Did the same happen with your education?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, as said... The molecule/particle which exploded, thus the Big Bang theory could've formed out of other smaller particles. This debate could consist of "Well, how did that get there?" C'mon, we've can come up with better than that. Explain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Mitch-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ill jump in on this and say what i say in all these debates, this is just that something better you are looking for (imo).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the big bang that happened billions of years ago or whatever isnt the start of the universe, it was just a start of this stage. there has been an infinite amount of big bangs, each followed by a big crunch. there will be an infinite amount of big bangs in the future, but first we have to crunch again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to look on a time line:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

a big bang happens immediatly after a big crunch, the entire universe comes to one place just one plank length wide (10^-33 meters), once it reaches that length it bangs. it has been doing this forever, and will continue forever. there is no beginning, there is no end.

there has been an infinite amount of big bangs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aah, so an infinite amount of time has passed before this moment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think so. That's logically, scientifically, and mathematically ludicrous.

 

there has been an infinite amount of big bangs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aah, so an infinite amount of time has passed before this moment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think so. That's logically, scientifically, and mathematically ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think so. It makes more sense to me, and seemingly sounds more scientifically accurate that time has existed forever and will exist forever. Simply because we haven't the mental capacity to truly grasp infinity doesn't mean it's ludicrous.

 

there has been an infinite amount of big bangs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aah, so an infinite amount of time has passed before this moment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think so. That's logically, scientifically, and mathematically ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

um, explain how it is any of those? how can time not pass? if time is in fact infinite, its not infinite just into the future, its just as infinite into the past.

 

 

there has been an infinite amount of big bangs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aah, so an infinite amount of time has passed before this moment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think so. That's logically, scientifically, and mathematically ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

um, explain how it is any of those? how can time not pass? if time is in fact infinite, its not infinite just into the future, its just as infinite into the past.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suggest you take time to think about infinites and the absurdities that are created from them. I don't want to spoonfeed logic to you.

I believe the Big Bang and Evolution are some of the best proofs for God ever devised.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand statements like these; they are one of the biggest appeals to ignorance one can make. You can't mix the natural with the supernatural, since the supernatural exist outside the realm of the natural. It's like saying ghosts cause cancer or unicorns make computers work, however we do know what causes cancer and how computers work and they don't involve ghosts or unicorns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There was once a time when we didn't know how computers worked or what caused cancer so would it be fair to say at the time that god did it? Just because we discover something new and are developing an understanding to how it works doesn't mean that we will never find a solution to the new discovery. What you proposed is a god of the gaps argument; we don't understand something right now so god is there as an answer for us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know of too many scientific problems that are unsolvable, it would probably be a first. What makes you so sure that it is unsolvable and that the supernatural needs to step in? Not to be a flame or anything, IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m genuinely interested in why you came to your conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fun Fact: At one time people believed that poverty caused disease. Why not just say god did it, pack up our bags and go drink coffee, if we had done so we would have never reaped the benefits of modern day medicine.

I suggest you take time to think about infinites and the absurdities that are created from them. I don't want to spoonfeed logic to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

haha :lol: someone needs to take a calculus class and learn about infinity.

 

 

 

I suggest you take time to think about infinites and the absurdities that are created from them. I don't want to spoonfeed logic to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand 0/nothing/etc. is a pretty absurd idea (since there is always something in the universe, even space has the occasional atom or two), so how would you consider the other creation idea (god created the universe from nothing) to be valid. It would appear one is as bad as the other, so now we are back to square one.

I believe God created the world. As for the old earth vs. new earth theory's, I don't really hold to one of the other. Evolution I feel, has never happened. Don't quote me because im not in the mood to get in an arguement.

 

 

 

I suggest you take time to think about infinites and the absurdities that are created from them. I don't want to spoonfeed logic to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, simply because you do not understand something, doesn't mean it's absurd. And even if it was absurd, which I could see arguments for, doesn't mean it can't be logical and factual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bush and his administration is absurd. Does that mean it/they don't exist? Unfortunately, no.

I believe in the Big Bang...as in God said "Bang!" and it happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But seriously. I am a Creationist. As for if God made the world in billions of years or 7 days, I can't tell you. After all, that account of the Earth's history was written by God and what, pray tell, is a day to God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe in the theory of micro-evolution (it grants much more to God than Thuxleyism ever will). It explains why all people are the same, yet look different.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not believe in natural selection. There are creatures in this world smaller than a quarter that are so complex that time never could have created them. If you look at the intricacies of the human body, you will never doubt God's wonderful design.

