J35u5_M4 Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Ever since the EoC started I always wondered, how is the damage calculated? Like... Does the speed of weapons affect the damage of abilities? Because someone told me that the faster the weapon, the bigger the damage multiplier it adds, making all drygore weapons equally strong (since mace has less damage but is faster than long/rapier), just wanted to know if this is true, and if someone knows how does (if at all) speed affect the damage done by using abilities, or regular attacks Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sy_Accursed Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 I can't say for abilities but for basic attacks speed is one of the factors used to balance DPS.So within a given tier you get likeSlow + High DamageAvg + Avg DamageFast + Low DamageThe damage rating (dictating what it can do per hit) is balanced against the speed (how often it hits) so that the DPS is equal.Using unrealistic examples for simplicity sake:A rapier might do 100 damage and have a 1 second attack speed - Therefore 100 DPSA sword of the same tier might then have 200 damage and a 2 second attack speed - So once more 100 DPSA mace would then have 400 damage and a 4 second attack speed - So once again 100 DPS. Accuracy does come in too to make a three way equation, but it follows the same essence where speed, damage and accuracy are all related to each other to keep the DPS equal across the tier. Eg going back to the above loose simplified examples:Rapier - 155 Damage, 1 second attack, 65% accuracy - 155 in 1 second gives 155, but accuracy means you do 155*0.65 for 100 DPSSword - 200 damage, 2 second, 100% accuracy - equates to 100 DPSMace - 800 damage, 4 seconds 50% accuracy - 800 in 4 would be 200 in 1, but 200*0.5 for accuracy gives 100 DPS again. I admit I got no idea how the accuracy numbers in-game translate too actually accuracy % exactly, but this is the principle behind them. Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills :: Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA RewardsDragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambler Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 All weapons (ability-wise) have speed rounded with damage, this is why drygore mace deals same damage as drygore longsword with abilities.Off-hands are rounded too, but using drygore mace and offhand longsword is NOT better than off-hand mace, people don't seem to notice that.This is also why Excalibur's so good at the moment, it has fastest speed, but the damage of a fast weapon. ^^My blog of EoC PvM, lols and Therapy.^^My livestream- Currently: Offline :(Offical Harpy Therapist of the Mad[hide=Lewtations]Barrows drops: Dharok's helm x2, Guthan's helm, Ahrim's top, Hood and skirt, Torag's hammers, Karils skirt, Karil's top, Torag's helm, Verac's skirt, Verac's Flail, Dharok's Platebody.Dag kings drops: Lost count! :wall:4k+ Glacors, 7 Ragefires, 4 Steadfasts, 4 Glaivens, 400+ shards![/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Your 4-tick weapons deal 100% of their listed damage on abilities.Your 5-tick weapons deal 80% damage.Your 6-tick weapons deal 66% damage. Jagex generally confuse '% weapon damage' and '% autoattack damage over a fixed amount of time'. They mean the same thing. E.g. Assault description says: 'dealing damage equal to 219% of 6 seconds worth of autoattack damage over 6 seconds'. What it means is that assault hits four times in 8 ticks, each hit being 219% of 4 ticks worth of autoattack damage (4/4, 4/5 and 4/6 of listed damage). Rapid fire description says: 'dealing 94% of weapon damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds. What it means is that rapid fire hits 8 (I think) times over 8 ticks, each hit being 94% of 4 ticks worth of autoattack damage. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J35u5_M4 Posted April 21, 2013 Author Share Posted April 21, 2013 So, auto attack damage is the same as weapon damage?. Also, to Sy; I'm assuming you multiply the damage by the % of accuracy because it tells you how often it'll actually hit, like 800 dmg every 4 seconds, with 50% accuracy, it'll end up being 100 dmg per second on the long run, because around half of those hits should be missed. So, that answers the question using auto attack, but what if we use abilities? Reading what Ambler said, it seems that there is indeed a multiplier that the speed of weapon gives, so all weapons of the same tier give the same damage, so off hand maces would end up being exactly the same as longswords and rapiers (not taking in count the monster's weakness). Also Excalibur doesn't have the attack of a fast weapon, Excalibur has fastest speed but its damage is a little less than off-hand mace (428 vs 432). And Quyneax; just asking this to see if I got it. So with assault, it'll hit 4 times as we know, and each one of those hits damage is equal to 219% of what it would've hit in 6 seconds of pure auto attack? And with rapid fire, how does it work exactly? Because it says it's every 2 seconds but the hits are way faster than that, in fact, it should be 3 hits, each one being 94%, right? So what's up with that lol Also, how did you get to the conclusion that 4-tick weapons deal 100% dmg, 5-tick 80% and 6-tick 66%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambler Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Also Excalibur doesn't have the attack of a fast weapon, Excalibur has fastest speed but its damage is a little less than off-hand mace (428 vs 432).It's a level 70 fastest weapon, but the damage is of a level 70 fast weapon, with multipliers, it ends up at a level 89 damage with level 70 accuracy. :P ^^My blog of EoC PvM, lols and Therapy.