Abortion

[obfuscator]

Abortion: Intentional - certainly. Unwarranted - almost always, and in the cases where it is warranted I've no moral objection. Living - a fetus is biologically alive. This is scientific fact. Human - this one is a little more up for grabs.

 

Unwarranted? You're preventing yet another unwanted child in the world, another kid to be abused, thrown away, or just end up drifting aimlessly through social programs until they hit a dead end. When do you think it's warranted? Rape? Disease?

 

Yes, it's alive. No one could possibly doubt that. But so was the burger I'm planning to eat for dinner tonight.

 

When is murder warranted? When another life is directly in danger. Thus, an abortion is warranted when the life of the mother is directly in danger.

 

I also find it a little odd you assume every aborted child would have been a burnout anyway...

[Skeptical]

Abortion: Intentional - certainly. Unwarranted - almost always, and in the cases where it is warranted I've no moral objection. Living - a fetus is biologically alive. This is scientific fact. Human - this one is a little more up for grabs.

 

Unwarranted? You're preventing yet another unwanted child in the world, another kid to be abused, thrown away, or just end up drifting aimlessly through social programs until they hit a dead end. When do you think it's warranted? Rape? Disease?

 

Yes, it's alive. No one could possibly doubt that. But so was the burger I'm planning to eat for dinner tonight.

 

When is murder warranted? When another life is directly in danger. Thus, an abortion is warranted when the life of the mother is directly in danger.

 

I also find it a little odd you assume every aborted child would have been a burnout anyway...

 

Well, the life of the mother isn't in danger. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html

 

Now, we can move on to disease: you believe that even children who are so badly defective they won't live for more than a few days, or even hours, should not be aborted? After all, most of them can be delivered quite safely.

[obfuscator]

Abortion: Intentional - certainly. Unwarranted - almost always, and in the cases where it is warranted I've no moral objection. Living - a fetus is biologically alive. This is scientific fact. Human - this one is a little more up for grabs.

 

Unwarranted? You're preventing yet another unwanted child in the world, another kid to be abused, thrown away, or just end up drifting aimlessly through social programs until they hit a dead end. When do you think it's warranted? Rape? Disease?

 

Yes, it's alive. No one could possibly doubt that. But so was the burger I'm planning to eat for dinner tonight.

 

When is murder warranted? When another life is directly in danger. Thus, an abortion is warranted when the life of the mother is directly in danger.

 

I also find it a little odd you assume every aborted child would have been a burnout anyway...

 

Well, the life of the mother isn't in danger. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html

 

Now, we can move on to disease: you believe that even children who are so badly defective they won't live for more than a few days, or even hours, should not be aborted? After all, most of them can be delivered quite safely.

 

I've never understood this "situationally justified abortion". Let's reason things out.

 

IF you believe that an embryo is a human being (which you may not) the circumstances of its conception have no bearing on the morality of destroying it.

That's like saying "your brother shot me in the head, so it's ok for me to kill you".

 

You said it yourself: most of them can be delivered quite safely. Why should they be aborted if they will just die anyway?

[sees_all1]

"Fertilized egg" connotes images of a chicken egg.

 

"Murder" connotes images of someone going around stabbing people who all have hopes, dreams, opinions, personalities, hobbies, jobs, families, pets, homes, etc. because they felt like it.

 

Then substitute "murder" for "kill for profit", "kill an innocent", "scrape then suck out with a vacuum", "dismember then remove piece by piece". Take your pick, because while unsavory none of these phrases are entirely inaccurate.

[Zierro]

Also, your example isn't quite the same since an unborn baby doesn't ask to be aborted.

 

Of course, I didn't mean to equate it to abortion. I was just pointing out a case where killing should not be considered murder.

 

But as for abortion, a fetus is more advanced than sperm, but not quite as advanced as people like us, especially in the sense of not having hopes, dreams, and social relationship. That is why I think the connotation from "murder" is a bit harsh. It isn't just a matter of biology, but situation as well.

[Blyaunte]

"Fertilized egg" connotes images of a chicken egg.

 

"Murder" connotes images of someone going around stabbing people who all have hopes, dreams, opinions, personalities, hobbies, jobs, families, pets, homes, etc. because they felt like it.

 

Then substitute "murder" for "kill for profit", "kill an innocent", "scrape then suck out with a vacuum", "dismember then remove piece by piece". Take your pick, because while unsavory none of these phrases are entirely inaccurate.

 

Actually -- all of those phrases are entirely inaccurate, inasmuch as 90% of all abortions performed in the United States occur prior to the 8th week, when the fetus is merely a cluster of cells, less than a half-inch long, having no identifiable shape or form, no brain, no heartbeat or any other identifier to make it appear "human" to anyone except those with hysterical imaginations ...

[Giordano]

I don't mind scraping off piece by piece of a human being then cleaning up the bits with a vaccum cleaner. I do what I need to do.

[obfuscator]

"Fertilized egg" connotes images of a chicken egg.

 

"Murder" connotes images of someone going around stabbing people who all have hopes, dreams, opinions, personalities, hobbies, jobs, families, pets, homes, etc. because they felt like it.

 

Then substitute "murder" for "kill for profit", "kill an innocent", "scrape then suck out with a vacuum", "dismember then remove piece by piece". Take your pick, because while unsavory none of these phrases are entirely inaccurate.

 

Actually -- all of those phrases are entirely inaccurate, inasmuch as 90% of all abortions performed in the United States occur prior to the 8th week, when the fetus is merely a cluster of cells, less than a half-inch long, having no identifiable shape or form, no brain, no heartbeat or any other identifier to make it appear "human" to anyone except those with hysterical imaginations ...

 

Ahh yes, if it doesn't "look" human it definitely isn't.

 

We should stick this guy into a vacuum. It'll be ok, he doesn't have limbs.

[Blyaunte]

"Fertilized egg" connotes images of a chicken egg.

 

"Murder" connotes images of someone going around stabbing people who all have hopes, dreams, opinions, personalities, hobbies, jobs, families, pets, homes, etc. because they felt like it.

 

Then substitute "murder" for "kill for profit", "kill an innocent", "scrape then suck out with a vacuum", "dismember then remove piece by piece". Take your pick, because while unsavory none of these phrases are entirely inaccurate.

 

Actually -- all of those phrases are entirely inaccurate, inasmuch as 90% of all abortions performed in the United States occur prior to the 8th week, when the fetus is merely a cluster of cells, less than a half-inch long, having no identifiable shape or form, no brain, no heartbeat or any other identifier to make it appear "human" to anyone except those with hysterical imaginations ...

 

Ahh yes, if it doesn't "look" human it definitely isn't.

 

We should stick this guy into a vacuum. It'll be ok, he doesn't have limbs.

 

Over-simplification troll is over-simplification. :rolleyes:

 

Does he have a heartbeat? Does he have a brain? Is he self-aware?

 

Are you REALLY trying to equate a clump of cells with that guy? Seriously?

[obfuscator]

No, you equated them when you implied something must appear to be human to be human.

[Blyaunte]

No, you equated them when you implied something must appear to be human to be human.

 

No - I said it did not meet the requirements to be considered "human" -- there is more to being human than mere appearances ...

 

If one does not have a human brain or heartbeat, is it human?

[Dupin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEFWDYB0rWo&feature=player_embedded

 

Husband confronts abortion protesters

 

After activists yell at his wife outside a clinic, he gives them a piece of his mind and videotapes the whole thing

 

Were used to seeing videos of anti-abortion activists spewing venom in front of womens clinics, but rarely do we get to see the tables turned. Thanks to Aaron Gouveia, now we do.

 

He and his 16-weeks-pregnant wife went to a womens clinic in Brookline, Mass. for an abortion after discovering that their baby had a congenital deformity with no chance for survival. On their way in, they were confronted by images of dismembered fetuses and two women yelling, Youre killing your unborn baby! Enraged, Gouveia decided to confront the protesters while his wife was in surgery, and he caught the whole interaction on his cellphone.

You're about two pages late.

[fakeitormakeit2]

I'm pro-choice. If I have a child, it's my child to kill, it is my property. Especially if I know it's going to have a disability, it's only fair for me to kill it so it doesn't live life disabled. Why should I have to suffer the inconvenience of caring for a responsibility that I brought about when I can just get ride out of it? It's like a get-out-of-jail monopoly card, no strings attached. I also think that one should be able to euthanize their child(ren) until they're old enough to be reason, because what if you realize after they're born you don't want them anymore? And it's cruel to put them up for an adoption, so we might as well kill them. [/sarcasm]

[Giordano]

I'm pro-choice. If I have a child, it's my child to kill, it is my property. Especially if I know it's going to have a disability, it's only fair for me to kill it so it doesn't live life disabled. Why should I have to suffer the inconvenience of caring for a responsibility that I brought about when I can just get ride out of it? It's like a get-out-of-jail monopoly card, no strings attached.

I agreed up to there until I realized it was a [/sarcasm] post.

 

But that part sure wasn't.

[Alg]

Aren't there pro-lifers who think it's okay in the case of rapes/danger to the mother or child?

[Alg]

Of course they are. Whatever makes it easier for you to demonize your target of choice.

 

This is definitely not a morally gray topic anyway, and there is truly only one right answer. Anyone who does not support that must clearly be evil incarnate, and thus not worth listening to. Obviously it is in our best interest to further divide ourselves by perpetuating the us/them mentality that has led to pretty much every conflict in human history. It is our duty to our children.

 

And if you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[obfuscator]

No, you equated them when you implied something must appear to be human to be human.

 

No - I said it did not meet the requirements to be considered "human" -- there is more to being human than mere appearances ...

 

If one does not have a human brain or heartbeat, is it human?

 

Ok, what about the girl who survived for 9 hours without a heart? Or people who are braindead? Are they not human?

[Alg]

The thing that people seem to forget is that in most cases an unborn child will become the kind of fully functioning human that could type a message board post like this.

[Iamdan]

The thing that people seem to forget is that in most cases an unborn child will become the kind of fully functioning human that could type a message board post like this.

 

Yeah but there plenty of other born children that can't because they live in poverty. Using the money it costs to raise a child to save third world families contributes to life in a more cost effective manner.

 

Anti abortion is a gut decision. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but that's what it is. That's why you tend to see more women who are anti abortion, because they go by their emotions and rationalize it after more than men. Again, I'm saying it's different, not that it's a bad thing.

 

We're hardwired to protect our species. It's a great reason for not liking abortion, but in todays world it's not a great reason against abortion itself.

 

Suffering and murder is embedded into our culture. Abortion is killing yes, but relative to what goes on, it's really not all that bad.

 

Animals are no better than people, and most of us happily eat them. For those who don't, they eat food harvested by machines that kill animals. Buying clothing made from sweatshops is more convenient than finding clothing that hasn't been..

 

Avoiding killing is too inconvenient for everybody, which makes it a terrible argument against abortion. Less death is no better if it could have been avoided.

[Skeptical]

Worry about the people that already suffer lives not worth living, then worry about making sure there are more people to suffer.

[sees_all1]

when it really comes down to it pro-lifers hate women. They care only about the baby for 9 months, then allow the single mother to be in poverty and then send the kid to die in a war on their 18th birthday.

 

Such would be the republican agenda

You know what's appalling? The number of abortionists that are convicted felons.

http://abortionviolence.com/INDEX.HTM

You know is sad?A 2009 study showed that 64% of woman feel pressure to have an abortion.

 

You say that pro-lifers hate women, but we're the ones that are running extensive networks to help crisis pregnancies. Half of being a sidewalk counselor is knowing where to take women after they change their minds. The other half usually involves praying in front of an abortion facility.

But really, under all that prayer and support for total strangers, we really do hate women.

[Iamdan]

Relax, he's just repeating something he saw in a george carlin clip.

[Skeptical]

when it really comes down to it pro-lifers hate women. They care only about the baby for 9 months, then allow the single mother to be in poverty and then send the kid to die in a war on their 18th birthday.

 

Such would be the republican agenda

You know what's appalling? The number of abortionists that are convicted felons.

http://abortionviolence.com/INDEX.HTM

You know is sad?A 2009 study showed that 64% of woman feel pressure to have an abortion.

 

You say that pro-lifers hate women, but we're the ones that are running extensive networks to help crisis pregnancies. Half of being a sidewalk counselor is knowing where to take women after they change their minds. The other half usually involves praying in front of an abortion facility.

But really, under all that prayer and support for total strangers, we really do hate women.

 

You don't hate them: but you are misguided enough to seriously set back equality in modern society.

 

I've seen anti-abortionists in front of clinics, and it's not pretty: in general, it involves harassing women, their husbands and boyfriends, death threats directed at doctors, etc.

 

Prayer costs nothing and does nothing. I don't see your point.

 

I would like to see the statistics for doctors who don't perform abortions: how many have been either accused of, and convicted of malpractice? In this age of lawyers, I have to wonder if the numbers wouldn't be telling.

[Alg]

I've seen anti-abortionists in front of clinics, and it's not pretty: in general, it involves harassing women, their husbands and boyfriends, death threats directed at doctors, etc.

And you see pro-choicers who stop just short of death threats but make up for it by being hypocritically elitist and encouraging abortion rather than, you know, choice. Why is it okay to judge the pro-lifers by their most extreme but not the pro-choicers? I'm pro choice and would hate to be compared to the gentleman who took a video of himself harassing women. I wouldn't want to compare Sees_all to the guy that bombs abortion clinics either.

 

We're all too willing to overlook the flaws of people that we agree with simply because we agree with them.

[KittyKat]

What makes killing something that isn't sentient wrong?