Abortion

[Giordano]

I want SniperSAS to post, his sig explains this protesting dilema perfectly.

[sees_all1]

Can't watch vid(at work), I will when I get home.

 

I've never been a fan of the aggressive public protests for any purpose though, I'd prefer to lobby politicians for this sort of thing.

 

There's only one aggressive person in the video, and it isn't the protesters.

[obfuscator]

Can't watch vid(at work), I will when I get home.

 

I've never been a fan of the aggressive public protests for any purpose though, I'd prefer to lobby politicians for this sort of thing.

 

There's only one aggressive person in the video, and it isn't the protesters.

I see.. As I said, I haven't watched it :P

[Dupin]

Can't watch vid(at work), I will when I get home.

 

I've never been a fan of the aggressive public protests for any purpose though, I'd prefer to lobby politicians for this sort of thing.

 

There's only one aggressive person in the video, and it isn't the protesters.

Agreed. I watched the first minute, and turned it off because it annoyed me. I'm pro-choice, not pro-shouting at women on the street in a rude manner. Someone should ask him what he's trying to accomplish, as converting two middle-aged ladies holding posters of Jesus won't do much, and vidding it on a crappy cell-phone just shows the internet how much of a jackass he is.

[Enamoured]

I'm most certainly pro choice. Who are you to tell others what to do with their futures and bodies? :-|

[Assume Nothing]

I'm most certainly pro choice. Who are you to tell others what to do with their futures and bodies? :-|

BUT YOU'RE KILLING BEINGS THAT CAN POTENTIALLY BE SOMETHING THAT CONTRIBUTES ALOT TO SOCIETY! YOU AGE-IST! WOULD YOU KILL A BABY/TODDLER?!

[magekillr]

Can't watch vid(at work), I will when I get home.

 

I've never been a fan of the aggressive public protests for any purpose though, I'd prefer to lobby politicians for this sort of thing.

 

There's only one aggressive person in the video, and it isn't the protesters.

Agreed. I watched the first minute, and turned it off because it annoyed me. I'm pro-choice, not pro-shouting at women on the street in a rude manner. Someone should ask him what he's trying to accomplish, as converting two middle-aged ladies holding posters of Jesus won't do much, and vidding it on a crappy cell-phone just shows the internet how much of a jackass he is.

 

Perhaps you should read the story behind it:

 

http://goodmenproject.com/2010/10/23/confronting-life/

 

You never know the circumstances surrounding this kind of decision. Consider this my plea: stop terrorizing women. Stop adding trauma to their trauma. If youre able, stand up to these bullies in nonviolent ways. Speak out. And if you have a camera, use it.

 

If you read the background, you'd know what it accomplished.

 

I prefer PZ Myers' explanation:

 

Imagine you're pregnant. Imagine that you discover the fetus is doomed by serious birth defects, and is going to be stillborn no matter what. Imagine that you weepily go to the local reproductive services to have the futile pregnancy terminated. Imagine (and this is probably the easiest part) that you get there and discover a fervent group of fanatical, close-minded Christians waving signs with aborted fetuses on them, telling you that you're damned for going into that clinic.

 

What would you do?

 

Well, obviously, you should find common cause with the protestors and tell them that you respect their opinions and really appreciate their input into your personal, and in this case tragically necessary, decisions. Maybe you should go to church with them and discover the richness of their spiritual life, and watch them bloom into awareness of your beliefs and values. Yeah, maybe.

 

Or you could march right up to them and let them know exactly how despicable their behavior is.

 

I don't know. I kind of like the second option. It seems a little more realistic and honest. It also has the bonus of revealing how cowardly your opposition actually is they're not used to people standing up for their rights.

[sees_all1]

Perhaps you should read the story behind it:

 

http://goodmenproject.com/2010/10/23/confronting-life/

 

You never know the circumstances surrounding this kind of decision. Consider this my plea: stop terrorizing women. Stop adding trauma to their trauma. If youre able, stand up to these bullies in nonviolent ways. Speak out. And if you have a camera, use it.

 

Isn't this ironic? Stop terrorizing women?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

[Zierro]

Stop adding trauma to their trauma.

 

I agree with this, but I think Dupin raises a good point. What he was doing isn't an effective means of convincing anyone. It's not like the anti-abortionist protesters are convincing anyone either though.

 

While it might not be the completely moral righteous thing to do, abortion should not be placed on the same level of murder. If anything, it is closest to the "genocide of masturbation".

[Alg]

Isn't this ironic? Stop terrorizing women?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Agreed.

His motives don't justify his behavior. Can we shut that guy up so he doesn't ruin pro-choice for the rest of us?

[sees_all1]

It's not like the anti-abortionist protesters are convincing anyone either though.

 

Lol. It's funny you should say that, especially because its incredibly inaccurate.

 

There is a campaign going on right now called 40 Days for Life. They normally do a campaign once a year during lent, but they felt the need to do another this year.

