Makoto_the_Phoenix

First, I'm forced to agree with your stance - most in-game bot breaking ideas aren't really worth their weight in gold. Unfortunately, we as players only have the one avenue from which to approach the botting problem. A cultural shift - such as getting players to abhor botting - is one that may exist, but would take a lot more work to be successful at dramatically removing botters than making major adjustments in-game. Second, quarantining any of the troublemakers off onto their own server calls attention to them, and gives them essentially what they want - a place where their bots can level to their heart's content, as well as be absolutely rich. So what if it doesn't count in the real game? Self-satisfaction and instant gratification could be seen as the M.O. for most people that are willing to cheat. +1 I challenge the both of you to prove the following: - Adjustment of any resource by a JMod can reliably break *every* possible bot with a minimal disruption to normal players, everywhere. This also implies that a JMod doesn't need to be present at every location at every point in time. - Updates to the game engine for this new JMod weapon would be proven cost effective and relatively painless to implement, as well as deliver flawless results every time. - There would be relatively few staff required to fill this task; even though Jagex has 500+ employees doesn't mean that they're not all doing something. Prove the above 3 to me, at least, or it seems like you've foolishly trapped yourself in a "perfect" solution to eliminate bots. Now I'm not trying to start an e-argument, since that's about as productive as a cram student at a frat party. But I want you to defend your position with reasons why it'd work. Good, sound reasons. Reasons that not only make economical sense, but programming sense. Just keep in mind, if you can't defend it, then there's no sense in cramming it down anyone's throat, or flaming anyone for disagreeing with it. I wish you both good luck!

when has it been tried? Pretty much every random event ever made. those are automated breaks green is suggesting manual breaks. every manual break - wildy wall, LRC portal, etc. - has been SUCCESSFUL at breaking bot's scripts Let's not intertwine "successful" and "much of an effect", here. Something that's successful implies that not only will it work every time, but it can also be done in such a way that all bots, regardless of skill, can be disrupted in this manner. Something that's had a large impact, or in other words, something that's had an effect on botting implies that it's worked once in the past, but couldn't be seen as viable for the long term. The "manual break" idea - while admirable in intent - would be severely limited to available staff, as well as appropriate support for *every* resource location in the game. Not sure how it'd work, but if it could, I'd like to see it more fleshed out before I treat it as the "silver bullet".

This week's articles were both interesting and informative. To the first article: Two things. 1) No, that probably won't be the last time you complain about RWT/bots/cheaters/other ilk. At least, in some other form or avenue. Not that it's a bad thing per se, but that it's the most common complaint that the players have now - cheaters. 2) Claiming that there's a problem is vastly easier than offering a fix to it. Consider that a problem can be identified or diagnosed in very basic terms, and that the solution is often *not* a simple one to implement, regardless of how much we delude ourselves in believing so. I do agree with this premise though. If we do have an issue with bots, we should be prepared to offer solutions to them, with the basic idea in mind that we neither have the whole picture, nor will our problems be all-encompassing to deter/break bots and leave normal players alone. I must respectfully disagree with the notion of putting cheaters onto their own server. In my mind, this draws too much attention to them, and wouldn't serve to deter anyone from botting - they'd just do it over there, instead. Instant gratification; giving the lazier players exactly what they want, now in a packaged, legal form. Big deal. Removing them permanently from the high scores, on the other hand, that may be better. --- The second article I really did enjoy because it had sources (although #8 and #9 turned out to have expired RSOF links). Sources are important; we need them to prove that someone isn't just talking trash. Now, we speak in double terms when we say that Jagex is "in it for the cash", since they are a business. The reason that we'd probably say this is that in the past, they did give out an outwardly PR image that that felt more like, "Profits be damned! We want the game to be good for our community!", but that PR message has been dampened - at least in the writer's mind - with some of the more recent happenings at Jagex, either internally with the company, with RuneScape, with FunOrb, and/or with Stellar Dawn. In my mind, saying "they're in it for the cash" is a misnomer, and mostly unfair of a for-profit, multi-million dollar online MMO. They *have* to pay for their staff and equipment in one way or another. It's probably more appropriate to say, in one's own terms, that their corporate focus - or corporate culture - has changed. --- For everyone still bickering about how to break bots: "Breaking" them won't work. That's been tried and it hasn't had much of an effect. Instead, think along the lines of content that isn't grindable, and is actually enjoyable for a sustained period of time. Removing/disabling resources won't really affect bots, but it'll certainly cause an uproar amongst legitimate players.

