Humans - The Glass Cannons?

[EarthySun]

I find it interesting that you consider everything natural besides humans. Plants are organisms, if you didn't know, and so are non-human animals. We're simply an animal that developed something that literally no other creature (to our knowledge) has yet to develop: an extreme intellect. This has allowed us to perceive different senses of time, and by planning ahead, create tools, create complicated shelters, and attempt to understand the world around us. Science has progressed us further because, by natural selection, with intelligence, we deserve to conquer. Humans are a natural part of this world, but we're certainly leaving our industrial mark. I find the idea of "us against everything else", with humans represented as evil, to be nothing short of pretentious.

 

Also, we obviously aren't glass cannons if we've thrived this much. Sure, if you pit one human (without tools) against a bear, the bear will most likely win. You're not thinking of human strengths: tools, the ability to work very well in groups, excellent communication, and the intelligence to run from any dangerous situation in which you cannot win and benefit little from. Our bodies may seem weak when compared to much larger creatures, but we make up for that. When was the last time you saw a bear protect itself with a suit of armor, or construct a barricade (bear-icade)? We are also smart enough to fight at range, and keep ourselves out of harm's way. What other creature can kill you before you get within a thousand yards of it?

[Cacmypants]

Like I said, humanity took up the reigns to protect this planet when it decided to be the dominant species (and so far scored null in this regard). We can't justify our wrong-doings with: 'after all, we're just another product of nature, therefore our actions are a natural occurance'. We should know better. By that logic everything is a natural occurance, therefore we don't need to go about changing anything because we deserve to be tyrants, it's our role.

 

So far the intelligence that has lead to much of our scientific discoveries have been bastardized into a form of destruction/control.

[Seraphi]

Without the goal of expansion, we might as well just lay down and stop doing anything. Nobody wants to be completely static, and to move forward, things must be sacrificed. These things could be everyday luxuries, or the well being of an entire planet, even our home planet. Our greatest flaw is also our largest advantage, and that is, for lack of a better word and at the risk of perhaps upsetting some people, our greed. Greed is what drives us to take and give nothing back, to push forwards and leave those who will not follow in the dust. In short, it is greed which makes us survive. It may be responsible for many horrible things in the world, but I don't believe greed itself is inherently an evil trait. After all, without it, we probably wouldn't be the dominant species in the first place.

 

With that said, I personally believe that humanity will persist no matter what happens to Earth. Humankind will survive, even if it has to kick and scream and beg to do so. Every mistake will be learned from, even if it isn't by much, and every failure taken on board, and we will keep on trying until we get it right.

[Cacmypants]

Without the goal of expansion, we might as well just lay down and stop doing anything. Nobody wants to be completely static, and to move forward, things must be sacrificed. These things could be everyday luxuries, or the well being of an entire planet, even our home planet. Our greatest flaw is also our largest advantage, and that is, for lack of a better word and at the risk of perhaps upsetting some people, our greed. Greed is what drives us to take and give nothing back, to push forwards and leave those who will not follow in the dust. In short, it is greed which makes us survive. It may be responsible for many horrible things in the world, but I don't believe greed itself is inherently an evil trait. After all, without it, we probably wouldn't be the dominant species in the first place.

 

With that said, I personally believe that humanity will persist no matter what happens to Earth. Humankind will survive, even if it has to kick and scream and beg to do so. Every mistake will be learned from, even if it isn't by much, and every failure taken on board, and we will keep on trying until we get it right.

 

A system of finite resources cannot systain indefinite expansion. Sooner or later we are going to screw ourselves over beyond repair. Sure, humanity will persist regardless, but will it be a life worth living? A select greedy few will have complete control over any means of survival, most people will be born into danger and starvation.

 

Society has taught us to be this way. We still have not let go of our primal urges and we're just blank slates as children. I didn't say progression was a bad thing, but economic growth can hardly be considered progression. If anything it holds back true progression. Greed is exactly like religion, it played a huge role in our rise to the top, but it is not necessary anymore (doing more harm than good).

