05-Jul-2011 - Salt in the Wound

[Carl]

 

That was never the policy to begin with. People have been saying one thing and doing another for millenia. I can't believe you haven't got the memo yet.

 

You seem to have missed when MMG removed certain intrusive advertising in the F2P game - or how a skill like agility lost its use in F2P. Not to mention how F2P could once solve P2P-based puzzle rooms in Daemonheim. Though I think they still can with one particular room.

 

It's a bad thing for a games company to be hypocritical.

 

We had this very same argument the other day in another thread... This was never set in stone, and noted somewhere in a Policy that they MUST abide by. It was something they decided to change two years ago, just in an effort to remove the P2p features which were in F2p, it was never said they would work to ensure no P2p stuff was ever seen in F2p... Where you people get off with your criticising of a company who's main aim is to earn money is just unreal. And for F2pers to rage over this is absolutely laughable... No-one is asking you to play this game.

[Sy_Accursed]

I'd hardly call two pop up ads that u see once briefly the same as the obtrusive advertising we had before.

[Mirror]

I'd hardly call two pop up ads that u see once briefly the same as the obtrusive advertising we had before.

But I wouldn't call the gnomecopters obtrusive. I'd take gnomecopters over pop ups any day because, well heck, it had inside jokes in the rides. :thumbsup:

[Sy_Accursed]

I'd hardly call two pop up ads that u see once briefly the same as the obtrusive advertising we had before.

But I wouldn't call the gnomecopters obtrusive. I'd take gnomecopters over pop ups any day because, well heck, it had inside jokes in the rides. :thumbsup:

 

I would given they were an entire piece of content built as an advert

[Kimberly]

 

That was never the policy to begin with. People have been saying one thing and doing another for millenia. I can't believe you haven't got the memo yet.

 

You seem to have missed when MMG removed certain intrusive advertising in the F2P game - or how a skill like agility lost its use in F2P. Not to mention how F2P could once solve P2P-based puzzle rooms in Daemonheim. Though I think they still can with one particular room.

 

It's a bad thing for a games company to be hypocritical.

 

We had this very same argument the other day in another thread... This was never set in stone, and noted somewhere in a Policy that they MUST abide by. It was something they decided to change two years ago, just in an effort to remove the P2p features which were in F2p, it was never said they would work to ensure no P2p stuff was ever seen in F2p... Where you people get off with your criticising of a company who's main aim is to earn money is just unreal. And for F2pers to rage over this is absolutely laughable... No-one is asking you to play this game.

 

Ah I see. The big loophole here is that they can say "We never REALLY meant it, we just removed those things 'cause we're REALLY SUPER AWESOME! And now we're putting them back because we're even more REALLY SUPER AWESOME! :D" And then belittling people who are likely paying customers who have a right to voice their opinion because, in your eyes, Jagex can do whatever they please and you'd say yes sir I'd like another?

 

If you find my comparisons to your attitude ridiculous and extreme, I find yours exactly the same. You're not even attempting to see the rational arguments against such things. It's 'absolutely laughable' to take your own phrase. C'mon now, at least try.

[Naraku893]

Man that is pathetic Jarblex.

[BioIce]

The ends (making money) justify the means (intrusive advertising)? In politics and in role-playing, sure. To inspire loyalty in potential customers, absolutely not. Jagex appears to be counting on the collective short-term memory of their players and the ignorance of newcomers about this subject to bring it back.

 

And before anyone says no company operates like this, off the top of my head CDProjekt Red and From Software come to mind. I'd also include CCP but after the fracas over their pay-to-win microtransaction plan they've sunk.

[Stewie_Griffen]

 

That was never the policy to begin with. People have been saying one thing and doing another for millenia. I can't believe you haven't got the memo yet.

 

You seem to have missed when MMG removed certain intrusive advertising in the F2P game - or how a skill like agility lost its use in F2P. Not to mention how F2P could once solve P2P-based puzzle rooms in Daemonheim. Though I think they still can with one particular room.

 

It's a bad thing for a games company to be hypocritical.

 

We had this very same argument the other day in another thread... This was never set in stone, and noted somewhere in a Policy that they MUST abide by. It was something they decided to change two years ago, just in an effort to remove the P2p features which were in F2p, it was never said they would work to ensure no P2p stuff was ever seen in F2p... Where you people get off with your criticising of a company who's main aim is to earn money is just unreal. And for F2pers to rage over this is absolutely laughable... No-one is asking you to play this game.

 

Ah I see. The big loophole here is that they can say "We never REALLY meant it, we just removed those things 'cause we're REALLY SUPER AWESOME! And now we're putting them back because we're even more REALLY SUPER AWESOME! :D" And then belittling people who are likely paying customers who have a right to voice their opinion because, in your eyes, Jagex can do whatever they please and you'd say yes sir I'd like another?

 

If you find my comparisons to your attitude ridiculous and extreme, I find yours exactly the same. You're not even attempting to see the rational arguments against such things. It's 'absolutely laughable' to take your own phrase. C'mon now, at least try.

 

This is a viewpoint I really don't see the logic behind. Before one of the interface updates, when you leveled up you got a pop up saying "You can now wield/do: something!". When that level was something like 60 defense or 70 attack, there would be "Members can now wield Dragon armor/Abyssal Whips". No one complained.

 

With this update, you get 10 attack, mining, or woodcutting and you get this ad. And everyone's pissed.

 

I genuinely wonder if the people who post on these forums demanding that Jagex bow to their every demand ask for free health insurance with their Big Macs or demand that the grocery store they bought bananas from figure out a way to stop them from rotting or they'd never see your six dollars again. The customer does come first but never have I seen the sheer level of entitlement that manifests itself in Runescape's customers. You're paying six dollars a month. Xbox Live costs about the same (a little more actually), and I have yet to see an Xbox Live customer throw down their controller and say "Forget all the fun I've had with these games so far, I see an ad so Microsoft is now the devil". Hell, World of Warcraft. They're paying more per month, get fewer updates, and I guarantee you they whine less then you all.