I believe in the Big Bang...as in God said "Bang!" and it happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if god made the universe, who made god?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not believe in natural selection. There are creatures in this world smaller than a quarter that are so complex that time never could have created them.

 

 

 

Natural selection has been actively observed over only a handful of generations. Given the age of the universe, and the rapid rate at which such small creatures move through generations, natural selection easily accounts for their complexity. At any rate, whether or not natural selection occurs or not has absolutely nothing to do with the formation of the universe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you look at the intricacies of the human body, you will never doubt God's wonderful design.

 

 

 

And what about all the faults, imperfections and redundancies present in the human body? What do they say about God's winderful design?

I say Big Bang all the way. But really, who cares how the universe was created. Its there, why question it? Do people really have that hard of a time with the concept of things just... being there?

The Earth was originally a giant piece of wood. Upon this piece of wood, happened to be some water. This made it slightly damp and in perfect condition for fungus. A rather large piece of fungus began to cover the piece of wood and eventually, it fell apart. The fungus floated off and the water gathered into the ridges and crevices that were formed within the piece of fungus. This created rivers and seas. The process of rainfall began (evaporation, precipitation, etc.) and created the perfect conditions for plants. Some magic seeds fell from the sky and began to grow into giant trees that each bore its own fruit. Every fruit broke open and out climbed an animal. And that, as they say, is that. I'd be atheist if it wasn't for this amazing

 

 

 

theory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where do you get the liquid metal flowing in our Core?

 

Bush and his administration is absurd. Does that mean it/they don't exist? Unfortunately, no.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unnecessary.

 

 

 

Automatic loss for you.

 

I believe in the Big Bang...as in God said "Bang!" and it happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if god made the universe, who made god?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"From nothing, comes nothing." Something must be eternally existant. There are really only two options - the natural world, or the supernatural world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you look at the intricacies of the human body, you will never doubt God's wonderful design.

 

 

 

And what about all the faults, imperfections and redundancies present in the human body? What do they say about God's winderful design?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They say that humans sinned, thereby corrupting themselves. Because we turned away from perfection, we now have imperfections in our morality, our bodies, our minds, and everything else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"From nothing, comes nothing." Something must be eternally existant. There are really only two options - the natural world, or the supernatural world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And who's to say the universe just dosent eternally exist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"From nothing, comes nothing." Something must be eternally existant. There are really only two options - the natural world, or the supernatural world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And who's to say the universe just dosent eternally exist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The natural world means the universe, so I said one of the two choices is that the universe is eternally existant. The other is that something supernatural is eternally existant.

Once again, simply because you do not understand something, doesn't mean it's absurd. And even if it was absurd, which I could see arguments for, doesn't mean it can't be logical and factual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bush and his administration is absurd. Does that mean it/they don't exist? Unfortunately, no.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're using a false analogy. Bush and his administration might be absurd in your opinion, but the idea that they exist is not absurd. The idea that an actual infinite can exist, is absurd, especially when talking about time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think about it - if an infinite amount of moments had to have passed before this - then this moment could never have to pass, because each moment (including this, and every moment after this) would just become part of that infinite amount of time. Therefore an infinite amount of time can never pass, because you can always add one more moment to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

haha :lol: someone needs to take a calculus class and learn about infinity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've taken calculus and passed already. Doesn't it seem odd to you that infinity in calculus is a theoretical number, and that an actual infinite can never be produced?.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Infinites cannot exist in actuality.

"From nothing, comes nothing." Something must be eternally existant. There are really only two options - the natural world, or the supernatural world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed. There is little evidence, aside from theory, to support the big bang. However there is even less evidence to support the existence of a divine creator. I find it strange that believers in a creator often use the fact that the evidence supporting the big bang theory is limited and inconclusive as somehow being "proof" of the existence of a god.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They say that humans sinned, thereby corrupting themselves. Because we turned away from perfection, we now have imperfections in our morality, our bodies, our minds, and everything else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which brings us to an interesting paradox. Most theists believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god. A god that planned the universe out in minute detail and who remains aware of all that it contains. Any such being would undoubtedly be fully aware of all the decisions that each of us will make during the course of our lives and the consequences those decisions will have. Leading to a very deterministic point of view.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My problem with this line of thinking is that the notion of an all-knowing deity naturally precludes anything other than a determinist theology. And a determinist theology cannot account for the notions of free will and sin. Or at least under a determinist theology either free will cannot exist or 'sin' is planned and accounted for by god from the outset.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So while I can acknowledge that there may have been a supernatural 'beginning' to the universe as we know it, the idea of an interventionist deity doesn't stand up to any sort of rigorous scrutiny.

