The Back Room

[Leiana]

I'll be the judge of that.

 

Favorite comedy on YouTube: Demyx Time

 

Watch Demyx Time! Its funny!

[Nexaduro]

Okay, I have a Pathfinder related question.

 

How the hell do you determine damage from swallow whole for an Eidolon? Bite damage again for the swallow action, and then how do you determine further damage? I'm inclined to think either acid or bludgeoning as is practical for the creature type, equivalent to the bite attack, or at most two damage categories below, plus bite damage bonuses not recieved from stats.

 

Also, would it be reasonable for a Synthesist Summoner's Eidolon shell to be healed by any healing that would affect said Summoner? The rules are ridiculously sketchy, and that doesn't exactly seem like a game-breaker.

[Icuownage]

I've watched

 

Love hina (+ all the specials and OVAs)

bokusatsu tenshi Dokuro-Chan (Season 1 and 2)

Maburaho

Full Metal Alchemist (In englsih though)

Full Metal Alchemist Movie

Part of Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood

30 Episodes of Naruto

250+ Episodes of Bleach

A few episodes of azumanga diaoh

Lucky star

Soul Eater

Pandora Hearts

A few episodes of TTGL

All three seasons of Shakugan No Shana

A few epsidoes of doggy days (or w/e it was called)

A few episodes of Lotte's toy

Star Driver

Two seasons of Zero No Tsukaima and half of season 3

Both seasons of Code Geass

Both seasons of Rosario + Vampire

First season of Kuro[cabbage]suiji, and half of the second

Elfen Lied

Chrome Shelled Regios

Countless random harem animes

A few episodes of high school of the dead

Kore wa zombie desu ka

Madoka

 

And quite a few things as well which I just can't remember the name of or can't remember watching it that well because A) I only watched an episode and then forgot to watch the rest after I went to sleep or B) It was crap

[Nexaduro]

Oh yeah, forgot, watched Soul Eater as well.

 

Also I guess you're not as much of a prude as I am when it comes to anime selections. :P

[Icuownage]

Oh I'm very prude, I just have found many animes that have met my specifications, or I have taken a plunge into an anime I have once thought was bad and realised it isn't so bad (excluding Naruto, that should be removed from existance)

 

Because there are like 1000+ animes out there, and the new season started like a week or two ago.

[Ieyfura]

Icu, if you watched (and thoroughly enjoyed) Elfen Lied. You will LOVE Witchblade :)

[Retech]

Okay, I have a Pathfinder related question.

 

How the hell do you determine damage from swallow whole for an Eidolon? Bite damage again for the swallow action, and then how do you determine further damage? I'm inclined to think either acid or bludgeoning as is practical for the creature type, equivalent to the bite attack, or at most two damage categories below, plus bite damage bonuses not recieved from stats.

 

Also, would it be reasonable for a Synthesist Summoner's Eidolon shell to be healed by any healing that would affect said Summoner? The rules are ridiculously sketchy, and that doesn't exactly seem like a game-breaker.

 

There was a debate about the second thing, and the general consensus was that since the summoner and Eidolon share a hitpoint pool, then the healing only works once. However, since the Eidolon is with you, you could use the various Eidolon healing spells, which are more effective than the equivilant cure spells.

 

On the other hand, the archetype is basically broken for the most part (and GMs hate to see it in PFS play), so it might be simpler to go with another similar thing, like a regular summoner or a druid.

[Nexaduro]

It seems like there are plenty of simple fixes to any problems that might crop up with that archetype. I mean, I haven't seen any issue that takes more than an instant to patch up. Summoner takes feats for Eidolon-only use using Eidolon-granted stats for prerequisites, Eidolon uses Summoner skill levels but doesn't benefit from class bonuses...

 

Okay, there is one thing that doesn't make sense. Wing Buffet is completely broken, which annoys me, but there isn't much to gain from it anyways.

[Retech]

Swallow Whole (Ex)

If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creatures Statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creatures total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attackers mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

 

Format: swallow whole (5d6 acid damage, AC 15, 18 hp); Location: Special Attacks.

[Corvus]

Okay, I have a Pathfinder related question.

 

How the hell do you determine damage from swallow whole for an Eidolon? Bite damage again for the swallow action, and then how do you determine further damage? I'm inclined to think either acid or bludgeoning as is practical for the creature type, equivalent to the bite attack, or at most two damage categories below, plus bite damage bonuses not recieved from stats.

 

Also, would it be reasonable for a Synthesist Summoner's Eidolon shell to be healed by any healing that would affect said Summoner? The rules are ridiculously sketchy, and that doesn't exactly seem like a game-breaker.

 

"Swallowed creatures take damage equal to the eidolons bite damage each round plus 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage"

 

a bit of setup: While not explicitly stated (the intent in the rules is fairly clear), the Synthesist Summoner's Eidolon Shell Does not have its own pool of hitpoints as these are converted into temporary hit dice for the caster.

 

The Synthesist Summoner's Shell cannot be healed by any Standard rule or ability. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand the Concept of general rules and should make sure they read the general rules involved before even deciding to answer a question, as the Shell's hitpoints are Temporary hit points, Which cannot be healed except through the application of the general rule of rules precedence (a more specific rule overrides a general rule, so if there was a spell that specifically heals Temporary hit points provided by a Shell, it would work). To be specific any valid healing spells would only heal damage that the synthesist had taken prior to activating the shell unless the shell would have been reduced to 0 temporary hitpoints (Temporary hit points are seperate from regular hitpoints and are always removed prior to removing regular hitpoints with the exception of the fused link ability)

[Retech]

The question was "FAQed" on the Paizo forums, but the developers did not get back to them on that. I shared the general consensus of the thread, but I believe there hasn't been any official developer word on that.

[Nexaduro]

So, every time the Eidolon is summoned it grants the full temporary HP? The option of using Rejuvenate Eidolon seemed perfectly reasonable as well, and its exclusion is probably an oversight for a rather new class.

 

Retech, that is completely and utterly useless. Just look at any other creature's swallow whole ability, I dare you to find any relationship between it and anything other trait of said creature. :P

 

Wyvren, where did you get your quote for swallow whole from?

[Corvus]

Retech, The general rule of rules Precedence takes effect in this situation, As there is no overriding rule, though due to the rather stupid technicalities using restore eidolon on a synthesist Summoner heals the Summoner's hitpoints (the Eidolon and the summoner are considered one target, so the spell targeting is allowed, its just that the healing is provided to the permenant hitpoints of the summoner) and further technicalities say that the Eidolon is prevented from dieing by temporary hitpoints(but not actually healed). As a whole the Synthesist summoner is not a rule I would ever consider letting a player use or suggest a GM to allow, unless major official reworking is done due to the litany of inconsistancies and unreasonable conclusions that result.

 

So, every time the Eidolon is summoned it grants the full temporary HP? The option of using Rejuvenate Eidolon seemed perfectly reasonable as well, and its exclusion is probably an oversight for a rather new class.

 

Retech, that is completely and utterly useless. Just look at any other creature's swallow whole ability, I dare you to find any relationship between it and anything other trait of said creature. :P

 

Wyvren, where did you get your quote for swallow whole from?

 

The Swallow whole quote is from the Eidolon Swallow whole 3-point evolution rule in the PRD.

[Nexaduro]

Derp, didn't see the each round bit earlier. Also, can't the summoner sacrifice permanent HP to add to the Eidolon's temp HP? It would be a bit difficult mid-battle, but it just means that healing needs an extra step. AND if that is somehow contradicted by the rules... What would be wrong with allowing it?

 

And name a game breaking inconsistency. I don't see why this should be so difficult.

[Retech]

Retech, The general rule of rules Precedence takes effect in this situation, As there is no overriding rule, though due to the rather stupid technicalities using restore eidolon on a synthesist Summoner heals the Summoner's hitpoints (the Eidolon and the summoner are considered one target, so the spell targeting is allowed, its just that the healing is provided to the permenant hitpoints of the summoner) and further technicalities say that the Eidolon is prevented from dieing by temporary hitpoints(but not actually healed). As a whole the Synthesist summoner is not a rule I would ever consider letting a player use or suggest a GM to allow, unless major official reworking is done due to the litany of inconsistancies and unreasonable conclusions that result.

 

So, every time the Eidolon is summoned it grants the full temporary HP? The option of using Rejuvenate Eidolon seemed perfectly reasonable as well, and its exclusion is probably an oversight for a rather new class.

 

Retech, that is completely and utterly useless. Just look at any other creature's swallow whole ability, I dare you to find any relationship between it and anything other trait of said creature. :P

 

Wyvren, where did you get your quote for swallow whole from?

 

The Swallow whole quote is from the Eidolon Swallow whole 3-point evolution rule in the PRD.

 

Yeah, that's the thing. No one has any idea exactly how the wording works or any specifics about it. IIRC, a developer was saying that they would be coming up with errata or clarification soon enough, after they complete their work on ultimate combat.

 

To Nex: If I am not mistaken, that is only when the Eidolon's hitpoints would be reduced below zero.

 

------

 

Just pointing out, but usually when there is an inconsistency and the GM has not responded, it is better to assume that the inconsistency will be ruled against the player character.

 

The Synthesiest is basically asking for a rules battle, so I would not be inclined to be part of that conversation and ensuing argument. It's more of a "ask your GM" kind of deal for the moment.

 

------

 

Also, Synthesiests wearing armor is another possible inconsistency. Eidolons are not usually allowed to wear armor, but it does not specify whether a fused Eidolon-Synthesiest can wear armor, which was also the subject of another thread. :P

[Corvus]

Derp, didn't see the each round bit earlier. Also, can't the summoner sacrifice permanent HP to add to the Eidolon's temp HP? It would be a bit difficult mid-battle, but it just means that healing needs an extra step. AND if that is somehow contradicted by the rules... What would be wrong with allowing it?

 

And name a game breaking inconsistency. I don't see why this should be so difficult.

 

The summoner can only sacrifice permanent HP to prevent the reduction of the Eidolon's HP if it would be dropped to 0 by that source of damage. As a whole the entire Archetype is cloudy in terms of how the rules work, which results in it being an absolute mess requiring GM rulings constantly in order to function which is why I would never allow it or suggest someone else to allow it. Though the worst inconsistancy is that depending on interpretation of the rule the Eidolon can end up effectively having double the hitpoints its actually supposed to have.

[Nexaduro]

Alright... Can we not avoid the issues then by my not wearing armour, and the Eidolon being unable to heal but returning every summon with the full temp HP bonus?

 

You're both assuming I'm going to be a rules lawyer rather than just letting the GM say 'don't bring this up' and accepting that. I'm trying to enjoy, not optimize.

[Retech]

I'll get the rules clarification/errata to you asap when it's released, but if you assume that every inconsistency is ruled against your favor, then when the actual errata comes out, it will only be positive for you.

 

Personally, that's what I would do. The inconsistencies aren't that crippling and you should still be able to make a well-rounded character.

 

----

 

Also, vote in the Ennies and move up Pathfinder products, woooo! Please read the instructions, since the voting is kinda strange.

 

http://www.ennie-awards.com/vote/

[Nexaduro]

Okay, one last question; Is it reasonable to apply both slam and pincers to one set of arms, disallowing simultaneous use? I want pincers for grappling/flavour, while slam would be my Eidolon's simple attack method. I see no reason why one would not be able to slam with pincers quite honestly, so long as the evolution prices are paid.

 

EDIT: Also, I've resigned myself to the possibility that the Synthesist will be barred, and am planning an alt accordingly.

[jasignhagj]

>Come to tavern

>Excited by a new page

>All D&D stuff

>Makes me sad

>Greentext for no apparent reason

 

I guess I could just try to learn how to play these games, but I wouldn't even know where to start.

[Nexaduro]

Hey, I've started already, and I STILL have no idea what's going on. If you want to give it a try, be a Fighter and make sure to scribble stuff down for things like your Armor Class and attack bonuses.

 

Also these might help, or just confuse you more;

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

http://www.trovetokens.com/pathfinder.html

 

EDIT: Posting unfinished character sheet info here in case of computer failure like last time:

[hide]Arann

Male Human Summoner 5 | [Chaotic Neutral]

Description

Age 17

Looks Black hair, Blue eyes

Height/Weight 6'4" tall, 165lbs. (Medium)

Homeland ???

Deity The RNG

Campaign ???

Representing Nexaduro

Strength

13 (+1)

Hit Points

HP 35

Current HP

 

Dexterity

15 (+2)

Constitution

12 (+1)

Intelligence

16 (+3)

Wisdom

10 (+0)

Charisma

16 (+3)

 

Initiative +2 = 2 [Dex]

Action Points (Lifetime) 9

Skills

SKILL Total + Ability Mod. + Ranks + Misc.

