Does Free Trade entail No GE Buy limits?

[PereGrin]

[hide]

@Nuke Marine

 

You come up with some of the most far fetched ideas I have seen. Hiring people to buy things for you is kind of silly when quite a few people are willing to do it for free. I have frequently bought 100 battle staves for friends, or just random people in the GE, because I don't need them. Also, there are already companies that did this for people. You could order x amount of an item, and then they would provide it after a certain time.

 

Jagex didn't have a problem with these companies. They advertised openly on the forums, and they were very useful for getting larger quantities of harder to get items. You could place an order for Dragonstones for example, and depending on how many you wanted, they would fill it.

Well, what's the problem then? Since people are doing it for free, life goes on regardless of how the GE works. If the GE disappeared, you're stuck with the same issue

 

Sales tax in RS would be generally bad for the economy. We will already be having rather large deflation once free trade comes out and the remaining 76kers and BHers stop getting statuettes. No need to exacerbate the problem by forcefully yanking cash out of the economy.

Then no need for sales tax for normal purchases. Jagex can introduce a tax for bigger bulk purchases to encourage p2p trades. Remember, without price limits the GE becomes even more convenient. And as you pointed out, this will then give purpose to all the good semaritans listed in your first paragraph.

 

More restrictive on the amounts you can buy per hour is also a very bad idea. It keeps the item from fluctuating in price when there is such a limited movement of those items around the market. Essentially freezing the supply of items, like Battlestaves, would lock them at one price. Price fixing has been shown across the world to be generally bad for the economy. Making it impossible to trade enough quantity of an item to make it update in price would have this exact effect. As gp value fluctuates, item prices should be able to fluctuate with it, not remain fixed at a certain point because it is impossible to buy any of them.

With hundreds of thousands trading on six slots, we won't see a bottleneck. Without price limits, prices will find their player evaluated price very quickly. Plus, the prices listed will still just be suggestions, so if they're a little off it doesn't matter.

 

Making people pay higher taxes to buy more of an item would be another incredibly bad idea. I mean, why don't you just suggest microtransactions while you are at it? The tighter something is controlled, the more stifled it becomes. This leads to a stagnating economy and society. If you want an example, go look at Germany just after WWII.

 

Creating extra useless rules just because you can create them is never a good idea. Making players jump through hoops and wade through seas of red tape in order to do anything just removes every reason to play this game.

Nothing is being controlled. You have FREE TRADE. If you don't like the GE then you DON'T USE IT! With restricted trade, yes, what I suggested would be very bad. However, now, Jagex needs to return power to the positive merchant class. You know, the guys that collected items in small amounts to sell in bigger amounts. With the GE, such a class of people just won't exist and I think RS will be more the poorer for it.

 

 

tl;dr

 

You're entire theory is just a blatently bad idea.

I kindly disagree[/hide]

Why would Jagex wish to encourage people to make player to player trades over using the GE? There is no logical reason to do this.

 

Also, any sort of taxes in a computer game just make it less fun. Giving up your hard earned gp just because Jagex decided they want to remove it from the game is not fun. Taxes only work when there is an actual reason for them. This means, in real life, governments need money to run. They need money to

establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

Just because governments need taxes doesn't mean I enjoy April 15th any more then anyone else.

 

Jagex does not need gp to run. They are the ones that created gp, they programmed it into the game, they can create as much for themselves as they want. Therefore, all forms of unnecessary taxes detract from the fun of the game and would be seen as Jagex going on a power trip.

 

Also, what are you doing when you use the GE? Are you not trading with other players? Maybe your GE is like a magical store, with RNG's that determine how quickly and how many of each item you get. As for me, when I use the GE I trade my cash for someone elses items. Every time I use the GE, I trade with another player.

 

As you so kindly pointed out:

Nothing is being controlled. You have FREE TRADE.

 

You say this, and in the same breath say Jagex should control buy limits on items. Basically, you are saying Jagex should institute free trade over here, and then you walk 10 steps and now you only have harshly restricted trade.

 

Jagex can introduce a tax for bigger bulk purchases to encourage p2p trades.

 

But wait, taxes are a form of control, and last I checked, they cost additional money onto purchases. But I thought you said:

 

Nothing is being controlled. You have FREE TRADE.

 

You have FREE TRADE.

 

FREE TRADE.

 

FREE

[Pinata]

I think they should be removed, or else well see mega manipulation. MARK MY WORDS

[SwreeTak]

There should be no reason for ANY limits on free trade. So the system can be manipulated by players with tons of money. and?

 

If I had 50bil why shouldnt I be allowed to buy 100million lobsters if I wanted

Cause obviously you don't need 100million lobsters. Duh. We want to make sure that people only receive what they absolutely need, not any extra. Cause this totally worked for the Pilgrims and all. <_<

 

/scarcasm

 

Sry, couldn't resist. I actually agree with you.

 

This made me laugh :P.

And I totally agree. I think that Jagex will remove the buying and selling quantities and make players able to buy/sell as many items as they want to. I don't think everyone agrees with me on this, but to me, it can't be called "Free Trade" unless the 4-hour limit is removed.

[NukeMarine]

Nothing is being controlled. You have FREE TRADE.

You say this, and in the same breath say Jagex should control buy limits on items. Basically, you are saying Jagex should institute free trade over here, and then you walk 10 steps and now you only have harshly restricted trade.

Jagex can introduce a tax for bigger bulk purchases to encourage p2p trades.

But wait, taxes are a form of control, and last I checked, they cost additional money onto purchases. But I thought you said:

Nothing is being controlled. You have FREE TRADE.

Yeah, why would Jagex make something useful inconvenient? They've never done that. Why, the abyss is used and no one gets skulled and loses their prayer. Because if they made the abyss inconvenient, nobody would use it. And of course, trees don't die. If they died, and Jagex required a payment to ensure they don't die without checking on them, nobody would farm that way.

 

Basically, spare me the economic meltdown doom and gloom if Jagex put a tax or restrictions on one form of trade (GE) when there's a less convenient but more profitable form of trade (p2p). Anyone that's played this game and/or has experience in the outside world knows people will spend more for convenience. That's the reason major highways have tolls, and still get traffic. Cause people hate stopping at tons of red lights.

 

Once free trade is re established, the GE moves from essential to very convenient. I can see Jagex putting buying restrictions on such convenience (taxes, bulk limits, auto ending of buying requests, etc)

[pulli23]

@pulli23

 

I said look at Germany after just after WWII. 1945ish. Their economy was garbage. Luckily, they got themselves a new government, and it did better then the last one.

 

Remember, the state of Germany's economy in 1945 was not affected by how they did in the future. The state of Germany's economy was affected by what they did in the past, namely the 30s and early 40s.

 

You might be interested in reading The Road to Serfdom by F. A. Hayek. It deals extensively with this very concept.

 

Uhm you really think the biggest problem with germany at 1945 was the restriction on the economy? - Really, you know, they maybe lost a war, and were occupied by the sovjet union, england the us and france?

Besides hitler did bring some quite good things to germanies economy (ie: he made sure the average person was able to afford a car etc).

 

After the second world war, germany created their own version of "free market": the "rheinland model", as opposed to the "anglo-saxon model / neo-liberalism". only english source I coudl find. This model actually advocates goverment restrictions, to prevent a few rich people of harming mass of more poor people. (Which in reality are things like public healthcare, high public education, goverment makes sure unemployed have still a perspective etc). In runescape this is in effect by not allowing certain (small) groups of people to not buy out certain items!

[PereGrin]

@pulli23

 

I said look at Germany after just after WWII. 1945ish. Their economy was garbage. Luckily, they got themselves a new government, and it did better then the last one.

 

Remember, the state of Germany's economy in 1945 was not affected by how they did in the future. The state of Germany's economy was affected by what they did in the past, namely the 30s and early 40s.

 

You might be interested in reading The Road to Serfdom by F. A. Hayek. It deals extensively with this very concept.

 

Uhm you really think the biggest problem with germany at 1945 was the restriction on the economy? - Really, you know, they maybe lost a war, and were occupied by the sovjet union, england the us and france?

Besides hitler did bring some quite good things to germanies economy (ie: he made sure the average person was able to afford a car etc).

 

After the second world war, germany created their own version of "free market": the "rheinland model", as opposed to the "anglo-saxon model / neo-liberalism". only english source I coudl find. This model actually advocates goverment restrictions, to prevent a few rich people of harming mass of more poor people. (Which in reality are things like public healthcare, high public education, goverment makes sure unemployed have still a perspective etc). In runescape this is in effect by not allowing certain (small) groups of people to not buy out certain items!

I assume by saying Germany, you are refering to the Germany located west of the Iron Curtain. West Germany enjoyed considerably more economic freedom then East Germany did, and as time progressed, East Germany became steadily more dependent on loans and cash infusions from West Germany and the western world.

 

Also, I believe I said

The state of Germany's economy was affected by what they did in the past, namely the 30s and early 40s.

That pretty much includes every bad economic decision they made. If starting and losing WWII was not a bad economic decision, then I don't know what is.

 

Hitler did take over Germany's government and got them out of massive massive inflation cause by their excessive printing of money to get themselves out of debt after losing WWI. Then he invaded Poland and attempted Genocide against the Jews. He royally messed up Germany by starting and losing WWII. But hey, at least they had dirt cheap cars while their country went down the drain, right? /scarcasm

 

So tell me, was Hitler's coming to power ultimately a good thing or a bad thing? Did Germany end up better off for having him as a leader, or worse? How about the rest of the world? Here, let me tell you the answers. Hitler's rise to power was bad for Germany. He did far more things bad for Germany than he did good for them (losing WWII, Holocaust, 44 years of Germany being split in 2, Bankrupt). And attempted Genocide is never good for anybody.

 

Notice that I never said governments should not have a say in the market. What is bad is when governments have the ONLY say in the market. By looking at the characteristics of the German government pre-WWII, you will notice that they continued to try to control production/trade more and more. East Germany also continued to do this, and the result was the same. You say that certain small groups of people should not be in control of that much of the market. Well what happens when the government is that small group of people?

 

This is my point. Jagex already has a large amount of market control. They control the GE. Do you remember Climbing Boots and Amulets of Accuracy? If Jagex were to continue adding more restrictions onto what will continue to be the primary method of trade between players, they risk tipping the balance too far. Already the market has been shown to not be functioning correctly. You remember the prices party hats reached? Blue was around ~5bil street, Cracker was around ~32bil street. These prices were never able to equalize due to GE update restrictions and price floors on junk.

 

I do not think you entirely understand my argument. I draw heavily from Hayek, and in order for me to continue this, you would need to read this book first. I was unable to find a PDF of the book, probably due to copyright laws, or I would link you straight too it.

[Dexek]

I hope they stay so more people partake in player to player trading.

[Pinata]

I hope they stay so more people partake in player to player trading.

I think that would be a bad idea with free trade, because a manipulation clan would have a lot easier time buying out the GE, then a high end merchers can create "fake" street prices saying battle staves are 20kea or something crazy like that. But who knows could be better w/ caps on some items.

[pulli23]

Uhm the problem for germany BEFORE the second world war, are again, not most influented by their own goverment.

 

What happened was they lost the first world war, and as the winners can claim any bargain, france stated that germany would always have to pay a very large portion of the national income to france as "repaiment".. - Also was germany not allowed to create any industrie that might be used for war... This magnified the global repression that went through the world during 1920s.. (And ultimatelly leaded to the climate where extremism can flourish).

But really germany before and after the second world war are completely uncomparable, after the world war germany was a "new" country, and started completely from ground up again.

 

But back to runescape: I never said I was in favour of what happened to climbing boots (though it was a necessary move at that time: runescape saw that a part of the game wasn't working -climbing boots were too cheap (from shop) for their use-, however increasing that price would give a very big oppurtunity for RWT, as the price on the ge woudln't update immediatelly (there are a lot in the economy already) - So they had to manually adjust the price.

I hope to see them doing these retro-active balancing updates more often (ie, updating the korasi - spec so it is slightly weaker - and making sure all (equal tier) weapons are equal in use, just depending on the position & fighting style) as I think that would increase the variety of runescape and make it in the end more fun & less boring.

 

As for the trade volume restrictions: I think they are a good thing, the normal player is not too often hit by those restrictions.. - And only the cases where players are really hurt should be changed (ie battlestaves should be at least 1k, if not 10k per 4 hours). But this requires a case-by-case look at items.. Just removing the trade restrictions is a bad thing.

Price ceilings & floors I've always really disliked though, and that I am indeed happy to see removed from the game. - But the topic is about trade volume restrictions specifically.

[PereGrin]

Uhm the problem for germany BEFORE the second world war, are again, not most influented by their own goverment.

 

What happened was they lost the first world war, and as the winners can claim any bargain, france stated that germany would always have to pay a very large portion of the national income to france as "repaiment".. - Also was germany not allowed to create any industrie that might be used for war... This magnified the global repression that went through the world during 1920s.. (And ultimatelly leaded to the climate where extremism can flourish).

But really germany before and after the second world war are completely uncomparable, after the world war germany was a "new" country, and started completely from ground up again.

 

But back to runescape: I never said I was in favour of what happened to climbing boots (though it was a necessary move at that time: runescape saw that a part of the game wasn't working -climbing boots were too cheap (from shop) for their use-, however increasing that price would give a very big oppurtunity for RWT, as the price on the ge woudln't update immediatelly (there are a lot in the economy already) - So they had to manually adjust the price.

I hope to see them doing these retro-active balancing updates more often (ie, updating the korasi - spec so it is slightly weaker - and making sure all (equal tier) weapons are equal in use, just depending on the position & fighting style) as I think that would increase the variety of runescape and make it in the end more fun & less boring.

 

As for the trade volume restrictions: I think they are a good thing, the normal player is not too often hit by those restrictions.. - And only the cases where players are really hurt should be changed (ie battlestaves should be at least 1k, if not 10k per 4 hours). But this requires a case-by-case look at items.. Just removing the trade restrictions is a bad thing.

Price ceilings & floors I've always really disliked though, and that I am indeed happy to see removed from the game. - But the topic is about trade volume restrictions specifically.

 

You missed the point I was making about Germany. Your entire paragraph about Germany basically agrees with what I said. The state Germany was in in 1945 was due to decisions they made in the 1930s. If they hadn't chosen to invade Poland in 1939, they would not have started WWII, which means the would not have lost WWII. In 1945, West Germany got a new government and started doing much better. That is what I said. They got to build from the ground up because their government (namely Hitler) ran them headlong into the ground. I am not comparing Germany before WWII and after WWII. I was giving you the reason that post-war Germany had such a bad economy.

 

Look up the type of government Germany had during the 30s and 40-45. See how they ran the country. Now, look at the state the country was in in 1945. Every decision that put Germany where it was in 1945 was made by Germany's government from ~1930-45. Seriously, go read Hayek's book. He does a much better job explaining it.

 

You also forget what I was responding to.

 

-Make the GE more restrictive on the BULK AMOUNT of things you can buy

 

-First, they'll be more restrictive on amounts one can buy (ex: only 10 per hour).

 

-All sales have a small tax to remove gp from the game (such a tax would be passed on by a merchanter to a bulk buyer) in preparation for the coming of the merchant class.

 

-People who want to buy more than the limits (by passing a merchanter) will have to pay a higher tax (1% more for every 10 extra per four hours for example).

 

Notice the insane trade restrictions he is proposing? Idk about you, but 10 battlestaves every 4 hours seems rather harsh. Insanely so. So I drew the parallel between this and Germany's government during the 30s and early 40s. Everything that Germany was in 1945, Germany's government from the 30s and early 40s was directly responsible. This means that Germany's government from ~1930-45 was to blame for Germany in 1945. It was their fault. It wasn't the fault of the 20s. It wasn't because they had a boom in the 70s. It wasn't because they changed government styles after 1945 and started doing better.

 

It was because of the government Germany had from ~1930-45. This government was 100% responsible for the terrible economy that Germany had in 1945.

 

If you were to go look up what the government of Germany was doing from 1930-45 (i.e. read The Road to Serfdom by F. A. Hayek), you will see what I am talking about.

 

I don't know why you think climbing boots were a good idea. I mean, I could care less what they are worth on the GE. But giving them an alch value of nearly 4x what Dragon Boots alch for was plain stupidity. Boots made from Goat Wool and leather should not be alching for 45k. Dragon Boots alch for 12k, to give a frame of reference.

[Blyaunte]

On Topic +1:

 

I have posted this same comment on other threads and received no extensive discussion about this issue and, for the sake of avoiding creating an additional, somewhat duplicate, thread, does "free trade" ALSO mean no more limits on store bought goods?

 

Will we be able to, once again, buy from an infinite number of Runes at Magic stores, or bronze knives?

[Aslan]

Doubt it.It's not called infinite stock readded.

[pulli23]

You missed the point I was making about Germany. Your entire paragraph about Germany basically agrees with what I said. The state Germany was in in 1945 was due to decisions they made in the 1930s. If they hadn't chosen to invade Poland in 1939, they would not have started WWII, which means the would not have lost WWII. In 1945, West Germany got a new government and started doing much better. That is what I said. They got to build from the ground up because their government (namely Hitler) ran them headlong into the ground. I am not comparing Germany before WWII and after WWII. I was giving you the reason that post-war Germany had such a bad economy.

 

Look up the type of government Germany had during the 30s and 40-45. See how they ran the country. Now, look at the state the country was in in 1945. Every decision that put Germany where it was in 1945 was made by Germany's government from ~1930-45. Seriously, go read Hayek's book. He does a much better job explaining it.

First of all I'm not going to believe what someone else said when I can ask people at first hand:

 

-The reason for germanies poor economy was NOT the goverment making decisions, it was the lack thereof: the goverment was not able to respond to the worldwide crisis as it had to pay france (and to lesser extend the uk) a big proportion of their wealth.

And it was NOT the economic decisions that made germany "loose" the second world war this is avery silly statement and I honestly can't see how you even try to explain a war with economy. Invading "poland" had nothing (or very little) to do with economy.

 

 

 

I don't know why you think climbing boots were a good idea. I mean, I could care less what they are worth on the GE. But giving them an alch value of nearly 4x what Dragon Boots alch for was plain stupidity. Boots made from Goat Wool and leather should not be alching for 45k. Dragon Boots alch for 12k, to give a frame of reference.

Still they give a similar advantage as addamant boots, yet are much more easily (on personal case, where you get it yourself) to get. This is game design "wrong", addamant boots are supposed to be a "reward" for slaying. - Yet this "reward" was lower than something which didn't take any efford/time (you could just walk there and buy a few). This ment that climbing boots were almost always preferable over addamant boots. To balance this, climbing boots should have another difficulty layer around it: increasing the cost really made them an item of similar difficulty to get.

[Blyaunte]

Doubt it.It's not called infinite stock readded.

 

But it's "free trade" ...

[PereGrin]

First of all I'm not going to believe what someone else said when I can ask people at first hand:

 

-The reason for germanies poor economy was NOT the goverment making decisions, it was the lack thereof: the goverment was not able to respond to the worldwide crisis as it had to pay france (and to lesser extend the uk) a big proportion of their wealth.

And it was NOT the economic decisions that made germany "loose" the second world war this is avery silly statement and I honestly can't see how you even try to explain a war with economy. Invading "poland" had nothing (or very little) to do with economy.

So you will not read Hayek's book, even though he is a well respected commentator of his time, and his book is still very popular today? You would rather ignore some of the smartest people of our time just because you would rather troll?

 

Also, Yes, Poland. As in this place.

http://www.cs.montana.edu/angryk/imgs/Pl_map.gif

You know, the place that Germany invaded on September 1st, 1939. The decision that the German government (Hitler) made to invade Poland and thus start WWII. Germany didn't have to invade Poland, they chose to. BreakingInvading Poland on September 1st 1989 started WWII. If Germany hadn't started WWII, then they obviously would not have lost it.

 

I never said they lost cause of economic reasons. Germany lost because they pulled the USA into the war from the West, and Russia in from the East. Then they overextended their lines, Russian winter hit, and America kicked them out of France. You are the one that just said

...the economic decisions that made germany "loose" the second world war...

You will find nothing like that in anywhere in my posts. I have constantly said the war was one of the very bad decisions that Germany made. Stop putting words into my mouth please.

 

You may post whatever you want. It has become apparent that you do not know very much at all about this period of history, and are just making up things that you think sound good. You need to stop claiming I am saying things I am not and read my posts to actually figure out what I truly am saying. I read your entire post through at least 6 times before replying.

 

Back to OT lolz, sorry guys history is fun

 

I read somewhere that they were going to institute old shops where they items where all items were visible to everyone. Not sure if this means infinite stock though. I hope it does. Or at least it better mean a lot of stock. Otherwise, it might be impossible to buy anything worthwhile from the shops. (e.g. bronze knives, some runes, eye of newts, vials, that food shop in the warrior guild). At least the General Store will actually be a general store again though.

[Fools_Taco]

There should be no reason for ANY limits on free trade. So the system can be manipulated by players with tons of money. and?

 

If I had 50bil why shouldnt I be allowed to buy 100million lobsters if I wanted

 

 

Thats like one guy buying all the condoms in north America and then charging every guy who might get lucky 25$ for one.

 

He had 50b cashola and the means to do it, should he be allowed?

 

Especially these days with the wacko republicans trying to make aborting federal business.

 

Lulz.

[CharlieBrown]

There should be no reason for ANY limits on free trade. So the system can be manipulated by players with tons of money. and?

 

If I had 50bil why shouldnt I be allowed to buy 100million lobsters if I wanted

 

 

Thats like one guy buying all the condoms in north America and then charging every guy who might get lucky 25$ for one.

 

He had 50b cashola and the means to do it, should he be allowed?

 

Especially these days with the wacko republicans trying to make aborting federal business.

 

Lulz.

 

Coathanger.

[Bladewing]

like you can buy all the condoms. factories will make more

 

the only items that need buy limits are items that cannot increase in supply - discontinueds, and 2/4h is fine for those