 

 

 

 

sonicwave42 wrote:

 

 

 

Ape wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 'Universe' was packed into something the size of a molecule. It was incredibly dense. It then expanded. Then exploded. Supposedly, everything that came out of that is somewhere in our Universe. They say that the Universe is still going outwards from this great explosion. Now they are concerned about the Universe ending, then contracting, like and elastic band, back in on itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If that actually happened, I wonder why it exploded...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keep wonderin'. It's taken scientists years and they still haven't worked it out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, they have.

 

 

 

The Universe was initially a huge thingy of energy. The energy was compressed into something smaller than a atom. Then Time/Space began as the energy singularity exploded, then turned into matter and anti-matter.

 

 

 

As the result of the explosion the "walls" of the universe are still expanding(This has actually been proven by the Hubble Space Telescope). Sooner or later, some astro-physists believe that the universe will colapse back in on itself as the strain of the mass grows too large for the "walls" of the universe to hold. However even if they add in vast amounts of Dark Matter the amount of it goes nowhere near enough to collapse our universe.

 

 

 

The "end" of our Universe will most likely come when all the matter in the universe meets the anti-matter. When this happens the matter and anti-matter cancel eachother out and produce massive amounts of energy. This energy will most likely result in the creation of another big-bang.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where the energy came from or why it compressed is a mystery. Many claim this as the proof of Gods existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was reading a small article on dark matter a few weeks ago.. and I agreed with what it had to say, which was basically that dark matter doesn't exist. The only reason scientists theorize darkmatter is because supposedly things don't fit into the equations we have, the author of the article surmised that our equations were simply wrong, and it makes more sense to just rewrite the equations. Make a square hole. Don't pound a square peg into a round one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then how do you explain the gravitic anomalies that we keep recording around certain quasars and black holes?

 

 

 

And for the record... Dark matter was not contrived because some equations did not fall-out clean. I think you are referring to the theory that the Universe will collapse back in on itself because of the "Weight" of all the mass on the "Walls". However when put into equation the amount of mass neeed to collapse the "Walls" of the Universe was actually quite larger than the actually amount of recorded mass in our universe. Therefore to explain this lack of mass the astro-physists tried to put a significant amount of Dark Matter into the equation. However even then, there wasn't enough.

 

 

 

However Dark Matter was first proposed to explain the gravitic anomalies not the lack of mass.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess I'm not farmiliar with the gravitic anomolies.. could you explain them, or provide links to readings on the subject?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re-reading the article, the equation(s) are those of gravitational pull, that galaxies don't have enough mass to hold themselves together in the way that they do, and that they should be falling apart.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dunno, I obviously am not extremely knowledgeable on the subject... so, let me know if I'm just spouting crap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(none of the above was intended to be rude or otherwise insulting)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The gravitic anomalus that I am speaking of are stars that are not acting the way they should. They are moving (Waving actually) towards an area of space that has less mass than another direction. The only explanation for this is that a "Unseen" mass/gravity is pulling on the stars.

 

 

 

As for the Galaxy thingy? I havn't heard of it.

 

 

 

The only thing galaxy related to Dark Matter would be the Galactic Rotational Problem. And guess what? It is EVIDENCE that Dark Matter EXISTS.

 

 

 

Take a look at this. I got it off of Wikipedia.

 

 

 

Galactic rotation

 

 

 

Much of the evidence for dark matter comes from the study of the motions of galaxies. Many of these appear to be fairly uniform, so by the virial theorem the total kinetic energy should be half the total gravitational binding energy of the galaxies. Experimentally, however, the total kinetic energy is found to be much greater: in particular, stars far from the center of galaxies have much higher velocities than predicted by the virial theorem. Galactic rotation curves, which illustrate the velocity of rotation versus the distance from the galactic center, cannot be explained by only the visible matter. Assuming that the visible material makes up only a small part of the cluster is the most straightforward way of accounting for this. Galaxies show signs of being composed largely of a roughly spherical halo of dark matter with the visible matter concentrated in a disc at the center. Low surface brightness dwarf galaxies are important sources of information for studying dark matter, as they have an uncommonly low ratio of visible matter to dark matter, and have few bright stars at the center which impair observations of the rotation curve of outlying stars.

