Right. Because most immigrants are illiterate and there isn't already a wall with large numbers of armed guards.

Jesus I hope you're being sarcastic.

Right. Because most immigrants are illiterate and there isn't already a wall with large numbers of armed guards.

Jesus I hope you're being sarcastic.

You just insult my views because you don't have solid facts to disprove them.

 

;) Don't make me start adding [/sarcasm] tags.

Right. Because most immigrants are illiterate and there isn't already a wall with large numbers of armed guards.

Jesus I hope you're being sarcastic.

You just insult my views because you don't have solid facts to disprove them.

 

;) Don't make me start adding [/sarcasm] tags.

:razz:

Your ignorance is vast. If it was just paperwork, the only "immigrants" that would enter illegally will be drug smugglers and REAL criminals. It's the wait time on the paperwork that forces immigrants to illegally get in the country. If it was a much faster process with a greater chance on being "Accepted" then we would not have this problem.

 

As for the wall, if conservatives are so against spending money why is building a huge wall any different? Oh wait, money spent on oppressing others is okay.

Keeping the borders closed to drug smugglers and REAL criminals is a good reason to build a wall. Otherwise, they'd just cross freely when they wanted to and commit crimes, like beheading someone.

 

And going to a government agency, filling out paperwork is a real drag. Why do that when you can just walk across the desert? Streamlining immigration is a good goal, but it doesn't matter much if we don't protect our borders.

 

Also, building a wall falls under national defense, which is the type of limited government we're wanting.

Your ignorance is vast. If it was just paperwork, the only "immigrants" that would enter illegally will be drug smugglers and REAL criminals. It's the wait time on the paperwork that forces immigrants to illegally get in the country. If it was a much faster process with a greater chance on being "Accepted" then we would not have this problem.

 

As for the wall, if conservatives are so against spending money why is building a huge wall any different? Oh wait, money spent on oppressing others is okay.

Keeping the borders closed to drug smugglers and REAL criminals is a good reason to build a wall. Otherwise, they'd just cross freely when they wanted to and commit crimes, like beheading someone.

 

And going to a government agency, filling out paperwork is a real drag. Why do that when you can just walk across the desert? Streamlining immigration is a good goal, but it doesn't matter much if we don't protect our borders.

It hardly is a good reason. First of all, out of the millions of illegals in this country right now only a few thousands are actual criminals with relations to gangs and drug cartels. Secondly, if you adopt such ideas like blocking-off-crime-spots, you better start working on walls around Compton, Vegas, El Paso, etc. But that isn't fair because it's oppressing American citizens. Not people, just folks with the title "citizen". Thirdly, a wall won't stop organized crime. Drug cartels already have tunnels under the border and, oh my God, citizens working for them! That almost nullifies the wall entirely.

 

Again, this is showing your ignorance on the whole subject. Doing paperwork isn't the PASSAGE into the country, it's the GUARANTEE, you won't get kicked out. You'll be surprised how many immigrants will go for hours writing paperwork if that means they can stay. My own parents, when Clinton issued a raffle, spent hours and hours making and sending multiple letters in hopes to be accepted. That's the use of paperwork, not for the citizen status, but for a certificate that says you can be here. Ease of mind.

 

Keeping the borders closed to drug smugglers and REAL criminals is a good reason to build a wall

 

 

Maybe American citizens should stop supporting drug cartels then

It hardly is a good reason. First of all, out of the millions of illegals in this country right now only a few thousands are actual criminals with relations to gangs and drug cartels. Secondly, if you adopt such ideas like blocking-off-crime-spots, you better start working on walls around Compton, Vegas, El Paso, etc. But that isn't fair because it's oppressing American citizens. Not people, just folks with the title "citizen". Thirdly, a wall won't stop organized crime. Drug cartels already have tunnels under the border and, oh my God, citizens working for them! That almost nullifies the wall entirely.

No, it doesn't. Tunnels are costly to make, and once found are easy to fill. And the current situation in Arizona is oppressing American citizens near the borders - you know, the ones that have to fear for their lives because of gang violence from Mexico?