Both good articles this week. :) Phishing Bait: Definitely an interesting read. The news of this major phish had hit about two weeks ago, but looking at the situation abstractly, the author (Necromagnus) is right - the only people that should be estatic about this would be the author of the bot. The Autonomous Problem: Definitely something that we've been through - rehashed (which is fine, it's definitely relevant to today) thoughts about how to curb bots and botting. The only problem here - a lot of these changes couldn't work. Take CAPTCHA for instance. It's been tried and it hasn't worked. Also, it's key to remember that any shift in the game (e.g. gameplay, interface shifts, etc) will have an adverse effect on the normal players, as well as it's a matter of time before the bots evolve to combat the changes, anyway. There are some decent suggestions thrown up about what to do, but the best thing to do would likely be reduce or eliminate the need to grind skills. --- Yeah, botting is a problem. Having Jagex deliver the much-fabled macro control system would be nice. Hearing it mentioned puts me in mind of Duke Nukem Forever, for whatever reason, though...

That's a beautiful looking red herring there. Never saw one with red and gold stripes before. I think I'll keep my hands clean, and say that I did approach this in an unbiased light. I don't see how you've demonstrated that I haven't. Demonstrates the futility of it...while leaving all your money in tact. People knowingly break the rules when they macro. The only deterrent would be nothing less than a ban. And sure, repeat offenders of macroing would get banned. Okay, that's a pretty logical deduction. The only thing this changes is how long it takes to get rid of a throwaway account or how quickly you screw up your main (if you're that dumb.) How would one know that one's wealth is left intact if they were indeed reset? And they abandoned that practice for good reason. Maybe they revisited it and decided to give it another try. My point here was to state that Jagex did, in fact, used to reset for botting - so many people forget that. Why they abandoned it, or for what reasons they did, is immaterial to that point. I'll pull an Off-Topic here and say...where's your proof? Especially since there's so much evidence to the contrary, the least of which the selfsame thread the OP quoted? Hmm...maybe I can't explicitly prove it. It would make canonical sense to disallow anyone found guilty of macroing from coming back to the game, though. I'll concede the point, then. Which is why people have all stopped botting...right? It has nothing to do with a 'hating jagex' bias. Believe it or not, you can disagree with a company's decision without being on the leftist bandwagon :rollseyes: There will be those that continue botting, there's no doubt in my mind about that. What I'm saying is that this will deter the players that don't want to risk their high leveled accounts. Perm bans have just about been phased out, for first offence at least. And you know this...how? A permanent ban still can be used on first offense; resetting accounts can be done randomly/sporadically and at their choosing. I don't ever recall Jagex having a definitive structure for punishing people; the severity of the rule breaking usually meant the severity of the punishment. If they feel like a perm ban is warranted on a first offense, then so be it. Seeing as how most ppl can bot for many months without getting caught, and gettng something like 99 str takes <2 weeks... "Not getting caught" is subjective. For all you know, Jagex already has the player dead-to-rights (so to speak); they're just doing follow-up investigation on any other accounts the player has. You're ranked in a jmod's cc, yet are more clueless about the situation then the average player :thumbup: Guy above me covered most points so there's not much more I could add to this What's being ranked in a JMod's CC have to do with anything? ------ And I'm done. I've said my piece on the matter, I'll leave it at that.

