Yoko Kurama

I hope thats a joke, because if it isn't that's just downright disgusting. Not a joke. It's been confirmed. It was originally supposed to be 50 energies per pet, and I thought that was pretty bad. Then they made it 500 per pet...

At the very minimum. They could be worth as much as 1.2B each or even max cash, depending on how much each energy is. Jagex is so out of touch that even supposedly the 'fun and cute' thing that they just put is hundreds of mils. I love the part where in the stream the two Mods were all like "you're going to want to get these, they're so fun and cute, and if you and 5 of your friends get together and you all have a different barrows pet, then something cool's going to happen!". Yeah because everyone wants to spend 600M on a Pet.

You're right, you haven't explicitly used that word. You have only implied it at every step of the way. If only you people would 'stop complaining' and 'do something about it', you could have these items too, no matter how ridiculous they are to obtain!

No, actually, the only one who is in the same place as they started is you. And that's because you are too stubborn, arrogant, and shortsighted to acknowledge anything that other people have said to you and insist on just repeating the same tired old stuff to everyone, arrogantly strawmaning or caricaturing them ('if you don't want to spend the same amount of time as me, you're just lazy!'). You refuse to look past your own little world. The rest of us have been making our points rather logically and straightforwardly, fleshing our ideas and responding to any replies that might actually come our way and defending our position.

That's exactly what the two J-Mods on today's stream about th Barrows said, however, I find that somewhat hard to believe.

Same. Something about that face and head.

I do think the CS update, if done properly, will have a positive effect on the price of the Wand. As to what extent, I do think wait and watch is the best approach, though I am not too optimistic.

No one is assuming that it will be 2.2B forever. It obviously won't. However, it's already been 3 months. And it will probably be several more before it drops to something reasonable. It's ridiculous that we have to have wait several months even after an update is released before we can access it because Jagex sucks at balancing things. Also lots of people are Voragoing at the moment. No, they really aren't. Chance of seismic is like 1/40 kills which is fairly often. Yes they are. Several clans are there, and there are several forum teams, and a few masses.

No one is assuming that it will be 2.2B forever. It obviously won't. However, it's already been 3 months. And it will probably be several more before it drops to something reasonable. It's ridiculous that we have to have wait several months even after an update is released before we can access it because Jagex sucks at balancing things. Also lots of people are Voragoing at the moment.

You're reinforcing my point regarding why making PvM endgame is severely flawed (compared to PvP). I always went to Castle Wars and Fight Pits whenever I could over the years, for fun. Unfortunately they aren't as popular as they used to be. I understand what you are asking for. What I'm saying that it isn't possible from a business view. The part that I was saying that you ignored was this, which I posted: the point of this game is to get people playing as long as possible. So far, it has worked very well, so much that people who are saying it is impossible to get X item will stay play despite that belief. The fact that people have these complaints about the game not being fun yet still continue to play and discuss it is remarkable. It is definitely possible from a business perspective. In Runescape's own history what we are asking for has been true, and in other games it is also true that top gear is reasonably obtainable. So your assertion that it isn't possible is flat out false. Most games don't require playing for hundreds of hours for one item. Also, this unreasonable requirement doesn't encourage people to get Seismics, it only discourages them -- so how would that increase business? It wouldn't. Most of us are serious players and we will continue playing Seismics or no Seismics, the only question is whether we will try getting them. If they are reasonably obtainable, we will, if not, we won't. It has nothing to do with business. How is a weapon that only like 5% RS can afford and will bother trying to earn good for business? If anything, for something to be good for business, it has to appeal to wide demographics, not a minority of players. There is nothing remarkable or contradictory in partaking in a game or community or activity while simultaneously trying to improve it through critique. Nothing whatsoever. We do it because we like RS and think it could do so much better. It's that simple. I really don't understand where you are getting the only 5% can afford from. Everyone can afford it if they put in the time like the apparent 5% have. Seismics will also drop soon, they will not stay that price, much like nex items. It's a made-up number, educated guess if you will, to drive home a point, representing the amount of people who can probably afford Seismics. Hence the word 'like' before it.

