My challenge to atheists and theists.

[BlueLancer]

I felt this shouldn't be posted on an already existing thread because I'm about to start a new discussion on this matter which is not related to religious beliefs itself. This has nothing to do with religion, this is from a rational/logical viewpoint:

 

 

 

To make a long story short, I want to challenge anybody who believes agnosticism is not the only RATIONAL belief. I'm not talking about 'feelings' about your religion or so-called proof that 'God doesn't exist', I'm talking only about the absolute and discoverable, proven facts and realities.

 

 

 

(Agnosticism, you're not sure what it means? Here's the short definition: A man cannot know for sure whether God exists or not)

 

 

 

Argument:

 

 

 

1. Nobody has solid proof of a supreme "God's" existance

 

(assuming there'd just be one)

 

 

 

2. Not a single person in the world can prove God doesn't exist.

 

 

 

3. A human cannot be judged by his/her religion to eternal damnation by a righteous 'God' if one were to exist. This would in ANY case mean the following:

 

 

 

3b. The majority of the people in the world would be judged to damnation (Hell, or whatever any religion with this concept would call it) as no religion in the world has an absolute majority of followers.

 

 

 

3c.

 

• 
   
  [*:10t5tu9l]Islam is the "True religion" with 1.3 billion followers: 5.2 billion people are damnated
   
   
   
  [*:10t5tu9l]Judaism or any of it's subsections is the true religion: 6.484 billion people are damnated
   
   
   
  [*:10t5tu9l]Christianity or any of it's subsections is the true religion: 4.5 billion people are damnated
   
   
   
  [*:10t5tu9l]Other non-abrahamic religion is the "True religion" and assumes damnation for 'gentiles': Not specified, as this is usually not emphasized

 

 

 

Conclusion?

 

 

 

Religion= Thumbs up if you feel like wanting to be a part of it and it helps you in your life.

 

Thumbs down if it makes you even briefly think other people who don't believe the same as you will "go to hell" and you can judge them. Sadly, no matter what religion you represent, that represents more than 70% of the world's population.

 

 

 

Numbers:

 

 

 

http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm

 

 

 

Therefore, if anybody can present me convincing proof otherwise, I'd be happy to debate the FACT that the only LOGICAL (not religious) 'belief' is agnosticism.

 

 

 

Further reading:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

 

 

 

Agnostics may claim that it is not possible to have absolute or certain spiritual knowledge or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no such knowledge.

[Bubsa]

Absolutely brilliant, Blue. Not only does this reflect my own beliefs, you've made the thread in such a great way. I look forward to this discussion greatly :)

[Lionheart_0]

Im truely sorry, but i dont understand what your asking of us.

 

 

 

Edit: ive read it over three times, and i still dont understand.

[caligula101]

Some say God was invented to give humanity hope. Who doesn't pray when you have a loved one near death, or when you are in alot of trouble. I know that I do. I can't see how he can exist, there are no true facts to support him. But I know that it gives me great comfort to know that maybe/possibly there is somebody watching over us. It may be not be logical, but I don't mind.

[StrOwez]

Thanks Blue for making this topic - this is what i have to live with, one of my parents being a Christian.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi there my Mom became an Evangelical christian a few years back and forces me to go to church every sunday and to some silly youth group.

 

 

 

Anyway before i tryed to belive but i didn't feel anything.. Now i just treat going to church as a social.

 

 

 

Also my mom put me into a christian school so i know the bible from top to bottom.

 

 

 

My biggest question is God knows everything.. he knows what the plan for our lives will be even before we are born...( this is what christians belive) ...... so why did he create the people he knew that when lived their lives will go to hell... ( I asked this to my church pastor, to which he replyed he doesn't know..)

 

 

 

Also i can scream now 'God where are you' and get nothing..

 

 

 

Also they claim i killed Jesus, did I? I did nothing to him he lived 2000 years ago i would have respected the guy.

