05-Jul-2011 - Salt in the Wound

[Stewie_Griffen]

5.) Some fools rigged bots to harvest names off the highscores and vote for it even if you were the type inclined to vote no. The petition was a poll itself anyway. Yes, it was an advertising blitz.

 

7.) That was a list about recent things that have caused trouble. I didn't put anything in it that bluntly said F2P-exclusive troubles only. Sometimes I wonder if Blauynte or however you spell her name was right about Jagex jumping the shark on some update.

 

And of course, I'm disagreeing with you so I'm trolling. Classic.

Your earlier posts already riled up Kimberly going on about Big Macs.

 

5) They did, but they weren't a majority by any means. Far more people voted yes, with or without bots.

 

7) Your post was themed with Jagex "turning up the heat" on encouraging F2Pers to get membership. I kind of assumed you were replying to my statement that one update doesn't make a trend by providing other updates you thought proved your point. That may be my fault for assuming the context but the statements about Jagex "turning up the heart" on F2P don't really help.

 

So? If someone gets offended by something as inoffensive as a Big Mac then I'm not going to make an effort to cater my posts to their insecurities. That's not my fault. If I was setting out to get a reaction I wouldn't have posted something about Big Macs. If you're offended by that you'll be offended by anything.

 

Also, apparently one mention is now "going on about" something. Good to know. Stop going on about Jagex jumping the shark, it's offending me!

[Deathknell]

People end up debating all the little points with this stuff. It's akin to a doctor treating the symptoms instead of curing the disease. The crux of the whole matter is Jagex and what appear to be the inconsistencies in their policies.

[Stewie_Griffen]

People end up debating all the little points with this stuff. It's akin to a doctor treating the symptoms instead of curing the disease. The crux of the whole matter is Jagex and what appear to be the inconsistencies in their policies.

 

What are these inconsistencies? Besides the one ad that represents their entire policy history, of course.

[BioIce]

5) They did, but they weren't a majority by any means. Far more people voted yes, with or without bots.

If you mean those who voted no weren't the majority, then true. It was irresponsible either way to have done the petition in the manner they chose. The way they did it assured an overwhelming yes - with the caveat they could handle bots.

 

7) Your post was themed with Jagex "turning up the heat" on encouraging F2Pers to get membership.

Post #166?

 

"These are the incidents that have caused a row in the recent past and will continue to cause a row if updates similar in nature are released by Jagex." If you mean to say it has an F2P bias, then sure. But it's not F2P exclusive.

 

Stop going on about Jagex jumping the shark, it's offending me!

Tell Jagex to stop pumping out updates with bad quality assurance.

 

EDIT:

So? If someone gets offended by something as inoffensive as a Big Mac then I'm not going to make an effort to cater my posts to their insecurities. That's not my fault.

 

Learn to use better analogies that have little chance of personal impact or flame material.

[Deathknell]

People end up debating all the little points with this stuff. It's akin to a doctor treating the symptoms instead of curing the disease. The crux of the whole matter is Jagex and what appear to be the inconsistencies in their policies.

 

What are these inconsistencies? Besides the one ad that represents their entire policy history, of course.

 

I'm not getting involved in it. One side thinks they're flip flopping and the other side doesn't. Both sides then start arguing over each smaller point.

 

-edit- And yes Bio, QA has been doing a rather poor job of it lately IMO.

[Stewie_Griffen]

5) They did, but they weren't a majority by any means. Far more people voted yes, with or without bots.

If you mean those who voted no weren't the majority, then true. It was irresponsible either way to have done the petition in the manner they chose. The way they did it assured an overwhelming yes - with the caveat they could handle bots.

 

7) Your post was themed with Jagex "turning up the heat" on encouraging F2Pers to get membership.

Post #166?

 

"These are the incidents that have caused a row in the recent past and will continue to cause a row if updates similar in nature are released by Jagex." If you mean to say it has an F2P bias, then sure. But it's not F2P exclusive.

 

Stop going on about Jagex jumping the shark, it's offending me!

Tell Jagex to stop pumping out updates with bad quality assurance.