 

Do you know why? If something happens that they don't like in their service, they quit. For instance, Verizon Wireless is getting rid of their unlimited data plans. Will I go to a Verizon forum and whine endlessly about how greedy they are as a company and write them letters saying they'll never see my $30 a month again? No. I'd suck it up or switch to Sprint. That's what normal people do. Your individual complaints are a drop in the water to Jagex and whining over something as petty as an ad (an ad that's basicaly a stylized version of the old level up windows) won't accomplish anything.

 

As a customer, you do have certain rights. You have the right to be treated fairly and perhaps a better topic for your misguided angst would be their customer support services. When someone can put song lyrics into their ban appeal and be successful, there's an issue. That being said, being a customer does not make you a card carrying member of the development team and give you a spot on the board of directors.

 

It's $6 a month. If you're getting outraged over an update that will only affect you at three level ups at levels almost all of you got ages ago, get over it. Jagex is not trampling on your consumer loyalty. Do you know why? Because the average person on this forum is 80+ in several skills and therefore shouldn't care about what happens at 10 woodcutting. You're picking a fight over an issue that doesn't affect you and all of your attempts to rationalize it are slippery slope mentalities that claim Jagex will be implementing the "Abyssal Vinewhip sponsored by Coca-Cola" in a matter of weeks.

 

I wasn't having fun with the game anymore. I didn't fault the developers; they gave me a source of entertainment for three years or so. I didn't believe the game was heading downhill. It just wasn't fun to me. Did I crusade on Tip.it or the RSOF, demanding that Jagex cave to my demands or else they wouldn't see my six dollars again? Did I say that the game was in decline because the updates didn't pertain to me anymore? No. I cancelled my membership, and moved on with my life. I don't see why it's so difficult for others to do the same.

[Pirkka]

After reading the comments, I did the quest today and was happily surprised after all the negative comments posted here. The quest was awesome, the humour was great and the story was nicely ended. Probably the best update of the month, unless citadels turn out to be awesome.

[Kimberly]

Yes because everyone who is concerned with the game's direction is an idiot as you've implied. Your argument, while eloquent, is dripping with the same false superiority you claim your opposition has and as such, it's extremely hard to take you seriously. The verizon metaphor is a poor apples - to - oranges comparison. There are no comparable services to Runescape that is 10$ a month and browser based, let alone an MMO. Your Xbox comparison is equally poor...do you see "BUY WINDOWS 7!" when you're going through the introduction screen of Left 4 Dead 2? No. As a business they know when to push their product and when not to. This is the pitfall that RuneScape seems to repeatedly fall in. And WoW, again another apples - to - oranges comparison. They pay substantially more a month and get a higher quality of updates...but ironically because the company made poor choices their subscriptions are declining drastically and people are frequently complaining about the direction the company has taken yet continue to pay.

 

Now if I can manage to wade through the majority of the "You're all stupid whiners" in your post and get to the real heart of it, I think you're trying to ask why people who are upset with the way the company is going don't just quit to make a point. Because that's absolutely [developmentally delayed]ed. The company has not reached that point where anyone sees this as a hopeless cause. Jagex, as much as I give them their lumps, do a great job at listening to their customers. People were upset with how the loyalty programme worked, they gave a discount for the first couple of weeks so people could try out more of the expensive auras. End result: decent compromise. People complained about the lack of clan support. End result: clan support. Do I need to go on? I hope not. Saying that someone upset about this turn of events should just quit is insulting to that person's intelligence and honestly, to their loyalty to the company...and I'm starting to suspect that the ones who are upset about this, voicing their concerns, and waiting to see what happens without jumping ship are far more loyal and concerned about the well being of the game we're all here to love and discuss than you are.

 

You don't see people going, "WE PAY WE SAY LOL!" I hardly see anyone here acting irrationally. What I see are some concerned and loyal individuals upset that the game they love is changing in ways that have proved damaging to the integrity of a business, and they don't want that to happen. They have a right to voice their concerns. Jagex has a right to listen or ignore them as they choose. But more than likely, because they are a shrewd bunch of businessmen, they will come up with an acceptable compromise. If you say that a trend hasn't been established, you're being naive. If you're saying the trend doesn't lead to full game infection, you've got a fair point. And that's why we're voicing our concerns--so they know that's not what their core base wants and they don't do it. Because if it does happen, then you will see the people quitting as you've said.

 

The only one being childish here is you.

[Sly_Wizard]

People will complain about anything. This is hardly anything to get upset about.

[Stewie_Griffen]

Yes because everyone who is concerned with the game's direction is an idiot as you've implied. Your argument, while eloquent, is dripping with the same false superiority you claim your opposition has and as such, it's extremely hard to take you seriously. The verizon metaphor is a poor apples - to - oranges comparison. There are no comparable services to Runescape that is 10$ a month and browser based, let alone an MMO. Your Xbox comparison is equally poor...do you see "BUY WINDOWS 7!" when you're going through the introduction screen of Left 4 Dead 2? No. As a business they know when to push their product and when not to. This is the pitfall that RuneScape seems to repeatedly fall in. And WoW, again another apples - to - oranges comparison. They pay substantially more a month and get a higher quality of updates...but ironically because the company made poor choices their subscriptions are declining drastically and people are frequently complaining about the direction the company has taken yet continue to pay.

 

Now if I can manage to wade through the majority of the "You're all stupid whiners" in your post and get to the real heart of it, I think you're trying to ask why people who are upset with the way the company is going don't just quit to make a point. Because that's absolutely [developmentally delayed]ed. The company has not reached that point where anyone sees this as a hopeless cause. Jagex, as much as I give them their lumps, do a great job at listening to their customers. People were upset with how the loyalty programme worked, they gave a discount for the first couple of weeks so people could try out more of the expensive auras. End result: decent compromise. People complained about the lack of clan support. End result: clan support. Do I need to go on? I hope not. Saying that someone upset about this turn of events should just quit is insulting to that person's intelligence and honestly, to their loyalty to the company...and I'm starting to suspect that the ones who are upset about this, voicing their concerns, and waiting to see what happens without jumping ship are far more loyal and concerned about the well being of the game we're all here to love and discuss than you are.

