The Back Room

[jasignhagj]

Nex isn't a mod anymore? What is this?!?

[archimage_a]

Nex isn't a mod anymore? What is this?!?

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAQNeAMaFdw&feature=related

 

 

Its true, never has the Tavern had such high unemployment, 100% are not employed in Tip It. (Quiet Wyvern I am trying to start a revolution)

As such we should form a union, march on Tripsis' House. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

On the DnD campaign:

Grim has said he isn't running the campaign.

A campaign with Pre-Gen characters would be considerably better...Simply because:

 

Some of us want to abuse the rules in every 'possible' way, and are annoyed at people 'less capable'.

Some of us want to roleplay in a 'believable' way, and are annoyed at people 'powergaming'.

Some of us want to GM in a 'progressive' way, and are annoyed at people 'bogged down in argument'.

 

 

 

I appeal to Grim, to Wyvern, to Ross...Please run a campaign with pre-gen characters.

I appeal to Nex, Retech and everyone else...Please choose one of the pre-gens and even if it isn't brilliant, try to play that character.

I appeal to everyone...Please discuss your character with the Mod...But don't do it in the middle of a session, and try to do it via PM or Internet Messanger so the massive arguments don't annoy people.

I appeal to everyone...Do not use the rules as a weapon against the GM. If the GM is intolerable then walk away, don't be a game wrecker.

 

I also suggest that the GM has a three strike system and THEN kick and 1 session ban. If you turn up again that session or the next session (even just to watch) then you are banned for 2 more session and kicked from the current session. If you turn up again then you are banned from the game fully.

 

 

I would suggest, for the pregens:

2 of each character type (Wizard, Rogue, etcetera)

Spell books are pre-generated (aka they know only those spells and have to buy more)

Weapons are pre-generated (Sword, Slightly Magic Stick, etcetera)

Armour is pre-generated (Wizards in robes, Rogues in light armour, etcetera)

Other items are pre-generated (scrolls, food, etcetera)

Remaining money is always set at 100 Gold

Rogue Talents/Domains/ectetera is pre-generated.

 

Alignment, Diety, Name and Traits (remembering Gold is Capped at 100, regardless) can be chosen by the player.

[Retech]

Yeah, somehow I doubt that a character would be pre-generated that would be interesting at all. Usually pregenerated characters are extremely generic (wizard with fireball, cleric with lots of buffs, yippee), and if I were to ask the GM to generate a specific kind of character, I don't think that would be done (more workload + not really going with the whole pregenerated thing anymore).

 

For example, say I wanted to play a non-charismatic cleric that was wise, but had difficulty in connecting spiritually with their god. What kind of pregenerated cleric would have a low charisma score?

 

The main reason why I like Pathfinder (and 3.5 by extension) is that there are so many varieties of characters that you can make that don't fit the mold, but aren't horrendously underpowered as to be unplayable. If there were pregenerated characters, I would rather just move on to 4E or something.

 

Also, if anyone is interested, there are usually many games running that you can choose on the Paizo boards: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/connection

[archimage_a]

I find it quite gratifying to have been proved right, Taverners have no interest in give and take.

 

Like a leech farm.

[Retech]

I find it quite gratifying to have been proved right, Taverners have no interest in give and take.

 

Like a leech farm.

 

I think it's unfair to say that. I have no interest in give and take, but that does not mean that other people are not interested. I am only stating my opinion.

 

I am not as desperate to play in games as I was before now that I've found the Paizo community, but I still want to play with the Tavern. I wouldn't do it if it was a slog using a pre-generated character, especially since I probably wouldn't connect with it. A normal Pathfinder game does not have pregenerated characters, so I'm not seeing where all this give and take stuff is coming from. I just want to play a normal pathfinder game.

[archimage_a]

Maybe.

We will see if anyone is actually willing to get off their high horse and be a peasant for the sake of enjoyment.

[Retech]

Maybe.

We will see if anyone is actually willing to get off their high horse and be a peasant for the sake of enjoyment.

 

It's interesting that you characterize it in that way, but if we are using your metaphor, why not help everyone get on a horse?

[Earth]

If I ahd the time to do it I'd be fine with playing a PreGenerated Character. Hell I'm HORRIBLE at making my own anyways, so it's better if I just use the Pre-Gen. But I don't have time. Work and stuff.

[archimage_a]

Then you would use optimised pre-gens...

 

I am just saying 'Why don't we all get on the same page', rather than try to force powergamers into underpowers games, and underpowerers into powergamers games.

 

And I really don't care any more.

Every idea thus far has been ripped apart because people want to play their own game. Ergo, leech farm.

[Earth]

I have an idea.. Retech, would you please not try to overoptimize a character if you DO get the chance to make one? Some is alright, but if you keep trying to min-max then people will not enjoy playing with you.

Edit: honestly I think we need to rethink a game, have input from everyone in the taver. Figure out a game that combines everyones interests, but doesn't allow people to screw it up badly. sorta like the Skaian model. (Name I made up right now for the Homestuck game Sburb game.. Thing...)

[Retech]

Then you would use optimised pre-gens...