I understand what you are asking for. What I'm saying that it isn't possible from a business view. The part that I was saying that you ignored was this, which I posted: the point of this game is to get people playing as long as possible. So far, it has worked very well, so much that people who are saying it is impossible to get X item will stay play despite that belief. The fact that people have these complaints about the game not being fun yet still continue to play and discuss it is remarkable. It is definitely possible from a business perspective. In Runescape's own history what we are asking for has been true, and in other games it is also true that top gear is reasonably obtainable. So your assertion that it isn't possible is flat out false. Most games don't require playing for hundreds of hours for one item. Also, this unreasonable requirement doesn't encourage people to get Seismics, it only discourages them -- so how would that increase business? It wouldn't. Most of us are serious players and we will continue playing Seismics or no Seismics, the only question is whether we will try getting them. If they are reasonably obtainable, we will, if not, we won't. It has nothing to do with business. How is a weapon that only like 5% of RS can afford and will bother trying to earn good for business? If anything, for something to be good for business, it has to appeal to wide demographics, not a minority of players. There is nothing remarkable or contradictory in partaking in a game or community or activity while simultaneously trying to improve it through critique. Nothing whatsoever. We do it because we like RS and think it could do so much better. It's that simple.

Firstly, this argument is not 7+ years old because Jagex didn't always insist on such a ridiculous standard. Believe it or not, Runescape was once quite a reasonable thing, with regards to its requirements. As for what we plan to do, we plan to criticize this as we have been doing in the hopes that Jagex will listen. Not only is this our right, but it is also a completely constructive activity and one, which Jagex theoretically approves of and welcomes. You seem to forget how much abyssal whips and barrows were. And rares have always been something unreachable to many. Yes, this argument is very old, it just doesn't seem that way. It comes up every time something big is released and the price doesn't drop fast enough. Last time it was Nex stuff. Don't worry guys, maybe in 2 years when seismics are at alch price you can get some, since it seems no one wants to actually try and get them. Abyssal whips were expensive for a very short time (they were like 30M or so, for a very short while, nowhere near the current situation). They quickly plunged and became affordable as there were several people in the 85 slayer race. Also, you were guaranteed to get them if you achieved a particular skill, 85 slayer (and in those days, just about everyone was racing for them). So it was not an unreasonable expectation. Furthermore, we also had an alternative weapon which was almost as good in the Dragon Scimitar, which was extremely cheap (100k, I think), and even had uses that the whip didn't (strength training). This was actually great balancing on Jagex's part. Not at all comparable to the current situation. They aren't even in the same galaxy of unreasonableness, whips in 2005 and the current situation. As for Barrows, the best barrows set, Guthans was a paltry 15M -- which is absolutely nothing now, and certainly not then. There were a myriad of ways to obtain it very easily and it was by far the best armour in the game for various activities, and it had a groundbreaking effect (healing). Even at 1M/hour (which one could easily make, even low level players), that would only take 15 hours for the best armour in the game. That's extremely reasonable. So not comparable at all, again, to the current situation. I have gone over both the example of the whip and barrows in previous posts. Also, you are once again launching your desperate and tried "no one wants to do work" argument. For the millioneth time, we are not asking for free stuff, we are asking for a reasonable standard for obtaining items, so that the game is more fun, dynamic, and the community is healthy. That is NOT the same thing as being impatient or wanting free stuff. How many times am I going to have to explain this elementary concept to you? You keep ignoring it, or refuse to understand it.

Firstly, this argument is not 7+ years old because Jagex didn't always insist on such a ridiculous standard. Believe it or not, Runescape was once quite a reasonable thing, with regards to its requirements. 3B Wands and Orbs never happened before. This is something I have repeatedly pointed out is a recent phenomenon in my various posts. As for what we plan to do, we plan to criticize this as we have been doing in the hopes that Jagex will listen. Not only is this our right, but it is also a completely constructive activity and one which Jagex theoretically approves of and welcomes.

That picture of Seren is too racy for a goddess that seems to be about tranquility and peace, and calmness and all that... ;)

Stop whining, you loser. Don't you know that cool people can not only afford to throw hundreds of hours of their life for one in game item, but more over that they actually enjoy doing this? Funny, because you are quoting the guy who sunk hundreds of hours into perfecting how to kill Jad on many different types of accounts in many different ways. All for one item also, technically. Not only did he do that to help other people, but he did it voluntarily (there was no in game requirement forcing him to do it several times), and because he found it fun, and because at that point in his life he could play quite a bit of Runescape (I believe he works 60-70 hours weekly now). So it's not even a relevant or accurate point. It is in no way comparable to Jagex's ridiculous insistence whereby everyone is forced to play several hundred hours on activities they don't particularly for, so that they can access top gear. Nice ad hominem derailment though. Don't make assumptions about other people when you don't know them. It's fine, because you are also assuming that 1) people are forced 2) nobody is having fun 3) no one can play quite a bit of runescape, and you are ignoring everything else I posted, and when you reply you will probably ignore everything here too. We can all make fallacies and assume wrong together. Number 1 is not a presumption. I regard Jagex putting ridiculous requirements for things they know we want to be a kind of 'soft' force. Number 2 is not an assumption on my part. I can speak for myself and several others who do not find spending ridiculous amount of hours at the GE flipping, or making money so we can access high tier items to be fun. This isn't an assumption, this is a fact -- that's how I feel, and that's how they feel (therefore my statement reporting what myself and others find to be fun or unfun is a fact). Remember, I didn't say everyone finds this to be unfun, I said some people find it to be unfun-- and that's obviously true. I haven't ignored anything of yours. It's all been addressed a dozen times, only for yourself and others like you to come and make the same ridiculous argument about how we all just need to work harder, and how we have no patience and are just in it for 'instant gratification'. It's literally been addressed a thousand times, it seems you are the one ignoring replies and making straw man arguments.

Stop whining, you loser. Don't you know that cool people can not only afford to throw hundreds of hours of their life for one in game item, but more over that they actually enjoy doing this? Funny, because you are quoting the guy who sunk hundreds of hours into perfecting how to kill Jad on many different types of accounts in many different ways. All for one item also, technically. Not only did he do that to help other people, but he did it voluntarily (there was no in game requirement forcing him to do it several times), and because he found it fun, and because at that point in his life he could play quite a bit of Runescape (I believe he works 60-70 hours weekly now). I also believe he did that over the course of several years in aggregate, rather than being forced to do it in a 5 month period continuously in order to obtain some item. So it's not even a relevant or accurate point. It is in no way comparable to Jagex's ridiculous insistence whereby everyone is forced to play several hundred hours on activities they don't particularly care for, so that they can access top gear. Nice ad hominem derailment though. Don't make assumptions about other people when you don't know them.

Stop whining, you loser. Don't you know that cool people can not only afford to throw hundreds of hours of their life for one in game item, but more over that they actually enjoy doing this?

Interesting that even the game developers can only stream it in the best gear in the game as well as Jagex hax. That should have given them a hint as to the difficulty of this. And all the other rules seem super annoying.

It is good game design. There was a boss fight in a DA2 dlc which was found by fewer than 5% of players, and was so difficult fewer than 10% of those who found it completed it and obtained the rewards. Did Bioware decide this meant they should stop making this kind of content? No, they conducted a feedback poll and found overwhelming support for the presence of that content, as even the players who did not experience it or could not complete it appreciated that it was there, and that there was aspirational content present. The issue with RS players is they have a sense of entitlement, that they should be able to get the best gear. Well, no, the majority of players shouldn't be able to. Incidentally, the same argument is what is holding us back from truly divergent storylines in game. Players and game developers need to move past the idea that content needs to be seen and played by all players. It doesn't. Thankfully most high quality developers are now doing so. [/hide]DA2 you mean dragon age 2? That game was such shit that most people put it down after they found out it was crap compared to the first and the story line was just trash and couldn't carry it. So looking at who found what isn't really going to tell you much. Buying evidence. Why do people consistently insist that skillers should have access to the top end gear, when the top end gear is for pvm, not for skilling. Granted things like Dragon Hatchets/Pickaxes should be obtianable through skilling, but by no means should skilling be a way to obtain the top end gear. Theoretically, skillers should have no use for PVM gear, they're called skillers for a reason, not pvmers. Because that was the explicitly stated purpose behind skills? That they should help you by providing you with the armour and other items and resources needed for combat? That there should be a symbiotic relationship between combat skills and other skills? And when the game was first designed, it was precisely this way (the best armour in the game, runite, was exclusively obtained by skilling, and the wealthiest person in game was a skiller - and this skiller alone controlled the supply of runite armour in the game). It's only recently been taken for granted that skills are useless and should be useless cause we will all just chase 99 capes and ranks. Before that it was obvious to everyone that skills should, you know, actually be useful.