 

5) An overwhelming yes and a majority yes are still a majority. If the community can't handle a Yes/No/Indifferent poll, then that's not Jagex's fault for attempting to hold their players to the same standard of integrity that they expect of Jagex. If the poll was rigged, it's not Jagex's fault. The petition itself was essentially discarded when the poll came out. The poll came out (with a log in, so no highscores look up) and the supporters still won.

 

7) If you wanted to pick updates that caused conflicts, why just ones that have affected F2P the most? It's contradictory and led me to think you were talking about F2P only.

 

Sure, they can stop pumping out updates with bad QA as soon as everyone stops begging for a weekly update. They're screwed either way so they go with the one that gives people their content. Considering how maybe only a dozen bugs have been absolutely (and notoriously) gamebreaking and widespread, I think I can get over a few stretched pixels here and a guy with a Fight Caves skull there. Either way, I was only sarcastically mocking how apparently mentioning something once is "going on about it".

 

 

People end up debating all the little points with this stuff. It's akin to a doctor treating the symptoms instead of curing the disease. The crux of the whole matter is Jagex and what appear to be the inconsistencies in their policies.

 

What are these inconsistencies? Besides the one ad that represents their entire policy history, of course.

 

I'm not getting involved in it. One side thinks they're flip flopping and the other side doesn't. Both sides then start arguing over each smaller point.

 

Fair enough.

[RU_Insane]

I'm surprised there are still people here who don't recognize the difference between using an ad hominem and stating facts about an opponent's position. The 'ad hominem' fallacy is the attempt to connect a perceived negative characteristic of the opponent to the truth of a claim. In fact, the only ones I've seen doing this -- to not name any names -- are the same people who tell others to stop using ad hominems. The unintentional hypocrisy really is amusing. I can only assume it's unintentional because of the opponent's ignorance as to what an ad hominem really is. Stewie has been level-headed this entire time and has been examining the matter objectively and eloquently. The same unfortunately cannot be said for his opponents.

 

That said, I agree with Stewie that the pop-up screens mentioned don't precipitate a trend. But I disagree with their nature. Thus, I disagree with Griffin that these new level-up screens are simply revisions of the old ones. In the past, level up screens would mention that members could do this or wear that upon reaching a certain level. However, in contrast to the pop-up screens mentioned in this thread, they seemed to serve more as quaint 'Did you knows' rather than 'Get this for $6 a month'. It's no different from leveling to five defense and the game informs you that you can wear steel. The idea to note here is that if players are intent on getting membership, they obviously know enough about what they want to be persuaded to get that membership. A passing mention of a feature that happens to be members' is not advertising in that commercial sense. I must persuade the potential customer to trade with me for service or a good, and I do this by highlighting the benefits that can be enjoyed by purchasing this good or service.

 

A passing mention of a feature -- such as certain weapons -- isn't advertising because there's no persuasion on the game's behalf for that person to pay. As a consequence, any incidental intention on purchasing membership for a perceived benefit is an individual matter and not reflective of Jagex policy because there's no deliberate element of persuasion involved on Jagex's behalf. How can you accuse Jagex of intrusive advertising if nothing was advertised? No benefits mentioned, no invite to an exchange of money for these items. In contrast to the old level up messages, the new ones are advertisements because benefits -- persuasive elements -- are mentioned and there's even a button that says 'sign me up now', the 'sign me up' referring to membership -- which involved monetary exchange for services which include these elements. The nature of these level-up screens has changed in that they went from being simply 'DYK' type messages to 'DYK + buy membership in exchange for this really cool item available to members only that you can use at your level!'. So in conclusion, it's not simply a revision of the old level-up screens -- otherwise those specific elements would not have been necessary to include. On top of that, I think the actual level-up screens appear along-side these advertisements, so it seems redundant to even call these ones the same idea. The detail doesn't actually matter though. Just something I like to nitpick at.

 

That aside, I agree that the advertising in question isn't intrusive, and that there's no real trend that can be seen from this example. You cleared those questions up very nicely.

[Deathknell]

Stewie, the QA department did pretty good with weekly updates for a good, long while. Maybe the updates are too complex. I personally think the script of the game has gotten very, very convoluted in the past year or two. Jagex seriously needs to bring their game back to code and do some real core work.

[Stewie_Griffen]

Stewie, the QA department did pretty good with weekly updates for a good, long while. Maybe the updates are too complex. I personally think the script of the game has gotten very, very convoluted in the past year or two. Jagex seriously needs to bring their game back to code and do some real core work.