 

 

 

Anyway i go to church and my school with optimism because this religion stuff makes my mother happy and that is important for me.

 

 

 

My father is totally against it, anyway i've said way too much.

 

 

 

If a Christian could answer some of my points please do.

 

 

 

Explain the Trinity and explain how Jesus the son of God is God.. Isn't he the Son?

 

 

 

If i die and go to hell and be tortured 24/7 for eternity then that's a bit unfair - i have never asked to be born ( i dont think)

 

 

 

If my mother goes to heaven ( a place of happines) and i go to hell ( not so happy) she will be upset that i'm in hell, and therefor not so happy in heaven.

 

 

 

So you know i do know what i am talking about i got an A in my Religiouse Studies exam

[Guest GhostRanger]

Wow. That was the most self-righteous post I've ever read on this forum, and I've read a lot. I'd write a response but your post was full of such bull I can't even think straight.

[BlueLancer]

Wow. That was the most self-righteous post I've ever read on this forum, and I've read a lot. I'd write a response but your post was full of such bull I can't even think straight.

 

 

 

It's ok; I appreciate any kind of comments (even that), I just want to know whether you have absolute proof to support your current belief in a rational sense and/or to thus challenge agnosticism as the only RATIONAL 'belief' (or concept or theory or whatever you call it). Maybe then you can follow up with a reply. :)

[malo2]

you cant prove god dosent exist because theres nothing to prove. Before you prove that god dosent exist, you first need a reason to belive he exists. (the bible or any other holy book is not a reason)

[Bubsa]

I'd say that the billions of people who believe in some concept of a God is enough reason to prove otherwise.

[BlueLancer]

you cant prove god dosent exist because theres nothing to prove. Before you prove that god dosent exist, you first need a reason to belive he exists. (the bible or any other holy book is not a reason)

 

 

 

But you can never be 100% sure he doesn't exist, given his supposed omnipotent nature? It's irrational to state he doesn't exist as that argument falls on thin air. If he doesn't even have a physical form and is a spiritual entity, how would it even be possible to disprove him if you can't see him, touch him, hear him..?

 

 

 

Neither can you ever be 100% sure he does exist based on empirical evidence or scientific facts (given the probability that God will most likely not show up on Earth during our lifetime and perform miracles in front of our eyes). Is there any documented data about him other than religious scriptures? Photographic data? How about live footage? So far, no "supernatural" footage has ever been proven as real and on this I want to challenge anybody as well. As far as I know it's all "entertainment" or pseudoscientific or staged junk.

[Anesthesia]

Nice post BlueLancer. I'm an atheist because I don't think quite like that, I don't believe something that isn't true at face value until I've seen proof. It comes with being a big bad skeptic.

 

 

 

Whilst I realise that agnosticism is the most responsible worldview, I decided to choose, one way or the other based on evidence I'd seen.

[TheSlayer]

Decent post.... I'd rather not get into this discussion, but all I have to say is that to prove that something exists, there has to be evidence. Without evidence, it does not exist.

 

 

 

You see, the existence of a god is only ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅobviousÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[KCHughes]

This has nothing to do with religion

 

This had EVERYTHING to do with religion. The only thing you did was attempt to destroy the faith and beliefs of others for no reason. Why would you want to do something like that? Because you think YOUR belief (if you can even call it that) is the only one that's 'right'? Okay, then I BELIEVE that MY religion is correct and I BELIEVE that you're part of the 70% that will be in hell at the end of time.

 

 

 

As far as agnosticism, how is it 'logical' to be 'unsure' if God exists or not? There is either a God or no God. Being 'unsure' is just sugar-coated indecision. That's not a belief at all. Belief or unbelief in God WILL change how you live your life. Being unsure is a sign that you're noncommittal, afraid to change, afraid to be incorrect, and self-absorbed.

 

 

 

The stupidity of your post makes me laugh. You're actually trying to convince people to be indecisive. You're trying to convince people to be unsure of God's existence! That's hilarious! That is the single most ludicrous thing I've ever heard in my life!