It's a bit embarrassing to see all of the assumptions being made on this thread about stat resets. Let's look at it from a different angle, shall we? Players can bot their pures/accounts to get specific stats they want. Unlikely; resetting accounts is a punishment/deterrent alongside permanent bans. Jagex is smart enough to simply ban someone because they wanted a specific type of pure. This doesn't deter macroing. I would adamantly disagree with this point. It demonstrates the futility of macroing, and lets you know that Jagex is well aware of what you're doing with your account. Also, it isn't like those that haven't tried to bot in spite of having stats reset weren't banned, anyway. Jagex should return to the old way of punishment. News flash! Jagex used to reset accounts for botting! Jagex makes money from the botters, so they reset them and let them continue. Jagex only gets money from recurring memberships. They'd terminate any ties with anyone that would bother macroing in a heartbeat - they've done it before. --- All in all, stat resets are a huge deterrent to anyone that wants to bot in RS. The player's account may or may not be banned at that point, but what's the point of playing on an account that had less stats than it started with two weeks ago? Just approach it from an unbiased angle instead of the anti-Jagex angle, and this probably isn't a bad idea.

Their QA department is even worse. This game is bugged beyond repair, every update is full of bugs (except those by Mod Ash lol). "Bugged beyond repair" implies that the game can't even be compiled, let alone played. Thought I'd point that out. No, could just mean a bug that they can't easily fix. whatever, semantics. No. There's a difference between a piece of software that's bugged beyond repair, and a bug that's highly elusive. It's not semantics, it's the bastardization of a very important programming concept. But time is wasted dwelling on something so trivial. No. They were most likely meant to outclass SS's (exlcuding div/ely), since they were added to REBALANCE PVP (chaotic weapons are really powerful). Jagex probably failed to do the math to realize that the shields barely soak ANY damage. now we have a PVP system which is basically broken in how powerful chaotics are. Jagex does NOT respond to reports (at least within a reasonable timeframe). There are SO many instances of this. i dont expect jagex to respond to my whining, but it still makes me feel better. if jagex showed that they actually responded to reports id be much more inclined to do so. they are simply FAIL at quality assurance / quality control Whether or not they were intended to outclass Spirit Shields is left for another debate; I personally don't believe that they were. Less expensive alternative to an SS? Sure. Outclass? Not a chance. As for the response to the influx of bug reports - not feasible. You burn man-hours and resources replying to each individual person (even having it automated); time better invested in actually fixing the darn bugs. It also seems that QA gets the short end of the stick pretty often...if they truly were fail with what they did, then the game would be truly unplayable every time an update rolled around. C'mon now, let's not overgeneralize too much. What I'm saying is that I've reported this and many other things through the proper channels and gotten no response. Jagex simply does not read them. What would you like me to do after 9 years of reporting bugs and watching them not be fixed? What is your problem with my course of action? That I'm not 100% satisfied with Jagex 100% of the time when they make truly idiotic mistakes and then refuse to fix them when they're pointed out? The shields suck for anyone who can get them. It's level 80 equipment and requires quite a lot of dungeoneering. Anyone who can buy them can likely access frost dragons, which means they can get a superior spectral/arcane/DFS by killing frosts faster than they can scrounge 200k tokens in most cases. Plus the better shields don't have repair costs. I just don't think you're appreciating how bad these shields are for their stated purpose, which is rebalancing the offensive power of the chaotic weapons. At that, they UTTERLY fail. Whining doesn't fix it, but it does raise awareness that you really shouldn't waste your tokens on a shield that is falsely advertised in the KB as a good shield but is actually junk. That's the issue here- now that Jagex has admitted they know how the shields actually work, they're lying to people on purpose until the KB is updated. It does not follow from your logic that, if one does not reply to you, that they have not heard your comments. It could very well be the case that Jagex has read every report you've sent in, and looked at how they could fix it. Your timeline (nine years) also implies you've played the RS2 beta; it'd be pretty foolhardy to consider that bug reports weren't listened to during the *beta*. Again, I say that "suck" is subjective, because it's clear that neither you nor I would find a use for the shields, but that doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't. In regards to them offsetting the power of the Chaotic weapons...I must say I didn't see the shields doing that to begin with. Likely a case of seeing things differently, I suppose. As for the issue in the KB, we agree there at least - it should have been fixed ages ago, but it wasn't. Oh darn - report the darned error and move on.