[Zierro]

It is impossible to completely conquer nature, as there are laws such as death and gravity which we can never get rid of. However, there are certain things humans do which paints the picture that we have conquered many aspects of nature. Such as being on the top of the food chain, using medicine to prolong life, and having the largest impact on the planet compared to every other specie out there.

[Zygimantas]

Society has taught us to be this way. We still have not let go of our primal urges and we're just blank slates as children. I didn't say progression was a bad thing, but economic growth can hardly be considered progression. If anything it holds back true progression. Greed is exactly like religion, it played a huge role in our rise to the top, but it is not necessary anymore (doing more harm than good).

I agree. But I also realized that as a human species we are just part of the universe. If we go extinct in 50 years then its ok. Everything comes and goes, even humanity. What happens to us is just another part of the beauty of existence.

[EarthySun]

Without the goal of expansion, we might as well just lay down and stop doing anything. Nobody wants to be completely static, and to move forward, things must be sacrificed. These things could be everyday luxuries, or the well being of an entire planet, even our home planet. Our greatest flaw is also our largest advantage, and that is, for lack of a better word and at the risk of perhaps upsetting some people, our greed. Greed is what drives us to take and give nothing back, to push forwards and leave those who will not follow in the dust. In short, it is greed which makes us survive. It may be responsible for many horrible things in the world, but I don't believe greed itself is inherently an evil trait. After all, without it, we probably wouldn't be the dominant species in the first place.

 

With that said, I personally believe that humanity will persist no matter what happens to Earth. Humankind will survive, even if it has to kick and scream and beg to do so. Every mistake will be learned from, even if it isn't by much, and every failure taken on board, and we will keep on trying until we get it right.

 

A system of finite resources cannot systain indefinite expansion. Sooner or later we are going to screw ourselves over beyond repair. Sure, humanity will persist regardless, but will it be a life worth living? A select greedy few will have complete control over any means of survival, most people will be born into danger and starvation.

 

Society has taught us to be this way. We still have not let go of our primal urges and we're just blank slates as children. I didn't say progression was a bad thing, but economic growth can hardly be considered progression. If anything it holds back true progression. Greed is exactly like religion, it played a huge role in our rise to the top, but it is not necessary anymore (doing more harm than good).

Is it really greed to try and create a better situation for one's self than available? It sounds like you're saying that the only way to not be "greedy" is to suck it up and have an unchanging world. Nobody likes to settle for something that could be improved. Competition and progression are what allows success, and if we can progress farther and compete better against nearly every organism on the planet (barring survival conditions such as the sun going out, which we would almost definitely not survive), then that success is justified.

 

I'm not saying that humans have some god-given right to rule over nature, but merely that our superior design brings success naturally. I'm not saying that nature should be wiped out because everything else is inferior, but that expansion is okay. You also seem to be forgetting about all of the efforts to save nature. Not all human beings are merciless destruction-machines, but for some reason that's all you're focusing your argument on.

 

Even so, expansion is justified. In this world, it's eat or be eaten, and we're simply making goddamn sure that we won't be eaten.

[Cacmypants]

There's a difference between unchanging and sustainable. There will be a breaking point. I would not be surprised if we have already crossed the threshold.

[Zygimantas]

 

Is it really greed to try and create a better situation for one's self than available? It sounds like you're saying that the only way to not be "greedy" is to suck it up and have an unchanging world. Nobody likes to settle for something that could be improved. Competition and progression are what allows success, and if we can progress farther and compete better against nearly every organism on the planet (barring survival conditions such as the sun going out, which we would almost definitely not survive), then that success is justified.

 

I'm not saying that humans have some god-given right to rule over nature, but merely that our superior design brings success naturally. I'm not saying that nature should be wiped out because everything else is inferior, but that expansion is okay. You also seem to be forgetting about all of the efforts to save nature. Not all human beings are merciless destruction-machines, but for some reason that's all you're focusing your argument on.