 

You don't see people going, "WE PAY WE SAY LOL!" I hardly see anyone here acting irrationally. What I see are some concerned and loyal individuals upset that the game they love is changing in ways that have proved damaging to the integrity of a business, and they don't want that to happen. They have a right to voice their concerns. Jagex has a right to listen or ignore them as they choose. But more than likely, because they are a shrewd bunch of businessmen, they will come up with an acceptable compromise. If you say that a trend hasn't been established, you're being naive. If you're saying the trend doesn't lead to full game infection, you've got a fair point. And that's why we're voicing our concerns--so they know that's not what their core base wants and they don't do it. Because if it does happen, then you will see the people quitting as you've said.

 

The only one being childish here is you.

 

I never implied anyone was an idiot. I just said their viewpoint isn't very logical. I don't see the benefit of using ad hominems, however much you think "you're being childish for disagreeing" is a valid close to your argument.

 

I also never attempted to imply any sense of false superiority. Perhaps your own sense of superiority perceived my disagreement as a challenge to your ego, which is why your reply seems so irritated. Like I said, I don't see the benefit of using ad hominems. I don't know the people behind the arguments so I won't judge them.

 

All of those comparisons are valid. You're paying a comparatively small amount of money in other venues, and getting a comparatively small amount of benefits. I was pointing out how in so many other communities, people are paying far more than Runescape players and complaining less. Hence, the sense of entitlement. That's the aspect I was comparing. I wasn't implying that Verizon Wireless is a browser based MMORPG. Runescape's unique in that regard. Runescape is hardly unique in terms of paying a monthly fee to receive benefits and updates.

 

Microsoft is adding interactive Kinect ads to the Xbox Live dashboard. And apparently Jagex doesn't know when to stop pushing their product? This is literally the first "switch to members" ad I've seen in months. Then again, you seem to be of the "slippery slope" school of thought. Just so you know, the "Abyssal Vinewhip sponsored by Coca-Cola" hasn't been released yet.

 

By the way, I said Xbox Live. You know, the dashboard? You won't see an ad in the intro screen of Left 4 Dead 2 because it's not on the dashboard.

 

I had plenty of valid points beyond "you're all stupid whiners" and I don't recall calling anyone stupid. Then again, you will read what you want to out of my post.

 

I'm not telling people to quit to make a point. I'm telling people that if they aren't happy with a service, they shouldn't use it. Like I said, $6 a month does not grant you a spot on the Jagex board of directors. Quitting to make a point is the kind of petty garbage that I see a lot on this site. Some maxed out players "retires" and then posts in recent update threads saying "well, Jagex still sucks. I'm not buying members this month either". How does that help Jagex with their game? The definition of feedback on this site is "everything Jagex does sucks" and then an elaboration that essentially just demands that every update be for high level players or dungeoneering. To quote The Big Lebowski, "the world does not start or stop at your convenience".

 

They're more loyal to the company? If they were giving valid feedback, yeah. If they eloquently voiced the desires of a majority of the community in a way that was constructive, then sure.

 

It's easy to try to be objective and dismiss the people who are upset about this, and it's done each and every time these tiny updates are made. But how long does this list of tiny tweaks have to get in order for those on the other side of the argument understand their opposite's concerns? It seems like those against it simply think people are being selfish or overreacting, yet so far it seems that those concerned about this trend are starting to be proven right.

 

How is this helpful to Jagex? I could understand if there was a widespread community outcry about a pop up ad at level 10 in 3 skills, but there isn't. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. You want to prove that you're "more loyal" to Jagex? Provide feedback over an actual issue. Talk about bots. Talk about customer support. You know, actual widespread issues that affect players above level 10 strength.

 

Like I said, you're clearly refusing to be objective here so I don't see any point in discussing what you may or may not be seeing in the community. Your idea that the people complaining about a pop up are bold crusaders is laughable. Crusaders have something to fight for. You're whining about a pop up and fantasizing about it being part of a "trend" just to give yourself two legs to stand on. How is this a trend? Please point out some more members advertising that has been released recently. I'm curious. I'd hate to be naive for not recognizing your fabricated trend.

 

You're the core? That's cute. You aren't the core. You're a high level player on a fansite whining about a pop up ad. The core of Jagex's customer base is currently playing the game without issue. How do I know? There's 224,000 players online now (maybe 150,000 that aren't bots), 110 people online on this site and 679 players on the RSOF. If there was an issue that affected "the core" of the customer base, then that core would be out protesting. They aren't. You aren't reflecting the demands of the core of Runescape players because they are playing the game and not caring about ads for low level free to play players.

 

You're voicing your concerns because you have a sense of entitlement. Helpful critics don't take a small update and derive a trend from it when no other update of the kind exists yet. Maybe the fact that Jagex is willing to be so in touch with their community leads to this sense of entitlement. They obviously don't take very many suggestions but they provide details on their development. They have a real world festival for their game. They play their own game and communicate with their players. Because of all that, maybe you feel that they will respond to your every whim.

 

I'd appreciate it if you could construct your next reply without insulting me for disagreeing with you. The only claim I've made against you as an individual is that you're incredibly biased and refusing to look at this argument in any sort of objective manner. Yet somehow, I'm childish and naive because I'm not complaining about a pop up ad for low level free players.

[BioIce]

Promoting an apathetic "doesn't affect me and it shouldn't affect you so why should we care" attitude is as bad as the bot syndrome in the long term for Jagex.

[Kimberly]

There are no ad hominems here. If anyone's throwing them around, it's you. Your comparisons and derogatory tones imply that you think less of people who are upset about this chain of events. Aka stupid, lesser intelligence, an idiot. To recap your own post:

 

[hide]

I genuinely wonder if the people who post on these forums demanding that Jagex bow to their every demand ask for free health insurance with their Big Macs

Your individual complaints are a drop in the water to Jagex and whining over something as petty as an ad (an ad that's basicaly a stylized version of the old level up windows) won't accomplish anything.

Did I crusade on Tip.it or the RSOF, demanding that Jagex cave to my demands or else they wouldn't see my six dollars again? Did I say that the game was in decline because the updates didn't pertain to me anymore? No. I cancelled my membership, and moved on with my life. I don't see why it's so difficult for others to do the same.