 

I am just saying 'Why don't we all get on the same page', rather than try to force powergamers into underpowers games, and underpowerers into powergamers games.

 

And I really don't care any more.

Every idea thus far has been ripped apart because people want to play their own game. Ergo, leech farm.

 

That's what I meant in the first place though. If you want to make your own character, then you can. And if you want help, you can also get that. Everyone is on the same power level, and everyone has input on their character.

 

It's like when I helped Earth with his character. He told me what he wanted, I drafted a statblock, he made critiques, and we worked though it together. The only difference would be that there would be someone that knows how to make a monk, and it would end up better than it did.

 

Edit: Barring fighter v Wizard, but relative to class strengths, on the same power level

[archimage_a]

Then Retech...Run a game, help people and make the game happen.

 

I am trying to deal with the fact that the GMs we have at the moment don't want to create adventures for your optimised hoard.

 

 

At the moment you are acting like Hex, demanding a game that suits you(and others) but doesn't suit the GM in any way, shape and/or form.

And, unsurprisingly, there are no GMs in the Tavern to run that game.

 

And the GMs are acting like me, demanding a game that suits them(and others) but doesn't suit Hex in any way, shape and/or form.

And, unsuprisingly, Hex doesn't want to play that game.

 

 

So either:

GMs like Wyvern, Ross and Grim need to get off their high horse about underpowered gameplay and just run a powergamers game.

Or

The players, like you, Nex and Hex need to get of your high horse about powergamers gameplay and just play an underpowered game.

 

 

To me it really doesn't matter which just as long as one side does some give and take, rather than both sides just taking.

 

 

And the easiest way for that to happen is that the GM or one of the players creates a bunch of Pre-Gens and says 'Pick one of these to play'.

[Icuownage]

I'd just like people to play characters that make sense.

[Nexaduro]

Wait, how am I a powergamer?

 

To be quite honest, I'd love to play with pre-gens. You don't even know how much time I waste trying to make a character I am happy with.

 

I'd prefer a summoner pre-gen, by virtue of wanting a Giant Crab Eidolon, but I can make sacrifices. :rolleyes:

 

But yeah. Whatever gets us into a Pathfinder game together I'll do.

[Retech]

Then Retech...Run a game, help people and make the game happen.

 

I am trying to deal with the fact that the GMs we have at the moment don't want to create adventures for your optimised hoard.

 

 

At the moment you are acting like Hex, demanding a game that suits you(and others) but doesn't suit the GM in any way, shape and/or form.

And, unsurprisingly, there are no GMs in the Tavern to run that game.

 

And the GMs are acting like me, demanding a game that suits them(and others) but doesn't suit Hex in any way, shape and/or form.

And, unsuprisingly, Hex doesn't want to play that game.

 

 

So either:

GMs like Wyvern, Ross and Grim need to get off their high horse about underpowered gameplay and just run a powergamers game.

Or

The players, like you, Nex and Hex need to get of your high horse about powergamers gameplay and just play an underpowered game.

 

 

To me it really doesn't matter which just as long as one side does some give and take, rather than both sides just taking.

 

 

And the easiest way for that to happen is that the GM or one of the players creates a bunch of Pre-Gens and says 'Pick one of these to play'.

 

I am not "demanding" a game. Anyone can create whatever game that they choose to GM. Whatever you choose to make is up to you, and whatever I choose to play is up to me. I've already said what I prefer to play, but it doesn't mean that you have to satisfy what I want to play when you make your game.

 

A tavern game doesn't have to satisfy everybody and it doesn't have to include everyone. My rejection of pre-generated characters does not mean that you or one of the other GMs couldn't set up a game with pre-generated characters.

 

I wouldn't play a game with pre-generated characters, but it doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other people that are eager to play such a game.

 

---

 

And clarification. Pregenerated is not synonomous to underpowered, as free-choice is to optimised. What people seem to be forgetting is that building an effective character is not the same as abandoning roleplaying. Adventures are designed for at least somewhat effective characters in the first place.

[archimage_a]

And clarification. Pregenerated is not synonomous to underpowered, as free-choice is to optimised. What people seem to be forgetting is that building an effective character is not the same as abandoning roleplaying. Adventures are designed for at least somewhat effective characters in the first place.

 

I believe I said...multiple times...that you could have optimised Pre-Gens.

 

Pre-Gens are not about forcing people to play a certain way...They are about making sure that people who don't have any idea what they are doing are not massively disavantaged against people who have spent a few weeks memorising the rulebook.

 

And I am not saying Pre-Gening makes roleplaying easier...Or 'effective' characters make roleplaying harder...That ultimately relies on the people themselves.

 

And adventures are designed for groups, to be carried out by a GM.

If that GM has a ridiculously over/underpowered adventure relative to the group then they are not a good GM for the group.

 

I am not "demanding" a game.

Why are you talking then?

You aren't offering anything.

You aren't demanding anything.

You are just spewing words pointlessly, with no actual objective other than to say you aren't going to play unless everyone surrenders to your view.

Hence, on this subject, you are Hex.

 

 

I mean, you have absolutely no reason to post...You aren't going to play the game suggested, yet you are going to moan about it, and moan when/if we play it...

Tell me, what are you hoping to accomplish by posting in responce to any of this, beyond 'It doesn't work for me'...and really, thats a view you could keep to yourself.

 

I wouldn't play a game with pre-generated characters,

I am aware of this.

I am also aware that Grim, Ross and Wyvern aren't going to get off of their high horses, either.

 

 

 

Ergo, nothing will happen because no one is willing to give any ground.

 

 

 

 

This whole discussion reminds me of Hegemony Tech Trees:

Wouldn't it be better if we could make it up as we go along?

If you can't be bothered to sift through eight pages of crap per day then you shouldn't be playing.

If you know what you are doing then you should get a bonus in all research.

[Retech]

1. That's why I said that people who didn't spend time memorising the rulebook could ask the people who did to help build them a character, which is not a pregen. It could even be like:

 

Player A: Hey Homie!

Player B: Sup dawg

Player A: Hey, I want a *insert race + random class* that can *ability X, Y, Z*

Player B: Yeah, we can make that work. Why not try a *insert classes here* of the *archetype*?

Player A: How about *ability Z*?

Player B: Oh yeah, I'm not sure you can do that with the class you chose, but if you multiclass into *insert class*, then you could probably do that with *insert feat*

Player A: Sounds cool

Player B: Chill with ya lateeeer

 

I don't see any imbalance here.

 

 

 

2. Like you do all the time? I was making a critique of your suggestions, which is what people generally do when one posts something in the back room.

3. I think you're mischaracterizing their positions. I believe it was to make reasonable characters, not pregens. (At least, if I remember from the last time we brought this up).

[The_Mather1]

Edit: honestly I think we need to rethink a game, have input from everyone in the taver. Figure out a game that combines everyones interests, but doesn't allow people to screw it up badly. sorta like the Skaian model. (Name I made up right now for the Homestuck game Sburb game.. Thing...)

This. :thumbup:

[Corvus]

I have no desire to act as a Judge over a game, as I do not enjoy doing it. If The Tavern players decide that they instead want someone to play the role of a Game Master, a person who runs the game rather than merely presiding over it, then I would consider doing so. I would be adverse to Pathfinder, but other games would be fine.

[Grim_]

Hell this whole discussion is one of the reasons why I seriously prefer FATE based games. Retech, you talk about customization in Pathfinder/3.X, but with a bit of creativity you can make damned near any type of character under the sun simply by changing your aspects a bit.

 

In FATE you have four categories of things that are important to your character and they are:

 

Refresh: You have a number of points that can be spent on either stunts or powers. These also can be used to get automatic FATE points at the start of every session. Your refresh may not drop below one.

 

Stunts/powers: These allow for bonuses in regards to one type of skill or using one skill instead of another in certain situations (in the case of stunts) or allow for powers (like spellcasting, supernatural strength, shapeshift, etc.)

 

Skills: Skills cover everything from combat (guns, weapons, fists, might), to social encounters (discipline, presence, rapport, deceit), to magic (your discipline, lore and conviction) and everything else under the sun (investigation, burglary, driving, etc.)

 

Aspects: Your aspects are what makes your character your character. You have a set number of them (in most systems at least) and they reflect who your character is. Rather than saying my character Juan the wizard has contacts and resources 4 so he should be able to call upon those gangsters for help, you would say my character has the aspect "In roads with every gangster in the city" and I'm going to pay a FATE point to invoke it. You can invoke your aspects at the cost of a FATE point to gain a +2 bonus on a roll (this doesn't seem like much, but keep in mind that the maximum bonus you can get with the dice used is +4 off of your skill, and that's highly unlikely), or to get a reroll. Your aspects may also be compelled by the GM (or yourself) to make you do something in keeping with the aspect (Like having Juan be unable to deny knowing a gangster that committed murder) and if you accept the compel you gain FATE point. You may also spend a FATE point to resist the compel if you so desire. Players can also invoke aspects that are not of their character (like say an NPC has the aspect "quick to anger" you could spend a FATE point gain a +2 bonus at an intimidation test and piss him off at you) or on the area itself (like invoking the aspect "flickering shadows" to gain a +2 bonus on a stealth roll).

 

That is the gist of the system.

[Retech]

I was referring to it in comparison to pregenerated, not FATE. :P

 

But that's basically the whole system right there? Is the main difference that it is more GM-Driven as a system?

[Grim_]

It's most of the system. There's generally a list of skills/powers/stunts (though stunts/powers can be homebrewed) and you can do a couple more things with aspects that I didn't fully cover. The magic system that I'm familiar with is also slightly more complex, but that's the gist of the system. It's not so much GM driven as collaborative and that will depend upon the GM in question's style.

[a_bert]

hey im back

[Ieyfura]

hey im back

 

Welcome Back! :P

[Retech]

It's most of the system. There's generally a list of skills/powers/stunts (though stunts/powers can be homebrewed) and you can do a couple more things with aspects that I didn't fully cover. The magic system that I'm familiar with is also slightly more complex, but that's the gist of the system. It's not so much GM driven as collaborative and that will depend upon the GM in question's style.

 

Would you happen to have a link with it? It seems simple enough.