this is the rants forum, not the complaints forum

[Stihl]

*right-clicks neogeo0823's signature, selects "properties"*

 

 

 

*notes the URL*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.uzzisoft.com/randomsigscript/neogeo0823.jpeg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hm, I wonder... :roll:

 

 

 

I actually like it, mind you. Especially the one where you've got that - er, elemental helm on. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uhm...ooh, one of the clan boards has a subforum. Maybe that'd be a viable option for what we've been discussing? [/spam]

[Stallion4589]

and here i was thinking it was dead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

are we allowed to know any of the proposals you have come up with ard?

[Ard_Choille]

you know what i just noticed? this thread has almost as many views as the rant guide. i dont know whether to laugh or cry at that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on a side note, Ard, ive figured out how you got that sig pic that changes everytime you reload the page. ive filled mine with interesting tidbits thats ive gathered from conversations with npcs in runescape. whqat do you think of my little collection? 8-)

 

 

 

Yep, just confirms the fact that users don't pay as much attention to stickies as they do the popular threads.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice rotating sig neo!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and here i was thinking it was dead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

are we allowed to know any of the proposals you have come up with ard?

 

 

 

I'm not at the proposal stage yet Stallion. I bit more observation is needed before any ideas will be posted. I'm still carefully watching the Rant forum and taking all sorts of user habits (including users posting to this thread :uhh: ) into consideration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The real challenge is that nothing will please everyone. Guidelines will continue to be ripped apart or mistaken as hard fast rules and certain words/post counts will always trigger flames. Add to that the fact that no amount of stickified topics will prevent redundancy. There are some good ideas posted here, but there are other perspectives/habits to consider that are not represented on this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keep up the discussion everyone.

[Robb_Stark]

Guidelines will continue to be ripped apart or mistaken as hard fast rules and certain words/post counts will always trigger flames.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you. I don't think most people realize that they're guidelines. I know in my rant, several people tried to throw the book at me. It's not exactly clear that they are guidelines and not rules.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's funny that this thread hasn't been moved by some overzealous moderator (not you, Ard) because it doesn't fit the rules at all. It's a meta-rant.

[neogeo0823]

I'm not at the proposal stage yet Stallion. I bit more observation is needed before any ideas will be posted. I'm still carefully watching the Rant forum and taking all sorts of user habits (including users posting to this thread :uhh: ) into consideration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The real challenge is that nothing will please everyone. Guidelines will continue to be ripped apart or mistaken as hard fast rules and certain words/post counts will always trigger flames. Add to that the fact that no amount of stickified topics will prevent redundancy. There are some good ideas posted here, but there are other perspectives/habits to consider that are not represented on this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keep up the discussion everyone.

true on all points, i suppose. the best thing you can ever hope for is to reduce unwanted redundancy, spam, etc., because even if you have a fool proof, air tight arguement posted in the rants guide, theres always those people who will not read the guide and post anyway. still, if theres even a small effect, then this thread will have served its purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on that note, though, what other sorts of perspectives/habits were you reffering to? maybe we could stear this conversation in a new direction and stir some life into it?

[neogeo0823]

hmmm... or not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

have there been any updates or recent issues that need to be discussed? im still interested in hearing about what habits exactly are being noted and if there any trends or anything that need to be discussed. i dont want to see this thread die, so if the topic can be steered to a semi-related topic that has the ultimate goal of fixed the main topic, ill be happy with that.

[Stallion4589]

um... merry christmas?

[Ard_Choille]

Alrighty folks. It's the reply you've been waiting for...the potential changes to the Rant Forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is not an announcement of actual changes (so don't go looking for these things on the forum yet), but a discussion of changes awaiting implementation. These ideas have been carefully evaluated by all levels of your Tip.It Staff in order to improve the Rant forum. At this point, we are looking for final tweaks to these changes. If you have a major alteration/addition to these ideas, it will most likely need to wait until these changes are implemented and have time to establish new patterns in rant behavior.