[/hide]

 

I disagree with your argument because it makes no sense and seems to only stem from the fact that you think everyone's a whiner. You seem to feel that because you lost your interest in the game and quit, you are therefore superior and everyone should react your way when in fact the people upset about this are the people with strong interests in the game. Thus, the false sense of superiority. "Why aren't they just quitting instead of whining, like I did? They should just get over it, they're making stupid decisions." If you don't know the people behind the arguments and you won't judge them, then why make broad characterizations ground in misinterpretations? Surely someone so interested in logic sees how just illogical that is.

 

Verizon, WoW, Xbox are double if not quadruple the amount paid out in RS for the benefits. And while I still think it's a poor comparison, I see the nature of your point though. While I can agree we are being well compensated, that's not the point being argued. If it were simply a matter of compensation, we would be encouraging these updates, not denouncing them! After all, aren't we, the paying members, the ones who would reap the benefits of them? No, that is not the point. And saying that other communities don't complain equally across the board...well, I don't know where the fault lies there. It's either a lack of experience with other MMOs/large game communities or human nature. Ever looked at the Minecraft community, for example? XD As for the Kinect issue, again, it is not present in the element of gameplay (when you play L4D or Dead Space or Bioshock), and thus a poor comparison. Xbox Live, as a service, is not the dashboard. The dashboard is like the webpage you play free to play on, if anything, with the advertisements (or the welcome ribbon on the dashboard while connected to live) seperate from the gameplay. Poor. Comparison.

 

Again I think you've misinterpreted what it is people are really upset about, which is what I tried to clarify in my last post. I respect and agree with you, quitting is a poor point. And that's something I'll own up to--I made a mistake there, I really thought that's what you mean. And I'm kind of glad to be wrong there, because that seems to be the biggest thing thrown back in the faces of people upset with this recent trend. By loyalty though, I mean those who keep paying, who keep playing, and are actually in the thick of the community. Most Tip.it'ers are, and as you've said we're mostly the 80+ skills folk who keep their pockets lined by continuing that. Quoting a post that I'm directing to other people, however, and taking it out of context is not the best way to prove your point. I have repeatedly argued my stance on this in more direct ways that I think qualify for the feedback you're looking for. That, however, was me taking up my grievances with the mindset of fellow community members who fail to realize what we're up in arms about as you have.

 

You say it's a mountain out of a molehill...why? You say I'm not being objective, yet the trend of this type of content has been established. And it's dismissed out of hand because it's low-leveled. And despite the fact that the displeasure with such things are because we don't want to see this spiral out of control as we have in the past, pre-Gerhard era. That is not a failure to be objective. It's happened before. The content was removed as a testament of being different from the RuneScape of the past, but now it's back again in a slicker form that isn't fooling anyone. Even the people upset with those complaining can see it and acknowledge it. So if that 'RuneScape of the Past' is back again what exactly does that tell you about the turn they're taking in the company? And you wonder why people are worried...really?

 

But then we get to the point in your post where those ad hominems you accused me of creep their way back into your soapbox speech. We, as in the people who are playing on this fansite, are the core. The clan users who keep paying members, the high level skillers who keep pushing to bigger milestones, the researchers who labor and show brilliant work. We are the core. You're confusing the displeasure with this trend as if it's thrown on the breaks on all of these core members who are going, "WHOAH WHAT IS THIS [cabbage]? I'M NOT PLAYING ANY MORE." That's simply not true, and honestly it's about as ignorant as you can get. It's players like us who make up the core. It's players like you who have quit and moved on. If you're saying that I, as a part of this core community, have no right to say such things where do you, a person who quit and no longer contributes, get to say anything either? You're brandishing about a moot point as if it's strengthening your argument. It's not.

 

I am voicing my concerns because I care about the game and I don't want to see it crumble, as companies have in the past when they have taken a more extreme version of this track. RuneScape is not at that point. I have freely admitted it, for all that it's been ignored...I simply don't want to see it get that bad. So I give my feedback. And when people are posting here saying that it's wrong, I'll defend my point of view. This board is a place for debating about this game, or haven't you realized that? Good lord, there hasn't been just one incident of things like this. If there was, this issue wouldn't have been debated for 3 months. Yet the same thing is said over and over, "It's just one small update." Well congratulations, yes it's a small update. They add up. And they have the potential to get worse. Denying that is just as silly as saying it definitely will happen. And I'm not claiming the latter, but you sure as hell are shouting the former and blaming me for that. Bit funny, that.

 

So I'd appreciate it if you could construct your next reply with a shred of consideration for what's been said and not just what you want to banter on about to soothe your ego. I'm interested in discussing it but it seems like there's nothing new being brought forth and we're just spinning in circles.

[Stewie_Griffen]

There are no ad hominems here. If anyone's throwing them around, it's you. Your comparisons and derogatory tones imply that you think less of people who are upset about this chain of events. Aka stupid, lesser intelligence, an idiot. To recap your own post:

 

[hide]

I genuinely wonder if the people who post on these forums demanding that Jagex bow to their every demand ask for free health insurance with their Big Macs

Your individual complaints are a drop in the water to Jagex and whining over something as petty as an ad (an ad that's basicaly a stylized version of the old level up windows) won't accomplish anything.

Did I crusade on Tip.it or the RSOF, demanding that Jagex cave to my demands or else they wouldn't see my six dollars again? Did I say that the game was in decline because the updates didn't pertain to me anymore? No. I cancelled my membership, and moved on with my life. I don't see why it's so difficult for others to do the same.

[/hide]

 

I disagree with your argument because it makes no sense and seems to only stem from the fact that you think everyone's a whiner. You seem to feel that because you lost your interest in the game and quit, you are therefore superior and everyone should react your way when in fact the people upset about this are the people with strong interests in the game. Thus, the false sense of superiority. "Why aren't they just quitting instead of whining, like I did? They should just get over it, they're making stupid decisions." If you don't know the people behind the arguments and you won't judge them, then why make broad characterizations ground in misinterpretations? Surely someone so interested in logic sees how just illogical that is.

