God, from a programmer's point of view.

[Notorious_Ice]

2 botmakers were having an argument about god on IRC the other night. One of them braught up a valid point. Im an athiest, and have cut down any arguments presented to me about religion being true, and this is the only one I can't argue with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think about it this way: We are currently getting to a place in computing where AI (Artificial Intelligence) is getting to be decent. What if at someplace, sometime someone perfected AI to actually become a conscience being? It is entirely within the realm of possibility.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The programmer could create a self contained enviroment (ie Universe) just like unsigned java applets run in a "sandbox". This programmer could create everything, and give it rules by which to function (scientific laws of physics and the like), he could create intelligent beings with the power of free choice such as we have and just let the program advance and expand itself on its own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To everyone in the program, the programmer would be God, since he had always existed before anything else including the universe. This programmer could watch as the program he set in motion functions, and if anyone make a request of him (prayer) he could decide whether or not to grant the request and what is best for each one of us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The concept is mind boggling, and not proveable or disproveable in any way. This is why we have faith and belief. Whether or not there is a God will not be known by any of us 100% until we die. Personally, I would rather believe, only to die and find out there was nothing to believe in, than to not believe, only to die and find out there was somthing to believe in all along, what about you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here I will have a Q and A, these are some questions that [Caution: Jagex Rule Violation] came up with: <<

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q: If we are in a computer simulation then why would there be an afterlife?

 

 

 

A:Why not? After we go through this simulation and end our life why not transfer us to another simulation? The programmer (God) has already written a set of rules that judges our choices to be wrong or right. He decides whether to transfer our programs after death to heaven or hell, each being thier own universe seperate from our own, undoubtedly with different laws governing them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q: I think anything capable of creating a computer powerful enough to simulate down to the sub sub sub atomic interactions of every atom in the universe wouldnt need to run any such simulation

 

 

 

A:See, we just think that way. For all we know, there could be no atoms. If this is a computer program, EVERYTHING we know about science or anything else only applies in here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q: How could any being or computer live or run as long as this universe has been in existance, its been billions and billions of years?

 

 

 

A:Everything is relative. Speed is relative when you are driving a car down the road, you may be going 50mph relative to the road outside, but relative to the pencil on your dashboard you are not moving at all. Time is also relative, what may have been billions of years to us, may be only milliseconds to the computer running the program.

[sublimer1990]

Wow... that is an awesome point. Really makes you think.

[apinagez]

Welcome to the Matrix.

[dusqi]

The programmer wouldn't be God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing about God is that, you can't just ask "who created God". Because God created himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The programmer is just another stage up from the point of view of the simulation, but he was created just like the simulation was, he didn't always exist.

[Nadril]

The programmer wouldn't be God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing about God is that, you can't just ask "who created God". Because God created himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The programmer is just another stage up from the point of view of the simulation, but he was created just like the simulation was, he didn't always exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that's the hard part.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, there must have been something in the begining. Be it god, a little bit of matter or whatever you belive, something was at the begining. This is obvious because we had to have started somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do like the idea as "god" being a programmer though, in that sense. It very well could be true, right down to even explaining phenomenons (I.E bugs in the "program").

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An interesting way to look at it.

[Mr_Putter]

Kind of off topic; but assuming that the "Big Bang" is true, where did that remarkably dense ball of matter come from originally?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It, like a god, has to come from somewhere. Unless it somehow created itself, in which case it is god. But it probably didn't, and I refuse to believe that one day it just was.

[Nadril]

Kind of off topic; but assuming that the "Big Bang" is true, where did that remarkably dense ball of matter come from originally?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It, like a god, has to come from somewhere. Unless it somehow created itself, in which case it is god. But it probably didn't, and I refuse to believe that one day it just was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well like I said, one day it just was there, whatever "it" may be.

[Guest GhostRanger]

God didn't create Himself, He has always been. The uncaused cause.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kind of off topic; but assuming that the "Big Bang" is true, where did that remarkably dense ball of matter come from originally?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not quite sure...I'm positive that death_by_pod can give more insight on this though. I've heard recently that because the new theory about black holes is that instead of just bending the fabric of space, they can actually tear it - that some people are speculating that the big bang could have been a black hole that tore through another universe and created a new universe on the other side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But that idea being the sole idea...without ever explaining where the original matter came from - is an infinite regress. And I say no to infinite regresses!

[Zonorhc]

If God was a programmer, he wasn't a very good one. I mean he didn't even write up decent documentation, and his program is full of bugs. Plus, the last time he performed any maintenance, the server was down for forty days and forty nights.

[____]

If God was a programmer, he wasn't a very good one. I mean he didn't even write up decent documentation, and his program is full of bugs. Plus, the last time he performed any maintenance, the server was down for forty days and forty nights.

:bowrofl:

[assassin_696]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. This is actually why I believe in a god but not necessarily a religion. We must have come from somewhere or something.

[Nadril]

If God was a programmer, he wasn't a very good one. I mean he didn't even write up decent documentation, and his program is full of bugs. Plus, the last time he performed any maintenance, the server was down for forty days and forty nights.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look at it this way: at least god isn't SOE.

[Tigra00]

 

If God was a programmer, he wasn't a very good one. I mean he didn't even write up decent documentation, and his program is full of bugs. Plus, the last time he performed any maintenance, the server was down for forty days and forty nights.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look at it this way: at least god isn't SOE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 points! :P That's the last thing we need.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Someday, I too believe, that programmers will be able to create things like that, but I'm pretty positive an entire Universe would be used for a video game (Spore!) and not for a "life similation". :P Maybe in a million years when we're so smart that we get THAT bored we'd do something like that, but in, say, 20 years, it'd probably be used for video games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Creating an actual "conscious being" is way harder than it even sounds...I mean creating something to do one thing independantly responding to another thing without our help would take a bazillion lines of code...It's pretty rediculous. In order to make a copy of how humans act...I can't even imagine how many lines it'd take. Millions, for sure?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Shrug*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see what this has to do with God exsisting though...Unless there is any evidence that we're just a program, which I would doubt because nothing here EVER gets fixed. :P

[Fortress2000]

Kind of off topic; but assuming that the "Big Bang" is true, where did that remarkably dense ball of matter come from originally?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It, like a god, has to come from somewhere. Unless it somehow created itself, in which case it is god. But it probably didn't, and I refuse to believe that one day it just was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scientists can look back to something like 0.0001 nanoseconds after the Big Bang, though they have no idea what happened, and what was there before that time. Just gets you wondering.

[Notorious_Ice]

But if this is just a simulation, then ANYTHING could apply in the programmers world. Things nobody could even imagine of here. So while there is no way to prove or disprove it, the theory is completely possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It also leads to the possibility that our "god" is a program to. That we are a simulation, inside a simulation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course theres a bunch of weird possibilities of life. I could be in a mental ward imagining all this.

[Death_By_Pod]

Kind of off topic; but assuming that the "Big Bang" is true, where did that remarkably dense ball of matter come from originally?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We can never physically know. The physics of the universe are so different and involved such huge energies I doubt you would be able to replicate or come up with a definite answer. As to where the matter came from, does it really matter? So long as we can accurately model what happened, the actual thing behind the phenomena is irrelevant.

[Nazgul740]

 

Kind of off topic; but assuming that the "Big Bang" is true, where did that remarkably dense ball of matter come from originally?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It, like a god, has to come from somewhere. Unless it somehow created itself, in which case it is god. But it probably didn't, and I refuse to believe that one day it just was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well like I said, one day it just was there, whatever "it" may be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, it's impossible for something to come from nothing...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

think of it like this...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing

 

 

 

Nothing

 

 

 

Nothing

 

 

 

POOF!!- SOMETHING BIGBANG!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can't get somthing from nothing... it just isn't possible... Also nothing is unatainable in our world, thinking of nothing as a white sheet won't work because white is a color which is somthing... you just can't imigine nothing... our brains are too febal...

[assassin_696]

... you just can't imigine nothing... our brains are too febal...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your brain obviously hasn't had that new imagination software patch installed in it yet :P

[issy2]

Now for the Biggie...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where did the programmer come from? :wink:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It could be a bit like a chain - program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside program inside 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[Guest GhostRanger]

^ That's the point I made. Unless you have an uncaused cause, there's an infinite regress.

[insane]

As to where the matter came from, does it really matter? So long as we can accurately model what happened, the actual thing behind the phenomena is irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pfft, typical boring physicist answer ;P

[bjbj1991]

This is how your Universe would work (First Programmer, an infinite number of Universes each with a programmer, Us, Another infinite number of Universes.) This structure would form an infinitely long chain extending vertically. Each Universe will put strain on those above it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Say that each simulation was perfect and running at 100% efficiency and the initial simulation had infinite resources. After dividing its resources by an infinite you would only have enough resources to just barely run them. If even one simulation had a small flaw and consumed more than its share of resources then the chain would crash.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To make it work.

 

 

 

The First Programmer would need to write a 100% efficient simulation running of a computer with an infinite resources

 

 

 

The first computer and simulation would need to last long enough for an infinite number of simulations to create another (at least 10 billion years from the age of our Universe)

 

 

 

Every simulation below the first would need to make an identical copy of the first in order to continue the process.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The odds of all of this happening is about 1/Infinite and math usually simplifies this to 0.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Silently thinks to himself that none who is sane will be able to understand the gibberish I wrote*

[Notorious_Ice]

to bjbj1991, ghostranger and all those other people mentioning that god still could not have come from nothing. Remember that using this theory, the laws of science only apply here. As it would only be a simulation. Maybe in the programmers world people and things appear from thin air all the time. Maybe there isn't even something to appear to, maybe they are really just thaughts, not physical. And we are a physical simulation they have created. The possibilities are endless.

[Nadril]

 

 

Kind of off topic; but assuming that the "Big Bang" is true, where did that remarkably dense ball of matter come from originally?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It, like a god, has to come from somewhere. Unless it somehow created itself, in which case it is god. But it probably didn't, and I refuse to believe that one day it just was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well like I said, one day it just was there, whatever "it" may be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, it's impossible for something to come from nothing...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

think of it like this...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing

 

 

 

Nothing

 

 

 

Nothing

 

 

 

vanished!!- SOMETHING BIGBANG!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can't get somthing from nothing... it just isn't possible... Also nothing is unatainable in our world, thinking of nothing as a white sheet won't work because white is a color which is somthing... you just can't imigine nothing... our brains are too febal...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point is that "nothing" never existed. There was never "nothing" because that is impossible. There was always something there at the start. That something may be god, or the matter for the big bang, ect. But it was all there at the begining.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like you said, it's impossible for something to come out of nothing. It just can't happen. However, it can be true that "nothing" just never existed.

[Notorious_Ice]

Nadril read my above post.