravite does nothing more than this - it does not break the game, it does not make tanking impossible. If you take the time to do a simple stat analysis, you will invariably find that Gravite is a small upgrade - big enough to take competitive warring to the next level, but not big enough to overwhelm warring with RNG.

 

Dungeoneering weapons can be used in a large variety of circumstances. The Gravite Longsword and Rapier are ideal for hybrids, as they simply replace the Rune Scimitar/Longsword/Battleaxe that hybrids are already using. The stat differentials between Gravite and Rune are noticeable, but not overwhelmingly so. Take, for example, the gravite rapier, which boasts a +50 stab attack (versus the +45 slash attack of the rune scimitar), and a +48 strength bonus, which is four higher than that of the rune scimitar.

 

A four-strength difference roughly translates to a 10 life point difference in max hit, whereas the stab attack used exclusively by the rapier gives a slight edge over full rune, but falters when used against even measly dragonhide armor. The gravite longsword, on the other hand, is an even smaller upgrade from the rune longsword. While it is capable of hitting for about 14 life points more, whether or not to use a longsword will STILL remain a matter of personal preference, and will only situationally influence a war. The advantages are great enough to punish those who are not ready to tank, for those who cannot respond to the situations around them. But in the grand scheme of an entire war, a switch to gravite weapons poses mostly situational benefits.

 

The Gravite 2h Sword is great for sniping, as snipers (most of whom are 99 strength and pot/pray for a lot of their time in the arena) can hit up to 370. I have personally two snipers with Gravite 2h's hit a 350 each on a binder, and their fall in leader quickly switched piles and got an easy k0. However, the fact that the Gravite 2h sword only works effectively on crush makes it that much harder to snipe a ranger, or deal with someone wearing a rune chain. Furthermore, two-hand sniping leaves the sniper much more vulnerable to anti'ing. So in the end, what comes out ahead? The individual sniper, who has a shiny new weapon, or the ability of each clan to allocate their snipers and anti-snipers to their maximum effectiveness?

 

I don't see a need to explicitly answer that question.

 

The Longbow Sight is great for any war (with ranged on, obviously) because it is so easy to get rid of snipers when you have one. For those of you who don't know, wearing full rune (with gauntlets) with a Maple Longbow (Sighted) gives you a higher ranged bonus than full Green D'hide armour with a Maple Shortbow. What does this mean for rangers? That's for you to figure out. The accuracy of the sighted longbow makes it a powerful weapon, but you are sacrificing a little bit of speed.

 

Once again, is this enough to break the game? Hardly. But is it enough to change the way we war, to critically analyze the situations around us, and think our feet? Definitely.

 

III. The Fallacy of Disadvantage

 

A lot of times I've asked for wars with Dungeoneering on, I get the reply "well it isn't fair, you guys probably have more Dung weapoins than we do." That's complete crap. In that case, we should be turining off individual stats that give teams advantages. How about we send on person to the other side at the beginning of a war to drop 3 people with 99 hp down to 800 LP's, because their high HP gives them an advantage over lower levels? And how about clans with a higher combat average? Should we make them drop their higher levels so that the combat averages are more equal between the clans?

 

If you're looking for a completely "fair," [bleep]-for-tat war, I guarantee that even in a simple melee/binds war in Classic arena, you won't find it. There will always be one clan that has a better sniper, or a better tank, and I guarantee one will have a higher Magic average than the other.

 

A big part of clan wars is accepting that there are stat differences between you and your opponent, and there also are skill differences. A clan that never wants to face another clan with higher levels will never improve.

 

IV. The Money Factor (Degrading Weapons)

 

A lot of concern over Dungeoneering weapons is that they will give a significant advantage to the rich, as they can easily recharge the weapons without putting a large dent in their GPs. This is true in some senses, but how long will it take until you actually have to recharge? Well, most clans I have been in have 2-4 wars per weekend, and have them here and there on weekdays. Let's just say for argument's sake that you manage to attend 2 of those wars. Now, your weapon only degrades while you are IN COMBAT. That means that all of the time you spend binding, running after opponents that get good drags, and tanking take away from the time you would be using your weapon. Once again for arguments sake, let's say you spend 20 minutes (and that's generous, since usually you will tank in at least 50% of wars) in combat every war you attend. A Dungeoneering weapon lasts for 600 minutes (10 hours) of combat time. That means that it will take you 30 wars until you have to recharge. In a broader term, thats 3.00-3.75 months until you are recharging your weapon. And let's not forget that you have options of recharging. For the richer players, the option of dropping 1M GP is more appealing, so you can save up those tokens for the Chaotic Longsword (so epic). For poorer players, you need 100K GP and 10k Dungeoneering Tokens, which translates to about three 5:5s at level 60+ Dungeoneering.