 

Verizon, WoW, Xbox are double if not quadruple the amount paid out in RS for the benefits. And while I still think it's a poor comparison, I see the nature of your point though. While I can agree we are being well compensated, that's not the point being argued. If it were simply a matter of compensation, we would be encouraging these updates, not denouncing them! After all, aren't we, the paying members, the ones who would reap the benefits of them? No, that is not the point. And saying that other communities don't complain equally across the board...well, I don't know where the fault lies there. It's either a lack of experience with other MMOs/large game communities or human nature. Ever looked at the Minecraft community, for example? XD As for the Kinect issue, again, it is not present in the element of gameplay (when you play L4D or Dead Space or Bioshock), and thus a poor comparison. Xbox Live, as a service, is not the dashboard. The dashboard is like the webpage you play free to play on, if anything, with the advertisements (or the welcome ribbon on the dashboard while connected to live) seperate from the gameplay. Poor. Comparison.

 

Again I think you've misinterpreted what it is people are really upset about, which is what I tried to clarify in my last post. I respect and agree with you, quitting is a poor point. And that's something I'll own up to--I made a mistake there, I really thought that's what you mean. And I'm kind of glad to be wrong there, because that seems to be the biggest thing thrown back in the faces of people upset with this recent trend. By loyalty though, I mean those who keep paying, who keep playing, and are actually in the thick of the community. Most Tip.it'ers are, and as you've said we're mostly the 80+ skills folk who keep their pockets lined by continuing that. Quoting a post that I'm directing to other people, however, and taking it out of context is not the best way to prove your point. I have repeatedly argued my stance on this in more direct ways that I think qualify for the feedback you're looking for. That, however, was me taking up my grievances with the mindset of fellow community members who fail to realize what we're up in arms about as you have.

 

You say it's a mountain out of a molehill...why? You say I'm not being objective, yet the trend of this type of content has been established. And it's dismissed out of hand because it's low-leveled. And despite the fact that the displeasure with such things are because we don't want to see this spiral out of control as we have in the past, pre-Gerhard era. That is not a failure to be objective. It's happened before. The content was removed as a testament of being different from the RuneScape of the past, but now it's back again in a slicker form that isn't fooling anyone. Even the people upset with those complaining can see it and acknowledge it. So if that 'RuneScape of the Past' is back again what exactly does that tell you about the turn they're taking in the company? And you wonder why people are worried...really?

 

But then we get to the point in your post where those ad hominems you accused me of creep their way back into your soapbox speech. We, as in the people who are playing on this fansite, are the core. The clan users who keep paying members, the high level skillers who keep pushing to bigger milestones, the researchers who labor and show brilliant work. We are the core. You're confusing the displeasure with this trend as if it's thrown on the breaks on all of these core members who are going, "WHOAH WHAT IS THIS [cabbage]? I'M NOT PLAYING ANY MORE." That's simply not true, and honestly it's about as ignorant as you can get. It's players like us who make up the core. It's players like you who have quit and moved on. If you're saying that I, as a part of this core community, have no right to say such things where do you, a person who quit and no longer contributes, get to say anything either? You're brandishing about a moot point as if it's strengthening your argument. It's not.

 

I am voicing my concerns because I care about the game and I don't want to see it crumble, as companies have in the past when they have taken a more extreme version of this track. RuneScape is not at that point. I have freely admitted it, for all that it's been ignored...I simply don't want to see it get that bad. So I give my feedback. And when people are posting here saying that it's wrong, I'll defend my point of view. This board is a place for debating about this game, or haven't you realized that? Good lord, there hasn't been just one incident of things like this. If there was, this issue wouldn't have been debated for 3 months. Yet the same thing is said over and over, "It's just one small update." Well congratulations, yes it's a small update. They add up. And they have the potential to get worse. Denying that is just as silly as saying it definitely will happen. And I'm not claiming the latter, but you sure as hell are shouting the former and blaming me for that. Bit funny, that.

 

So I'd appreciate it if you could construct your next reply with a shred of consideration for what's been said and not just what you want to banter on about to soothe your ego. I'm interested in discussing it but it seems like there's nothing new being brought forth and we're just spinning in circles.

 

 

Do you know what an ad hominem is? Those statements never once attacked you as an individual, yet you have the gall to claim you aren't guilty of this when you said I was a childish idiot in another post. Attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his/her argument = ad hominem. You'd have to be pretty insecure to think I was attacking you as an individual with those statements.

 

I really fail to see how my post just characterizes everyone as a whiner, other than the fact that you're complaining over something small and therefore will see anyone that disagrees with you as someone with a "sense of superiority" (a phrase you seem to use a lot here) who thinks everyone is a whiner. I just said that if people really cared about the Runescape community they would complain over key issues rather than a pop up ad in F2P.

 

The Minecraft community is hilariously whiny but they're also generally hardcore PC gamers, who generally also have this sense of entitlement.

 

I think you're misunderstanding my comparison. Xbox Live does provide the means for these games to be online, yes. I'm talking about Microsoft's service though. Valve, the company that makes Left 4 Dead, is obviously not responsible for ads on the Xbox Live dashboard. Microsoft is, and that is the comparison I was going with. If you want to play an Xbox Live Arcade game or use Netflix (Hulu just got added too I think) along with any of the dashboard features, there will be Kinect ads. That's what I was referring to.

 

Like you said, that content has been removed. Hence, a clean slate. You have a total of one update here to base this "trend" on, and it's simply a flashier version of the "Members can now use: ..." pop ups of the past. This is one update since the change in policy. If there's a trend, then there would be more than one. You'd like to imagine that a trend will follow because you already believe that Jagex will do this. Therefore, you're not really being objective here. Kind of speaks a lot to your loyalty as a member when you automatically think Jagex will turn to bothering F2P with advertising to get more money as a result of one small low-level pop up. I wonder why people are worried because this is literally one small update. This isn't a giant helicopter tour of the member's world. It's like you're willing to throw Jagex under the bus over one pop-up.