Acrobatics* +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Appraise +3 = INT 3+0+0

Bluff +5 = CHA 3+2+0

Climb* +1 = STR 1+0+0

Craft +3 = INT 3+0+0

Craft +3 = INT 3+0+0

Craft +3 = INT 3+0+0

Diplomacy +5 = CHA 3+2+0

Disable Device*† +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Disguise +3 = CHA 3+0+0

Escape Artist* +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Fly* +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Handle Animal† +3 = CHA 3+0+0

Heal +0 = WIS 0+0+0

Intimidate +5 = CHA 3+2+0

K (Arcana)† +3 = INT 3+0+0

K (Dungeoneering)† +3 = INT 3+0+0

K (Engineering)† +3 = INT 3+0+0

K (Geography)† +3 = INT 3+0+0

K (History)† +3 = INT 3+0+0

K (Local)† +3 = INT 3+0+0

K (Nature)† +7 = INT 3+1+3

K (Nobility)† +3 = INT 3+0+0

K (Planes)† +7 = INT 3+1+3

K (Religion)† +7 = INT 3+1+3

Linguistics† +7 = INT 3+1+3

Perception +5 = WIS 0+5+0

Perform +3 = CHA 3+0+0

Perform +3 = CHA 3+0+0

Profession† +8 = WIS 0+5+3

Profession† +0 = WIS 0+0+0

Ride +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Sense Motive +5 = WIS 0+5+0

Sleight of Hand*† +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Spellcraft† +3 = INT 3+0+0

Stealth* +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Survival +0 = WIS 0+0+0

Swim* +1 = STR 1+0+0

Use Magic Device† +11 = CHA 3+5+3

 

 

* Armor Check Penalty 0

† Trained Only

 

Equipment

Quadruped-Base Eidolon - Mountainous Chull

Size: Medium

Speed: 50 ft.

AC: +2 natural armor

Saves: Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad)

Attack: bite (1d8)

Ability Scores: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7

Wis 10, Cha 11

Primary: Evolutions: bite, legs (2)

Secondary Evolutions (10): legs,

 

-6321 GP

 

Self (76 lbs.):

Black Ink Tattoo

Masterwork Hide Armour

Explorer's Outfit

Belt of Giant Strength

Masterwork Backpack

Spell Component Pouch

Heavy Repeating Crossbow (20 ammo cases)

Morningstar

 

2 Heavy Horses (1560 lbs.):

Wagon w/ Light Catapult (Splint Mail)

Pavilion

Barrel

Bedroll (8)

Spider Silk Rope (100 ft.)

Swim Fins

 

Notes

Level 0 Spells:

Acid Splash

Daze

Detect Magic

Light

Mage Hand

Read Magic

 

Level 1 Spells (6):

Enlarge Person

Grease

Magic Fang

Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon

 

Level 2 Spells (4):

Lesser Evolution Surge

Summon Eidolon

Base Speed [ 30 (6 sq.) ]

 

AC [13] = 10 + 1 [MW Padded] +2 [Dex]

Touch AC [12] Flat-Footed [11]

 

Base Attack Bonus +3

Basic Melee Attack +4

Basic Ranged Attack +5

 

Weapon

 

Attack Bonus

 

Critical

Heirloom Heavy Repeating Crossbow +2 19-20/x2

Piercing 120 ft. 100 1d10

Type

 

Range

 

Ammo

 

Damage

 

Weapon

 

Attack Bonus

 

Critical

Morningstar x2

B and P 1d8

Type

 

Range

 

Ammo

 

Damage

 

Weapon

 

Attack Bonus

 

Critical

Light Catapult +1 +2 x2

B 150 ft. 4d6

Type

 

Range

 

Ammo

 

Damage

 

Fortitude Save +2 = 1 [base] +1 [Con]

Reflex Save +3 = 1 [base] +2 [Dex]

Will Save +4 = 4 [base] +0 [Wis]

 

CMB +4 = 3 [bAB] +1 [str] +0

CMD +16 = 3 [bAB] +1 [str] +2 [Dex] +0 + 10

Feats

Deadly Aim

Extra Evolution

 

 

Traits

Armor Expert

Heirloom Weapon

Carrying Capacity

Light Load: 50lbs.

Medium Load: 100lbs.

Heavy Load: 150lbs.

Lift Over Head: 150lbs.

Lift Off Ground: 300lbs.

Push or Drag: 750lbs.