 

Again, this is showing your ignorance on the whole subject. Doing paperwork isn't the PASSAGE into the country, it's the GUARANTEE, you won't get kicked out. You'll be surprised how many immigrants will go for hours writing paperwork if that means they can stay. My own parents, when Clinton issued a raffle, spent hours and hours making and sending multiple letters in hopes to be accepted. That's the use of paperwork, not for the citizen status, but for a certificate that says you can be here. Ease of mind.

I don't have a problem with legal immigration, but I think reforming immigration policies is a waste of time when it is too easy to just walk across the desert with nothing to stop you.

The first thing we need to do to solving our problems with illegal immigrants is to stop the act of illegal immigration - physically stop people from crossing the border. The second step is to deal with those that are already here illegally. If that means granting amnesty, fine. If that means going on a witch hunt, whatever. The third step is reforming the immigration process. Probably another step is to help Mexico get their crap together, but I doubt that will happen in the near future.

 

I don't believe that jailing illegal immigrants should be involved in that process at all. Either let them stay, or ship them home.

 

 

Making it difficult for people to get in the United States illegally, in my opinion, is a good goal.

Tunnels are not costly to make, we're talking about a meter-wide tunnel, a step below a trench. You're underestimating the power and determination of the drug cartels. They'll make more or think of other ways to transport their goods.

 

With the endangerment of American citizens, that should be a prime motivation to fix immigration. Secure the border from criminals, but willing-to-work immigrants should not be considered as criminals. 99% of illegal immigration is not happening to do criminal activities, it's the other way around.

 

AND YET AGAIN you do not understand the situation. Immigrants don't want to cross the desert then get kicked out. If we reform immigration, they can do however many hours of paperwork, get over here, and stay. You think immigrants come here without a worry about the world. That is COMPLETELY false.

 

What we need to do is change the laws first, so those who are willing to stay and become residents/work permits, they can come forward.

 

Why do you think people risk their lives crossing the desert, then risk all their journey by getting kicked out?

Of course you support making it hard to get here. The economy improves with immigration reform in the US, but, you know, ignore it:

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/07/local/la-me-immig7-2010jan07

 

Even during the ongoing recession, immigration reform legislation that legalizes undocumented immigrants would boost the American economy, according to a new study out of UCLA.

 

The report said that legalization, along with a program that allows for future immigration based on the labor market, would create jobs, increase wages and generate more tax revenue. Comprehensive immigration reform would add an estimated $1.5 trillion to the U.S. gross domestic product over 10 years, according to the report.

 

Keep your protectionism up! Wait, don't you support free trade? Why are you protecting inflated wages, especially for professionals like doctors and lawyers?

 

There's a reason why the conservative magazine Reason supports the same immigration policies that I do.

Good thing you brought that up, increasing taxes and all.

 

#1 reason Americans don't want immigration: they "hog up" all our welfare but they don't pay nothing.

 

Legalize them...

 

Dada, they now have to pay taxes. They don't, jail them, like everybody else.

I don't like this idea one bit. In fact, the idiot who suggested it should be disbarred from lawmaking forever. Really, taking their freedom, forcing what could be seen as slave labor on them, and they won't have any rights due to being in prison? This rubs me the wrong way on so many levels it's unbelievable. At least, that's how I'm seeing it.

 

And it's funny, all those lawmakers are getting sponsored... by prisons, no less. And deporting should still be the main method of dealing with illegal immigrants. I mean, if it isn't broken, why fix it?

 

The problem is that immigration in the United States is broken. The feds have proven themselves unable (or unwilling) to control illegal immigration as is their job through ICE, so Arizona took matters into its own hands. While it is not an ideal solution, it is not a bad one, either. As to taking peoples' freedom - just remember that those people broke the law under both the old and new definitions. Arizona is simply enforcing laws which already exist.

 

I won't deny that immigration is a problem, even if this is something of a solution. I'm only saying this can and probably will set one nasty precedent for other bills like this. Even then, what guarantee is there that the prisoners will be treated fairly? This almost violates the 15th Amendment of the Constitution, if only for the fact that the Constitution doesn't cover non-citizens, and if anyone who was a citizen is forced into this, then it WILL violate it. Those that are already here though, shouldn't be punished under this bill though. I say this as a person who simply thinks that forcing anyone into what is essentially slavery is absolutely disgusting, no matter the precedent. I don't think they'll be seeing freedom, or the fruits of their efforts.