 

I'd have to disagree. Few gamebreaking glitches come to mind immediately that are on the level of the Falador massacre. The fact that someone isn't rampaging around killing someone with every update or duplicating rares these days is a testament to the strength of Jagex's QA team rather than it's weakness. The occasional glitch occurs that prevents people from enjoying new content, but it's usually fixed on the day of the update.

 

Name a few gamebreaking glitches in the past two years. There aren't many (if any) on the level of older glitches. It's a miracle that Jagex can get an update out most weeks. I can't think of many other developers who can do the same for an MMORPG.

 

I'm surprised there are still people here who don't recognize the difference between using an ad hominem and stating facts about an opponent's position. The 'ad hominem' fallacy is the attempt to connect a perceived negative characteristic of the opponent to the truth of a claim. In fact, the only ones I've seen doing this -- to not name any names -- are the same people who tell others to stop using ad hominems. The unintentional hypocrisy really is amusing. I can only assume it's unintentional because of the opponent's ignorance as to what an ad hominem really is. Stewie has been level-headed this entire time and has been examining the matter objectively and eloquently. The same unfortunately cannot be said for his opponents.

 

That said, I agree with Stewie that the pop-up screens mentioned don't precipitate a trend. But I disagree with their nature. Thus, I disagree with Griffin that these new level-up screens are simply revisions of the old ones. In the past, level up screens would mention that members could do this or wear that upon reaching a certain level. However, in contrast to the pop-up screens mentioned in this thread, they seemed to serve more as quaint 'Did you knows' rather than 'Get this for $6 a month'. It's no different from leveling to five defense and the game informs you that you can wear steel. The idea to note here is that if players are intent on getting membership, they obviously know enough about what they want to be persuaded to get that membership. A passing mention of a feature that happens to be members' is not advertising in that commercial sense. I must persuade the potential customer to trade with me for service or a good, and I do this by highlighting the benefits that can be enjoyed by purchasing this good or service.

 

A passing mention of a feature -- such as certain weapons -- isn't advertising because there's no persuasion on the game's behalf for that person to pay. As a consequence, any incidental intention on purchasing membership for a perceived benefit is an individual matter and not reflective of Jagex policy because there's no deliberate element of persuasion involved on Jagex's behalf. How can you accuse Jagex of intrusive advertising if nothing was advertised? No benefits mentioned, no invite to an exchange of money for these items. In contrast to the old level up messages, the new ones are advertisements because benefits -- persuasive elements -- are mentioned and there's even a button that says 'sign me up now', the 'sign me up' referring to membership -- which involved monetary exchange for services which include these elements. The nature of these level-up screens has changed in that they went from being simply 'DYK' type messages to 'DYK + buy membership in exchange for this really cool item available to members only that you can use at your level!'. So in conclusion, it's not simply a revision of the old level-up screens -- otherwise those specific elements would not have been necessary to include. On top of that, I think the actual level-up screens appear along-side these advertisements, so it seems redundant to even call these ones the same idea.

 

That aside, I agree that the advertising in question isn't intrusive, and that there's no real trend that can be seen from this example.

 

That's very true. I'll admit I jumped the gun by saying that this was no worse than the old level up messages. Perhaps a better way for me to say it would be that it's no more intrusive; that you can just exit the box and be done with it.

[BioIce]

Gamebreakers?

 

Mu glitch, where some altcode letter crashed people out.

 

Runecrafting glitch in dungeoneering.

 

Noclip bug abuse.

 

Penguins glitch giving players a lot of points.

 

Dungeoneering experience glitch in all its forms. Still exists, I think.

 

EDIT: Oh yes, there was also the climbing boots one. Not much of a bug but more along the lines of how they handled it by brushing off how people didn't hoard much of it.

[Stewie_Griffen]

Gamebreakers?

 

Mu glitch, where some altcode letter crashed people out.

 

Runecrafting glitch in dungeoneering.

 

Noclip bug abuse.

 

Penguins glitch giving players a lot of points.

 

Dungeoneering experience glitch in all its forms. Still exists, I think.