Languages

Common

3 Bonus Languages (Int)

Summoner Spells Per Day

Level 1 4 + 1 [Cha]

Level 2 2 + 1 [Cha]

Summoner Spells Known

Level 0 6

Level 1 4

Level 2 3

Special Abilities

Human

Bonus Feat: One extra feat at 1st level

Skilled: +1 skill rank per level

Bonus Languages: Any (except secret languages)

 

Summoner

Shield Ally

Bond Senses

Cantrips

Eidolon

Life Link

Summon Monster 3

 

 

 

 

Experience Points ???[/hide]

[Corvus]

>Come to tavern

>Excited by a new page

>All D&D stuff

>Makes me sad

>Greentext for no apparent reason

 

I guess I could just try to learn how to play these games, but I wouldn't even know where to start.

 

tl;dr : Just hop in and learn by playing.

 

The general method of learning how to play PnP roleplaying games is generally just to start playing a game with an experienced group using a pregenerated character (made specifically for you by the GM[Game master/Dungeon master/Storyteller/etc. The player who act as the judge of what happens in the game, runs the cast of characters surrounding the other players, and makes the setting where all the actions take place] or another player, or made by the game publisher) in order to learn the basics of how the game works.

 

Side note for the general complaint about not starting a character with a character entirely of their choosing: letting a first time player fully make their own character is one of the worst things you can do for introducing them to the game, as it exponentially increases the barrier to entry. This is a result your average person interested in learning a new game will very much not want to be deadweight for the experienced players, and will tend to think they need to know every last portion of the rules by heart or go through every possible option to make their desired character the most useful character possible (and incidentally not the character they themselves want but what they think everyone else wants them to be). Additionally providing them with a character helps you provide them with characters that are easier to learn, for example: The new player thinks that they want to play a wizard, instead start them for a session or two with a cleric (introduces the concept of preparing spells without dealing with learning spells, the benefit of being able to swap for cure spells on the spot, and being decent in direct combat means that bad choices in spells are only an inconvience and the game is still fun, as opposed to playing a character who cannot contribute anything useful) while they get used to how the game works. Regardless, Introducing an inexperienced player to a game starting with an hour or more of just paperwork is not the right way to go about things.

 

The publishers of many commercial PnP game systems realise that they need to provide a way to get new players into their game system, generally through sample characters and adventures for use, though the specific methods used vary wildly from publisher to publisher. The major issue with the beginner's products for the Dungeons and Dragons type games we tend to run here in the Tavern(Tavern specifically is into the D&D 3.X and Pathfinder type), is that there is a tradition of making them a 'discount' set of everything for a group of totally inexperienced players to just start playing out of the box (D&D does a Red box/basic set with pretty much every edition, and Pathfinder is releasing a similar product in october), though they also do free samples (heavily advertising new products to the Players and GMs) occasionally which require a GM who knows the rules.

 

If you have any specific questions about the game and how it works, feel free to send me a message asking (I do not suggest asking in here, as rules questions tend to turn into discussions about simply making things more powerful.)

[Ieyfura]

To contribute to what Wyvern is saying. My friends used to play PnP DnD, no figurines, anything, just flat out paper and pencil, everything was hand-drawn. (I was impressed by the time he put into it) My first time ever getting into it was when I had a crush on this guy, so I asked what they were doing. They said I wouldn't be interested. I said I was. The DM generated a character for me. I've been into RPing ever since, though I've branched off more into the written aspect of it more than anything. But yes, letting your first character be generated for you is EXTREMELY beneficial in the long run.

[The_Mather1]

I agree with Trol.

 

Though I don't have a problem with doing DnD... at least that's not the issue... my problem is that it makes me want blow my brains out. How it can even be considdered roleplaying is beyond me, it's a children's board game for grown men with mininmal chance of getting laid. Playing it is directly painful, as a modified quote from the scout; it's like I'm watching myself fly through a windshield. Watching it or reading about it is just as bad and discussions about it are like watching the Heisenberg uncertainty principle being used as if a law of physics.

[/rant]

[Ieyfura]

I agree with Trol.

 

Though I don't have a problem with doing DnD... at least that's not the issue... my problem is that it makes me want blow my brains out. How it can even be considdered roleplaying is beyond me, it's a children's board game for grown men with mininmal chance of getting laid. Playing it is directly painful, as a modified quote from the scout; it's like I'm watching myself fly through a windshield. Watching it or reading about it is just as bad and discussions about it are like watching the Heisenberg uncertainty principle being used as if a law of physics.

[/rant]

 

 

Oh, I'll admit, playing straight out of the rulebook is lame as all hell. Our DM just took the basic structure and branched it into his own little thing. He even took the time to do all our math for us. I don't think I could ever sit through a game if there wasn't an actual Role Play factor into it.