 

You all may be the highest leveled and most involved, but why should you get the majority of the updates and Jagex responsiveness when you don't make up the majority of the players? You may have higher skills or more clan activity than other members, but you're all paying $6 a month. To Jagex, that's no core. If you aren't appeased then odds are you'll still keep playing. If a level 90 player who is still struggling with Monkey Madness doesn't get cool things every once and a while, they'll be more likely to quit because they have less emotional investment in the game. You aren't a high value customer to Jagex because your money is essentially guaranteed. Such is the issue with being the loyal core. You can discuss any update you like but at the end of the day you'll sigh and hand over your money.

 

Soapbox? I'm not the one portraying myself as the glorious high level core trying to save Runescape from Jagex's evil money grubbing ways. I'm just asking what the big deal is here. The slippery slope arguments on this forum really get old. Apparently one update is automatically a trend.

 

Go ahead and generalize me as some whiner who quit, it really helps your argument. No seriously, it would be nice if you would take me out of whatever stereotype you've lumped me together with. I'm not claiming to argue for or against Jagex since I don't play anymore. I'm arguing against the view that your $6 a month is somehow worth more to Jagex because of your playing time. I paid membership and never claimed I was better than any of my fellow members at the time. It's something I can talk about. In the same post, you accuse me of having a false sense of superiority while you claim Jagex should cater to you and other high level players. What?

 

I'm glad that you voice your concerns and I think it's hilarious that once again in the same post you have managed to criticize me for "generalizing" you while you generalize me. Once again, a little objectivity would be nice. I'm voicing my concerns about this cancerous trend on this site. Every recent update thread is filled with criticism over petty garbage like this. What's more troubling is that it outweighs valid criticism. But then again, this site is for voicing concerns and criticisms...as long as they don't disagree with you, then they're idiots, right?

 

Good lord, there hasn't just been one incident like this since Jagex changed their policy! In fact, there's been so many that you have yet to name another one since MMG came on and got rid of gnomecopters and the like. It would really help if you could provide more examples other than, of course, the Abyssal Vinewhip sponsored by Coca-Cola. I'm also not shouting anything, and how am I silly for saying that one update is not a trend when you can't provide more than one update as an example? The burden of proof is up to you. That doesn't make me silly.

 

There is nothing new being brought forth because you'd rather generalize me as the unconcerned retired player who doesn't care about the game rather than address my viewpoints with a hint of objectivity. It takes a lot of nerve to say that I based my argument off of ad hominems in the same post that you claim "you can't have a valid view on the game because you don't play anymore".

 

You've brought up valid counterpoints. I can admit some of my comparisons were poor (like I said, burden of proof resides with the person trying to prove something) and that the quote I had of you wasn't really all that relevant. Why can't you discuss the issue like that instead of disregarding me as some sort of aloof retiree who looks down on those brave souls who fight for the future of Runescape?

[BioIce]

Daemonheim experience nerf at 90 combat, although this is easily circumvented with the "3 skillers 2 combatants" method for exp equal to an F35 prestige P2P player by playing in the closed garden of w61.

 

Most recent Christmas holiday event is partially members for the ice crown.

 

An inability to combat suicide botters/gold farmers despite stating they have a program in place to take care of this matter.

 

Artisan workshop pop-up.

 

Veteran capes and classic capes, they once said it was for everyone.

 

The katana, plenty of people bought the item even though they're paying membership with other means. There are already peddlers in the black market selling accounts with these.

 

"Loyalty" program not being cosmetic.

 

This new dwarven axe pop-up.

 

 

 

These are the incidents that have caused a row in the recent past and will continue to cause a row if updates similar in nature are released by Jagex.

 

A slow boil cooks the frog, and for Jagex it's working.

[Stewie_Griffen]

Daemonheim experience nerf at 90 combat, although this is easily circumvented with the "3 skillers 2 combatants" method for exp equal to an F35 prestige P2P player by playing in the closed garden of w61.

 

Most recent Christmas holiday event is partially members for the ice crown.

 

An inability to combat suicide botters/gold farmers despite stating they have a program in place to take care of this matter.

 

Artisan workshop pop-up.

 

Veteran capes and classic capes, they once said it was for everyone.

 

The katana, plenty of people bought the item even though they're paying membership with other means. There are already peddlers in the black market selling accounts with these.

 

"Loyalty" program not being cosmetic.

 

This new dwarven axe pop-up.

 

 

 

These are the incidents that have caused a row in the recent past and will continue to cause a row if updates similar in nature are released by Jagex.

 

A slow boil cooks the frog, and for Jagex it's working.

 

1) I agree, Dungeoneering is abysmal in F2P. I don't really consider Dungeoneering as a huge draw to P2P though. If a F2P player finds the mechanics of Dungeoneering boring and they've never had membership before, they probably won't get membership for more experience in something that bores them. When I think of a membership draw for Jagex, I think of something flashy. Castle Wars, for instance, and especially these new clan citadels. Can't get much more flashier than your own floating castle.

 

2) So? Where were you when the Wintumber tree came out? Like you said, partially members. F2P still gets holiday fun.

 

3) Not really sure how this relates to pushing people to P2P. Could you elaborate?

 

4) A pop-up? You mean one of those things you can press 'x' and forget about? Seriously guys. Not a big deal.

 

5) I agree with this but if Jagex hasn't given skillcapes to free players with 99 in a skill, then this isn't a recent trend.

 

6) You pay membership with a card and get a cosmetic katana. It's not really pushing people to membership. If anything it's encouraging people to use the cards instead of paying via credit card online. From what I've heard the cards aren't doing too well in terms of sales. I also tend to doubt the chance to get a shiny katana will force people to membership.

 

7) Pay membership, receive benefits. Should all of P2P be cosmetic, since we don't want to encourage free players to subscribe for tangible skill-based benefits?

 

8) See #4.

 

There has hardly been a row over these updates. When I think of an update that causes conflict, I think of the Falador riots after free trade was removed. I think of an absolute [cabbage]storm on the RSOF. I don't think a few dozen mildly agitated people disliking an update qualifies it as polarizing. Dramatic language doesn't really help your point. What are the ends to this devilish Jagex plot?

