Humans - The Glass Cannons?

[Assume Nothing]

Have we really conquered nature, or do we only have temporary control over it, with the ability to end it all if we ever become insane enough to do so?

 

Are we killing ourselves ecologically through global warming, toxic gases and the litter we dump onto this earth?

 

Are we on the top of the food chain, or are we merely glass cannons, being inferior to almost every predator out there without our technology?

 

Global warming, is it just an inconvenient truth?

 

Yikes, new age trolling. I miss the good old days when we would just get called fat and stupid.

 

As for vegetarianism, is it immoral that I feel empowered when eating meat off the bone? I see a lot of people claim that the idea of it would/has made them feel awful, but personally I get an endorphin rush because it's symbolic of man conquering nature so much so that we now are the nature. Admittedly though, I am a bit speciest at heart.

 

We have not conquered nature: we have temporary control over it, and the ability to end the world if our insanity ever prevails.

 

The modern world may have been paved over, sanitized, forests gone, rivers damned, mountains removed, and yet we now stand on the precipice of collapse. The evidence shows that we are racing down Hubbert's Peak, our acceleration driven by a suicidal desire to believe a finite resource can be stretched indefinitely. Our water is toxic, our air is poison to breathe, our trash coats the world, clog ecosystems, and our fertilizers turn waterways into massive algae farms.

 

We're holding a metaphorical gun to our collective head, stockpiles of nuclear weapons capable of ending all life several times over, or a far slower and more painful death by ecological suicide. That's one path - not a descent, but a dead end: there simply is nothing that way, a dead end for everything that we know. The second path is that we live. Whether or not we want to make that life anything worth living is a decision that's being made now.

 

Maybe vegetarianism is a component of the solution, maybe it's not. Will you ever manage to prevent people from eating meat? Never. It's pointless to try, simply because people's definition of freedom includes the choice of eating what they want to. So we take a different path: we can take down Big Oil, and we can stop ignoring profits above everything else. Choosing your battles is just as important as fighting them.

 

Discuss

[Arcantica]

It's our population alone that is the problem. Even if everyone turned to vegetarianism, and got away from the dependence on fossils fuels, it's not going to change much for the future. Might slow things down, but like any situation where a species has no more natural predators, the populations get out of balance and they end up messing everything up and food runs out or diseases hit, and its all over. At least China is smart enough to start taking a step in the right direction with their 'one-child policy'.

 

 

Our technologies doomed us. We evolved too much for our own good, and [bleep]ed up a lot of things along the way.

[Will H]

Well, technology is simply how humans get on so well. Relative to other species on the planet, we don't have claws or big teeth, we can't run or swim fast, we can't fly or breathe underwater, and we're fairly useless with regulating heat in extreme hot or cold, and our physical strength is average. Our sense of smell and hearing is mediocre, although we have reasonably good eyes (which don't work very well at night). What we do have is our intelligence, so we can cooperate, make tools, create things that allow us to make up for our physical limitations. Evolutionary-speaking, we're the dominant species because that method is so much more versatile than actual physical abilities. To reject that is to reject part of who we are at a fundamental level.

 

As such, technology has to be the way that we solve problems, and 'green' activists seem very keen to ignore the fact that these problems are being solved and the conditions imposed by the industrial revolution are being lifted. Our transport systems, particularly cars, are getting ever cleaner, especially now that they are fitted with catalytic converters as standard. We are developing better and better ways of generating energy from our world, and we can see a future where we get nuclear fusion sorted out, which will solve our energy problem for decades or even hundreds of years. That's enough time to actually colonise another planet like Mars or beyond.

 

The idea that population is spiralling out of control is a myth. In many countries the fertility rate is lower than the sweet spot of about 2.1 and still falling, and the rate is falling on average all over the world. That number is the rate required for children to replace their parents. Any lower than that, and the population declines in the long term as the generations move on. Japan is a prime example of this.

 

Fertility Rates

 

If you really want to help the world, get into science and help fix it. Vegetarianism and technological recession is a cop out when a long term fix is available.

[The_Gabe]

This makes you wonder how we would have looked like if we didn't have technology. :geek:

[Cacmypants]

You'll find the monetary system is the institution that's screwing us over. Yet we're too ingrained into this bogus paradigm to do anything about it.