Their QA department is even worse. This game is bugged beyond repair, every update is full of bugs (except those by Mod Ash lol). "Bugged beyond repair" implies that the game can't even be compiled, let alone played. Thought I'd point that out. Lol, are you KIDDING? Jagex ignores bug reports. Period. Always have. I'll put it like this- if you had been banging on your neighbor's door, calling them, leaving notes for them, etc. every single day for the past several years asking them to turn down their stereo, and they still hadn't done it or indicated they'd heard you, would you keep on trying to contact them about it? No, you'd give up and probably call the police. Unfortunately we can't call the police on Jagex for having their heads in their asses, but instead we can talk about it on the forums and hope that mass awareness of something stupid they've done will change their mind (which it usually doesn't, but oh well). So what you're saying is, instead of reporting it through the valid channels, you're going to complain until something changes about it? If that were the case, if Jagex really didn't listen to bug reports, then RS2 would still be in beta. As for your example - it only takes one request for me for my neighbors to turn down the stereo; if they ignore that, *then* the police come in. It'd have probably made more sense if you said the police were ignoring you, and not the neighbors - the deputies carry more authority than your neighbor would in this scenario. :| "Suck" is subjective. The shields do offer a substantial amount of defense, and if you've got the 200K tokens lying around, it may be a valid investment for one that wouldn't mind having one. They weren't intended to outclass any of the Spirit Shield sets, and now we have concrete proof as to that they don't. Naturally I would've hoped that the issue would've been fixed in the KB by now, but it's probably best, next time, if there is an error, to report it and let it be dealt with. Whining about things seldom fixes things.

It's more than likely technical limitations than anything. I mean, your database can only be so large.

Bahahaha! :thumbup: :thumbup: Your head's too big. Either way, it's awesome so far. I'm likely going to keep tweaking my character's design until I'm satisfied with what I've got, but for the most part, this is honestly a GREAT update.

Another bonus experience weekend - good time to get some of the more "less desirable" skills out of the way and wrapped up. This would include for me Agility, Runecrafting, and some elements of Summoning (since I still have a lot of granite left over). I didn't take advantage of Pyramid Plunder for Thieving the last time, and I wish I had - but I may do that for a while, as well. I'm not too sure how well Dungeoneering will work with this bonus (if it will work at all). Rushing through dungeons that give you enough experience to make it worth your while isn't quick enough, and you'll have missed out on a larger chunk of experience that day. Then again, we don't know much else about it - yet. All we can go off of is what happened earlier in the year, and if Jagex has listened to feedback, then there'll likely be a handful of changes that either alter or change the way we'll skill. All in all I'm looking forward to it. There will be a lot of friction about whether or not it should happen, no denying that, but I'm quite enthused about saving some cash and time while skilling.

Rolling development doesn't work that way. I would imagine that every update after Treasure Trails had the Z-buffering element in it already, so modifying that would take a little while. Besides, it's only a few more days for you to wait. It's still August, go outside and enjoy what's left of your summer vacation (or have fun doing a winter activity if you're in the Southern Hemisphere). Oh, and the code argument still holds. RuneScape is pretty complex to work with. So yeah.

So far, looks like a good month of updates. The part that I'm most happy about is the giant disclaimer, for obvious reasons. :) Can't wait to get into Batch 2 with Dungeoneering (not sure why so many refer to it as 1.75 ).

They easily could have said these are the updates we hope to release this month but BTS phrases everything in the terms of what Jagex will do that month. IMO they should can BTS because the type of business jagex runs can be unpredictable and giving a set a things that you say you will do in x time frame when you know that your company has a history of delaying projects isn't going to be extremely accurate. Okay, I'll bite - first, since you believe that Jagex has a history of delaying projects, then why did you take what the BTS said at face value (that is to say, why did you take the BTS as a bona fide deadline instead of a desired outcome)? Second, they did get rid of the BTS for a while. This is the second month it's been back. It was canned for reasons just like this - players just couldn't accept that, sometimes, bad things happen with software. They tried the new approach and got just as much flak for not revealing the update(s) for the month, so they just went back to the old fashioned BTS. Didn't get them much further as far as appeasing the masses. Third, I will agree that the wording in the BTS is ambiguous enough to mislead someone into a false sense of deadlines. However, you should always take outlines (yes, outlines) with a grain of salt. Expect the unexpected, and anticipate delays/reworks/updates. That's just how software works.