 

I almost forgot the altcode glitch. That's the only one (in my opinion) that is on the same level as the Falador Massacre or the rare duplication. Penguin glitch isn't as big of a deal to me because several of the offenders were banned so it balances out the disparity between those who abused the bug and those who didn't.

 

Could you elaborate on the two dungeoneering glitches? I don't really view something that only affects dungeoneering as gamebreaking because you can avoid it by not going into Daemonheim. I may be wrong though since I'll admit dungeoneering isn't my area of expertise.

[BioIce]

Let's say you got 500k experience back in the day. Someone who abuses the glitch could get something along the lines of 1m or 2m a day, 2m being an extreme I'm not altogether sure of.

 

There was also one that's been mentioned in F2P allowing people to complete a floor in under a minute for good exp.

[Cheefoo]

Games have never had glitches before. Ever. This is a travesty, Jagex. You should be ashamed.

[RU_Insane]

That's very true. I'll admit I jumped the gun by saying that this was no worse than the old level up messages. Perhaps a better way for me to say it would be that it's no more intrusive; that you can just exit the box and be done with it.

 

I agree. It's honestly such a small matter. Really? Does it affect how you play the game? Did you know member's existed beforehand, y'know? If you want membership, get membership for the benefits you want. Who buys membership only for a hatchet that any P2P can use? Really? That's doesn't offer an advantage over anyone. It's convenient, yeah. But who's going to be persuaded by that? So if you're going to accuse Jagex of losing integrity, well. I agree with you there. There'd be more intrusive and pressuring ways to get someone to purchase membership than just some box on a screen that can be closed in a second advertising a hatchet no less that any member can use. Yeah! You really lost your integrity there, Jagex. That's such a trend setter! That's so intrusive and downright scandalous! >.< Of course as you and I know, the opposition has no real evidence of this happening, so they have to use slippery slope fallacies and assume trends are already happening when there's only one insignificant example to choose from. xD

[BioIce]

Games have never had glitches before. Ever. This is a travesty, Jagex. You should be ashamed.

 

That's beside the point. This is what he said.

 

Few gamebreaking glitches come to mind immediately that are on the level of the Falador massacre...Name a few gamebreaking glitches in the past two years. There aren't many (if any) on the level of older glitches.

[Stewie_Griffen]

Let's say you got 500k experience back in the day. Someone who abuses the glitch could get something along the lines of 1m or 2m a day, 2m being an extreme I'm not altogether sure of.

 

There was also one that's been mentioned in F2P allowing people to complete a floor in under a minute for good exp.

 

So the dungeoneering experience glitch still exists? I vaguely remember the Runecrafting glitch but it was fixed quickly enough.

 

I don't see that as being devastating either though. While it may be unfair to those who aren't abusing the glitch, they aren't losing items or being forcibly logged out. Any damage done is just relative.

[Deathknell]

Falador Massacre was part of a huge update of cutting edge, for Jagex at least, coding for POH's. I was also talking about the plethora of bugs that comes with every update it feels like, not the gamebreakers.

[Stewie_Griffen]

Falador Massacre was part of a huge update of cutting edge, for Jagex at least, coding for POH's. I was also talking about the plethora of bugs that comes with every update it feels like, not the gamebreakers.

 

If the bug isn't gamebreaking, why worry about it? Every update has the potential for a Falador Massacre-style bug. If it involves messing with the code, anything can happen. It's a testament to the QA team that the biggest bug you have to worry about most of the time is graphical or the occasional quest-related glitch that is only slightly bothersome and usually fixed on the first day.

 

I'm not saying Jagex's QA team is incredible but by no means is it a failure.

[RU_Insane]

Falador Massacre was part of a huge update of cutting edge, for Jagex at least, coding for POH's. I was also talking about the plethora of bugs that comes with every update it feels like, not the gamebreakers.

 

We can't count on Jagex to have all their updates ironed out. They try their best to put their priorities first, and I'm sure those priorities have been followed through consistently. Out of the game-breaking bugs we've had in the last two years, how many more could have arised from those recent updates? It's not unreasonable to assume that Jagex's QA has likely stalled far more troublesome bugs from happening compared to ones that slipped by. Bugs are still going to slip by, for sure, but be thankful that the vast majority of the bugs that you'll have to worry about, like Stewie said, are mainly graphical or quest related glitches that can be easily fixed upon notice. The QA team we have isn't perfect, but they aren't failures.