[obfuscator]

You'll find the monetary system is the institution that's screwing us over. Yet we're too ingrained into this bogus paradigm to do anything about it.

I find this attitude strange. Humans have been around for thousands of years (maybe more) and capitalism is the best system for society. It's far from perfect but it works better then feudalism, or communism, or whatever else.

 

I also doubt that you've decided to forgo capitalism completely, as I'm sure you enjoy its many benefits.

 

I believe we are at the top of the food chain, and have conquered nature (to a degree). As said in the other topic I believe intelligence is a physical trait such as claws and teeth which has allowed us to prosper.

 

The bigger question is whether or not our domination over nature is a good things, and in many ways it isn't, with the generally terrible way we treat our planet. Anyone who's debated with me about global warming will know I'm unconvinced as to its legitimacy, but I think it's painfully obvious we're treating the earth terribly regardless of whether temperatures are rising or not.

[Cacmypants]

There is no form of government that can work well in the context of this day and age. Capitalism, just like communism, is another way to farm humans (with the semi-illusion of social mobility/freedom). Historically we've allowed the higher-ups to stray too far down the path of self-interest. All political and economic decisions are made with the past serving as the prime reference. So in other words, if our past decisions have been compoundly screwed up by this process, how can we hope to fix the future? The only way is to abandon all of our traditions/institutions and start fresh, but this will never happen. Why? Because they have the freaking guns.

[obfuscator]

There is no form of government that can work well in the context of this day and age. Capitalism, just like communism, is another way to farm humans (with the semi-illusion of social mobility/freedom). Historically we've allowed the higher-ups to stray too far down the path of self-interest. All political and economic decisions are made with the past serving as the prime reference. So in other words, if our past decisions have been compoundly screwed up by this process, how can we hope to fix the future? The only way is to abandon all of our traditions/institutions and start fresh, but this will never happen. Why? Because they have the freaking guns.

So I take it you don't buy into this capitalist agenda, and have distanced yourself from it in every way possible?

 

I find it unlikely considering in order to do that you'd have to move into the wilderness.

[Cacmypants]

Pretty much, I don't like what humanity has done to itself and I'm reluctant to be a part of it, but like most people I'm not exactly prepared for 100% social isolation (despite being such a hermit already). It's the only other option really, aside from getting your head blown off for being too radical.

[obfuscator]

Pretty much, I don't like what humanity has done to itself and I'm reluctant to be a part of it, but like most people I'm not exactly prepared for 100% social isolation. It's the only other option really, aside from getting your head blown off for being too radical.

And this is what I don't understand. You're content to criticize our system while taking full advantage of its many benefits. Seems a tad hypocritical to me...

[Cacmypants]

There are plenty of people exactly like me. Like I said, what the hell can you do? If you try to speak out in the general public, you're labelled as some sort of boogeyman political extremeist. If you flat out reject the system you either die, get incarcerated, or exiled from society. A rational human mind can't help but be a hypocrite in this instance. Does recognising a problem automatically mean you should have nothing to do with it?

[obfuscator]

There are plenty of people exactly like me, like I said, what the hell can you do? If you try to speak out in the general public, you're labelled as some sort of boogeyman political extremeist. If you flat out reject the system you either die, get incarcerated, or exiled from society. A rational human mind can't help but be a hypocrite in this instance. Does recognising a problem automatically mean you should have nothing to do with it?

Plenty of people forsake the capitalist society and go live in the wilderness...you could do that.

 

If it's really as important as you think it is you'd welcome exile from a society that you feel is good for nothing anyway.

 

A more moderate mindset accepts that no system is perfect, but it is by far the best fit for our individual and societal needs (out of the other options). As I've said before, you seem content to complain from an armchair while making no real effort to effect change.

[Cacmypants]

Ok, now you're just teasing.

 

My job is to simply spread awareness. You can't do much else until that is achieved. Then build up from there with attempts to implement smaller changes. It's pretty basic stuff. The main problem is how we've come to associate monetary wealth with authority and power which makes the notion true. Self-interested corporations and banks have the world's governments by the balls, these are pretty big obstacles to tackle on a global level.

[obfuscator]

Ok, now you're just teasing.

