sees_all1 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592767877/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0VP4J3G9PXAN2ABJGWX7&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801072603/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=06J7V21WWNZD4S1PA1K1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846http://www.amazon.com/Loser-Letters-Mary-Eberstadt/dp/1586174312/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295977865&sr=1-1http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Against-God-Atheism-Faith/dp/0310320313/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295977879&sr=1-1 And of course, this is interesting: http://pewforum.org/Belief-in-God/Can-Civilization-Survive-Without-God-.aspx WTF? Where am I supposed to look? I'm not reading all of that. 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myweponsg00d Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Wh....wha....what....WHAT THE HELL? Y_guy I think you seem to be very confused about something. Atheists do not share "a view" on sex. Atheism is not a system of morals or anything like that. It is not an IMMORAL system. It is not a MORAL system. It doesn't tell you that everything is okay to do, it doesn't tell you that anything is bad to do. It has no comment. Atheism is not a religion or a belief system. Atheists are united by only one thing: the assertion that there is no need to believe in a god since there is no evidence to suggest that one exists. Thats it. Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with moral views on sex, killing, stealing, or anything like that. Other than the fact that we aren't going to buy into theories that aren't backed by evidence, atheists have nothing in common. One athesit may support gay marriage, one may not. One atheist may support premarital sex, one may not. What we call "atheism" has absolutely no comment whatsoever on anything besides the nature of physical phenomenon. All moral and philosophical questions have absolutely nothing to do with atheism. Also...all of the links you posted have been written by people who have the same erroneous conception of what an atheist is. I have plenty of morals that most people would say are "conservative" and I am even a registered republican. One's moral beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with how you think the universe came to be. One's morality or lack of morality has nothing to do with atheism. There have been some terrible atheists in the past, lets pick one...say...Stalin? Stalin was an atheist, and he did many things that were bad. However...it isn't BECAUSE of atheism. Atheism is simply a statement of how you feel the origins of life came to be. Its kind of like if we said "Stalin had a moustache, moustaches are evil!" One really has nothing to do with the other. Need assistance in any of these skills? PM me in game, my private chat is always ON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obfuscator Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Wh....wha....what....WHAT THE HELL? Y_guy I think you seem to be very confused about something. Atheists do not share "a view" on sex. Atheism is not a system of morals or anything like that. It is not an IMMORAL system. It is not a MORAL system. It doesn't tell you that everything is okay to do, it doesn't tell you that anything is bad to do. It has no comment. Atheism is not a religion or a belief system. Atheists are united by only one thing: the assertion that there is no need to believe in a god since there is no evidence to suggest that one exists. Thats it. Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with moral views on sex, killing, stealing, or anything like that. Other than the fact that we aren't going to buy into theories that aren't backed by evidence, atheists have nothing in common. One athesit may support gay marriage, one may not. One atheist may support premarital sex, one may not. What we call "atheism" has absolutely no comment whatsoever on anything besides the nature of physical phenomenon. All moral and philosophical questions have absolutely nothing to do with atheism. Also...all of the links you posted have been written by people who have the same erroneous conception of what an atheist is. I have plenty of morals that most people would say are "conservative" and I am even a registered republican. One's moral beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with how you think the universe came to be. One's morality or lack of morality has nothing to do with atheism. There have been some terrible atheists in the past, lets pick one...say...Stalin? Stalin was an atheist, and he did many things that were bad. However...it isn't BECAUSE of atheism. Atheism is simply a statement of how you feel the origins of life came to be. Its kind of like if we said "Stalin had a moustache, moustaches are evil!" One really has nothing to do with the other. Exactly - and religious people do many things that are bad, and it isn't because of religion. (however much many atheists may wish to claim that). I've no preconceptions about atheism as a system of belief - of course the individual atheist may have different morals relative to sex, but it is impossible to deny that many prominent atheists rail against the teachings of religion on sex, and it becomes a draw to those beliefs. It is also further obvious that many people consider themselves "free" once they stop following a religion, and thus doing many things is now permissible. Let me ask you a personal question. Do you beleive sex before marriage is acceptable? Do you believe contraception and abortion are acceptable? Do you believe gay marriage is acceptable? I suppose you probably do. In fact, I can't recall ever meeting or hearing of an atheist who didn't(although I'm sure there are exceptions, and as a matter of fact Christopher Hitchens has flip-flopped over the abortion issue for quite some time). At their core atheism or theism are very simple beliefs. However, they quickly dictate how you chose to live your life and as such often affect every facet of it. Atheism has absolutely everything to do with moral views, not nothing. "It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygimantas Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I think morals are inherit through our nature. I don't think it is something you have to learn in anyway. 99 Hunter - November 1st, 200899 Cooking -July 22nd, 200999 Firemaking - July 29th, 201099 Fletching - December 30th, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbows Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Exactly - and religious people do many things that are bad, and it isn't because of religion. (however much many atheists may wish to claim that). 'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.' -Blaise Pascal Not necessarily, but their justifications are harder to reason with. Compare religious & political extremism: it's generally easier to find common ground with the latter. I've no preconceptions about atheism as a system of belief - of course the individual atheist may have different morals relative to sex, but it is impossible to deny that many prominent atheists rail against the teachings of religion on sex, and it becomes a draw to those beliefs. I'd point out that different religions have different views on moral conduct. If you believe the foundational reason of people's beliefs (divine revelation, for instance) is unproven or false, you'll naturally strive to correct it - for instance, I might believe that "Christian Charity" is a good thing, but the reasons behind it are simply reciprocity - if I create an environment in which helping others is the expected thing to do, it safeguards me against future misfortune. In essence, you believe the right things for the wrong reasons. It is also further obvious that many people consider themselves "free" once they stop following a religion, and thus doing many things is now permissible.That's not limited to religion; also with societal pressure, parental expectation etc. Let me ask you a personal question. Do you beleive sex before marriage is acceptable? Do you believe contraception and abortion are acceptable? Do you believe gay marriage is acceptable? I suppose you probably do. In fact, I can't recall ever meeting or hearing of an atheist who didn't(although I'm sure there are exceptions, and as a matter of fact Christopher Hitchens has flip-flopped over the abortion issue for quite some time). Yes to all of the above. ;) At their core atheism or theism are very simple beliefs. However, they quickly dictate how you chose to live your life and as such often affect every facet of it. Atheism has absolutely everything to do with moral views, not nothing. Only in the sense that atheists don't derive their moral framework from religious observance (with the possible exception of some forms of Bhuddism/Janism/Hinduism/Judaism..?) but from elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myweponsg00d Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Exactly - and religious people do many things that are bad, and it isn't because of religion. (however much many atheists may wish to claim that). I've no preconceptions about atheism as a system of belief - of course the individual atheist may have different morals relative to sex, but it is impossible to deny that many prominent atheists rail against the teachings of religion on sex, and it becomes a draw to those beliefs. Regardless of whether or not any atheist has ever said anything pro sex or against sex, it is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant. There is no figurehead for atheism. There are no moral teachings of atheism. It is also further obvious that many people consider themselves "free" once they stop following a religion, and thus doing many things is now permissible. If someone who loses their religion now does different things...I wouldn't have considered those things to actually be a part of the person's "morality" to begin with. Morality is what you think is right and wrong, not what you are only doing out of fear. If someone threatens to kill me unless I have sex with my mother, that doesn't mean incest is now part of my morality. It means I did it because I thought I had to. If someone is abstaining from drinking alcohol only because they are trying to "follow the rules" then I wouldn't even consider that person to be acting morally. Your morals are your beliefs. Let me ask you a personal question. Do you beleive sex before marriage is acceptable? Do you believe contraception and abortion are acceptable? Do you believe gay marriage is acceptable? I suppose you probably do. In fact, I can't recall ever meeting or hearing of an atheist who didn't(although I'm sure there are exceptions, and as a matter of fact Christopher Hitchens has flip-flopped over the abortion issue for quite some time).I believe in sex before marriage. I believe in use of contraceptives. I think abortion is absolutely disgusting. I am split on gay marriage. I think gays should be able to live together and have all the same benefits that a married couple would have, but I don't think it makes any