Yoko Kurama

I would be happy with that too, but they were very deceptive with it. They initially gave the impression that Sirenic armour being one of the few high-level stuff not to be boss dropped would be cheap and accessible. It is anything but that. The set currently costs, something like 250M, I think.

Yes, I agree. This happened to someone I know. He died at Nex, his Torva + stuff went into grave. Then on his way back, he died again (due to DC). Fortunately I was able to run back and get his ring, and some other drops worth 10-15M, while he was able to loot the Torva. Still, this shouldn't have happened. Both graves should be there.

Oh, and there is also a Gravestone glitch, where if you click on certain items, it automatically makes you DC, and you can't select the item. I tested it out myself (on a worthless item). Apparently if you select 'take all', you might be able to avoid this bug. People were also able to trade untradeable items yesterday (notably Bunny Ears and Scythes). Looks like an all-around cluster[bleep].

It's been happening for longer than just today. They have had like a whole day to inform us (the technical team is already working on it, various J-Mods are in game), would it be so hard to have an official announcement on RSOF or main page? I think not. I haven't lost anything, thankfully, but various people I know, and on RSOF have.

So apparently dozens of servers have been having server issues, huge lag spikes, people being unable to log in (from lobby), and all sorts of issues. Other servers have crashed, been down for hours and so on. OSRS has also been affected. Lots of people have died and lost very valuable stuff. As usual, there has been no announcement from Jagex that I can find (though one Mod was nice enough to sticky a player-made thread). Thread on RSOF discussing this. You have all been warned. Discuss.

I have already asked for a moderator to split the topic. I was only responding there to things that have already been said.

I have already addressed quite literally every single thing you have mentioned, I have no interest in repeating myself. Sorry, but to me, it just sounds like you have a personal vendetta against the obscenely rich. Who cares? It's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Maybe I am a secret Communist bent on killing all the rich people. Maybe I am Robin Hood. It's irrelevant, because my arguments stand independently of who I am or my personality. If you think who I am discredits my argument in any sense, you're basically making an ad hominem attack. Surely you can do better? Yes, I despise hoarders and price manipulaters. Most in RS do. I have made unconventional arguments regarding how to deflate the economy, so have wealthy, establishment economists in the West. My argument is no more unnatural or biased, than the people who think that people in RS should be able to gather however much money they want and do whatever with it because they have "earned" it. It's just that I have gone completely in the other direction. Communism wouldn't kill the rich it would take their wealth for the "greater good" which is what you want. Take away money from the "Rich" which in turn makes you more wealthy as long as you’re under the threshold of what is "Rich". Your argument is only furthers your own ambition of wanting your money to go further in an online game. You want the high end items to be cheaper and easier for YOU to obtain, rather then earning the money yourself. Example in 2 hours a day you can make 2 million x 30 days 90 million. Use that to begin to merchant lower end items. While still spending 2 hours a day to make 2million. After 2 months you should have should have close to 200mil now you can start to merch higher valued items and continue to spend 2 hours a day to make 2mil each day. Repeat for 8-12 months and you have well over a billion in coins. This game is all about time and how you use that time. **Just to note to anyone else I'm using the Max char stats for the 2million per 2 hour amount obviously if you are not max combat/ other stats it will be much harder to hit that amount of money every 2 hours. My argument has nothing to do with taking anyone's money, it's quite simple: you don't own your money or your account (that also applies to every other player, including me). Jagex does, they own it. They are the property owners of all the items in Runescape. I am not asking them to take away anything, I am asking them to delete some of the wealth they own so that the economy doesn't have inflation. My argument is Capitalism 101: I am asking, by persuasion, a private property owner (Jagex) to delete some of their wealth. As for whether I want to be rich or not, that's beside the point, and is an ad hominem arugment. I have been both rich and poor in Runescape, and I am doing rather decently enough for my preferences at the moment (I can Nex, have quite a bit of money, and soon I will be able to do Vorago with a permanent team if I desire). I already possess various high-end items. The whole point is that I shouldn't have had to go to the effort I did to get them, and nor should others. I have made a few billion from staking in the past, a few billion from Nex, and a few hundred million from KK. What I have always maintained is that although I can do this, this is not the way for a healthy game (pure luck-based grinding for money). We need alternate ways, and although I can afford various items, that is still far too much. It's about a healthy game and economy. We also need less inflation because expecting everyone to get lucky at Nex/Vorago, or spending 500 hours making 2M per hour or whatever, is NOT reasonable. Just because I can do it doesn't mean it's acceptable. My argument is about the game as a whole, not just my own petty preferences. So pointing at me "you just want money" is a rather desperate argument on your part especially when you know nothing about me.