 

 

 

What's worse is that you're trying to drag others down to your level. Tons of people here believe in God, and here you are trying to destroy those beliefs, obviously for your own self gratitude. That's sickening. If you're going to do that, you might as well just become a suicide bomber in the name of agnosticism.

[Lionheart_0]

NVM, unless the guy above me is compleatly wrong, i get it now, and partially agree with him.

 

 

 

Chose a side.

[StrOwez]

Still not getting this, somone please explain.

 

 

 

Ive read over most of the posts and people are posting things that make no logical sense.

 

 

 

I think what his trying to do is find arguement for and against the excistents of God leaning more to the against factor.

[TheSlayer]

This has nothing to do with religion

 

This had EVERYTHING to do with religion. The only thing you did was attempt to destroy the faith and beliefs of others for no reason. Why would you want to do something like that? Because you think YOUR belief (if you can even call it that) is the only one that's 'right'? Okay, then I BELIEVE that MY religion is correct and I BELIEVE that you're part of the 70% that will be in hell at the end of time.

 

 

 

As far as agnosticism, how is it 'logical' to be 'unsure' if God exists or not? There is either a God or no God. Being 'unsure' is just sugar-coated indecision. That's not a belief at all. Belief or unbelief in God WILL change how you live your life. Being unsure is a sign that you're noncommittal, afraid to change, afraid to be incorrect, and self-absorbed.

 

 

 

The stupidity of your post makes me laugh. You're actually trying to convince people to be indecisive. You're trying to convince people to be unsure of God's existence! That's hilarious! That is the single most ludicrous thing I've ever heard in my life!

 

 

 

What's worse is that you're trying to drag others down to your level. Tons of people here believe in God, and here you are trying to destroy those beliefs, obviously for your own self gratitude. That's sickening. If you're going to do that, you might as well just become a suicide bomber in the name of agnosticism.

 

I believe that you just went a little bit overboard. While I have made up my decision on what I believe, Blue was simply posting the facts. You can't deny the facts that he listed under "3c". Be open-minded a little bit. Do some lateral thinking and explore other options. Why does considering that God does not exist make you a bad person? Every person has the right to question their religious believes and they should. Don't be afraid to consider other options. You may decide that your beliefs are right and never think about it again, but that is your choice. Please don't flame people for stating the facts and having different views then you.

[Tigra00]

KCHughes, you're a pompous jackass and if anything, the people who will be in "Hell" are people like you. You believe that because my beliefs are not yours, thaty I will suffer ETERNAL TORTURE? You simple, brain-washed FOOL. My chances of being tortured eternally are JUST AS GOOD AS YOUR CHANCES.

 

 

 

You people obviously don't even think before you make comments. You do realize that other religion's say that it is YOU who will be burning in Hell at the end of time, and they believe this just as strongly as you do? You know what? According to this...EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US will be in Hell. That is the problem with religion...There are too many that contradict eachother (nevermind that they contradict themselves). NOONE WINS. You can't simply say "Nope, their religion is wrong. I'm right." because you cannot know that. Not even faith itself could make you KNOW that. Put yourself in someone elses shoes; They believe the same thing you do, only a little different, and you tell them and the rest of us we're wrong and going to hell?

 

 

 

Screw you.

[Greatsilverwyrm]

As far as agnosticism, how is it 'logical' to be 'unsure' if God exists or not? There is either a God or no God. Being 'unsure' is just sugar-coated indecision. That's not a belief at all. Belief or unbelief in God WILL change how you live your life. Being unsure is a sign that you're noncommittal, afraid to change, afraid to be incorrect, and self-absorbed.

 

 

 

The hell? Are you dealing with some obscure form of logic that's exclusive to strange worlds of non-reason?