 

Even so, expansion is justified. In this world, it's eat or be eaten, and we're simply making goddamn sure that we won't be eaten.

Success is just an idea, it is not needed. What greed does is create the need for success, but really there is no need.

[Guest Rob]

I have a feeling that we're going to kill ourselves off long before we can expand outside of our solar system, or even our own planet.

[Cacmypants]

I have a feeling that we're going to kill ourselves off long before we can expand outside of our solar system, or even our own planet.

 

It will take a cataclysm worthy of wiping out all of humanity to prevent that from happening. Ironic?

[Guest Rob]

Can you explain that a little better? Because I'm reading that as "We'll have to kill ourselves to prevent us from killing ourselves"

[Cacmypants]

Yep, that's what I said. Was half-joking =P

[EarthySun]

 

Is it really greed to try and create a better situation for one's self than available? It sounds like you're saying that the only way to not be "greedy" is to suck it up and have an unchanging world. Nobody likes to settle for something that could be improved. Competition and progression are what allows success, and if we can progress farther and compete better against nearly every organism on the planet (barring survival conditions such as the sun going out, which we would almost definitely not survive), then that success is justified.

 

I'm not saying that humans have some god-given right to rule over nature, but merely that our superior design brings success naturally. I'm not saying that nature should be wiped out because everything else is inferior, but that expansion is okay. You also seem to be forgetting about all of the efforts to save nature. Not all human beings are merciless destruction-machines, but for some reason that's all you're focusing your argument on.

 

Even so, expansion is justified. In this world, it's eat or be eaten, and we're simply making goddamn sure that we won't be eaten.

Success is just an idea, it is not needed. What greed does is create the need for success, but really there is no need.

By that logic, breathing air is greed, because you don't need to breathe air to live. Your life would be a lot shorter if you didn't, though.

 

I have a feeling that we're going to kill ourselves off long before we can expand outside of our solar system, or even our own planet.

I disagree. I think we're going to die off before we can expand past our solar system, but not before you we colonize another planet. There aren't a whole lot of major conflicts going on between the superpowers at the moment, and space colonization isn't that far away. The Russians are going to Mars, and the Chinese are making plans to colonize the moon.

[Zygimantas]

Success is just an idea, it is not needed. What greed does is create the need for success, but really there is no need.

By that logic, breathing air is greed, because you don't need to breathe air to live. Your life would be a lot shorter if you didn't, though.

We don't need to live, but we still do. There is no logic behind it, it just is. Greed only arises from human thought. Which is nothing but just thought.

[EarthySun]

Success is just an idea, it is not needed. What greed does is create the need for success, but really there is no need.

By that logic, breathing air is greed, because you don't need to breathe air to live. Your life would be a lot shorter if you didn't, though.

We don't need to live, but we still do. There is no logic behind it, it just is. Greed only arises from human thought. Which is nothing but just thought.

Are you kidding me? The logic is that we can accomplish more (in evolution's eyes, probably reproducing more) by breathing and living longer. Greed arises from human thought, so therefor it's not concrete? Greed is a concrete thing. It can be easily defined, observed, and isolated. (Also, thought is a mechanism to process, analyze, and plan for the future, so I'm sure thought is worth something.)

 

Here's a shocker: something that has no logical explanation cannot exist.

[Zygimantas]

Success is just an idea, it is not needed. What greed does is create the need for success, but really there is no need.

By that logic, breathing air is greed, because you don't need to breathe air to live. Your life would be a lot shorter if you didn't, though.

We don't need to live, but we still do. There is no logic behind it, it just is. Greed only arises from human thought. Which is nothing but just thought.

Are you kidding me? The logic is that we can accomplish more (in evolution's eyes, probably reproducing more) by breathing and living longer. Greed arises from human thought, so therefor it's not concrete? Greed is a concrete thing. It can be easily defined, observed, and isolated. (Also, thought is a mechanism to process, analyze, and plan for the future, so I'm sure thought is worth something.)