 

If these immigrants can be granted something for this, whether it be citizenship and freedom, then I'd be all for it provided there were protections in place for prisoners.

 

The 15th amendment guarantees citizens the right to vote. As illegal aliens - by defenition - have no right to vote, the 15th amendment does not apply to them. Further, sending people to prison is hardly slavery - legal codes with provisions for imprisonment have existed for thousands of years, and they are not considered to be "slavery"; breaking the law is just cause for being sent to jail.

 

You know you just discribed the Berlin Wall?

 

You REALLY want America to become the oppressor they so long fought against?

 

Use some common sense and respect for your fellow man first, people.

 

Berlin Wall really was meant for keeping people in East Berlin, not out. The problem is immigrants, not emigrants.

It doesn't matter. Building a wall to have guards, which would have to be able to shoot for their purpose there is otherwise useless, to keep people locked in their hellhole and not giving them a chance to change their lives for the better, is the same thing as the Soviet Union did to their residents.

 

Walls are not the solution. Banning people from entering this country, is not the solution either. Being a big racist jackass about it, is certainly not the solution for it either.

 

I don't believe he ever claimed a racist basis for his post - only that those without a legal right to live in the country should not break the law to get there. Further the Berlin wall is not comparable to any wall on the southern US border; it is intended only to keep others out, not restricting those inside from coming and going as they please. While maintaining respect for all humans is important, allowing Mexico to use the United States as a pressure relief valve to avoid confronting their own problems is wrong.

 

A wall is most definitely not the answer. I know hundreds of illegal immigrants that work on the dairy farms back home in WI for dirt wages but they don't care because it's better than life was before they came here. There needs to be punishment not for the immigrants, but for the businesses that hire them.

 

As a practical matter, tackling both the supply and demand side of the equation is likely the most efficient way of reducing illegal immigration. Stiff penalties for both business owners and employees would be far more effective then simply focusing on one side of the equation as is usually done now (barring the occasional high profile raids ICE is known to be fond of).

 

Arizona "taking it into their own hands" is unconstitutional. Immigration is clearly a power outlined specifically for the Federal Government, not to mention that this law violates so many other amendments.

 

Which is precisely why the law is not perfect. Ideally immigration law would be enforced by the federal government, but as it stands they are not, such that states really have no other practical option but to enforce the laws themselves.

 

 

How can you say it's "not a bad one"? This is going to increase the Prison Industrial Complex's power in this country. It's bad enough we have a MIC that will whine if we shave off $1 trillion over 10 years, we don't need another bloated industry stealing tax payer money for things that don't work and make problems worse. .

 

Privately run prisons exist precisely because they are run more efficiently then the government runs prisons. Nobody is "stealing" taxpayer money - if anything they are saving it.

 

 

The PIC makes more criminals than it imprisons, it doesn't rectify problems in society.

 

Incorrect; prisons (in general) tend to make petty criminals worse after they are reintroduced into society, as they tend to have a certain disdain for it following release. The point of sentencing illegal immigrants to short prison stints is to give them an incentive to not return to the United States following their deportation. To this end the plan should work - why return to a place where people threw you in jail for a few months?

 

It's outright disgusting and definitely revealing of your character that you see this as "not a bad solution."

 

Please refrain from personal attacks. They add little to the discussion.

 

It's not even a solution; some expect the problem to grow worse specifically because of the law,

 

Simple logic would dictate this is untrue. Why would stiffer penalties for breaking a law actually encourage people to commit a crime?

 

 

and it is expected to harm the economy of Arizona.

 

In this you are likely correct. Most economic models show an economic benefit to large scale immigration, but until comprehensive immigration reform occurs Arizona has no other options.

 

 

Immigration to the US is broken, and it's not because of lax Federal enforcement of the border, it's lax enforcement over businesses who hire and exploit their slave labor;

 

Slave labor is, by definition, forced, uncompensated work. illegal immigrants take jobs by their own free will (indeed, they go to great lengths to do so) and are paid for their work according to the prevailing market wage for that job.Thus they are not enslaved by any stretch of the imagination

 

 

not to mention the length of time it takes to immigrate here legally, nor the hoops one has to jump through to make it so:

 

[hide]http://reason.org/fi...f458f116079.pdf

 

[/hide]

 

Your entire chart here is highly misleading and outright incorrect. First, immigration procedures for skilled immigrants are far easier then you have indicated here - no wait times exist for work permits, and being a citizen is unnecessary to live and work in the United States - green card holders are entitled to all the rights of American citizens with the exceptions that they cannot vote or hold public office.