 

I wasn't going to post much on this topic, but now I will. It is the most logical thing to be agnostic. There is no real proof that god exists, and there is just as much proof that he doesn't. The only thing you can site on either side is fundementally empirical and subjective. Why does it have to be indecision? What's wrong with deciding simply to not beleive in anything? And no, it's not beleif, it's disbeleif, that's the point. That may sound highly nihilistic, but, so be it.

 

 

 

The stupidity of your post makes me laugh. You're actually trying to convince people to be indecisive. You're trying to convince people to be unsure of God's existence! That's hilarious! That is the single most ludicrous thing I've ever heard in my life!

 

 

 

Can we do anything without resulting to personal insults? C'mon. At least construct a post without logical fallacies.

 

Oh, wait, that's right, you come from a place where "logic" means "chocolate".

 

And yes, I realize the irony and hypocrisy.

 

 

 

What's worse is that you're trying to drag others down to your level. Tons of people here believe in God, and here you are trying to destroy those beliefs, obviously for your own self gratitude. That's sickening. If you're going to do that, you might as well just become a suicide bomber in the name of agnosticism.

 

 

 

This is one place where I must, unfortunately, agree with you somewhat.

 

Your post would've been fine, BlueLancer, however it seems to be worded in a way that tries to make beleif in either side something to be looked-down upon. I say live and let live. If you want to beleive, fine, if you don't, fine, but don't try to force me to another side. If you want to have a discussion, that's also fine, but at least try to be careful to word it in such a way that nobody is being put down?

[KCHughes]

This has nothing to do with religion

 

This had EVERYTHING to do with religion. The only thing you did was attempt to destroy the faith and beliefs of others for no reason. Why would you want to do something like that? Because you think YOUR belief (if you can even call it that) is the only one that's 'right'? Okay, then I BELIEVE that MY religion is correct and I BELIEVE that you're part of the 70% that will be in hell at the end of time.

 

 

 

As far as agnosticism, how is it 'logical' to be 'unsure' if God exists or not? There is either a God or no God. Being 'unsure' is just sugar-coated indecision. That's not a belief at all. Belief or unbelief in God WILL change how you live your life. Being unsure is a sign that you're noncommittal, afraid to change, afraid to be incorrect, and self-absorbed.

 

 

 

The stupidity of your post makes me laugh. You're actually trying to convince people to be indecisive. You're trying to convince people to be unsure of God's existence! That's hilarious! That is the single most ludicrous thing I've ever heard in my life!

 

 

 

What's worse is that you're trying to drag others down to your level. Tons of people here believe in God, and here you are trying to destroy those beliefs, obviously for your own self gratitude. That's sickening. If you're going to do that, you might as well just become a suicide bomber in the name of agnosticism.

 

I believe that you just went a little bit overboard. I do have agree with you about choosing one side, believer or not. While I have made up my decision on what I believe, Blue was simply posting the facts. You can't deny the facts that he listed under "3c". Be open-minded a little bit. Do some lateral thinking and explore other options. Why does considering that God does not exist make you a bad person? Every person has the right to question their religious believes and they should. Don't be afraid to consider other options. You may decide that your beliefs are right and never think about it again, but that is your choice. Please don't flame people for stating the facts and having different views then you.

 

 

 

Being indecisive is not a belief. Persuading others to stop being faithful is terrible. There.

[TheSlayer]

This has nothing to do with religion

 

This had EVERYTHING to do with religion. The only thing you did was attempt to destroy the faith and beliefs of others for no reason. Why would you want to do something like that? Because you think YOUR belief (if you can even call it that) is the only one that's 'right'? Okay, then I BELIEVE that MY religion is correct and I BELIEVE that you're part of the 70% that will be in hell at the end of time.

 

 

 

As far as agnosticism, how is it 'logical' to be 'unsure' if God exists or not? There is either a God or no God. Being 'unsure' is just sugar-coated indecision. That's not a belief at all. Belief or unbelief in God WILL change how you live your life. Being unsure is a sign that you're noncommittal, afraid to change, afraid to be incorrect, and self-absorbed.