 

 

 

• Proposed Rant Forum Changes to be Implemented Simultaneously:
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
  • [*:2ye4iygs]Revise the Rant forum description and guidelines to focus more on "rant and run" concept, not debating.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    [*:2ye4iygs]Add "rant and run" sticky threads for the redundant one-liner topics. These would be clean slates for users to reply with their own rantings. Links to these threads would be listed in the new guidelines.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    [*:2ye4iygs]Create a "Debate Club" (ideas for a better name are welcome) subforum and accompanying rules for the hard core debaters. Initially, I don't envision a minimum post count to see how it is used in conjunction with the revamped Rant forum. In theory, the fly-by ranters can take care of what they need to vent on the main rant forum. If needed, we can add permission requirements later.

Please consider these changes and reply with your thoughts and opinions on them. Even though this thread is technically a rant, please reply constructively and with flame-free criticism.

[Stihl]

It's the reply you've been waiting for...the potential changes to the Rant Forum.

It is indeed! I scarcely think I can applaud your dedication to this near-dead topic enough. =D>

 

 

 

Wait, simultaneously? That made me do a double-take, I thought they were separate options. Okay, here we go:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• [*:241h43fe]Revise the Rant forum description and guidelines to focus more on "rant and run" concept, not debating.

Makes sense to me, if we're creating a subforum. Who needs two boards with the same focus?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• [*:241h43fe]Add "rant and run" sticky threads for the redundant one-liner topics. These would be clean slates for users to reply with their own rantings. Links to these threads would be listed in the new guidelines.

I'm guessing that if you considered the updates and "noob" stickies to be failures, you wouldn't be proposing this. The theory here is good - a small input of effort which yields a far larger output of organization and cleanliness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I wanted to say there's a problem with this, it'd be that there are a great deal of one-liner subjects, and nobody wants to wade through a great deal of stickies - make it general (catch as much crap as possible), make it concise (make it obvious what fits and what doesn't), pick out 4-5 of the worst offenders and sticky 'em. Advocate that, and I'm in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• [*:241h43fe]Create a "Debate Club" subforum and accompanying rules for the hard core debaters.

Can we have the old storage room for our club?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• [*:241h43fe]Initially, I don't envision a minimum post count to see how it is used in conjunction with the revamped Rant forum. In theory, the fly-by ranters can take care of what they need to vent on the main rant forum. If needed, we can add permission requirements later.

The implications of a "rant board" and a "debate board" are quite different. I can't imagine a drive-by ranter getting confused about which is for what, so I doubt requirements would be necessary. Rare cases can be solved with a "wrong forum" report.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only thing I'm worried about is the state of the main rant forum - it could stabilize, or it could deteriorate into a place for trolls to hang out. Mind you, that's as much a weakness of the posters as a weakness of the forum, if not moreso. Heavy trollers are not immune to banning, and I imagine some warning on the subject could be placed in the Rant Guide just so there is no room to complain...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, I think it's wisest if we encourage the debate types to initiate their own debate on any given subject, as opposed to trying to get a rant on that subject moved to the subforum. If a rant happens to be particularly insightful, we can make good use of the "quote" and "private message" buttons - again, the difference between the main forum and sub-forum is clear enough that we can expect users to pick the one which fits their desires, no matter how insightful they might happen to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Overall a very sensible idea.

[Ard_Choille]

Thanks so much for your reply Stihl! I'm hoping that these changes establish a decent structure that makes it easier for users to know where and how to post their rants. Here are my thoughts on your responses:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, simultaneously? That made me do a double-take, I thought they were separate options.

 

 

 

Yep, we plan to implement all three options at once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I wanted to say there's a problem with this, it'd be that there are a great deal of one-liner subjects, and nobody wants to wade through a great deal of stickies.

