93 years later

[archimage_a]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_day

 

Have we learned anything in the past 93 years?

Do we still remember?

 

Discuss =P

[Howlin0001]

We have learned how to kill each other better/easier.

[user1991]

l

[Mercifull]

When I was in school (which wasn't long ago) I was told the two minutes silence was a time for quiet and personal reflection on what happened but now it just seems to be 2 minutes of not speaking which is a bit sad really. When the place I was at was observing the 2 minutes silence people were still texting, browsing the internet, writing emails etc.

[user1991]

When I was in school (which wasn't long ago) I was told the two minutes silence was a time for quiet and personal reflection on what happened but now it just seems to be 2 minutes of not speaking which is a bit sad really. When the place I was at was observing the 2 minutes silence people were still texting, browsing the internet, writing emails etc.

 

Hmm, perhaps.

[Will H]

Not really. There have been developments in rights. But are we any closer to peace? No.

 

We're still fighting over issues, religion, corporate greed, government abuse of power, war, terror. It's simply an extension of human selfishness. As long as people see themselves as separate entities in competition with others and not as subjective vessels of experience of the same united consciousness, there will be no peace. Politicians don't seem to understand that peace isn't something that can come from the top down. You can't force peace, people will just fight it. Peace has to come from us.. there needs to be a fundamental change in the way we perceive reality, before anything approaching a lasting unity is going to happen.

 

 

I think what you're describing is "compassion" or "empathy". The average human balances compassion with individualism. Too much individualism, and you get wars and genocide. Too much compassion, and we become vulnerable to the individuals who would take advantage of it, and you get slavery and oppression. There is no ideal solution, but being in the middle is better than being at the fringes. What does improve the situation is when we as a whole learn lessons from bad experiences. For example, the Allied forces didn't hand out another Treaty of Versailles to Germany after World War 2, it was rebuilt to become a country with one of the strongest economies in the world. Guilt clauses on peace treaties aren't a good idea, now we know that.

 

You yourself named a decent lesson. Comparing, say, Afghanistan with Libya, we now know that transitions from oppressive regimes to peaceful countries work much better and have more stable results when it's fundamentally fuelled by the people of the country, instead of by foreign intervention.

 

There are plenty of lessons that we now take for granted, which is why many people think that nothing has actually happened. It's a slower progress than a human lifetime can provide the perspective to fully appreciate. That's why giving history lessons to our children is so important.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I hear that a record number of poppies were sold this year.

[user1991]

l

[Ginger_Warrior]

One thing I have been pleased about is the number of young people I've seen wearing the poppy, even high school children (11-16). It's good that people of my generation can look at the conflicts in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq, and because of that, be able to understand just what level of sacrifice a previous generation made for them. It's also refreshing that in a new digital age where young, impressionable people are relentlessly bombarded with corporate greed and n culture of self-indulgence, that the sad reality of war and its consequences hasn't been lost on my generation.

 

In a sense, it makes me sad that while today, we remember those from the First World War, and on Sunday we remember those who have fallen since, today's young generation aren't fighting a war... they're just unemployed and having ambition sucked away from them by the day. I'm not sure the people I care for day-in, day-out would be particularly proud of the way banks and politicians have mishandled the economic freedom they fought for, and how they've collectively passed the fallout of the recession onto people who are the same age as they were, when they too had to make sacrifices in the national interest.

 

During my two minutes of reflection, I thought that, just like the WW2 veterans sitting only five metres away from me had to following the Wall Street Crash, in the future it will be up to today's young people to deal with the long-term consequences of a 'broken' global economic system. We might just be glad that in order to do this, another Great War will not be required.

[Will H]

[hide]

Not really. There have been developments in rights. But are we any closer to peace? No.

 

We're still fighting over issues, religion, corporate greed, government abuse of power, war, terror. It's simply an extension of human selfishness. As long as people see themselves as separate entities in competition with others and not as subjective vessels of experience of the same united consciousness, there will be no peace. Politicians don't seem to understand that peace isn't something that can come from the top down. You can't force peace, people will just fight it. Peace has to come from us.. there needs to be a fundamental change in the way we perceive reality, before anything approaching a lasting unity is going to happen.

 

 

I think what you're describing is "compassion" or "empathy". The average human balances compassion with individualism. Too much individualism, and you get wars and genocide. Too much compassion, and we become vulnerable to the individuals who would take advantage of it, and you get slavery and oppression. There is no ideal solution, but being in the middle is better than being at the fringes. What does improve the situation is when we as a whole learn lessons from bad experiences. For example, the Allied forces didn't hand out another Treaty of Versailles to Germany after World War 2, it was rebuilt to become a country with one of the strongest economies in the world. Guilt clauses on peace treaties aren't a good idea, now we know that.

 

You yourself named a decent lesson. Comparing, say, Afghanistan with Libya, we now know that transitions from oppressive regimes to peaceful countries work much better and have more stable results when it's fundamentally fuelled by the people of the country, instead of by foreign intervention.

 

There are plenty of lessons that we now take for granted, which is why many people think that nothing has actually happened. It's a slower progress than a human lifetime can provide the perspective to fully appreciate. That's why giving history lessons to our children is so important.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I hear that a record number of poppies were sold this year.

[/hide]

 

I agree, it is important to learn from past mistakes. But.. I think there is something much more sinister at the heart of all of this.

 

Improving on past mistakes is, if you'll pardon the hastily thought up analogy, like putting icing on a cake made of horse manure. No, seriously, it's going to taste a little better, but the foundations are still fundamentally terrible. I'm not saying let's not do it, but I mean.. Ok to put what I'm saying in perspective. We have learned that excessive and cruel reparations will cause backlash, and we should in stead approach from an angle of democratic reform. That is an improvement. But still, existing in the same world, is the quandry that; There are enough resources and wealth on this planet to feed, clothe, and educate everyone. Yet people starve.

 

We're adding all these extra rules and safeguards to improve on what we've got, but what we're really not questioning is the very foundation of the whole thing in the first place. We're making the world a little better each time, but eventually will reach the point where we can't better it anymore, because it is the exact principles of our identities and societies that cause these problems in the first place. I believe that the fundamental cause of all of this is the fact that we perceive reality, thinking that we are separate entities living our own, separate lives. This creates all the greed, all the suffering, all the cruelty. Because as they say, its a dog eat dog world. People want to get over on other people and have more than other people. When coming from an angle of universal unity and oneness, such desires are rendered utterly meaningless, and frankly absurd. Yet there are still desires to excel, to create, to flourish. (Capitalism has corrupted to such a degree that people think that expansion of wealth is the only way in which competition is meaningful. "But wouldn't everyone just sit around miserable, with no incentive to work harder!" As if the gaining of money is the only end goal, and they have no desire to excel by any other unit of measurement. Creativity, expression, happiness, communication, connecting with others, anyone?) But I do agree, you can't force these changes on the people. You can't have a communist government that just dictates these things into being. It's disingenuous and fantastical.

 

My point being, there needs to be a fundamental change in the ROOT of human perception and experience. Change has to come from the bottom up.

 

Obviously we should keep improving and learning from past mistakes as it is pragmatic in the actual world we live.

 

But eventually.. we're gonna have to look inside ourselves, and start to build a new society with a new unit of measurement, from the direct will of the people, if we want any real lasting change.

 

I don't think that's idealism, I think it's realism.

 

Although you're right that it's the human conditions and societies that cause these problems, that's the state with the most stability we know of. Even if we still don't like it, it's the hand that humanity has been dealt, and we can't fold. All we can do is be pragmatic.

 

If everyone had a psychological sense of 'universal oneness', everyone would be presented with the opportunity to live a better life by shunning that and turn to amoral individualism, and plenty would take it, no doubt. Expand that notion to one hostile country, and the death toll would be far greater than either World War.

 

I don't believe that we'll ever reach the point where our own social identities will be the last limit for improvement, either. New problems will always come up, and the rules of politics and warfare change so often that we'll never concieveably run out until humanity/civilisation ends. It's like saying "What happens if science answers every single question?". It's an interesting question, but we're so unlikely to get there that we needn't prepare for it. What you're suggesting is the definition of idealism. It's got merit, but it won't last long in practice, because at least one person is out there to ruin it.

[Ezkaton]

Do we still remember?

 

*Points to avatar and sig*

[Tim]

During work yesterday It was one of the rudest things I saw. me and another contractor were swapping monitors for a building and it clicked 11, so we all stood, stopped what we were doing, lowered our heads and remained quiet while listening to the ...fadeout song? on the radio they play at the ceremony.

Down the hall, there were people laughing, yelling and carrying on, during the silence.

 

This is on a military base...

[sees_all1]

93 years later, the world is about to explode. The one lesson from WWI that we've learned and have still applied is that the victors of war have a responsibility to help their opponents rebuild their countries.

[Crocefisso]

When I was in school (which wasn't long ago) I was told the two minutes silence was a time for quiet and personal reflection on what happened but now it just seems to be 2 minutes of not speaking which is a bit sad really. When the place I was at was observing the 2 minutes silence people were still texting, browsing the internet, writing emails etc.

That's modernity for you.

[Danqazmlp]

One thing we have learnt is that throwing huge numbers at the enemy is not the way. We still go to war, we still battle but we don't lose tens of thousands in single battles, in single days. Soldiers lives are valued much more highly than before, which even with killing, is a good thing. wars can be fought much more efficiently with much less needless killing and the loss of generations of people.

[Howlin0001]

That doesn't really apply in 3rd world countries though?

[Zierro]

As long as people see themselves as separate entities in competition with others and not as subjective vessels of experience of the same united consciousness, there will be no peace.

 

This.

 

What you're suggesting is the definition of idealism. It's got merit, but it won't last long in practice, because at least one person is out there to ruin it.

 

And this.

[bowey]

watched it all on tv

[user1991]

j

[Giordano]

 

Nah man. Some things are true regardless of whether you believe in them or not. True right now, true 1 billion years ago, and will be true forever.

 

To live a fiction (the self) and to base a system on the pursuit of a fiction (there is no money) is the root of all this. There will always be aberrations, always be people that cause harm, but if we can even get 10% of the population to awaken spiritually, the wheels will start to spin. And when someone has reality on their side, there's only so much you can say, only so much you can legislate, until there's nothing left to hide behind.

 

The problem now is that people don't take "philosophical" matters seriously (the word philosophy anyone?) because its all been done before. There is NOONE in politics, the media, pushing anything to do with the nature of reality. Even if you're reading this.. ugh... nature of reality (and something about me what?). What could be more important? It isn't hard to see that things like money are transient and illusory abstract concepts and that maybe, what we're doing here isn't so normal, isn't so sane, yeah? You ever wonder why McDonalds has such incredible looking pictures, and.. well we all know the answer to that one. It's not even hidden, lies are clearly at the heart of it. Insecure? Put some face paint on your face, literally wear a mask. Unhappy? Get this shiny device!

 

What noone in the main stream is saying, is that.. maybe there are real spiritual and emotional issues behind all this..? Maybe happiness isn't something you can buy?

 

Your assuming the point to existence is to find some sort of spiritual and emotional well-being that I may of already found? Or a state of existence that will take several generations to create and I don't want to waste my entire life pursuing even though I'm never going to see it?

This isn't some far out idealism with its head in the clouds. The corporations and government interests that really control things (not a conspiracy look at campaign contributions for all major politicians.. then tell me, do you think that won't affect their legislative judgment? Do you?) don't care about real issues. Their interest is solely in the expansion of wealth, and the expansion of power. THAT is the illusion. It's totally removed from all reality. The thing it is based on, doesn't even exist! This is about the real issues. The real, emotional and spiritual issues within ourselves at this very moment. That's how we truly fix this world.

 

Think about it, think about the viral nature information can take on with the internet. All it would take is a small percentage of the population to wake up and bring that message to others. And this isn't about adopting a set of hippie beliefs without the reality of it.. The whole issue is the actual reality of the issues within ourselves.

Again, as you did in your first paragraph, you talk on and on about "if we can convince a small part of the population" but you're NOT convincing me, you're just saying you're right and your side is better. No wonder you can't convince even 1% of the world.

 

We've got what, a few decades left of oil, the population is ever growing, there's mass starvation, mass poverty, mass economic turmoil even in the most prosperous of countries, mass unhappiness, global wars, religious extremism, totalitarian dictatorships, diminishing freedoms across the board, and we've got ETERNITY AHEAD OF US. What are we gonna do? Anyone care? That is INSANE. Do you think it's about time we got to the ROOT of this.. about time we started asking ourselves some deep questions about who we are and what we're actually doing here? Do you think that will ever happen?

So you believe the world ahead is full of negatives? Quite a visionary and optimistic you are. Read a history book; the world has gradually gotten itself better by each passing generation. It was a trend started when fire was created.

 

 

But of course, obviously consumer capitalism is so deeply ingrained that any alternative view is frankly ridiculous, and clearly from a realm of pure fantasy, and couldn't possibly be true, because after all, there are shops and stuff out there in the world. And people work their whole lives and stuff, surely all of this wouldn't be going on for NO POINT WHATSOEVER? That's impossible right.. Yeah finishing this sentence is clearly more important than the actual emotional issues we've carried hidden in our psyches' since early childhood, that are still there even now... And clearly the next thought is more important.. ?? And.. I mean cmon guys, lets do something about this while we still have the chance. Is that moment in the future where we figure it out really ever going to come?

You lost me here, were you smoking when you typed this out? You're going to the cliche "Find a deeper meaning" when the world is at rock bottom. :-|

[user1991]

yes.

[Crocefisso]

It's because of the Armistice that we can have internet arguments. :P

[Zierro]

You know what mate? Don't believe a word I say. Don't listen to me AT ALL. Take everything I say here to be an outright lie. But I have one question for you, in clear and specific terms, what is the self?

 

Ego or the concept of "I" is a biological trick in order to preserve and perpetuate the human race - more specifically, humanity. It is apparent in the nature of our communication. We fight what we deem to be weak ideas, we try to evade what intimidates us, we mate with what we find merit in. Logic is this animal's instinct. We wonder. We wander. For what purpose am I self-aware? Is this evolutionary enlightenment or is it a delusional defense? As a human, it is entirely your choice. But either way, you will always be the sacred scum of the earth.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

A fellow organism

[user1991]

Hmm. Interesting.