An outline is not equivalent to a deadline. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Especially when you're talking about a piece of software. Then again, we've got some pretty imaginative members in our community. :)

One of the reasons that I cheered for the removal of the BTS was so stuff like this wouldn't happen. Yes, the BTS is an interesting layout, given over the entire month of what the updates will be - and guess what? People often like to believe in error that this is a bona fide, ironclad timetable that Jagex must be held to, on penalty of Death. It's something that isn't exactly known to many people that aren't devs, but one of the hardest things to do is to add new features to an existing piece of code. If the code is well-written, the process is more like dancing with an angry porcupine than swimming with emaciated piranhas. Yet in both cases, there's always the (high) chance that something is going to appear where you don't want, cause something to go missing, or be excruciatingly painful to complete. Jagex never did make any promises to us. They said they wanted to release the content out on this day, but ultimately couldn't due to a regression (and it's a good thing that they do regression checks). For those that will enjoy the content when it lands, it's a week, give or take, of doing something else more fun to pass the time. For those that won't enjoy the content when it lands, it's only a week, give or take, before we hear more incessant whining.

The Chaos Druids, I would expect, would be a much more reasonable alternative than competing with a number of spawn campers. In turn, the more Druids are killed, the more Ranarr come into the game, so I do expect prices to flux and eventually stabilize lower than what it was before. Frost Dragon bones will crash. That's definitely plausible. More people are harvesting them than want to pay 20K a bone, so anticipate those prices to take a nosedive. I don't see 3 extra Runite ores affecting the prices of Runite bars all that much. It doesn't really inspire smiths to make more rune anytime soon, as you still net a loss for your efforts. Just expect Rune ore to flux a bit, is all.

Rune rocks: Win. Place for F2P to cut Maples: Win. Gatestone portal at start point: Finally. Solo Medium floor: Time to get prestige all nice and taken care of. FIVE Magic Trees: Win. C'mon, this was a good update. Makes me want to go back there and get higher levels, so I could challenge the Frost Dragon (although expect the bones to fall like a stone in a few weeks).

I adamantly disagree with the beneficial effects of bots. Where do I start... First things first, it's actually plain to see that there is a mammoth divide between what skillers, PKers and monster hunters make. Between the three of them, you're going to have substantially better odds of profiting big time at Armadyl GWD or the Corporeal than if you worked your way to 91 RC. After all, it only takes one hilt/sigil. When you add botters to the mix, things like PKing and monster hunting look a helluva lot more intriguing, so we could continue to progress our characters and have our style of fun. If you're saying that they benefit the market by making an infinite good more widely available, then that speaks of inexcusable laziness on the part of players that bot, and the need to make some resources slightly more convenient for normal players to perform. Not to mention, lower prices for these kinds of goods really hurts the skillers that use this exclusively to make money. I'll take your canonical example of Red Chinchompas - to this very day, I burn with fury at the thought of competing with bots for the same resources. Aren't I entitled to hunt them just as much as some damn program?! It's just sloth. Botters bring prices down for those that don't want to gather on their own, while killing the game we like to play. You may think it's a good thing for the economy now - but, speaking for myself, I can't freaking stand it.

I just found a profile (by searching those characters) on Facebook showing a Runescape character and the name David. I find that creepy. Wouldn't you find it just a bit frightening that if you had a less secure profile, the person would be able to see your personal info, pictures, and other stuff? Blizzard's idea would only blur the line between the Internet and real life. I think that trolling should stay on its side of the line. This hammers home my point exactly. First, so you don't spaz out, that's me. Giving out others' information is a huge faux pas. Second, suppose that it was my real information. I'd be freaking out about now. But it's all fake. All of it. Even "David" is fake. Such is the miracle of not having to reveal real names. This move (from the looks of it on various news sites, blogs, and even Blizzard's own forums) will spell the end of their empire. No one wants to have their real life information just out there for the whole world to see and do with it what it will. The Internet is a scary beast with identities...