Please learn your idioms before you use them. It's an issue that hasn't been resolved or been elaborated upon by Jagex by giving a final solution. If you have nothing to contribute, don't bother to post. Also, since a CS update in on the books for this month, the discussion is completely relevant to this thread. 500 energies for a pet? I thought it was 50? And 50 was pricey enough as it is. That looks exorbitantly price for a cosmetic pet... 3000 energies for all 6? Ridiculous. Assuming that Jagex will require 84 energies to make one melee armour set, to keep it in line with 84 energies being used for Tectonic, and 84 scales being used for Sirenic.

Death is a joke because getting items is a joke. Like I said back in the day, items were fairly affordable (think about barrows and whips in 2006), and most people for bosses welfared them. I can remember going to Armadyl in Black Dragon hide, Glories and Rune crossbows. Upon death, I'd lose maybe a few hundred thousand in supplies which was a lot back then. But that was about it. And in those days, you would only have a few expensive items (so maybe your 4 item barrows set, and a whip. So you could easily substitute a much cheaper D scimmy for the whip, and hope to protect item all 4 pieces of your precious barrows set). Now that everything costs hundreds of millions, and all the top bosses require that you have top level gear (dual t90 or t80 + t80 armour), on death you would easily lose 100-150M each time. Given that most of the top bosses have very high KO hits and KO potential, it's unreasonable to expect people to fork over that much cash for dying each time. People would either start welfaring again (and probably get tired of that due to inefficiency) or they would simply stop doing PVM en masse. That's the reason gravestones were kept even after free trade was brought back -- make no mistake about it. Is it time for a new death system? Probably. But it's not like gravestones were some thoughtless system -- they definitely had a real purpose and design behind them.

That's not true, the part about Nex drops. The Nex drops were worth max cash or more for each single drop upon release because the drop rate was so low that everyone just gave up and left except a few people. As soon as Jagex announced a much better drop rate, Nex was flooded with teams, and the drops became affordable (if you did Nex) in no time at all. The increased drop rate was crucial. That was the thing with Nex, Jagex saw a problem, listened to the community, and moved in no time at all (less than a month I think) to implement a very good solution/fix. With Vorago, it's been months and only now are they getting close to doing something about it.

Because currently, the only viable way to do Vorago is to do it in LS (if you do CS, you will have to accept the pitiful CS price which is... very low). And what kind of right-thinking person would trust a forum stranger to split a 2B drop with them? So it greatly incentivizes people from doing Vorago, since it's risky to trust forum strangers with splitting them, and the prospect of a no splits for this rather difficult boss probably isn't too interesting. Some are willing to risk it, many are not. It's true that if the CS is fixed, the price will still be below the current market price, and this will encourage some to do FFA+S or LS+S if they have a trustworthy team, but for a lot of people a 2.1B drop is a good enough CS reward. Also, if the CS price is bumped to maxed cash, as more people do CS teams, it will not only increase the supply of wands, but it will cause the market price (non-GE price) to crash to 2.147B because everyone will know that they can put in an offer for 2.1B on GE and get it filled in time (since CS drops go on GE, and are sold for the highest offer, and the highest possible offer is 2.1B -- it will place a ceiling on the price of Wands). So why would they pay several hundred million more than that in a direct trade? They wouldn't. It will force the price down.