sense to have them participate in a "holy" marriage or whatever. To be honest I don't care enough to really even be knowledgable about the subject. But thats okay...cause I really don't want to open that can of worms in here... I don't think that any of these ideas of mine have anything to do with the existence or non existence of a diety. At their core atheism or theism are very simple beliefs. However, they quickly dictate how you chose to live your life and as such often affect every facet of it. Atheism has absolutely everything to do with moral views, not nothing. I totally disagree. Just because I don't think a man in the sky is watching over me, that doesn't have any influence on my behavior. If you read any important works of philosophy such as Leviathan, there are many logical reasons for man to be moral without having anything to do with the great security camera in the sky. A person's morality largely stems from the lessons that he or she has learned during life, from parents, friends, relatives, and aquaintences. It is a lot more complicated than "Well, if its the word of God, I guess I'll do it" This isn't necessarily morality. I know of a few Christians who live according to "the rules" but don't actually agree with them. To me, this isn't actually morality. They arent doing what they believe is right; theyre doing what they're told to do just because they're afraid they'll go to hell. Need assistance in any of these skills? PM me in game, my private chat is always ON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obfuscator Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Regardless of whether or not any atheist has ever said anything pro sex or against sex, it is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant. There is no figurehead for atheism. There are no moral teachings of atheism. It's not at all irrelevant because stepping away from the teachings of religion in this area (and towards atheism) leads to what I mentioned. It doesn't matter if it's not necessarily the intent of atheism, it's still a consequence. If someone who loses their religion now does different things...I wouldn't have considered those things to actually be a part of the person's "morality" to begin with. Morality is what you think is right and wrong, not what you are only doing out of fear. If someone threatens to kill me unless I have sex with my mother, that doesn't mean incest is now part of my morality. It means I did it because I thought I had to. If someone is abstaining from drinking alcohol only because they are trying to "follow the rules" then I wouldn't even consider that person to be acting morally. Your morals are your beliefs. Have you ever considered the possibility that people actually agree with the morality imposed by religion? I believe in sex before marriage. I believe in use of contraceptives. I think abortion is absolutely disgusting. I am split on gay marriage. I think gays should be able to live together and have all the same benefits that a married couple would have, but I don't think it makes any sense to have them participate in a "holy" marriage or whatever. To be honest I don't care enough to really even be knowledgable about the subject. But thats okay...cause I really don't want to open that can of worms in here... I don't think that any of these ideas of mine have anything to do with the existence or non existence of a diety. But were you to be religious, you wouldn't support those things, because the set of morals you adhere to would be more strictly defined. Such is my point. I totally disagree. Just because I don't think a man in the sky is watching over me, that doesn't have any influence on my behavior. If you read any important works of philosophy such as Leviathan, there are many logical reasons for man to be moral without having anything to do with the great security camera in the sky. A person's morality largely stems from the lessons that he or she has learned during life, from parents, friends, relatives, and aquaintences. It is a lot more complicated than "Well, if its the word of God, I guess I'll do it" This isn't necessarily morality. I know of a few Christians who live according to "the rules" but don't actually agree with them. To me, this isn't actually morality. They arent doing what they believe is right; theyre doing what they're told to do just because they're afraid they'll go to hell. A person's morality can stem from many things, as you said. But I do wonder, why bother having morals at all if this life is really all there is? I have morals because I believe I'm on earth for a reason. It doesn't mean I'd drop everything at will, but I'd certainly question why I would put others ahead of myself and not just take what I wanted if this life is really all there is. You see, society tells us to constantly put others ahead of ourselves (sometimes) as it's good for society. But if you don't believe in life after this, why should you, or would you possibly want to detract from your "happiness" so that others can be happy? "It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygimantas Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 A person's morality can stem from many things, as you said. But I do wonder, why bother having morals at all if this life is really all there is? I have morals because I believe I'm on earth for a reason. It doesn't mean I'd drop everything at will, but I'd certainly question why I would put others ahead of myself and not just take what I wanted if this life is really all there is. You see, society tells us to constantly put others ahead of ourselves (sometimes) as it's good for society. But if you don't believe in life after this, why should you, or would you possibly want to detract from your "happiness" so that others can be happy?Our morals do not come from teachings. Our morals are naturally instilled with us when our DNA is put together. Most morals derive from the instinct to survive, either for the population or just for oneself. 