 

 

 

The stupidity of your post makes me laugh. You're actually trying to convince people to be indecisive. You're trying to convince people to be unsure of God's existence! That's hilarious! That is the single most ludicrous thing I've ever heard in my life!

 

 

 

What's worse is that you're trying to drag others down to your level. Tons of people here believe in God, and here you are trying to destroy those beliefs, obviously for your own self gratitude. That's sickening. If you're going to do that, you might as well just become a suicide bomber in the name of agnosticism.

 

I believe that you just went a little bit overboard. I do have agree with you about choosing one side, believer or not. While I have made up my decision on what I believe, Blue was simply posting the facts. You can't deny the facts that he listed under "3c". Be open-minded a little bit. Do some lateral thinking and explore other options. Why does considering that God does not exist make you a bad person? Every person has the right to question their religious believes and they should. Don't be afraid to consider other options. You may decide that your beliefs are right and never think about it again, but that is your choice. Please don't flame people for stating the facts and having different views then you.

 

 

 

Being indecisive is not a belief. Persuading others to stop being faithful is terrible. There.

 

Where do your beliefs stem from? Your parents? Your culture? Have you ever questioned your beliefs and considered other possibilities? If not, you are extremely closed-minded and stubborn.

[MyPurpleCrayon]

Stuff

 

 

 

Rofl.

 

 

 

Congrats Blue, your post has already caused quite an uproar! :P

 

 

 

Can we do anything without resulting to personal insults? C'mon. At least construct a post without logical fallacies.

 

 

 

But out of all the things I read, this one takes the cake. Seriously man, you of all people have no right to talk about insults.

 

 

 

OnTopic: Yeah right! I would never step in that direction...

[Bubsa]

He's not persuading others at all, he's asking to see what makes people believe, or not, as the case maybe.

 

 

 

Even if he were, I doubt one post on a forum would sway someone's beliefs.

[apinagez]

As far as agnosticism, how is it 'logical' to be 'unsure' if God exists or not? There is either a God or no God. Being 'unsure' is just sugar-coated indecision. That's not a belief at all. Belief or unbelief in God WILL change how you live your life. Being unsure is a sign that you're noncommittal, afraid to change, afraid to be incorrect, and self-absorbed.

 

 

 

Even though I don't fully understand Blue's point, I completely disagree with you; being unsure about God's existance is the ONLY logical alternative. You may believe God based on no evidences, you may believe he doesn't exist based on no evidences as either, or you may be unsure, face there are no evidences comproving or not God's existance.

 

Myself, I'm an atheist, not an agnosticist, but I do think my view can't be proven by any evidences but my own disbelief on the Church's instituition.

[thedepressedsquirrel]

It's not logical to be a believer because there is more than one following to choose from and all of them claim to be the only right one.

 

 

 

It's not logical to be a nonbeliever because you cannot refute something that is omnipotent.

 

 

 

or:

 

 

 

It's not logical to be a believer because god hasn't shown himself.

 

It's not logical to be a nonbeliever because god hasn't shown himself.

 

 

 

I don't see why that is so difficult to understand.

[deloriagod]

The way I see things is religion is only here to give those who believe hope. If people want to live their lives believing in God, going to church, and living by the 10 Commandments then I respect their decision and I won't let that stand between a healthy relationship with them. I don't fully believe in God because it has never been proven that he exists and because of a family probelm that happened when I was young. The bible was of course written by people and thus they put in it what they want. I feel better liviing my life without worrying wether my actions will cause me to go to heaven or hell, because then I'm free to do what I wish (law abiding of course O:) ).

 

As far as agnosticism goes, I suppose I'd fit in there.. If someone dies and actually meets God, he can't tell anyone who is living so God existence can still be questioned.

 

 

 

Religion is something I could debate for quite some time so I probably won't be looking back here too often..