 

My job is to simply spread awareness. You can't do much else until that is achieved. Then build up from there with attempts to implement smaller changes. It's pretty basic stuff. The main problem is how we've come to associate monetary wealth with authority and power which makes the notion true. Self-interested corporations and banks have the world's governments by the balls, these are pretty big obstacles to tackle on a global level.

Ok, so why don't you do your little part and not provide business to said banks and self-interested corporations?

[Cacmypants]

Ok, now you're just teasing.

 

My job is to simply spread awareness. You can't do much else until that is achieved. Then build up from there with attempts to implement smaller changes. It's pretty basic stuff. The main problem is how we've come to associate monetary wealth with authority and power which makes the notion true. Self-interested corporations and banks have the world's governments by the balls, these are pretty big obstacles to tackle on a global level.

Ok, so why don't you do your little part and not provide business to said banks and self-interested corporations?

 

I don't :P a least not directly

 

Tbh, I'm waiting for everything to implode, indefinite economic growth is not as sustainable as some people think and that's what it's all about now'days. CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME. Of course nature has no economic value. What is nature? That's not a commodity. Move over nature, let me drain your blood, your blood is a commodity.

[Range_This11]

Might slow things down, but like any situation where a species has no more natural predators, the populations get out of balance and they end up messing everything up and food runs out or diseases hit, and its all over.

Cancer, AIDS, HIV, and other deadly diseases are our natural predators. We don't need another animal to kill us, our own stupidity in thinking that we can consume anything (even cancerous products) will. As good of a thing finding cures for these diseases would be, it will only contribute to our overpopulation.

[Zierro]

We don't need to fret about any of that, for we have conceptualized nihilism.

 

Although I can't help but nod my head to Cacmy's posts.

[Will H]

Ok, now you're just teasing.

 

My job is to simply spread awareness. You can't do much else until that is achieved. Then build up from there with attempts to implement smaller changes. It's pretty basic stuff. The main problem is how we've come to associate monetary wealth with authority and power which makes the notion true. Self-interested corporations and banks have the world's governments by the balls, these are pretty big obstacles to tackle on a global level.

Ok, so why don't you do your little part and not provide business to said banks and self-interested corporations?

 

I don't :P a least not directly

 

Tbh, I'm waiting for everything to implode, indefinite economic growth is not as sustainable as some people think and that's what it's all about now'days. CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME. Of course nature has no economic value. What is nature? That's not a commodity. Move over nature, let me drain your blood, your blood is a commodity.

 

I'm really not sure what you are trying to get across, it's as if you're posting from 2005. The global economy just came out of a recession caused by that mindset, and it's now been rejected by the public, governments and businesses worldwide. Economic growth is cyclical, so the best course of action is to minimise the effect of recession and thus accept it as a fact of life instead of ignoring it and suffering the consequences.

 

Seriously, what's with the pessimism people?

[Cacmypants]

Ok, now you're just teasing.

 

My job is to simply spread awareness. You can't do much else until that is achieved. Then build up from there with attempts to implement smaller changes. It's pretty basic stuff. The main problem is how we've come to associate monetary wealth with authority and power which makes the notion true. Self-interested corporations and banks have the world's governments by the balls, these are pretty big obstacles to tackle on a global level.

Ok, so why don't you do your little part and not provide business to said banks and self-interested corporations?

 

I don't :P a least not directly

 

Tbh, I'm waiting for everything to implode, indefinite economic growth is not as sustainable as some people think and that's what it's all about now'days. CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME. Of course nature has no economic value. What is nature? That's not a commodity. Move over nature, let me drain your blood, your blood is a commodity.

 

I'm really not sure what you are trying to get across, it's as if you're posting from 2005. The global economy just came out of a recession caused by that mindset, and it's now been rejected by the public, governments and businesses worldwide. Economic growth is cyclical, so the best course of action is to minimise the effect of recession and thus accept it as a fact of life instead of ignoring it and suffering the consequences.

 

Seriously, what's with the pessimism people?

 

You really think things have changed? The economy is still out of control as ever. Look at the American dollar, it continues to weaken, now it's worth less than the Australian dollar. The only reason it seems like we've broken out of this crisis is because governments and reserve banks have created so much money out of freaking thin air. You can't fix debt with more debt, it's so bloody stupid.