Accomplish more? For what? Just because something is concrete it doesn't make it true. Human thought is nothing but thought. Thought is not concrete. So something arising from thought is just as good as thought, which is really just nothing.

[EarthySun]

Success is just an idea, it is not needed. What greed does is create the need for success, but really there is no need.

By that logic, breathing air is greed, because you don't need to breathe air to live. Your life would be a lot shorter if you didn't, though.

We don't need to live, but we still do. There is no logic behind it, it just is. Greed only arises from human thought. Which is nothing but just thought.

Are you kidding me? The logic is that we can accomplish more (in evolution's eyes, probably reproducing more) by breathing and living longer. Greed arises from human thought, so therefor it's not concrete? Greed is a concrete thing. It can be easily defined, observed, and isolated. (Also, thought is a mechanism to process, analyze, and plan for the future, so I'm sure thought is worth something.)

Accomplish more? For what? Just because something is concrete it doesn't make it true. Human thought is nothing but thought. Thought is not concrete. So something arising from thought is just as good as thought, which is really just nothing.

Thought is concrete because it is physical. (Did you think it was caused by some psychic force?) And stop moving away from the actual topic. We aren't discussing whether or not thought is physical, or whether or not greed is concrete, or whether success is necessary. We're discussing whether or not humans are doing good or bad things to nature, and whether or not our thirst for success will eventually lead to our downfall.

[Zygimantas]

 

Thought is concrete because it is physical. (Did you think it was caused by some psychic force?) And stop moving away from the actual topic. We aren't discussing whether or not thought is physical, or whether or not greed is concrete, or whether success is necessary. We're discussing whether or not humans are doing good or bad things to nature, and whether or not our thirst for success will eventually lead to our downfall.

We are not doing good or bad. We are just doing, and our minds can perceive that in whichever way it wants to. If you and I see a tree and you call it beautiful and I call it ugly then what is the tree? It is neither beautiful or ugly, the tree itself is just a tree no matter what the label. I can label the tree a pig, it doesn't matter. It is what it is and nothing more or less. And yes this thirst for something that ultimately is false may lead to humans to become extinct, or it might not. But I can not say if this is a good or a bad thing. Maybe nature has extinction instead of existence in store for humans. So be it.

[EarthySun]

 

Thought is concrete because it is physical. (Did you think it was caused by some psychic force?) And stop moving away from the actual topic. We aren't discussing whether or not thought is physical, or whether or not greed is concrete, or whether success is necessary. We're discussing whether or not humans are doing good or bad things to nature, and whether or not our thirst for success will eventually lead to our downfall.

We are not doing good or bad. We are just doing, and our minds can perceive that in whichever way it wants to. If you and I see a tree and you call it beautiful and I call it ugly then what is the tree? It is neither beautiful or ugly, the tree itself is just a tree no matter what the label. I can label the tree a pig, it doesn't matter. It is what it is and nothing more or less. And yes this thirst for something that ultimately is false may lead to humans to become extinct, or it might not. But I can not say if this is a good or a bad thing. Maybe nature has extinction instead of existence in store for humans. So be it.

 

What do you mean by the bolded statement? What's ultimately false? Also, I might add, eventually all things must come to an end; it's just a matter of how long we can last.

[Cacmypants]

 

Thought is concrete because it is physical. (Did you think it was caused by some psychic force?) And stop moving away from the actual topic. We aren't discussing whether or not thought is physical, or whether or not greed is concrete, or whether success is necessary. We're discussing whether or not humans are doing good or bad things to nature, and whether or not our thirst for success will eventually lead to our downfall.