 

Gravite is not anything like Corrupt, an analysis that many people have been drawn to like a fat kid to cake. The fact that corrupt is exorbitantly expensive, for only an hour of usage, makes it so that a clan with wealthy players who can consistently bring top-tier weapons AND armor to a war, will repeatedly stomp a clan that cannot field such equipment.

 

In the stat analysis done above, we have conclusively shown that Gravite is not enough to break the game or prevent tanking. Nor are its fees so exorbitant that the average player cannot afford them. Every player has the option of training up to 50 DG for a longbow sight (which is free to use and maintain), or 64 DG for a FREE gravite weapon that starts at 20% charge. Even on that 20%, you can use that weapon for many wars before having to recharge.

 

If situational costs are such a big deal to everyone, why don't we ban ranging, because Adamant Arrows can run up to the millions depending on how many are shot. Why don't we ban Binds, because 2 nature runes are damn expensive, and many proficient binders often spend hundreds of nature runes in a given war. How about all those clans who say that DG is too expensive, but regularly have PKRI's in which millions and millions of coins' worth of Rune equipment is lost every time?

 

How about the Runecrafting Staff, which at a hefty sum of 10,000 tokens, can be cashed in for Pure Essence or Water Talismans for a huge sum of cash? Anyway, this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten... but leads to the next point:

 

V. These are "Minigame" Weapons

 

To these naysayers, I have 2 simple minigames to throw at you: Great Orb Project and Fist of Guthix. First off, Dungeoneering is a SKILL, not a minigame. You're welcome to argue otherwise, but then again all you have to do is open your skills tab to see my point. But going along with this minigame fallacy, let's not forget that there isn't a war that we fight today (outside of PvP of course) that doesn't have something from a minigame in it. We all use Rune Gauntlets, Berserker Shields, Druidic Robes, Runecrafter's Staff, and Runecrafter's Robes. If I were to approach any warlord and ask for no GOP or FOG items, I would be laughed at until I was kicked from their channel. Whats the difference between those items and Dungeoneering items, since they are both things you have to earn (whether you earned your FOG items or bought them)?

 

The difference is, Dungeoneering is a skill. A skill which, after a long period of training, yields a small but tangible benefit to the individual. Much like the difference between 97 or 99 magic, between 98 and 99 HP. But instead, we're looking at approximately 100k experience for a sighted longbow, and 400k for a gravite weapon. Dungeoneering is not a minigame, but even if it was, may I remind everyone that between the rune berserker shield and rune gauntlets, a total of +6 strength is added. This boost is more than either the upgrade from rune scimitar to gravite rapier, or the upgrade from rune longsword to gravite longsword. Why don't we ban FoG equipment too?

 

VI. Dungeoneering is so Boring to Train

 

Don't lie to me and act like you thoroughly enjoyed getting max melee while mindlessly doing Slayer tasks. And if you were F2P and AFKed spiders that entire time, I hope you've smelled fresh air sometime in the past few years. And lets not forget about the 126s who all have at one point felt hopeless while getting 99 prayer, whether in F2P or P2P. And how about those with 99 Magic (assuming they didn't bot) who spent hours and hours alching, barraging, enchanting, and other mind numbing activities. My point is that the road to your prize isn't always fun, but the prize itself is what you aim for.

 

A quick tip to help you with training though, is to get your clan involved. I often have to go solo because I can't find other people, and I'm sick of dealing with ditchers in World 117. If you get a few of your clanmates interested in Dungeoneering, you've just gotten yourself much faster xp and some friends to go through the "pain" with you. And for those of you who have done Dungeoneering yourselves, you all know it's far more fun with others than flying solo.

 

If the argument here is that we should not train our skills because they are "too boring," well, actually, I have nothing to say to that. It's far too ridiculous.

 

VII. Conclusion

 

Dungeoneering isn't just another skill, it is an entire experience. It is easy for those who have never participated to just cast it aside, but there is so much potential, not only for warring, but for the clan community as well.

 

What is the hubbub that Dungeoneering has raised among all the naysayers?

 

Is it the time commitment? The marginal cost of a 100k-1m recharge fee? A +4 strength upgrade to the gravite rapier? A +5.5 strength upgrade to the gravite longsword? The ability to get anti'd out the ass when using a gravite longsword? It's hard to say, but none of these things are even remotely feasible.

 

So what did many of us have to suffer through when trying to get that coveted longbow sight or gravite weapon?

 

We had to suffer through long hours with our fellow clanmates, developing closer ties than ever before both on and off the battlefield. We had to suffer through community-building events, and hilarious incidents when one of our friends would randomly get killed by a fishing accident, a mining mishap, or a rogue ferret. And we had to suffer through the glory of defeating a clan that had far more dungeoneering weapons fielded than we did, solely because of our organization and warring abilities.