 

There is no doubt that making business decisions based on achieveing upward economic growth (with the current model) does more harm than good. People say growth is a good thing because it creates new jobs; Too bad these opportunities can't be taken up by the lowest common denominator since governments barely provide the faculties for them to do so. Even then, for what? So they can be exploited like all the other workers? Economic growth leads to higher incomes... sure, though disproportionally comparing the rich to the poor, the poor might actually lose wealth/income lacking the ability to keep up with inflation. What about economic growth improving public services? In theory. Like hell it does in practice.

 

We have a system that in bent on stretching inequality both within populations and between nations. It is not a good thing, I'm not going to lie to myself.

[obfuscator]

Ok, now you're just teasing.

 

My job is to simply spread awareness. You can't do much else until that is achieved. Then build up from there with attempts to implement smaller changes. It's pretty basic stuff. The main problem is how we've come to associate monetary wealth with authority and power which makes the notion true. Self-interested corporations and banks have the world's governments by the balls, these are pretty big obstacles to tackle on a global level.

Ok, so why don't you do your little part and not provide business to said banks and self-interested corporations?

 

I don't :P a least not directly

 

Tbh, I'm waiting for everything to implode, indefinite economic growth is not as sustainable as some people think and that's what it's all about now'days. CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME. Of course nature has no economic value. What is nature? That's not a commodity. Move over nature, let me drain your blood, your blood is a commodity.

 

I'm really not sure what you are trying to get across, it's as if you're posting from 2005. The global economy just came out of a recession caused by that mindset, and it's now been rejected by the public, governments and businesses worldwide. Economic growth is cyclical, so the best course of action is to minimise the effect of recession and thus accept it as a fact of life instead of ignoring it and suffering the consequences.

 

Seriously, what's with the pessimism people?

 

You really think things have changed? The economy is still out of control as ever. Look at the American dollar, it continues to weaken, now it's worth less than the Australian dollar. The only reason it seems like we've broken out of this crisis is because governments and reserve banks have created so much money out of freaking thin air. You can't fix debt with more debt, it's so bloody stupid.

I have to agree with this. The economic recovery is, I believe, temporary. We'll be hit by a worse one, and soon.

 

@cac: you said it was impossible to maintain economic growth, but that's not strictly true. It's only possible with constant population growth, which requires having kids, which western society has long since forsaken.

[Cacmypants]

Yes, population is the dominant issue here. A stable population coupled with stable economic growth alongside the embracing of new technologies would improve future prospects greatly. Alas all the wrong people are pulling the strings.

[Alg]

To sidestep the whole economics thing...

We haven't conquered nature, we're part of it. We aren't the only species that does construction and land manipulation, we're just the best at it. We probably aren't the only species that's hunted another to extinction, we just got very good at doing so over time.

Of course, it's these extremes that'll probably end up making us go extinct in the end. We're too good at these things.

[Cacmypants]

To sidestep the whole economics thing...

We haven't conquered nature, we're part of it. We aren't the only species that does construction and land manipulation, we're just the best at it. We probably aren't the only species that's hunted another to extinction, we just got very good at doing so over time.

Of course, it's these extremes that'll probably end up making us go extinct in the end. We're too good at these things.

 

Besides the fact that everything wrong with nature today is directly related to our little shenanigans concerning the economy. Humanity has long since become the should-be custodians of planet earth, yet we insist on being the contrary. It's true that we're part of nature in the sense that we can't survive without an at least tolerable ecosystem, but we most certainly have conquered the planet.

[Cacmypants]

Whatever, everyone is going to die eventually and one day this planet won't even exist. Best to enjoy it while we can, right?

 

but that's the exact attitude not to have, lol. So you think shoving our **** up planet Earth's arse is all good because it will all be gone in another 6 billion years? Humanity has the potential to expand far beyond the solar system. Wrecking up our first home will not bode well. We need to set a proper example for future generations otherwise nothing is going to happen (like you said).

[Cacmypants]

Whatever, everyone is going to die eventually and one day this planet won't even exist. Best to enjoy it while we can, right?

 

but that's the exact attitude not to have, lol. So you think shoving our **** up planet Earth's arse is all good because it will all be gone in another 6 billion years? Humanity has the potential to expand far beyond the solar system. Wrecking up our first home will not bode well. We need to set a proper example for future generations otherwise nothing is going to happen (like you said).

Why should I care about something I'll never see?

 

Nice trolling :thumbup: