You're assuming that everyone who leaves hides and bones do so because they cba and I'd support them if that's their reason. This is incorrect.

 

Every time someone says "lol you pick up drops? Must be poor" and then gear up for a GWD trip after their task, you are proven wrong.

You're assuming that everyone who leaves hides and bones do so because they cba and I'd support them if that's their reason. This is incorrect.

 

Every time someone says "lol you pick up drops? Must be poor" and then gear up for a GWD trip after their task, you are proven wrong.

 

Again with the expectation of logical actions. You'll be a much happier person once you accept that people act irrationally and illogically.

 

Fact is, I think that most people who don't pick up bones/hides CBA to do it, irregardless of whether they admit it to you (or even themselves.)

irregardless

 

^lol

 

So what you're saying is "people often don't act rationally so posting information that heps people make accurate decisions is not beneficial".

 

Right.

 

The fact of the matter is that there are people who believe that it's not efficient to pick up hides/bones but do not have the income for it. They are mistaken. I am correcting a specific mistake.

 

Why is this so hard to understand, both of you?

Raging in this thread is inefficient.

irregardless, we know you are correcting a mistake. However it is in our minds almost surely a non-existent one. If I thought a mistake I was correcting was pervasive, but it really wasn't at all and hardly no one made it, and someone informed me nicely, I would appreciate that.

 

 

the subjective values are important to be aware of because in some cases they overwhelm the quantifiable ones. Not always - sometimes gp/h analysis is very valuable, because people are trying to be efficient, but aren't being as efficient as they could be. But this is one such case where they are relevant.

 

relevant not to the content of this thread, but to the size of the audience for which this thread is useful. how important the subjective values are determine how valuable the quantifiable ones are to people.

 

==

example:

 

Most people who do not have a fire capes do not not have one because they are trying to be efficient, and think getting one would be a waste of time - most people don't have one because, in this case, the subjective negative values associated with it (past failures, poor internet connection, etc.) outweigh the positive, concrete xp/h value. Of course such people won't necessarily admit this.

 

I feel like the situation is comparable for people who do not pick of bones/hides.

 

(note: i don't want to get into a discussion about the merits of this analogy; i'm just trying to provide another example where correcting a mistake would not be very useful.).

 

==

 

^ no one is raging. I feel like this is sort of a useful discussion (for the participants, and for people who may read the thread).

irregardless, we know you are correcting a mistake. However it is in our minds almost surely a non-existent one. If I thought a mistake I was correcting was pervasive, but it really wasn't at all and hardly no one made it, and someone informed me nicely, I would appreciate that.

 

 

the subjective values are important to be aware of because in some cases they overwhelm the quantifiable ones. Not always - sometimes gp/h analysis is very valuable, because people are trying to be efficient, but aren't being as efficient as they could be. But this is one such case where they are relevant.

 

relevant not to the content of this thread, but to the size of the audience for which this thread is useful. how important the subjective values are determine how valuable the quantifiable ones are to people.

 

==

example:

 

Most people who do not have a fire capes do not not have one because they are trying to be efficient, and think getting one would be a waste of time - most people don't have one because, in this case, the subjective negative values associated with it (past failures, poor internet connection, etc.) outweigh the positive, concrete xp/h value. Of course such people won't necessarily admit this.

 

I feel like the situation is comparable for people who do not pick of bones/hides.

 

(note: i don't want to get into a discussion about the merits of this analogy; i'm just trying to provide another example where correcting a mistake would not be very useful.).

 

==

 

^ no one is raging. I feel like this is sort of a useful discussion (for the participants, and for people who may read the thread).

 

I'm going to phrase it a bit differently this time.

 

A decision consists of a subjective component acting on an objective one to produce a course of action. The subjective component, what you think makes this information worthless, is a person's own opinions while the objective one is the the physical world. To make a decision, people examine their opinions on the physical world and use the product of that reasoning to come up with a plan for acting on the physical world.

 

In this case, people's maps of the physical world are incorrect. The part of the decision making process that everyone utilises, regardless of how much of a part it plays on the outcome, is extremely commonly misunderstood. I have corrected that and, regardless of whether this will cause people to stop leaving loot, people's understandings of the sacrifices being made in favour of convenience have been improved.

 

There is no such thing as a subjective value "overwhelming" an objective one. Convenience and efficiency are both factors that constantly push on our judgements, and accurate decisions favouring either require an accurate view of the physical world.

So you've discovered that people are stupid and do stupid things all the time and when corrected, defend themselves even if they're wrong (and even if they know they're wrong).

 

 

Join the club.

^^,

 

Yeah, just because the subjective components of a decision happen to be big and decision-determining in a certain situation, doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to still understand the exact value of the objective components too.

 

I have corrected that and, regardless of whether this will cause people to stop leaving loot, people's understandings of the sacrifices being made in favour of convenience have been improved.

 

Yeah, I agree that this is within the realm of what the thread did. It didn't have to to anything - i wouldn't judge you if it had no defined utility to others - but if you must to say it did something, than this is probably accurate.

Raging in this thread is inefficient.

 

Not if your goal is posting on TIF while simultaneously venting anger!

^^,

 

Yeah, just because the subjective components of a decision happen to be big and decision-determining in a certain situation, doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to still understand the exact value of the objective components too.

 

I have corrected that and, regardless of whether this will cause people to stop leaving loot, people's understandings of the sacrifices being made in favour of convenience have been improved.

 

Yeah, I agree that this is within the realm of what the thread did. It didn't have to to anything - i wouldn't judge you if it had no defined utility to others - but if you must to say it did something, than this is probably accurate.

 

So you're basically withdrawing all of the crap you were spouting earlier?

It is actually you which appeared to me to have withdrew your incessant claim that this thread is enlightening the multitudes of hopeless souls out there trying to be efficient but unknowingly failing by leaving the bones/hides on the floor.

 

You changed your idea of what you believe this thread is doing to - even if this thread doesn't change what they do because what they're already doing is the most efficient thing for them (which as Squab and I have pointed out is indeed what people are doing who leave their bones/hides), it's still nice to know the relevant objective facts that can be obtained. So in that small way I am improving the knowledge of the person who reads this.**

 

Which, if I had to explain what this thread is doing, is probably what I would say.

 

 

 

**

I have corrected that and, regardless of whether this will cause people to stop leaving loot, people's understandings of the sacrifices being made in favour of convenience have been improved.

It is actually you which appeared to have withdrew your incessant claim that this thread is enlightening the multitudes of hopeless souls out there trying to be efficient but unknowingly failing by leaving the bones/hides on the floor.

 

You changed your idea of what you believe this thread is doing to - even if this thread doesn't change what they do because what they're already doing is the most efficient thing for them (which as Squab and I have pointed out is indeed what people are doing who leave their bones/hides), it's still useful to know the objective facts that can be obtained. So in that small way I am improving the knowledge of the person who reads this.**

 

Which, if I had to explain what this thread is doing, is probably what I would say.

 

 

 

**

I have corrected that and, regardless of whether this will cause people to stop leaving loot, people's understandings of the sacrifices being made in favour of convenience have been improved.

This is basically exactly what I already talked about, so...

This is basically exactly what I already talked about, so...

 

yeah, you talked about a lot of it. But you also said this -

 

 

But there are plenty of people out there who don't already know this stuff, and this is for them.

 

giving the impression of the naive multitudes to me. The people who do not know the 11m/h calc, but who leave the d bones/hides, don't need the information. it nice to know? sure, why not. But there is no enlightening that will go on because of the information, no flocks of people switching to picking up bones/hides because they saw this thread.

 

You didn't explicitly imply that though. I perhaps overreacted to that remark last night. Anyway, I am glad we are in basic agreement now.

Mkay, let's try to make sure we avoid the personal insults while getting your points across.

 

Carry on guys.

There's obviously some % of people who don't pick up bones/hides in Kuradel's dungeon on blues because their gold income /hr is enough to justify doing so.

 

There's another % who do so because they are lazy/enjoy playing that way.

 

What no one is talking about, that I can see, is the possibly large % who leave bones/hides on the ground because they are blindly emulating the actions of the >11m hour bone/hide leavers, and not their reasoning. The tendency to think "My friend is really rich and he doesn't pick up bones, so I shouldn't either", is a basic irrational tendency in humans. This covers, I believe, a very large number of people, not only in RS, but in all aspects of life. These are the people that threads like this can help. The general rule, that while it is valuable for a novice in something to observe experts, it's important not to blindly emulate them without thinking it through and finding out how they progressed to where they are, is a pretty useful life lesson in general.

 

Not really a fan of the idiots calling thing, although I can understand wanting to vent some anger on all those people calling people picking up bones and/or hides poor noobs.

Raging in this thread is inefficient.

 

Not if your goal is posting on TIF while simultaneously venting anger!

This basically. Anything can be your goal intrinsically (e.g. you want A for the sake of A alone). Some things can also be your goal as a means to an end (e.g. you want A because A leads to B). If your goal is to be inefficient there are efficient and inefficient ways to go about that (although don't ask me what they are because that's not quantifyable that I know of) which is an interesting paradox.

Raging in this thread is inefficient.

 

Not if your goal is posting on TIF while simultaneously venting anger!

This basically. Anything can be your goal intrinsically (e.g. you want A for the sake of A alone). Some things can also be your goal as a means to an end (e.g. you want A because A leads to B). If your goal is to be inefficient there are efficient and inefficient ways to go about that (although don't ask me what they are because that's not quantifyable that I know of) which is an interesting paradox.

 

Trolling defused.

I hate you both.

Raging in this thread is inefficient.

 

Not if your goal is posting on TIF while simultaneously venting anger!

This basically. Anything can be your goal intrinsically (e.g. you want A for the sake of A alone). Some things can also be your goal as a means to an end (e.g. you want A because A leads to B). If your goal is to be inefficient there are efficient and inefficient ways to go about that (although don't ask me what they are because that's not quantifyable that I know of) which is an interesting paradox.

 

Which is what I never understood about efficiency campaigns. Unless the desired goal is specified otherwise, it is impractical for there to be a "right" way to play in an Online Role Playing Game.

This basically. Anything can be your goal intrinsically (e.g. you want A for the sake of A alone). Some things can also be your goal as a means to an end (e.g. you want A because A leads to B). If your goal is to be inefficient there are efficient and inefficient ways to go about that (although don't ask me what they are because that's not quantifyable that I know of) which is an interesting paradox.

 

Which is what I never understood about efficiency campaigns. Unless the desired goal is specified otherwise, it is impractical for there to be a "right" way to play in an Online Role Playing Game.

Well, ceteris paribus, whatnot.

Well, ceteris paribus, whatnot.

 

Precisely my point. A couple months back, I remember many threads where some folks straight up disregarded any other factor besides tangible reward and objective effort. Yes, their math was correct. What they didn't realize was that some people don't enjoy doing it that way for a number of reasons (I want the personal satisfaction of getting 99 Runecrafting without touching the abyss or ZMI, I want 99 Agility at 3 Combat), which is the entire allure behind RPG's. If said goal is clearly quantifiable, such as 99 Runecrafting as quick or cheap as possible, then it is logical to measure the efficiency of contrasting methods.

 

Time is slayer xp.

 

Therefore slayer xp is money.

 

Untradeable money? That doesn't sound very useful.

 

Slayer xp =/= money

Time is money

Time is slayer xp

Time is fm xp

Time is whatever you make it.

 

???????????????????????????

 

Use time that would otherwise be spent slaying to make money = turning slayer xp into money.

 

LOL THIS IS ROCKET SCIENCE

 

And what the hell is up with this? Lol.

straight up disregarded any other factor

Yes, ceteris paribus. Assume everything else is constant. It's a perfectly legitimate and useful assumption to make.

I'm just talking about the people who argue "Lol, you're illogical if you cut trees that give less xp." There's a difference between assuming constants for the sake of an experiment and disregarding factors to appear infallible.

Yep. It's more efficient to bank the bones and even hides. We all know this. But doing that is boring/prevents reaching the immediate slayer/combat goal.

 

In the perfect world I'd bank the bones, but I'd too lazy to bother doing it, especially when i have a spare 40m in the bank and have no immediate gear improvements to purchase. Again I'll emphasize that i KNOW it would be better even for the long term to pick the bones up, but i find it frustrating and thus stop mid task and end up realistically actually doing less progress in runescape that day compared to if i had just left the bones.

 

Never value efficiency over fun. Never take money/hour vs xp/hour as actual efficiency when human emotions are part of the equation.

Fun is an integral aspect of efficiency. It's just the hardest part to calculate due to its subjectivity, so it's usually left out of the calculations.

 

If you don't find something fun, don't do it.

I always bank the bones and sometimes the hides on blue dragon tasks, and now that I got yak recently I'll always bank the bones and the hides. Ocaisonally I didn't bank them before simply because I was being lazy lol.