 

 

 

This SUPPORTS the Dark Matter Theory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: I am not trying to be scathing in any manner. The capitals are merely there to put emphasis on certain words.

 

Bush and his administration is absurd. Does that mean it/they don't exist? Unfortunately, no.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unnecessary.

 

 

 

Automatic loss for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aw c'mon.. you don't agree that he's absurd? :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, simply because you do not understand something, doesn't mean it's absurd. And even if it was absurd, which I could see arguments for, doesn't mean it can't be logical and factual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bush and his administration is absurd. Does that mean it/they don't exist? Unfortunately, no.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're using a false analogy. Bush and his administration might be absurd in your opinion, but the idea that they exist is not absurd. The idea that an actual infinite can exist, is absurd, especially when talking about time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think about it - if an infinite amount of moments had to have passed before this - then this moment could never have to pass, because each moment (including this, and every moment after this) would just become part of that infinite amount of time. Therefore an infinite amount of time can never pass, because you can always add one more moment to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how the analogy is false.. You basically said that infinity can't exist because it's absurd. But now you've got actual reasoning, so..

 

 

 

Though I don't agree with your logic, nor really even see where it's going..

 

 

 

Are you saying that time can't be infinite because there will always be other moments? That doesn't really work, because the added moments just add into infinity. You're trying to assign a value to infinity, which isn't possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess I'm still just not seeing your logic...

 

Did the same happen with your education?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, as said... The molecule/particle which exploded, thus the Big Bang theory could've formed out of other smaller particles. This debate could consist of "Well, how did that get there?" C'mon, we've can come up with better than that. Explain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Mitch-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ill jump in on this and say what i say in all these debates, this is just that something better you are looking for (imo).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the big bang that happened billions of years ago or whatever isnt the start of the universe, it was just a start of this stage. there has been an infinite amount of big bangs, each followed by a big crunch. there will be an infinite amount of big bangs in the future, but first we have to crunch again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to look on a time line:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

a big bang happens immediatly after a big crunch, the entire universe comes to one place just one plank length wide (10^-33 meters), once it reaches that length it bangs. it has been doing this forever, and will continue forever. there is no beginning, there is no end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You left out the most important part...

 

 

 

Time/Space also restarts.

 

 

 

Time Zero is the moment of the Big Bang. Nothing exists "Before" it as we are talking about Time itself re-starting.

 

The Earth was originally a giant piece of wood. Upon this piece of wood, happened to be some water. This made it slightly damp and in perfect condition for fungus. A rather large piece of fungus began to cover the piece of wood and eventually, it fell apart. The fungus floated off and the water gathered into the ridges and crevices that were formed within the piece of fungus. This created rivers and seas. The process of rainfall began (evaporation, precipitation, etc.) and created the perfect conditions for plants. Some magic seeds fell from the sky and began to grow into giant trees that each bore its own fruit. Every fruit broke open and out climbed an animal. And that, as they say, is that. I'd be atheist if it wasn't for this amazing

 

 

 

theory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where do you get the liquid metal flowing in our Core?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually... The metals in the core of the Earth are solid. They are under so much pressure that even at that temperature, they do not melt.

 

 

 

Think about it - if an infinite amount of moments had to have passed before this - then this moment could never have to pass, because each moment (including this, and every moment after this) would just become part of that infinite amount of time. Therefore an infinite amount of time can never pass, because you can always add one more moment to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've taken calculus and passed already. Doesn't it seem odd to you that infinity in calculus is a theoretical number, and that an actual infinite can never be produced?.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Infinites cannot exist in actuality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well then by your definition the number pi doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t exist because you can always add one more decimal to it, however it does have its place on the real number line (like all other irrational numbers do).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Integration involves summing of infinitesimally small portions of a function, yet it can add to give real and natural answers. How about limits that approach infinity or infinite series, they too are important concepts in calculus which talk about approaching an infinite endpoint.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Although infinity is undefined, the process to get to infinity is indeed defined. 1 second + 1 second + 1 second just because it is some godly number means it doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t exist.

 

 

 

For example you can add 2^1+2^2+2^3+2^4... however the more terms you add, the more it approaches infinity. After about 1000 terms it reaches somewhere around 10^304 and cant be defined under by computers (lack of memory). Very large numbers are only restricted to the space that they can be represented.