Anyhow

• More than 350' date='000 have joined together in an historic display of unity to pray and fast for an end to abortion
  [*']More than 11,500 church congregations have participated in the 40 Days for Life campaigns
  
• Reports document 2,811 lives that have been spared from abortion and those are just the ones we know about
  
• 38 abortion workers have quit their jobs and walked away from the abortion industry
  
• Seven abortion facilities completely shut down following local 40 Days for Life campaigns
  
• Hundreds of women and men have been spared from the tragic effects of abortion, including a lifetime of regrets
  
• More than 850 news stories have been featured in newspapers, magazines, radio shows and TV programs from coast to coast ... and overseas
  
• Many people with past abortion experiences have stepped forward to begin post-abortion healing and recovery
  

(emphasis mine)

 

Sidewalk presence near abortion facilities does amazing things.

[Zierro]

Then I guess I stand corrected. But if that protesting really does sway popular opinion so much, then the guy protesting against the protesters probably had some sort of effect on popular opinion as well.

 

I had no idea those people were actually taken seriously. :unsure:

[Skeptical]

Lives saved... yes, I suppose we should all rejoice when someone turns vegetarian, then: after all, a fully grown cow is much more intelligent and "alive" than a bunch of cells a few weeks old.

 

I think if there was mandatory science education in religious schools, we would see far fewer of these issues. Reminds me of this comic:

 

[obfuscator]

When you've got no good answer, bash your opponent.

[sees_all1]

Then I guess I stand corrected. But if that protesting really does sway popular opinion so much, then the guy protesting against the protesters probably had some sort of effect on popular opinion as well.

 

I had no idea those people were actually taken seriously. :unsure:

Other than making himself look like an ass, I doubt it. It takes a very strong conviction to stand in front of an abortion facility and protest it. I believe the only thing the protesters did wrong is they engaged this guy instead of ignoring him.

[Skeptical]

I offered an answer: I've tried repeatedly, not only on this thread and others.

 

A fertilized egg is little more a human being that some sperm cells. I dismiss terms of relative morality, as I believe I explained earlier in this(?) thread. Preventing woman from making choices about their own bodies, and increasing the number of unwanted children does not create a happier, more stable form of humanity. When the problem is considered by gut reaction, we end up with "they're killing babies!"

[obfuscator]

I was under the impression your body parts contained your DNA.

 

A fetus has different DNA - it may be fully dependent on your body but it is not yours in a traditional sense..

 

Do you honestly think that every single pro-life person in history has held their stance for so long simply because of a "gut reaction"? Once again, the intelligence attack.

[Skeptical]

61.9% of conceptuses were lost prior to 12 weeks, and 91.7% of these losses occurred subclinically, without the knowledge of the once pregnant woman

 

That mixed DNA is sounding very important right now, isn't it?

 

And yes, I believe that an anti-abortion stance has a very firm basis in ignorance. I don't have the numbers, but I would say that a vast majority of those that oppose it are doing it due to religious convictions. Hardly very convincing evidence.

[obfuscator]

61.9% of conceptuses were lost prior to 12 weeks, and 91.7% of these losses occurred subclinically, without the knowledge of the once pregnant woman

 

That mixed DNA is sounding very important right now, isn't it?

 

And yes, I believe that an anti-abortion stance has a very firm basis in ignorance. I don't have the numbers, but I would say that a vast majority of those that oppose it are doing it due to religious convictions. Hardly very convincing evidence.

 

That's completely irrelevant. Miscarriages happen, they aren't the result of someone deliberately ending the life.

 

My beliefs about abortion are quite simple.

 

Murder: Intentional, unwarranted murder of a living human being.

 

Abortion:

Intentional - certainly.

Unwarranted - almost always, and in the cases where it is warranted I've no moral objection.

Living - a fetus is biologically alive. This is scientific fact.

Human - this one is a little more up for grabs.

 

Here's why I believe a fetus is human:

 

You really need to look at what defines humanity to cover this fully, but looking at the basic biological standpoint, we see that a fetus has complete human DNA. This obviously means that biologically, a fetus cannot be anything but human.

 

Is it human in a moral sense? This is the hardest question to answer. A baby out of the womb is considered human - why should it not be considered human the minute before it is born? Nothing has really changed. The same goes for development of the heart, brain, limbs, and body parts. The thing is - in order to decide when something "becomes" human we need to look at the change in it's state.

 

These prenatal developements are huge changes, for sure. But once again, biologically, there is no bigger change than conception.

 

If conception is the biggest change in the biological process preceding a human birth, I think that is when the child should be considered human.

 

Therefore, a fetus is human. Therefore, abortion is murder.

 

You said "When the problem is considered by gut reaction, we end up with "they're killing babies!"". I could counter and say that when the pro-choice consider the problem with a gut reaction, they end up with "it doesn't look human, so it's ok!".