^^My livestream- Currently: Offline :(Offical Harpy Therapist of the Mad[hide=Lewtations]Barrows drops: Dharok's helm x2, Guthan's helm, Ahrim's top, Hood and skirt, Torag's hammers, Karils skirt, Karil's top, Torag's helm, Verac's skirt, Verac's Flail, Dharok's Platebody.Dag kings drops: Lost count! :wall:4k+ Glacors, 7 Ragefires, 4 Steadfasts, 4 Glaivens, 400+ shards![/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenw Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Also, how did you get to the conclusion that 4-tick weapons deal 100% dmg, 5-tick 80% and 6-tick 66%? I made a post in Data and Research section, where I compared different weapons's ability crits with each other. Ability crits are always that ability's maximum hit, so it is a perfect indicator of how much damage something does. If the speed of the weapon was not taken into account, then basically everything under the sun that isn't the slowest speed would automatically suck, for example, Maul would do more damage than dual Drygore Weapons because Maul is average speed and Drygores are fast at best. 6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 DivinationKiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)Obby set renewed post update #2: 0QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 KitsMax Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd) Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills. Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riqualyn Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 I forget where I found it, but they had worked out the formulas for normalized damage to the following and had verified it in game. Two-Handed: (weapon damage + (1.5 * strength) Dual-Wield: ((main hand damage + strength) + (offhand damage + strength * 0.5)) x speed modifier Speed modifier is fastest = 1.5, fast = 1.2, average = 1 Critical damage is also capped at 1,000 damage So chaotics for example, at level 80 when you can first use them all come out to exactly 1908 modified damage.When you get to 99 strength maul = 1936.5, LS/rapier = 1942.2, claws = 1950.75. So at least as far as momentum is concerned, fastest = best since that strength modifier gets taken into account for each hit. Item damage bonuses also has a similar effect in that it applies to every hit. As far as abilities go, I haven't bothered to check if the strength bonus applies to them or not (would take two people with different strength levels). Without the strength modifiers, maul = 1788, LS/Rapier = 1764, claws = 1728. Drygores without the strength modifiers are LS/Rapier 1983.6, Maces 1944. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J35u5_M4 Posted April 21, 2013 Author Share Posted April 21, 2013 Ok, so that answers what weapon damage is taken in count for the abilities, but I still got a question though On what Quyneax said; Assault should do 219% of weapon damage (with the speed modifiers) per hit done right? If '% weapon damage' and '% autoattack damage over a fixed amount of time' are the same thing, which they shouldn't (Although it's Jagex, so it's possible).And on Rapid Fire, still don't get it why the description says every 2 seconds yet the attacks go way faster than that.Also, I read on the wiki that 1 game tick is around 0,6 seconds right? So how is that Quyneax said that Assault does the damage over 8 ticks, 6 seconds shouldn't be 8 ticks, but 10 (Assuming 1 tick = 0,6 seconds). Just wondering because I kind of want to know how the new system works, the old one all you needed to care about was keeping strength bonus as high as possible, on this one, well, the ability descriptions don't make it easy to know what do they exactly do (On Assault/Rapid Fire/Destroy at least), they should really change those descriptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 It's not 219% of 6 seconds worth of autoattack damage. I said:"each hit being 219% of 4 ticks worth of autoattack damage" Should mention that normalizing to 4 ticks is a choice. Abilities are all about a certain amount of ticks worth, but which amount of ticks only affects rounding really. Whether you increase fast weapons to slow speed (+50%, x1.5) or reduce slow weapons to fast speed (-33%, x.66) doesn't really matter. All the descriptions are wrong. Start with that assumption and work your way up. Jagex doesn't understand the system as well as we do. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sy_Accursed Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 ^I think the guys who coded it do, unfortunately they probably have little to nothing to do with the guys who wrote the info text for abilities which probably gets further distorted when handed to the translation teams and it gets 'dumbed down' to ensure it's near identical in all languages. Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills :: Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA RewardsDragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J35u5_M4 Posted April 21, 2013 Author Share Posted April 21, 2013 Where did you get the that each Assault hit is 4 ticks of damage? Experimental data I'm assuming? Anyways, why not just use weapon damage and get over with it... Would be much easier than going with ticks worth of damage lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Weapon damage is higher for slow weapons, you can't use that as base to determine ability damage. Besides, ticks worth of autoattack damage is really simple. As I explained it doesn't matter which amount of ticks you take, just that it is the same amount for all weapon speeds. The ability multiplier adjusts. Just did a little test, maul has 1936 damage listed @ 99 strength, Slice crit is 1640 without potions/prayers/void. That means 100% weapon damage is 1312 (Slice being 125% weapon damage), which is about 66% of 1936, so it seems it is in fact 4 ticks worth. It's not that hard to prove :P. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J35u5_M4 Posted April 21, 2013 Author Share Posted April 21, 2013 Oh, so you just traduced the type of weapon for the ticks? Like, the speed of the weapon is the amount of ticks of the auto attack damage? Slow weapons being 6 ticks, that would also say that all weapons of the same tier pretty much have the same weapon damage when it comes to abilities. I think I get it now, still think they should change those descriptions which could confuse anyone though EDIT: Allow me to rephrase that; Since Slow weapons are 6 ticks with 1936 damage (Using the maul example) @ 99 Strength. According to your test you hit 1640 Critical without boosts using Slice, which means that number was 125% of the weapon damage, which would say the weapon damage is 1312, which is around 66% for 1936, so if I say 1936 is 6 ticks, then 1312 will come around to 4 ticks. I guess the same logic applies to the other weapons, all ending up on the same weapon damage for the same tier of weapon. That said, the 'best' weapon can only be determined by the situation it is use, like, the monster being weak to stab (Like the Kalphite King on his ranged phase) EDIT: Although, I did some calcs for the other chaotic weapons, and they're off by a little difference (As in, 80% of the weapon damage of having both longswords is not the same of having both claws). So I guess it's not exact what we're saying here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenw Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 It isn't, slower weapons do more damage than faster weapons. This would suggest that strength and other bonuses are applied AFTER they normalise the weapons, rather than before. But, I found something that was very inconsistent, Fast weapons strangely benefits more from + damage gear than either Fastest or Average (both of the latter match, fast receives 2 extra point of damage for some reason). 6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 DivinationKiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)Obby set renewed post update #2: 0QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 KitsMax Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd) Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills. Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J35u5_M4 Posted April 22, 2013 Author Share Posted April 22, 2013 Here are the calculations I did with some chaotic weaponry Using Dual Longswords and Maul because I have no claws for the Fastest weapon example. Chaotic Maul:Speed: AverageWeapon Damage: 1788Weapon Damage on stats with 99 Strength: 1936Strength Boost for Chaotic Maul: 148 Dual Longswords:Speed: FastWeapon Damage: 980/490Weapon Damage on stats with 99 Strength: 1079/539Strength Boost for Dual Chaotic Longswords: 99/49 So, strength gives the exact same boost to chaotic maul (an average speed weapon) and dual longswords (fast speed weapons) Bandos Chestplate gives +26 Damage to main hand and +13 Damage to off-hand, tested it with Dual drygore maces and Dual Chaotic Longswords and the bonuses were working fine, but the curious thing is that when I tested it on Chaotic Maul, it should give a total of +39 Damage boost (Following the logic behind the Strength Boost), yet it only gives +26. So damage from armors yields more benefits when dual wielding weapons. So, to calculate the weapon damage to be used on abilities with the examples from above:With NO Bandos PlatebodyChaotic Maul:Uses 2/3 of the listed damage.Listed Damage: 1936Weapon Damage for Abilities = 1290,67 Dual Chaotic Longswords:Uses 4/5 of the listed damage.Listed Damage: 1079+539 = 1618Weapon Damage for Abilities = 1294,4 So according to this, dual weapons have higher weapon damage when it comes to damage done by abilities, but not by far. With the Bandos Chestplate on, the difference grows bigger, giving the following results:Weapon Damage for Abilites using Chaotic Maul + Bandos Chestplate = 1308Weapon Damage for Abilities using Dual Chaotic Longswords + Bandos Chestplate = 1325,6 So, apparently Dual Wielding weapons is more DPS than using two-handed weapons. At least following these calculations, I'd need someone to get some actual field data to prove it. The odd thing is that, the weapon damage I got for Chaotic Maul doesn't match with the one Quyneax calculated by doing the critical hit with Slice (Which was 1312). So, if someone is bored enough, maybe they could check what I did and find the error? EDIT: I used the stat data from RSWiki to do the calculations with Chaotic Claws.Assuming the Strength Bonus and the Bandos Chestplate bonus apply as they did on the Chaotic Longswords we have... Chaotic Claws:Speed: FastestWeapon Damage: 768/384Weapon Damage on stats with 99 Strength: 867/433Strength Boost for Dual Chaotic Longswords: 99/49Uses 100% of the Listed DamageWeapon Damage for Abilities = 1300 And with Bandos Chestplate:Weapon Damage for Abilities using Dual Chaotic Claws + Bandos Chestplate = 1339 So... According to this, the faster the weapon, the higher its weapon damage for abilities will be when compared to weapons of the same tier. If this is the actual way the system works (Which i doubt because there are some irregularities with my numbers and the ones Quyneax provided) then fastest weapons are the best DPS choice for bosses (Dual Wielding abilities are more focused on one enemy, not to mention the use of Destroy), and that Chaotic Claws are better than Chaotic Longswords, they're both slash weapons, according to the calculations, chaotic claws do more damage, and they have that 1,8% melee crit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J35u5_M4 Posted April 22, 2013 Author Share Posted April 22, 2013 Well, let's close this topic. I'll move this discussion to the Data and Research sub-forum. Seems more appropriate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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