 

 

 

The current list of "what not to post" in the guidelines would be reduced and then topics posted to correlate to those that would be the most straightforward to sticky. Beyond the sticky threads, the forum would indeed be riddled with a variety of one-liner posts that would (in theory) die a natural death by simply being left without replies. The goal is to let people get in, blow steam and get out so I'd envision the turnover from page one to page two to be rather quick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The implications of a "rant board" and a "debate board" are quite different. I can't imagine a drive-by ranter getting confused about which is for what, so I doubt requirements would be necessary. Rare cases can be solved with a "wrong forum" report.

 

 

 

The goal is for there not to be requirements but we shall see how it goes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only thing I'm worried about is the state of the main rant forum - it could stabilize, or it could deteriorate into a place for trolls to hang out. Mind you, that's as much a weakness of the posters as a weakness of the forum, if not moreso. Heavy trollers are not immune to banning, and I imagine some warning on the subject could be placed in the Rant Guide just so there is no room to complain...

 

 

 

The main rant forum will most assuredly take on a new atmosphere. Even so, trolling will not be tolerated, as usual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, I think it's wisest if we encourage the debate types to initiate their own debate on any given subject, as opposed to trying to get a rant on that subject moved to the subforum. If a rant happens to be particularly insightful, we can make good use of the "quote" and "private message" buttons - again, the difference between the main forum and sub-forum is clear enough that we can expect users to pick the one which fits their desires, no matter how insightful they might happen to be.

 

 

 

Initially, the high-reply count threads in the current rant forum will be combed for the more content-rich threads. Once the new subforum goes live, they will be moved to the subforum progressively. Beyond that, if Rant threads surface as being popular for discussion-oriented replies they would be moved to the subforum on a case by case basis.

[swampjedi]

 

 

 

Revise the Rant forum description and guidelines to focus more on "rant and run" concept, not debating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. As I argued before ;), the Rants forum as it stands has very little to do with ranting. All of the "I need to blow off steam" topics are disallowed currently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Add "rant and run" sticky threads for the redundant one-liner topics. These would be clean slates for users to reply with their own rantings. Links to these threads would be listed in the new guidelines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, if vigorously enforced. People will still want to start topics, both for post counts and visibility.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Create a "Debate Club" (ideas for a better name are welcome) subforum and accompanying rules for the hard core debaters. Initially, I don't envision a minimum post count to see how it is used in conjunction with the revamped Rant forum. In theory, the fly-by ranters can take care of what they need to vent on the main rant forum. If needed, we can add permission requirements later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like this idea the best. It will be very nice to have somewhere to debate without worrying about conforming to whatever rules/guidelines make up a "good rant".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, we will need heavy moderation, at least to start.

[ortiz9471]

"rant [rÃÆââ¬Åâââ¬Ã¢nt] verb

 

 

 

to talk angrily"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"complaint [kÃÆââ¬Â°Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m-plÃÆââ¬Å¾ÃâÃ

[swampjedi]

Exactly my point.

[Stihl]

Beyond that, if Rant threads surface as being popular for discussion-oriented replies they would be moved to the subforum on a case by case basis.

A handful of debate-types can generally turn a rant into a debate, so here's what I'm getting at:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In theory, people don't post a rant if they want a debate. So, rather than jumping on a rant and trying to make something more out of it, I would advocate that we invite the author to post a revised version in the subforum, and failing that, quote the insightful bits in relevant debates. This discourages users from carrying that "impulse rant" tendency into the subforum, and will likely require less moderator attention. Not that I really expect all rants to remain unimpressive, but any duty that we can relieve the moderators of - even if it only works 50% of the time - is a good move in my books.

[neogeo0823]

see, look at this now. i go and dissappear for one day, just one day, to buy the nintendo wii and spend said day playing legend of zelda: twilight princess and look what i miss!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this is exactly what ive been waiting and hoping for, Ard :thumbsup:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hmm... ok, ill use stihl's reply to your initial post on this bit as the basis for my reply, as he has pretty much said what i wouldve said. ill just edit where necessary.(in bold)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's the reply you've been waiting for...the potential changes to the Rant Forum.