[Cheefoo]

Daemonheim experience nerf at 90 combat, although this is easily circumvented with the "3 skillers 2 combatants" method for exp equal to an F35 prestige P2P player by playing in the closed garden of w61.

 

Most recent Christmas holiday event is partially members for the ice crown.

 

An inability to combat suicide botters/gold farmers despite stating they have a program in place to take care of this matter.

 

Artisan workshop pop-up.

 

Veteran capes and classic capes, they once said it was for everyone.

 

The katana, plenty of people bought the item even though they're paying membership with other means. There are already peddlers in the black market selling accounts with these.

 

"Loyalty" program not being cosmetic.

 

This new dwarven axe pop-up.

 

 

 

These are the incidents that have caused a row in the recent past and will continue to cause a row if updates similar in nature are released by Jagex.

 

A slow boil cooks the frog, and for Jagex it's working.

 

You know what? They had a member's only holiday event reward years ago. Remember the wintumber tree? That crown is pretty ugly anyway.

 

I don't remember them specifically saying that vet/classic capes would be available to non-members. They might have said "everyone" at some point, but it was a simple misunderstanding.

 

The katana is purely cosmetic. Sure, it might seem "unfair" to people who can't get the special Gamestop cards, but that's business. Retailers are known to pull stupid crap like this, Gamestop especially. Jagex isn't at fault here.

 

The loyalty program was never said to be "purely cosmietic", the first time they mentioned auras they referred to them as "buffing auras". I don't see how this is a problem, though. You have to pay for membership for so many other things. But hey, isn't that unfair that people who pay for membership longer get more benefits? Imagine how long it takes to get 99 slayer or herblore or summoning. I'm sure you would have payed at least a few months of membership before you could reach those.

 

I really see no problem in a few pop-ups. Is it really so bad that they urge you to pay for the game you're playing? They aren't very common either.

 

All in all, I think everyone's giving Jagex a bad wrap for such minor things. If you look a bit closer, it's easy to see their motivation behind some of these decisions, and it's usually not as bad as you think.

[BioIce]

2.) Unfortunately for you: been there, done that, got the scarves and hats and all that nonsense. (Yes, yes, that wasn't 2006. But I happen to like reindeers.) Then it was back to murdering people. It didn't stop me from haranguing Jagex on the matter.

 

3.) F2P is dominated by bots at every raw resource. The only way to avoid this is to pay for membership where you'll have a wider option for money.

 

4.) It's a big deal, because it's the first. A precedent. It's a tiny obscure test. A check on the temperature. Jagex has used similar methods to test other things. (The rooms for the Lum catacombs as a precursor to Dungeoneering.)

 

5.) The fact they let free-to-play vote on it caused enough trouble.

 

6.) Yet again a new precedent. They're starting it out slow, get people used to the idea of paying for items that come with membership. If they're getting mixed reactions, then good. They'll revise their fool notions.

 

7.) Prior to the so-called "loyalty" program everybody in P2P were on equal ground in terms of getting gear with the only factor being how hard you work for it. This update has devalued this sense of accomplishment for these types of players. (It will if any future update in it is game-breaking.)

 

8.) Second strike. It can only get worse from here if they continue with these in F2P because MMG failed to live up to his promise when he took control.

 

There have been rows over these updates. There were plenty of flames and derision aimed at Jagex. In this forum, in the rsof, and even in botting sites. Hell even the private server forums. Don't need a riot to know a lot of people reacted negatively across the whole spectrum.

 

My words are no more dramatic than using Big Macs and other "Americanisms." A good thing I'm not American, in any case.

 

The goal is profit by sacrificing integrity. Not something I agree with.

[HunterDexter]

Not to forget that all other updates lately are lacking durability and quality.

[BioIce]

But hey, isn't that unfair that people who pay for membership longer get more benefits? Imagine how long it takes to get 99 slayer or herblore or summoning.

 

Here's the problem: 99 slayer takes membership and effort. A loyalty item takes membership and no effort.

 

There will be accounts that idle in P2P instead of canceling membership for fear of losing points. Not a whole lot, but enough.

 

EDIT:

 

Not to forget that all other updates lately are lacking durability and quality.

 

Content updates can be relative. I'm looking forward to the clan citadel, for one. Others mightn't be.

[Stewie_Griffen]

2.) Unfortunately for you: been there, done that, got the scarves and hats and all that nonsense. (Yes, yes, that wasn't 2006. But I happen to like reindeers.) Then it was back to murdering people. It didn't stop me from haranguing Jagex on the matter.

 

3.) F2P is dominated by bots at every raw resource. The only way to avoid this is to pay for membership where you'll have a wider option for money.

 

4.) It's a big deal, because it's the first. A precedent. It's a tiny obscure test. A check on the temperature. Jagex has used similar methods to test other things. (The rooms for the Lum catacombs as a precursor to Dungeoneering.)

 

5.) The fact they let free-to-play vote on it caused enough trouble.

 

6.) Yet again a new precedent. They're starting it out slow, get people used to the idea of paying for items that come with membership. If they're getting mixed reactions, then good. They'll revise their fool notions.

 

7.) Prior to the so-called "loyalty" program everybody in P2P were on equal ground in terms of getting gear with the only factor being how hard you work for it. This update has devalued this sense of accomplishment for these types of players.

 

8.) Second strike. It can only get worse from here if they continue with these in F2P because MMG failed to live up to his promise when he took control.

 

There have been rows over these updates. There were plenty of flames and derision aimed at Jagex. In this forum, in the rsof, and even in botting sites. Hell even the private server forums. Don't need a riot to know a lot of people reacted negatively across the whole spectrum.

 

My words are no more dramatic than using Big Macs and other "Americanisms." A good thing I'm not American, in any case.

 

The goal is profit by sacrificing integrity. Not something I agree with.

 

2) That's the 2005 event, which is not the Wintumber tree. I'm not sure why exactly you thought that was a response.

 

3) Obviously. A RWT company will be better off not paying for membership. Bots are not a Jagex update though and eliminating every bot is unrealistic. Bot makers change software as Jagex changes their countermeasures. It's an arm race and as a result there will always be bots. In case you haven't noticed, members resources are bot infested as well. I still remember the days of competing with green dragon bots.