 

I don't know about you, but I'd suffer through that any day.

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Warlord of Lethality, Member of Silent Ember

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I hope we can start a good discussion here so that all the sides can fully bring out their opinions.

 

Jagex has given us an opportunity to expand the scope of f2p warring. In short, it would be foolish to turn it down for the wrong reasons.

Proud Silent Ember Advisor

UBH Member | Lethality Leader

 

Pursuant to requirements related to practice before the Internal Revenue Service, any tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for purposes of (i) avoiding penalties imposed under the United States Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another person any transaction or matter addressed herein.

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agreed 100%. I believe this past week, us in Lth had a war with dung on and the other clan kinda protested cause they claimed we just wanted dung on because we had more players with dung weapons. Turns out they had more people than us, we only had like 3 and they had like 5 or 6. We still managed to beat them which further proves the point that just because you have more dungeoneering weapons doensn't mean its a sure win.

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After my initial anger at dungeneering and all the stuff that comes with it, I found I agree with you. Like almost everything else (excluding corrupt) DG items require time and effort that merely reflect a clan and the individual's dedication or lack there of to warring. While not all clan's have this dedication (as they focus on other areas) a clan and its members should not be penalized because of this.

 

P.S. You probably can PM an Administrator or try this Link. :P

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Dg sucks, and I didnt max melee out with slayer. Bandits did it man!

 

And thats the kind of statements I was talking about that only address the "problem" but give no reasons why.

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Warlord of Lethality, Member of Silent Ember

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Well the problem, atleast from my vision is; It takes way too long to get a decent level/amount of tokens or whatever to get the better weps.

And things get too boring when it takes a while <_<

M on my Chest.

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The only thing you're wrong about is whether or not Dungeoneering is a skill or a minigame. It's a minigame with an XP value tacked on to the token rewards. Other than that sidepoint, you're right on the money.

Proud Gladiator

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You can consider it a minigame if you'd like, but it is regarded as a skill by its creator. And Runescape even changed its name to Runescape: Dungeons of Daemonheim because this skill encompasses almost every skill you use into one "super" skill.

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Warlord of Lethality, Member of Silent Ember

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I've never been involved in a F2P clan war (though it seems like a lot of fun after reading this thread), but I very much enjoyed reading your arguments for the inclusion of dungeoneering in warring. It seems like such a waste of potential fun and planning to not allow dungeoneering weapons and items in wars.

 

Though my opinion is somewhat invalid, I fully support.

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To put it bluntly, [bleep] off.

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I too agree that dungeoneering is more of a minigame than a skill (even though i still <3: it), but that is not the argument here, please take that to another thread

 

I fully support the use of dungeoneering weapons in wars, I just wish people would accept more wars with dg weapons allowed. Hopefully in the near future they will become as common as FoG robes and such

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Ya buzz thats what I'm going for here. I at the very least ask for Dung to be on every war. If they say no I try to give them a little somethin (like if they want ranged off and I want it on) their way in exchange for Dung weapons on.

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Warlord of Lethality, Member of Silent Ember

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From what Dazuz has posted on Clan Europe's and T0's forums. He says all the items that you listed as great are really junk. Usually Daz knows what he's talking about aswell.

 

Longbowsight vs Gravite shortbow. This one was hard for me to understand but the combined speed of the gravite shortbow and the accouracy of it make it more powerful then the longbows sight pure accouracy.

 

Rapier vs 2h vs longsword - As above the rapier is best as in for its overall stats. The 2h you have less defence with and has -5 attack bonus in all other attack styles from what i heard. You also have to change its style everytime you switch into it which can be annoying. The speed and strength overpower the longswords decent speed and minorly better strength.

 

P.S. Yell at Dazuz if you disagree :rolleyes:

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From what Dazuz has posted on Clan Europe's and T0's forums. He says all the items that you listed as great are really junk. Usually Daz knows what he's talking about aswell.

 

Longbowsight vs Gravite shortbow. This one was hard for me to understand but the combined speed of the gravite shortbow and the accouracy of it make it more powerful then the longbows sight pure accouracy.

 

Rapier vs 2h vs longsword - As above the rapier is best as in for its overall stats. The 2h you have less defence with and has -5 attack bonus in all other attack styles from what i heard. You also have to change its style everytime you switch into it which can be annoying. The speed and strength overpower the longswords decent speed and minorly better strength.

 

P.S. Yell at Dazuz if you disagree :rolleyes:

 

There's not much point trying to bring ethos into the picture here. I may not be established in the community, but it doesn't mean that I don't do my fair share of spading. The point I'm trying to drive home is, while DG weapons are better than rune, each DG weapon has situational advantages and disadvantages that ultimately rely more on the skill of the user rather than sheer power of the item. I will reiterate, once again, that the rapier has a disadvantage against rangers (compared with the rune scim), and that it only confers approximately 10 life points to max hit. This isn't just theorycrafting, this is a simple understanding of the fact that the gravite 2h has stats that draw near to that of the whip, except with a much slower attack speed.