It is indeed! I scarcely think I can applaud your dedication to this near-dead topic enough. =D>

 

 

 

Wait, simultaneously? That made me do a double-take, I thought they were separate options. Okay, here we go:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• [*:3aslfq74]Revise the Rant forum description and guidelines to focus more on "rant and run" concept, not debating.

Makes sense to me, if we're creating a subforum. Who needs two boards with the same focus? this is actually what i always felt the rants forum itself should have been for. the idea just seemed to fit very well for the theme that was presented, however it also always confused me that those quick rants were always looked down upon. granted, it may have been because about 90% of them were horrible, but then again, thats what you can expect from one liners

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• [*:3aslfq74]Add "rant and run" sticky threads for the redundant one-liner topics. These would be clean slates for users to reply with their own rantings. Links to these threads would be listed in the new guidelines.

I'm guessing that if you considered the updates and "noob" stickies to be failures, you wouldn't be proposing this. The theory here is good - a small input of effort which yields a far larger output of organization and cleanliness. so your saying that there will be stickies for certain ultra redundant topics where people can go and post "i hate so and so" and "i think that this class is unbalanced" etc. etc.? i would think and hope that this reduces alot of the clutter, and makes the new rants forum for managable, but as with anything uncertain, well just have to wait and see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I wanted to say there's a problem with this, it'd be that there are a great deal of one-liner subjects, and nobody wants to wade through a great deal of stickies - make it general (catch as much crap as possible), make it concise (make it obvious what fits and what doesn't), pick out 4-5 of the worst offenders and sticky 'em. Advocate that, and I'm in. agreed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• [*:3aslfq74]Create a "Debate Club" subforum and accompanying rules for the hard core debaters.

Can we have the old storage room for our club? this fits in with my suggestion perfectly. its exactly what i was thinking. also, if your looking for a name... hmmm... how about... "the podium in the closet"? it implies a sort of secret, almost closed forum that isnt as open and general as the new rants forum. of course, being in a closet and not, say, in a bank vault, its still possible for people to find and enter it, of course ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• [*:3aslfq74]Initially, I don't envision a minimum post count to see how it is used in conjunction with the revamped Rant forum. In theory, the fly-by ranters can take care of what they need to vent on the main rant forum. If needed, we can add permission requirements later.

The implications of a "rant board" and a "debate board" are quite different. I can't imagine a drive-by ranter getting confused about which is for what, so I doubt requirements would be necessary. Rare cases can be solved with a "wrong forum" report. agreed the second. its inevitable that one forum will get the occasional post meant for the other forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only thing I'm worried about is the state of the main rant forum - it could stabilize, or it could deteriorate into a place for trolls to hang out. Mind you, that's as much a weakness of the posters as a weakness of the forum, if not moreso. Heavy trollers are not immune to banning, and I imagine some warning on the subject could be placed in the Rant Guide just so there is no room to complain...well, to be perfectly honest, if the new rants forum is going to be set up for the random one liners, steam blowers, and other unwanted rants, it would obviously be a target for angry trolls and spammers. but that would be the point thats trying to be put across, now wouldnt it? the only way that i could see it getting horribly out of hand would be if a flame war starts in a thread. to that end, i propose that, if its possible, a post limit be placed on all threads in the new rants forum. lets say that this limit is one page. after one full page of posts, the thread is automatically locked and/or put up for review by a mod for possible moving to the debate forum. this would help lock spammy, flamey threads and move well made, debate worthy rants much more easily. it would eliminate the need for a mod to patrol the forum as much to find "worthy" rants and overall save alot of work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, I think it's wisest if we encourage the debate types to initiate their own debate on any given subject, as opposed to trying to get a rant on that subject moved to the subforum. If a rant happens to be particularly insightful, we can make good use of the "quote" and "private message" buttons - again, the difference between the main forum and sub-forum is clear enough that we can expect users to pick the one which fits their desires, no matter how insightful they might happen to be. this is true, but like i said, youll always get those odd threads that are in the wrong forum

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Overall a very sensible idea.agreed the third

[Nadril]

Awsome idea's Ard!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It'll be nice to actualy have a good debate or two around this place again. We haven't had a good thread here in ages.