We are not doing good or bad. We are just doing, and our minds can perceive that in whichever way it wants to. If you and I see a tree and you call it beautiful and I call it ugly then what is the tree? It is neither beautiful or ugly, the tree itself is just a tree no matter what the label. I can label the tree a pig, it doesn't matter. It is what it is and nothing more or less. And yes this thirst for something that ultimately is false may lead to humans to become extinct, or it might not. But I can not say if this is a good or a bad thing. Maybe nature has extinction instead of existence in store for humans. So be it.

 

What do you mean by the bolded statement? What's ultimately false? Also, I might add, eventually all things must come to an end; it's just a matter of how long we can last.

 

Our desire to exponentially consume while putting little to no value on the environment. Also, recent discoveries point towards multiple 'big bangs', so the universe itself perhaps will not end.

[Zygimantas]

 

Thought is concrete because it is physical. (Did you think it was caused by some psychic force?) And stop moving away from the actual topic. We aren't discussing whether or not thought is physical, or whether or not greed is concrete, or whether success is necessary. We're discussing whether or not humans are doing good or bad things to nature, and whether or not our thirst for success will eventually lead to our downfall.

We are not doing good or bad. We are just doing, and our minds can perceive that in whichever way it wants to. If you and I see a tree and you call it beautiful and I call it ugly then what is the tree? It is neither beautiful or ugly, the tree itself is just a tree no matter what the label. I can label the tree a pig, it doesn't matter. It is what it is and nothing more or less. And yes this thirst for something that ultimately is false may lead to humans to become extinct, or it might not. But I can not say if this is a good or a bad thing. Maybe nature has extinction instead of existence in store for humans. So be it.

 

What do you mean by the bolded statement? What's ultimately false? Also, I might add, eventually all things must come to an end; it's just a matter of how long we can last.

I mean the thirst for success. Success is only a thought in the mind. We are all fine where we are right now, yet some want more. More for what? And I agree with your second point.

[Seraphi]

What I was trying to get across is that if we didn't have our greed and hunger for more, we may as well just sit down and do nothing forever. Greed is what drives us forward. It is greed that makes us cut down the forests to build homes that we may live more comfortable, it makes us strip the Earth bare that we may create tools to make our everyday tasks easier, it made us create medicine so that we could live longer, and it is greed which drives us to ultimately evolve (Not in a biological sense, I mean evolution in a social and economical sense) past what we were previously.

 

Greed is what makes us want more. It makes us fight for that which we wish to have, for better or worse.

 

Without greed, our passion for life is gone, and without that, there is no will to carry on.

[Cacmypants]

I would say the thirst for success/wealth is just a mask thrown over what we really want (to be recognised for our worth by other humans). The reward is shallow.

 

I would also argue that passion for life comes as a result of wanting to be recognised.

[EarthySun]

 

Thought is concrete because it is physical. (Did you think it was caused by some psychic force?) And stop moving away from the actual topic. We aren't discussing whether or not thought is physical, or whether or not greed is concrete, or whether success is necessary. We're discussing whether or not humans are doing good or bad things to nature, and whether or not our thirst for success will eventually lead to our downfall.

We are not doing good or bad. We are just doing, and our minds can perceive that in whichever way it wants to. If you and I see a tree and you call it beautiful and I call it ugly then what is the tree? It is neither beautiful or ugly, the tree itself is just a tree no matter what the label. I can label the tree a pig, it doesn't matter. It is what it is and nothing more or less. And yes this thirst for something that ultimately is false may lead to humans to become extinct, or it might not. But I can not say if this is a good or a bad thing. Maybe nature has extinction instead of existence in store for humans. So be it.

 

What do you mean by the bolded statement? What's ultimately false? Also, I might add, eventually all things must come to an end; it's just a matter of how long we can last.

 

Our desire to exponentially consume while putting little to no value on the environment.

 

It's not as if we're just rushing through everything. When we cut down trees, we re-seed the area. We have safe and environmentally-friendly (nuclear) power available. We breed animals for food and clothing instead of hunting them down in the forests (though some like to do that, but the amount they can kill is restricted so that the animals say thriving). My point being, whatever we consume we try to bring back.