 

And the fact that it is unable to be used effectively in Slash only bolsters the point we are making further. It is not overpowered, because it is often unwieldy to use. This means that people who cannot use the g2h properly will be antisniped heavily, sniped heavily, or just otherwise punished for it.

Proud Silent Ember Advisor

UBH Member | Lethality Leader

 

Pursuant to requirements related to practice before the Internal Revenue Service, any tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for purposes of (i) avoiding penalties imposed under the United States Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another person any transaction or matter addressed herein.

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Okay, you should probably start arguing why blasts aren't allowed in every fight because blasts has been around longer yet you still see melee binds only type of fights.

 

It's personal preference and if a clan doesn't feel comfortable in taking risks that's their own choice. Some clans are here to win, others are here to compete and challenge themselves. Find clans that want to challenge themselves or like DG and war them, hopefully other clans will give into warring you with dg on. Or work out a deal say hey r1 your rules whatever you want. r2 dg on.

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Okay, you should probably start arguing why blasts aren't allowed in every fight because blasts has been around longer yet you still see melee binds only type of fights.

 

It's personal preference and if a clan doesn't feel comfortable in taking risks that's their own choice. Some clans are here to win, others are here to compete and challenge themselves. Find clans that want to challenge themselves or like DG and war them, hopefully other clans will give into warring you with dg on. Or work out a deal say hey r1 your rules whatever you want. r2 dg on.

this pretty much =/

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In Silent Ember our dungeoneering god Romdath has lead basically all of the ranks to a Gravite Longsword, excluding Thealth who plays 'scape for a living. We always try for DG on, but sometimes clans find that the 12 or so people with Grav longs and 15 with LB sights is too much to handle, and I bring out the Roon Shortsword of Ownage. <3:

 

tl;dr DG good.

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Okay, you should probably start arguing why blasts aren't allowed in every fight because blasts has been around longer yet you still see melee binds only type of fights.

 

It's personal preference and if a clan doesn't feel comfortable in taking risks that's their own choice. Some clans are here to win, others are here to compete and challenge themselves. Find clans that want to challenge themselves or like DG and war them, hopefully other clans will give into warring you with dg on. Or work out a deal say hey r1 your rules whatever you want. r2 dg on.

 

I never argued that they shouldn't be on for all fights. I love wars that are all styles with Dungeoneering on. Today we (Silent Ember) fought BK with those rules and it was a lot of fun. And you're trying to get away from the topic of Dungeoneering by trying to criticize another aspect of warring rules. I can't fight all the battles at once.

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Warlord of Lethality, Member of Silent Ember

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Okay, you should probably start arguing why blasts aren't allowed in every fight because blasts has been around longer yet you still see melee binds only type of fights.

 

It's personal preference and if a clan doesn't feel comfortable in taking risks that's their own choice. Some clans are here to win, others are here to compete and challenge themselves. Find clans that want to challenge themselves or like DG and war them, hopefully other clans will give into warring you with dg on. Or work out a deal say hey r1 your rules whatever you want. r2 dg on.

 

Gravite is not cost-prohibitive though. The issue isn't one of adding new styles, as that changes the interface of the war. As part of a simple melee regimen, there should be as much discussion regarding whether Dungeoneering should be allowed, as there is to whether Rune should be allowed when people can wear Adamant. Short of none. Our hope here is that people who are unwilling to urge their clan to train DG, or unwilling to help the clan by acquiring DG weapons, understands exactly why they are doing so; or even better, we can convince them to start raising the bar.

 

There is no limit to how low we can set the standards, using your argument. But I'm sure you don't feel that way. While we do try to respect the preferences of each individual clan, there should in fact be a higher base line. If we don't feel comfortable doing anything but Iron Wars, I do not feel that we are entitled to participate in TWR, let alone competitive in competitive F2P warring. DG should be a default. If we're going to punish dedicated warrers for having 64+ dungeoneering, we might as well punish everyone for having the guts to hit max melee, or something close to it.

 

One final note... prayer. For those pure F2P players without access to G Altar...

we have to recognize that there are some limitations to certain groups of players, and there will be some disadvantages. But as a community, are we striving to raise the level of competitive warring, or do we seek to adopt a "no warrer left behind" policy? I leave this rhetorical question here for everyone to consider.

Proud Silent Ember Advisor

UBH Member | Lethality Leader

 

Pursuant to requirements related to practice before the Internal Revenue Service, any tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for purposes of (i) avoiding penalties imposed under the United States Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another person any transaction or matter addressed herein.

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