Personally, I'm staunchly against illegal immigration to America. We get the blue-collar working class of illegal immigrants that don't pay taxes, somehow vote, get false papers/licenses and drive (often dangerously), and receive all kinds of aid from our government. The money spent on illegal immigrants and "feel good" things (like scholarships that only award money based on race or citizenship) bring down the level of comfort for the rest of society. I have some friends (one from Russia, the other from Brazil) whose parents are both legal immigrants, and they (and their families) have nothing but contempt for illegal immigrants, mostly because illegals have it far easier and broke the law to get to the US. If somebody decided to come and be America's problem, detain them. Send them back. Don't allow them or their children to benefit from what we have to offer.

And that is the reason that the American Dream is dead:

 

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.... for me and my own.

And that is the reason that the American Dream is dead:

 

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.... for me and my own.

 

I'm not sure that they factored in immigration that causes way too many problems. Or a huge populace.

I don't like this idea one bit. In fact, the idiot who suggested it should be disbarred from lawmaking forever. Really, taking their freedom, forcing what could be seen as slave labor on them, and they won't have any rights due to being in prison? This rubs me the wrong way on so many levels it's unbelievable. At least, that's how I'm seeing it.

 

And it's funny, all those lawmakers are getting sponsored... by prisons, no less. And deporting should still be the main method of dealing with illegal immigrants. I mean, if it isn't broken, why fix it?

 

The problem is that immigration in the United States is broken. The feds have proven themselves unable (or unwilling) to control illegal immigration as is their job through ICE, so Arizona took matters into its own hands. While it is not an ideal solution, it is not a bad one, either. As to taking peoples' freedom - just remember that those people broke the law under both the old and new definitions. Arizona is simply enforcing laws which already exist.

 

I won't deny that immigration is a problem, even if this is something of a solution. I'm only saying this can and probably will set one nasty precedent for other bills like this. Even then, what guarantee is there that the prisoners will be treated fairly? This almost violates the 15th Amendment of the Constitution, if only for the fact that the Constitution doesn't cover non-citizens, and if anyone who was a citizen is forced into this, then it WILL violate it. Those that are already here though, shouldn't be punished under this bill though. I say this as a person who simply thinks that forcing anyone into what is essentially slavery is absolutely disgusting, no matter the precedent. I don't think they'll be seeing freedom, or the fruits of their efforts.

 

If these immigrants can be granted something for this, whether it be citizenship and freedom, then I'd be all for it provided there were protections in place for prisoners.

 

The 15th amendment guarantees citizens the right to vote. As illegal aliens - by defenition - have no right to vote, the 15th amendment does not apply to them. Further, sending people to prison is hardly slavery - legal codes with provisions for imprisonment have existed for thousands of years, and they are not considered to be "slavery"; breaking the law is just cause for being sent to jail.

 

Forcing immigrants to do slave labor, to where they only do work and don't see anything of it is a violation of human rights, and isn't something I'd stand for.. And I didn't quite mean what I stated about the amendment. The point I'm aiming for is that forcing what is essentially slavery is absurd. It'd be like imprisoning Americans who go to Canada and making them work in a factory for nothing and keeping them captive. I'd be all for this law if protections were in place so they aren't exploited unreasonably, but so far I haven't seen any.

 

And for the record, I'm neutral towards the immigration issue. I just don't agree on locking people up and forcing labor on them, then not letting them see any of the fruits of their labor.

And that is the reason that the American Dream is dead:

 

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.... for me and my own.

 

I'm not sure that they factored in immigration that causes way too many problems. Or a huge populace.

 

Except statistics don't support those "problems", and I don't think that the American population has reached critical levels yet.

 

But that's alright, we'll just alter the fundamental rights and values of what used to be the most free society in the world because a few Republicans are afraid of brown people.

You're living in a fairly nice house compared to some others on the block, and you have quite a few people living there with you. Another guy is caught sneaking into the house, hoping to go unnoticed, because he wants the food and shelter your house has to offer. You can't just let him stay, so you have two choices:

 

A) Send him back outside.

B) Chain him up in your basement and force him to work as a slave for the rest of his life.

 

Apparently, Arizona has made up its mind.

If they can't get in illegally, we only have to deport them once. If its as simple as walking a couple miles through the desert, it doesn't matter how good "the system" is because it'll still be a bureaucracy. If I could get my license without having to visit the bureau of motor vehicles, I'd do it. Translate that to, if I could live in America without going through an immigration office, I'd do it.

If they can't get in illegally, we only have to deport them once. If its as simple as walking a couple miles through the desert, it doesn't matter how good "the system" is because it'll still be a bureaucracy. If I could get my license without having to visit the bureau of motor vehicles, I'd do it. Translate that to, if I could live in America without going through an immigration office, I'd do it.

No no no you got it all wrong. Its accurately described as "If I could drive my car without having to visit the bureau of motor vehicles, I'd do it." The license is the papers to be able to drive/live here. While you can drive your car unregistered, you always run the chance of the police taking your car and imprison/fine you.

 

And trust me, the immigrants with good intentions don't want to leave behind their new found homes, children, and life here.

 

 

I often wonder how many people posting their opinions here and anywhere else actually live in the southern border states, where the majority of anti-immigration laws are targeted at people who cross there.

And that is the reason that the American Dream is dead:

 

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.... for me and my own.

 

I'm not sure that they factored in immigration that causes way too many problems. Or a huge populace.

 

Except statistics don't support those "problems", and I don't think that the American population has reached critical levels yet.

 

But that's alright, we'll just alter the fundamental rights and values of what used to be the most free society in the world because a few Republicans are afraid of brown people.

Right. The idea that economic troubles are caused by immigrants and minorities is a myth, and a dangerous one at that. See also: Holocaust.

 

If they can't get in illegally, we only have to deport them once. If its as simple as walking a couple miles through the desert, it doesn't matter how good "the system" is because it'll still be a bureaucracy. If I could get my license without having to visit the bureau of motor vehicles, I'd do it. Translate that to, if I could live in America without going through an immigration office, I'd do it.

You know, you keep saying it's as easy as walking through the desert to get into Arizona, but I'm not sure you're right. Many security forces were already in place when Obama came into the presidency, and one of the first things he did was step up the security along the southern border. Walls and guards exist there already, you know.

You're living in a fairly nice house compared to some others on the block, and you have quite a few people living there with you. Another guy is caught sneaking into the house, hoping to go unnoticed, because he wants the food and shelter your house has to offer. You can't just let him stay, so you have two choices:

 

A) Send him back outside.

B) Chain him up in your basement and force him to work as a slave for the rest of his life.

 

Apparently, Arizona has made up its mind.

 

I still don't understand where this "slave" analogy originates from.

And that is the reason that the American Dream is dead:

 

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.... for me and my own.

 

I'm not sure that they factored in immigration that causes way too many problems. Or a huge populace.

 

Except statistics don't support those "problems", and I don't think that the American population has reached critical levels yet.

 

But that's alright, we'll just alter the fundamental rights and values of what used to be the most free society in the world because a few Republicans are afraid of brown people.

Right. The idea that economic troubles are caused by immigrants and minorities is a myth, and a dangerous one at that. See also: Holocaust.

 

Did you just compare illegal immigration to the codifier of mass genocide, of all things? I can see the comparison, but that's a bit of a jump.

 

You're living in a fairly nice house compared to some others on the block, and you have quite a few people living there with you. Another guy is caught sneaking into the house, hoping to go unnoticed, because he wants the food and shelter your house has to offer. You can't just let him stay, so you have two choices:

 

A) Send him back outside.

B) Chain him up in your basement and force him to work as a slave for the rest of his life.

 

Apparently, Arizona has made up its mind.

 

I still don't understand where this "slave" analogy originates from.

 

I think it's just an interpretation of what this law would mean for the prison corps. Essentially taking their freedom (even worse if they didn't know this law exists), forcing them to work, and profiting on the labor of others, when those who are being profited off of probably won't ever see any of the fruits of their labor. It's essentially slavery, in that regard. I'd like to see exactly how the bill would handle it, but still, from the outside, it seems like a terrible idea on account of basic human rights.

You know, you keep saying it's as easy as walking through the desert to get into Arizona, but I'm not sure you're right. Many security forces were already in place when Obama came into the presidency, and one of the first things he did was step up the security along the southern border. Walls and guards exist there already, you know.

 

More like chain link fences, or "smart" fences, which is just a bunch of infrared cameras. Sometimes its not even that, just a little portion of paved roads to allow easier access. Also, there are large areas that are designated to be national parks or wildlife refuges, and where those exist there are no fences and troops are not allowed to go in that area.

 

A double set of walls that go high and deep, made of concrete would do much better. Maybe we could make it into a raised highway. That might do better. And the "many security forces" are just a couple hundred troops stationed there, but only having a couple hundred on a border that stretches for a couple thousand...

 

 

EDIT:

As long as there are weak points in the border, we haven't done enough.

And that is the reason that the American Dream is dead:

 

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.... for me and my own.

 

I'm not sure that they factored in immigration that causes way too many problems. Or a huge populace.

 

Except statistics don't support those "problems", and I don't think that the American population has reached critical levels yet.

 

But that's alright, we'll just alter the fundamental rights and values of what used to be the most free society in the world because a few Republicans are afraid of brown people.

Right. The idea that economic troubles are caused by immigrants and minorities is a myth, and a dangerous one at that. See also: Holocaust.

 

Did you just compare illegal immigration to the codifier of mass genocide, of all things? I can see the comparison, but that's a bit of a jump.

I'm not sure you did understand. The logical reasoning behind the extremism of the Holocaust was that the Jews, along with other minorities, were the cause of Germany's economic problems. The similarity I'm pointing out is that in a time of economic turbulence, people turn to a scapegoat. Minorities are easy to target. This sort of thought process needs to be exposed and diverted before we end up doing something ridiculously immoral. Not that it would matter, anyways - the victors write the history books, right?

 

You know, you keep saying it's as easy as walking through the desert to get into Arizona, but I'm not sure you're right. Many security forces were already in place when Obama came into the presidency, and one of the first things he did was step up the security along the southern border. Walls and guards exist there already, you know.

 

More like chain link fences, or "smart" fences, which is just a bunch of infrared cameras. Sometimes its not even that, just a little portion of paved roads to allow easier access. Also, there are large areas that are designated to be national parks or wildlife refuges, and where those exist there are no fences and troops are not allowed to go in that area.

 

A double set of walls that go high and deep, made of concrete would do much better. Maybe we could make it into a raised highway. That might do better. And the "many security forces" are just a couple hundred troops stationed there, but only having a couple hundred on a border that stretches for a couple thousand...

 

EDIT:

As long as there are weak points in the border, we haven't done enough.

Alright, I will agree that they can get in relatively easily, if only for the sake of preventing useless arguments. However, I do not believe punishment is the best method of solving this problem. We need to reform how immigrants enter this country, not punish those who are stuck without any other option than to break the law.

And that is the reason that the American Dream is dead:

 

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.... for me and my own.

 

I'm not sure that they factored in immigration that causes way too many problems. Or a huge populace.

 

Except statistics don't support those "problems", and I don't think that the American population has reached critical levels yet.

 

But that's alright, we'll just alter the fundamental rights and values of what used to be the most free society in the world because a few Republicans are afraid of brown people.

Right. The idea that economic troubles are caused by immigrants and minorities is a myth, and a dangerous one at that. See also: Holocaust.

 

Did you just compare illegal immigration to the codifier of mass genocide, of all things? I can see the comparison, but that's a bit of a jump.

I'm not sure you did understand. The logical reasoning behind the extremism of the Holocaust was that the Jews, along with other minorities, were the cause of Germany's economic problems. The similarity I'm pointing out is that in a time of economic turbulence, people turn to a scapegoat. Minorities are easy to target. This sort of thought process needs to be exposed and diverted before we end up doing something ridiculously immoral. Not that it would matter, anyways - the victors write the history books, right?

 

I'm certain I did understand. You didn't need to explain it. I'm not sure that YOU understood the jump you made. I understood the logic, but still, illegal immigration to the systematic murdering of six million Jews or more certainly is a bit of a jump