99 Hunter - November 1st, 200899 Cooking -July 22nd, 200999 Firemaking - July 29th, 201099 Fletching - December 30th, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Morals are genetically inherited? Lolwat | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygimantas Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Morals are genetically inherited? LolwatWell essentially, but their based on our survival instincts. Ex: Killing is morally wrong for most people because we have empathy which developed through evolution because it helps us survive as a group. 99 Hunter - November 1st, 200899 Cooking -July 22nd, 200999 Firemaking - July 29th, 201099 Fletching - December 30th, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Latios Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 @Y_Guy: Atheism has no doctrine; you have failed. IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 CombatBandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees_all1 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Morals are genetically inherited? LolwatWell essentially, but their based on our survival instincts. Ex: Killing is morally wrong for most people because we have empathy which developed through evolution because it helps us survive as a group.You'd expect to find that in other species as well, but most of the time males of the species will not hesitate to injure other males. I'd expect them to kill each other if they had the tools to do it, or if the losing party didn't retreat. 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Latios Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Morals are genetically inherited? LolwatWell essentially, but their based on our survival instincts. Ex: Killing is morally wrong for most people because we have empathy which developed through evolution because it helps us survive as a group.You'd expect to find that in other species as well, but most of the time males of the species will not hesitate to injure other males. I'd expect them to kill each other if they had the tools to do it, or if the losing party didn't retreat.Yeah, but animals aren't sapient. Humans are. IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 CombatBandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees_all1 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yeah, but animals aren't sapient. Humans are.Pretty sure that science is debunking this one - humans aren't the only intelligent species. Prove to me that we're special. 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Latios Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yeah, but animals aren't sapient. Humans are.Pretty sure that science is debunking this one - humans aren't the only intelligent species. Prove to me that we're special.We've sent another of our species to the moon.There, happy? I don't think you will be, for some reason. IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 CombatBandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees_all1 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yeah, but animals aren't sapient. Humans are.Pretty sure that science is debunking this one - humans aren't the only intelligent species. Prove to me that we're special. We can think symbolically. I dont know enough about animal intellegence to know if any species may have that ability too but as far as I know that ability is what separates us from other animals.Rhesus Monkeys can do math. Yeah, but animals aren't sapient. Humans are.Pretty sure that science is debunking this one - humans aren't the only intelligent species. Prove to me that we're special.We've sent another of our species to the moon.There, happy? I don't think you will be, for some reason.Right, so then humans up until 1960 weren't special at all. 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees_all1 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 So the questions that lead us to religion make us special? :wink: 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Latios Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yeah, but animals aren't sapient. Humans are.Pretty sure that science is debunking this one - humans aren't the only intelligent species. Prove to me that we're special.We've sent another of our species to the moon.There, happy? I don't think you will be, for some reason.Right, so then humans up until 1960 weren't special at all.You missed the point by about, hmm, five miles? So the questions that lead us to religion make us special? :wink:That would contribute, yes. But then realising that religion is silly and there is no supernatural force guiding our world would make us special among the other intelligent species. IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 CombatBandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbows Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Some Monkeys show empathy, implying at the very least a sense of self and other. :smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I'm sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. Forget trying to doubt whether a god has endowed basic morals into us, first prove that biology has. Just because characteristics