:wall: I came here to agree with Q, but point out that it feels like they're ruining a good idea by bringing it to an extreme, but this... You've somehow managed to get literally everything wrong. I am ranting about the low end of the game. That's literally all I've been doing for the last year or so. My entire stance is based on the fact that the game sucks before you max, when it doesn't have to. If I'm ranting about endgame bosses, it's because they're releasing those instead of looking at the sort of issues that would make it so unappealing for new players (In addition to the whole "lack of balance" thing). How much clearer do I have to be? You could clarify what low levels need. Besides reworks to entire skills/minigames (which are discussed pretty frequently on the HLF) and a new tutorial (also discussed a lot), I can't really think of any low level content that we need. All of the low level tiers are filled out, it's very easy to make enough money to support your buyable skills until you get into the 90s, xp rates are sufficiently fast, there are hundreds of low level quests. You're right in theory, but based on my experience that's not the case: http://forum.tip.it/topic/318853-observations-from-a-noob/?do=findComment&comment=5398214 (don't bump) I wrote that back in April so things could be different by now though (shrug) I think that's basically still true. The game is increasingly becoming polarizing, and the community is more and more a collection of veterans more than anything else. F2P has suffered a very drastic decline, as have the number of new players. So yes, I can see why it might be a ghost town for lower level players. That's certainly bad for the sustainability of the game and the community if the low level scene isn't vibrant. Being alone as a low level is even worse than being an alone high level. A lot of the game is deserted and previously fun things to do are deserted because of the efficiency craze, but at least, once you're a high level you know what to do, and you have your own routine and stuff, but for a low level it's much worse, particularly considering RS is such a HUGE game, and there's so much content -- having to start all of this alone must be rather overwhelming. I think the toxicity that exists within the community is a bigger reason for the decline than the updates. From the beginning of the game 13 years ago, the community has always been particularly nasty. People are extremely selfish, self-absorbed and generally hateful, and to many people "friends" are just a means to an end to be used however is most beneficial. Elitism is everywhere, and finding people who will answer honest questions about the game without mocking someone's inexperience are relatively rare. New players come in and see an overwhelming game, yes, but then they meet scores of players who not only are unhelpful but are actually belligerent to newcomers because they don't know what they're doing. Then they get taken advantage of by one of the thousands of scammers lurking out there and decide this game sucks. But that's been always true of the game and its community. Elitism, scammers, unhelpful condescension has always abundantly present. It doesn't explain why the rate of players has now started declining so rapidly. The explanation must lie elsewhere.

:wall: I came here to agree with Q, but point out that it feels like they're ruining a good idea by bringing it to an extreme, but this... You've somehow managed to get literally everything wrong. I am ranting about the low end of the game. That's literally all I've been doing for the last year or so. My entire stance is based on the fact that the game sucks before you max, when it doesn't have to. If I'm ranting about endgame bosses, it's because they're releasing those instead of looking at the sort of issues that would make it so unappealing for new players (In addition to the whole "lack of balance" thing). How much clearer do I have to be? You could clarify what low levels need. Besides reworks to entire skills/minigames (which are discussed pretty frequently on the HLF) and a new tutorial (also discussed a lot), I can't really think of any low level content that we need. All of the low level tiers are filled out, it's very easy to make enough money to support your buyable skills until you get into the 90s, xp rates are sufficiently fast, there are hundreds of low level quests. You're right in theory, but based on my experience that's not the case: http://forum.tip.it/topic/318853-observations-from-a-noob/?do=findComment&comment=5398214 (don't bump) I wrote that back in April so things could be different by now though (shrug) I think that's basically still true. The game is increasingly becoming polarizing, and the community is more and more a collection of veterans more than anything else. F2P has suffered a very drastic decline, as have the number of new players. So yes, I can see why it might be a ghost town for lower level players. That's certainly bad for the sustainability of the game and the community if the low level scene isn't vibrant. Being alone as a low level is even worse than being an alone high level. A lot of the game is deserted and previously fun things to do are deserted because of the efficiency craze, but at least, once you're a high level you know what to do, and you have your own routine and stuff, but for a low level it's much worse, particularly considering RS is such a HUGE game, and there's so much content -- having to start all of this alone must be rather overwhelming.