Why does anyone think that putting your real name and address on the Internet is a good idea? Geez. First, I can see how this is going to blow up in Blizzard's face in a big way. Without the so-called veil of anonymity around many Internet users, there will be markedly less trolling of the kind that they know about. More serious trolling, such as real life threats, kidnappings, muggings, you name it - that will be the new norm. It's scary to even think about it, really. Just one more reason why I won't be joining Blizzard's forum network anytime soon. We can contend that sites like Facebook and Myspace already exist that put our real information up on the Internet. You'd be right, but wrong in a sense. You can get certain bits of your information removed from those sites, not post any contact information, or even claim your "real" name to be something else. As an example, I could say that, right now, my name is 癒 誠 (you'll need Unicode to see that), and you couldn't prove that it was or wasn't otherwise. [Here's a hint: No, it isn't.] Since it's likely that Blizzard would use things like cardholder information to get the real names of people, the era of protecting one's identity on the Internet is coming to an end. The problem isn't knowing who is or isn't spamming/trolling. The problem is having your real information just out in the public, wide open Internet (again, you could argue that Facebook is the same, but it isn't quite the case). There are also other systems that could be employed to punish or discourage trolls without having to reveal identities. If a system like that came to the RSOF, there would be tons of backlash against it. Jagex is meant to protect their community. Revealing people's real names would do much, much more harm than good.

It was illogical, unfair to those without boots piled up, brought a lot of money in the game which due to other peoples panic buying will cause inflation. Yet, all of this could have easily been avoided simply by removing the price cap on Boots in the ge, yet the developers behind this update fail to understand the sheer stupidity of this update, and despite MANY people giving just reasoning and present valid points, they still hold their ground with statistics that seem highly unlikely and haven't been able to yet provide anything even close to a logical reason to raising the alch value and price of these boots to the amount they did. They feel this update was good and logical, when it wasn't even close to either. Do you honestly believe that Jagex doesn't put any consideration into updates like this? Yes, they knew how many players would make instant cash from the boots. Yes, they knew that it could unbalance the game. Know what? They made the change anyway. They did this after considering all aspects of it. I can understand/respect that you disagree with the rationale. Ah well, that's bound to happen. After all, we've all got our own opinions.

I wrote out a much longer response to this, point by point, but it was eaten by a back-click. So I'll keep it brief. If you're upset with the way RuneScape is run, stop paying to run it. Simple as that. No one's forcing you to pay Jagex any money at all if you disagree with their practices, so stop forcing yourself. Bugs per line of code in RS is actually a feat to behold - something over a million lines of code versus maybe 20,000 bugs means that there's an incredibly low bugs/lines ratio. Keeping a million lines of code that clean is actually pretty damn hard. I agree with your sentiments Dan, and it normally goes without saying that Jagex has earned my respect. All of the work they've put into the game, as well as listening to feedback and applying it where appropriate is actually an amazing feat, and while yes, some people may disagree with how they've done it, even so - what they've accomplished is something to respect. I also haven't been here much (fifteen-ish posts in the last six months) because the complaints have been coming on non-stop. Instead of thinking about the ramifications of an update, we've got people who think that they're hot-stuff economists, and want to fix the update...when the real problem wasn't the economy to begin with. It's the latest update. Next week we'll hear complaining about whatever update Jagex puts in, so this'll be over soon.

I do agree with the notion of a GE tax, but only on specific items and only on specific trades (probably non-consumable trades over 5M). But this brings to light a major fault in most major money sinks. It won't hit the demographic that needs to drain cash out of the game (merchants, hoarders, etc), but rather everyone else. If it's popular, and it's known to be a major drain, then the wealthy elite simply will sidestep it, whereas everyone else will happily dive right into it. It's something similar that happened with Construction; yes, that skill is the Mother of All Money Sinks, but it affected everyone besides the merchants. As I see it, the only way a money sink would be effective is if it were used in conjunction with something that limited the amount of wealth someone could hold at once. Say a cap on the number of held rares, for instance. That plus a money sink/tax on the GE would be more effective, as it has an effect on all players.

WHAT? Open source? Do my eyes deceive me? *downloads source and attempts to compile with gcc* [EDIT] After calming down a bit, this I feel is a huge step for Jagex. I'm not sure what it means in the long term, but for starters, it means that others may develop their own client to interact with RuneScape using Jagex's own source code. This...this is huge. I'm really excited about this.