 

Note: I'm not expecting anyone to be converted by this process, it's just my train of thought on the issue.

[sees_all1]

61.9% of conceptuses were lost prior to 12 weeks, and 91.7% of these losses occurred subclinically, without the knowledge of the once pregnant woman

 

That mixed DNA is sounding very important right now, isn't it?

 

And yes, I believe that an anti-abortion stance has a very firm basis in ignorance. I don't have the numbers, but I would say that a vast majority of those that oppose it are doing it due to religious convictions. Hardly very convincing evidence.

 

The vast majority of abortion proponents have their basis in deception. In human biological development, there is no such thing as a "fertilized egg". No, immediately after conception the correct scientific term is a Zygote. After it divides once, its considered to be a Blastocyst, after three weeks an Embryo. After the 8th week the person is considered to be a fetus. That entire time period, from fertilization to 8 weeks it can accurately be described as an embryo.

 

"Fertilized egg" connotes images of a chicken egg.

 

Also, in the 1950s, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists changed their definition of pregnancy from the beginning conception (fertilization) to implantation, so they could market "birth control" without having to call it an abortifacient. Further obfuscation is occurring now, where abortion proponents are trying to change the meaning of conception to implantation.

 

If you ever go into Planned Parenthood, they'll incorrectly call a fetus a "ball of cells", or "mass of tissue", sometimes even a "parasite". But, you know, whatever it takes to make people feel better about killing.

[Zierro]

Murder: Intentional, unwarranted murder of a living human being.

 

Abortion:

Intentional - certainly.

Unwarranted - almost always, and in the cases where it is warranted I've no moral objection.

Living - a fetus is biologically alive. This is scientific fact.

Human - this one is a little more up for grabs.

 

Your definition of "murder" has "murder" in it.

 

Abortion is intentional. It can be unwarranted, but there are a handful of good reasons out there in my opinion. Living, absolutely. Human, of course because it doesn't fall into any other specie of animal.

 

I guess my main gripe is that I believe some acts of killing are warranted, and thus are more accurately described as "killing" rather than "murder" because it changes the connotation.

 

Here's a hypothetical example, but please know that I am not equating this to abortion: You are a medic in a war and you just ran completely out of supplies. Then you see one of your own soldiers, pale skinned with several holes in his chest, suffering immensely from great blood loss. You radio for help and discover the nearest medic is not only hours away in distance, but also have enemy forces along the way. Scientifically, it looks like he will last less than an hour unless he gets medical attention. The man asks you to please kill him, so you do. Is it murder or did you simply kill him because the situation warrants it?

[Giordano]

Call it a human being and I won't feel bad about aborting one.

 

I'm glad this is in political disagreement; only means abortions can be done no matter what politicans, debaters, or protesters say.

[Zierro]

Call it a human being and I won't feel bad about aborting one.

 

CrustyGoblinFoot likes your comment. :thumbup:

 

"Fertilized egg" connotes images of a chicken egg.

 

"Murder" connotes images of someone going around stabbing people who all have hopes, dreams, opinions, personalities, hobbies, jobs, families, pets, homes, etc. because they felt like it.

[obfuscator]

 

Your definition of "murder" has "murder" in it.

 

Abortion is intentional. It can be unwarranted, but there are a handful of good reasons out there in my opinion. Living, absolutely. Human, of course because it doesn't fall into any other specie of animal.

 

I guess my main gripe is that I believe some acts of killing are warranted, and thus are more accurately described as "killing" rather than "murder" because it changes the connotation.

 

Here's a hypothetical example, but please know that I am not equating this to abortion: You are a medic in a war and you just ran completely out of supplies. Then you see one of your own soldiers, pale skinned with several holes in his chest, suffering immensely from great blood loss. You radio for help and discover the nearest medic is not only hours away in distance, but also have enemy forces along the way. Scientifically, it looks like he will last less than an hour unless he gets medical attention. The man asks you to please kill him, so you do. Is it murder or did you simply kill him because the situation warrants it?

 

 

Oops, meant to say killing.

 

Well, in our society, thats up for grabs. Robert Semrau for example: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/837505--capt-robert-semrau-found-not-guilty-of-murder

 

Got off on the murder charge, but convicted of inappropriate behaviour and dismissed from the military.

 

Also, your example isn't quite the same since an unborn baby doesn't ask to be aborted.

[Skeptical]

Abortion: Intentional - certainly. Unwarranted - almost always, and in the cases where it is warranted I've no moral objection. Living - a fetus is biologically alive. This is scientific fact. Human - this one is a little more up for grabs.

 

Unwarranted? You're preventing yet another unwanted child in the world, another kid to be abused, thrown away, or just end up drifting aimlessly through social programs until they hit a dead end. When do you think it's warranted? Rape? Disease?

 

Yes, it's alive. No one could possibly doubt that. But so was the burger I'm planning to eat for dinner tonight.