[Stallion4589]

i might not have caught this, because there is alot written up that way ^^^, but would the debate forum work like the archive of wisdom, where a particularly good rant gets moved to the debate forum, or would it be open to anyone to post? my support would lean towards the first idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

edit: what about more dedicated rants forum mods? perhaps pick some of the rants forum big guns that we know will stick around? *cough*neogeoswampjedinadrilstihletcetcetc*cough*

[swampjedi]

*cough*neogeoswampjedinadrilstihletcetcetc*cough*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm flattered, but I've had this conversation with "da bosses" before. The minute you become a mod is the minute you lose your ability to express yourself fully in a rant or reply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you mod rants, you can't really participate in rants. Conflict of interest.

[Sumpta]

Very nice thread, though I will admit that I merely skimmed through it instead of reading everything, so don't shoot me if I'm saying things that have been said before, or worse, completely beside the point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am all for the idea of a debate club. But enlighten me, what would be the difference from the suggestions forum? Splitting up the forum in even more subfora seems to me to be more confusing than less. And how will you maintain the level you'd want for this debate club? Moderating will be very high maintenance. Passing an IQ-test to be able to post, would make it undemocratic. Post count, let's not even go there. And making the minimum requirement of a post 10 lines of text isn't really possible either I guess...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I like the analogy with the archive of wisdom as a solution to the problems I see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and this may seem totally irrelevant and is probably due to the lateness of the hour (4.30 am here, that's gonna hurt tomorrow morning), but when I read the name of the topic with the rants guide, I had to think of the quote from Pirates of the Caribbean: "the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner."

[Ard_Choille]

Ch...ch...changes...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Revamped Rants Forum and New Debate Club Subforum

[neogeo0823]

so, i logged on tonight with the intent to check out whats been going on as of late and i see i have a message from stihl. i read that message and, as fast as the internet will take me(which, it turns out, is alot faster than i can run), head straight to the rants forum where my jaw promptly performed the following action:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you know, at this point, words cannot do much to describe how i feel, so i will use these three(4 if you count the one i didnt have to search for) other smilies i found while trying to find that previous one to acurately convey how i feel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to stihl, i say... gesture... umm... whatever, this: (and yes, i do actually check around fairly often, i just never find anything overly postworthy most of the time)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to Ard, i... umm... copy and paste(there we go!) this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and finally, to all the other tip.iters, i copy and paste this:

 

 

 

hopefully, this will make things alot smoother around here for us all :thumbsup:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(finally, as a side note, id like to apologize for the smiley spam, but its 2am here and i didnt have the energy to type out a huge responce. besides, i think those smilies actually fit in quite well)

[WolfhunterXZ]

Thank you for standing up for a true rant. A rant is in a way a complaint, but in a way not, it's mor sophisticated, it's a way of pointing out your complaint in a more intelectual matter, other than out right yelling "Blah this is dumb blah!" or whatnot. It's more like "I am a bit tired of doing [blank] it becomes to get a tad annoying, especially about the time when a person who thinks they can do a bit of something like [blank] to annoy me so. I mean honestly, who does that sort of moronic things to only make people angry? In my opinion, it shouldn't be like that, and people need to realize that what they're doing is wrong." a rant, well, actually I think I just wrote a complaint. Oh well! Or is it a rant? They're so close to the same but so far apart it's confusing to explain it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In other words, a rant tends to have opinion, and not just complaining and whining about things. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, people do need to stop being so ignorant and posting immature complaints other than an actual thought out rant complaint.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. 560 posts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Wolfy

[dutchdreams]

Sheesh people, I told you you were part of the debating club on page 2 of this thread. I guess it took alot of debating to finally come to terms with that ;) j/k.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope this new subforum will provoke some good discussions on various topics of the game. At the same time, I hope enough traffic is generated to attract 'new blood' to this corner, so that we can have people shedding light on subjects from all possible angles.