 

4) So because there's one ad, Jagex is planning as we speak to turn F2P into AdScape. Huge logical leap there.

 

5) And yet, I don't see F2P players choosing membership to get a veteran cape. Jagex's devilish conspiracy to get more money failed. Well, either that or the poll was a gaffe and they didn't intend to let veteran F2Pers have a cape when F2Pers with 99 cooking didn't get one.

 

6) You can't have a "new precedent" with one event in this case. Also please try to be objective here. Let facts determine your opinion, not the other way around.

 

7) Everybody in P2P? Separate issue then. Nothing to do with getting F2Pers to join up.

 

8) Nope. Slippery slopes are not a good way to predict the future. Then again, you're already caught up in your little anti-Jagex conspiracy so I may as well let you enjoy it.

 

You will of course view the few dozen threads made on these issues as widespread dissent, but they really aren't. The community at large does not see these as issues.

 

Also, what? "Good thing I'm not an American so I don't use an analogy of something else that costs about $6". Seriously? Fine then. Fish and chips. Vodka. Wonton soup. Sushi. Poutine. I don't care, take your pick of $6 foods since apparently American references offend you. Want me to convert six dollars into other currency so as not to offend you?

 

Their "goal" is one you've constructed to be in line with your own beliefs. If Jagex was all about profit over integrity, then there would be far more conniving updates than a pop up.

[BioIce]

2) So you have no issue with a past event that did pretty much the same thing, yet you'll still use it to argue against Jagex. What?

I liked the reward. I did not like how they implemented it without offering it to F2P as well. If that concept is difficult to grasp - what a pity.

 

In case you haven't noticed, members resources are bot infested as well. I still remember the days of competing with green dragon bots.

Fact: members still have many, many various training options.

 

5) And yet, I don't see F2P players choosing membership to get a veteran cape.

From what I know, there are F2Pers who have gotten it just as a status symbol. EDIT: Obviously not the pure F2Pers. But an ex-member is F2P all the same if they're around in F2P.

As for the poll, recall how the Free Trade poll was rigged.

 

7) Everybody in P2P? Separate issue then. Nothing to do with getting F2Pers to join up.

On the contrary. It's not just F2P it was aimed at of course.

 

Their "goal" is one you've constructed to be in line with your own beliefs. If Jagex was all about profit over integrity, then there would be far more conniving updates than a pop up.

 

The idea is to introduce things slowly. That way it won't be as painful. If they go too fast what with how hamfisted they are they know they'll end up losing. Look up on how to cook frogs and lobsters. It's very effective.

 

Kindly attack my argument instead of attacking me, which you did well enough until it got to Americans and conspiracies in an attempt to dismiss me. Heh. That's called, if you'll pardon me pointing the obvious, trolling. I'd also call you a bonehead, but that's an outright insult and against board rules. My apologies if that offended you.

 

And before you get fired up about how it's not trolling:

 

a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

[Stewie_Griffen]

2) So you have no issue with a past event that did pretty much the same thing, yet you'll still use it to argue against Jagex. What?

I liked the reward. I did not like how they implemented it without offering it to F2P as well. If that concept is difficult to grasp - what a pity.

 

In case you haven't noticed, members resources are bot infested as well. I still remember the days of competing with green dragon bots.

Fact: members still have many, many various training options.

 

5) And yet, I don't see F2P players choosing membership to get a veteran cape.

From what I know, there are F2Pers who have gotten it just as a status symbol. EDIT: Obviously not the pure F2Pers. But an ex-member is F2P all the same if they're around in F2P.

As for the poll, recall how the Free Trade poll was rigged.

 

7) Everybody in P2P? Separate issue then. Nothing to do with getting F2Pers to join up.

On the contrary. It's not just F2P it was aimed at of course.

 

Their "goal" is one you've constructed to be in line with your own beliefs. If Jagex was all about profit over integrity, then there would be far more conniving updates than a pop up.

 

The idea is to introduce things slowly. That way it won't be as painful. If they go too fast what with how hamfisted they are they know they'll end up losing. Look up on how to cook frogs and lobsters. It's very effective.

 

Kindly attack my argument instead of attacking me, which you did well enough until it got to Americans and conspiracies in an attempt to dismiss me. Heh. That's called, if you'll pardon me pointing the obvious, trolling. I'd also call you a bonehead, but that's an outright insult and against board rules. My apologies if that offended you.

 

And before you get fired up about how it's not trolling:

 

a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

 

2) The concept is easy to grasp and it would have been great if you included it in your post. The burden of proof lies with you, I shouldn't be pitied for not grasping a point you didn't post.

 

3) They do. Bots are still not a Jagex update so they shouldn't be included in your list.

 

5) I don't recall how the poll was rigged. I remember that people were immensely upset over the "petition" so Jagex made a poll that said pretty much the same thing. Not rigged.

 

7) So it targets everyone, and not specifically F2P. Why is it on a list of small updates exclusively targeting F2P to join up?

 

You still have no body of evidence supporting that Jagex is attempting to "turn up the heat" besides a flimsy list of updates and your own beliefs. I shouldn't have to accept your beliefs as fact in order to agree with your argument.

 

By the way, I'd call you a biased idiot but that's against the board rules. I'm not just insulting you here, I said it was against the board rules so it's okay though! Also no offense, which I wouldn't have to post if I wasn't trying to offend you.

 

And of course, I'm disagreeing with you so I'm trolling. Classic. Well, your post evoked an emotional response in me because I disagree with it. Therefore, you're trolling. Before you get all fired up saying it's not trolling, look at your definition.

[BioIce]

5.) Some fools rigged bots to harvest names off the highscores and vote for it even if you were the type inclined to vote no. The petition was a poll itself anyway. Yes, it was an advertising blitz.

 

7.) That was a list about recent things that have caused trouble. I didn't put anything in it that bluntly said F2P-exclusive troubles only. Sometimes I wonder if Blauynte or however you spell her name was right about Jagex jumping the shark on some update.

 

And of course, I'm disagreeing with you so I'm trolling. Classic.

Your earlier posts already riled up Kimberly going on about Big Macs.