[BioIce]

Neat. We're all talking about QA and now the game crashes. Go figure.

[Deathknell]

Falador Massacre was part of a huge update of cutting edge, for Jagex at least, coding for POH's. I was also talking about the plethora of bugs that comes with every update it feels like, not the gamebreakers.

 

If the bug isn't gamebreaking, why worry about it? Every update has the potential for a Falador Massacre-style bug. If it involves messing with the code, anything can happen. It's a testament to the QA team that the biggest bug you have to worry about most of the time is graphical or the occasional quest-related glitch that is only slightly bothersome and usually fixed on the first day.

 

I'm not saying Jagex's QA team is incredible but by no means is it a failure.

 

because it's the small, annoying little glitches that will turn a player off. Ones that are too small to dicusss or talk about. Little things that can ruin a gameplay experience.

[Stewie_Griffen]

Falador Massacre was part of a huge update of cutting edge, for Jagex at least, coding for POH's. I was also talking about the plethora of bugs that comes with every update it feels like, not the gamebreakers.

 

If the bug isn't gamebreaking, why worry about it? Every update has the potential for a Falador Massacre-style bug. If it involves messing with the code, anything can happen. It's a testament to the QA team that the biggest bug you have to worry about most of the time is graphical or the occasional quest-related glitch that is only slightly bothersome and usually fixed on the first day.

 

I'm not saying Jagex's QA team is incredible but by no means is it a failure.

 

because it's the small, annoying little glitches that will turn a player off. Ones that are too small to dicusss or talk about. Little things that can ruin a gameplay experience.

 

If someone cancels their membership because of a small graphical glitch or a glitch that is fixed in a day with few consequences, then they're too fickle for Jagex to realistically expect to retain them as a customer.

 

 

Neat. We're all talking about QA and now the game crashes. Go figure.

 

Haha, yeah. Funny timing. It's not necessarily the fault of QA though. It could be any number of issues not pertaining to a recent update.

[HunterDexter]

Yes, it's the things that QA should catch, the obvious things and stuff, by just TRYING the content.

Look at the chompy hats update, you couldn't even get any hats at Rantz, it would just say that you inventory was full.

The sagas: you could just teleport out with masses of runes.

The past quest: the knights in the 4th room didn't spawn for me, so I had to redo almost the whole quest. And not to forget: the invalid space orders for the NPCs.

Smuggling the red skull out of the Fight Pits.

The ceremonial sword (design 5) not able to be gotten from artisans workshop.

The crash that's now going on.

 

Just a few I can think about within a minute, which all came the last 3-4 months.

[BioIce]

It's the little things added up all together that can break your impression of the game over time.

[RU_Insane]

Falador Massacre was part of a huge update of cutting edge, for Jagex at least, coding for POH's. I was also talking about the plethora of bugs that comes with every update it feels like, not the gamebreakers.

 

If the bug isn't gamebreaking, why worry about it? Every update has the potential for a Falador Massacre-style bug. If it involves messing with the code, anything can happen. It's a testament to the QA team that the biggest bug you have to worry about most of the time is graphical or the occasional quest-related glitch that is only slightly bothersome and usually fixed on the first day.

 

I'm not saying Jagex's QA team is incredible but by no means is it a failure.

 

because it's the small, annoying little glitches that will turn a player off. Ones that are too small to dicusss or talk about. Little things that can ruin a gameplay experience.

 

That seems to be a matter on a personal level rather than an issue with the game itself. Like I said, you can't expect QA to be perfect. Think of the more disruptive glitches that've occurred compared to the mild, occasional graphical glitch or teleportation flux. You can't please everyone. Is it an issue? No, because there's nothing wrong with the game that actually needs priority fixing.

 

It's the little things added up all together that can break your impression of the game over time.

 

 

That doesn't actually suggest that there's anything wrong with the game. Impressions are personal and subjective. Game-play issues are objective and affect everyone. What bothers you may entertain someone else, or they could be neutral. What 'little things' are you talking about specifically? The way you're wording it, I just naturally see them as non-issues that at the end, boil down to personal preference as to whether it's bothersome or not.