are passed from generation to generation does not mean that they are necessarily the result of genetics. There are well-established methods of determining whether a certain trait is inheritable or not, and to the best of my knowledge plus a quick Google Scholar search, I don't know of any concordance study that links the likelihood of someone being a murderer to their DNA. It couldn't possibly be that being raised by abusive parents makes a child abusive. No, this would be far too much common sense. Clearly a child turning out to be abusive is the result of out-of-our-control genetics. :rolleyes: | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygimantas Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 It couldn't possibly be that being raised by abusive parents makes a child abusive. No, this would be far too much common sense. Clearly a child turning out to be abusive is the result of out-of-our-control genetics. :rolleyes:Both may have an effect. Here: http://www.newsweek.com/2008/09/12/is-morality-natural.html# 99 Hunter - November 1st, 200899 Cooking -July 22nd, 200999 Firemaking - July 29th, 201099 Fletching - December 30th, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obfuscator Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 A person's morality can stem from many things, as you said. But I do wonder, why bother having morals at all if this life is really all there is? I have morals because I believe I'm on earth for a reason. It doesn't mean I'd drop everything at will, but I'd certainly question why I would put others ahead of myself and not just take what I wanted if this life is really all there is. You see, society tells us to constantly put others ahead of ourselves (sometimes) as it's good for society. But if you don't believe in life after this, why should you, or would you possibly want to detract from your "happiness" so that others can be happy?Our morals do not come from teachings. Our morals are naturally instilled with us when our DNA is put together. Most morals derive from the instinct to survive, either for the population or just for oneself. Morals are not genetic, that's the biggest garbage I've heard today. If morals were genetic, we'd be predestined to either be moral or immoral people. Genetics can influence behavioral tendencies but nothing more. @ring world: I do agree that morality is often relative...yet some societies see nothing wrong with murder, or cannibalism, for instance? Does that make it morally acceptable, just because that society doesn't feel it's shameful to do so? @Y_Guy: Atheism has no doctrine; you have failed. Congratulations, you've successfully demonstrated how not to debate. I've done you the good service of making valid points and actually attempting to prove them. Clearly you aren't interested in reciprocating, so I think we can assume you have no desire to actually debate on the topic. And they say the religious are closed-minded. "It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Latios Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 @Y_Guy: Atheism has no doctrine; you have failed. Congratulations, you've successfully demonstrated how not to debate. I've done you the good service of making valid points and actually attempting to prove them. Clearly you aren't interested in reciprocating, so I think we can assume you have no desire to actually debate on the topic. And they say the religious are closed-minded.Lol, stop trying to sway from the point.I asked you to show me a flaw in atheism, and you haven't provided a single one. IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 CombatBandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obfuscator Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 @Y_Guy: Atheism has no doctrine; you have failed. Congratulations, you've successfully demonstrated how not to debate. I've done you the good service of making valid points and actually attempting to prove them. Clearly you aren't interested in reciprocating, so I think we can assume you have no desire to actually debate on the topic. And they say the religious are closed-minded.Lol, stop trying to sway from the point.I asked you to show me a flaw in atheism, and you haven't provided a single one.How on earth am I swaying from the point? Certain people like wep and rainbows actually bothered to reply to my post and point out their objections. All you're doing is making blanket statements with no attempt to actually debate. "It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Latios Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 @Y_Guy: Atheism has no doctrine; you have failed. Congratulations, you've successfully demonstrated how not to debate. I've done you the good service of making valid points and actually attempting to prove them. Clearly you aren't interested in reciprocating, so I think we can assume you have no desire to actually debate on the topic. And they say the religious are closed-minded.Lol, stop trying to sway from the point.I asked you to show me a flaw in atheism, and you haven't provided a single one.How on earth am I swaying from the point? Certain people like wep and rainbows actually bothered to reply to my post and point out their objections. All you're doing is making blanket statements with no attempt to actually debate.Where are the many flaws with atheism that you claim there are? Come on, you claim there are many. Let's see them. IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 CombatBandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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