I don't think you have a very clear idea of what communism entails... the whole idea is that there is no individual property, money or state. As such there are no taxes as we understand them and nothing to take away. You may be confused with the USSR or the image of it that appears in typical Western propoganda, but don't forget that the USSR and China and all those others were never actually communist. All of the typical 'communist' countries were 'on the way' to communism - also known as socialism - which is also what the second 's' in USSR stands for (there's also Maoism and others of course). As a matter of interest, read this sentence: "the institution of organised violence which is used by the ruling class of a country to maintain the conditions of its rule." Why, that's almost a Tea Party statement, on the federal state perhaps, isn't it? As it happens it is the Marxism.org defintion of a state. Extremists of the world, unite! I think you have done a decent job of refuting some straw mans, except the last two sentences of course. "The institutions of organized violence which is used by the ruling class of the country to maintain the conditions of its rule" is actually a pretty straightforward quote. Nothing controversial there. What it is saying that is power, particularly state-power is predicated on force. If you ever take a political science course, you will find that a common definition of the state is "monopoly on violence, and the monopoly on the initiation of force, over a particular territory". That's a pretty uncontroversial statement. Even Thomas Hobbes (classical liberal theorist) espoused something of the sort. That people had a 'natural' state where they were brutish, savage, and nasty. The only we can avoid all that is by state arrangement (where we surrender the right of force to the state). And how does the state operate? By force. What happens for instance, if you refuse to pay taxes? Prison. Even the ancient writers, like Herodotus recognized the importance of violence "The strong do as they want, and the weak accept what they must". There's nothing extreme in that quote, or even controversial or a matter of opinion, it's actually a neutral statement of fact. So you're quite wrong on that point, but everything else is quite right. I realize that this is sort of getting the thread sort of off-topic, so perhaps you or some other Moderator could split the thread?

Agreed. The best equips should ALWAYS be obtained through means other than random boss drops. Otherwise, it's far too easy for the 1% to completely manipulate and control the economy on them. Jagex doesn't understand balance at all, which is why they consistently release bosses with drop rates that are too low for their difficulty/time per kill and GE prices that are FAR too low to use the GE so they remain stagnant and never update. 1 issue with this ge value being wrong does not make it stagnant. Jagex specifically made the ge pricing system monitor normal trades as well as ge trades to ensure items do move to their rightful values. Equally ge value does not in anyway restrict what people can buy or sell for on the ge, people will sometimes put in street value sell and buy offers and they will go through in due course. The only way for ge values to stagnant is if the item value is stable or the item is not traded at all. I can name you a hundred items (hyperbole!), which, despite having been here forever and having been traded on the market quite frequently, are nowhere near their real price. It's obvious that the GE mechanic is totally slow and useless. We need manual adjustments for certain items (and Jagex promised us this YEARS ago). It's about damn time they fulfilled that promise. Also the problem with Vorago, as you no doubt know, is that you can't CS it with such a pitiful GE price for the wand of 650M. That's the problem. The GE price system and its utter stagnancy does affect that.

I think there will be one set of level 90 Melee armour (offensive), and there will be shields for all classes. Kind of weird since they said we would get new shields from PoP -- I guess PoP gets shafted again...

I have already addressed quite literally every single thing you have mentioned, I have no interest in repeating myself. Sorry, but to me, it just sounds like you have a personal vendetta against the obscenely rich. Who cares? It's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Maybe I am a secret Communist bent on killing all the rich people. Maybe I am Robin Hood. It's irrelevant, because my arguments stand independently of who I am or my personality. If you think who I am discredits my argument in any sense, you're basically making an ad hominem attack. Surely you can do better? Yes, I despise hoarders and price manipulaters. Most in RS do. I have made unconventional arguments regarding how to deflate the economy, so have wealthy, establishment economists in the West. My argument is no more unnatural or biased, than the people who think that people in RS should be able to gather however much money they want and do whatever with it because they have "earned" it. It's just that I have gone completely in the other direction.

I have already addressed quite literally every single thing you have mentioned, I have no interest in repeating myself. I will however, address the part about players quitting. You're giving a purely emotional response. Just because you would find this sort of update unjust and quit over it, doesn't mean others will as well. Most people don't care about wealthy hoarders -- they are universally despised. Besides, Jagex has implemented extremely unpopular updates before, such as end of Free Trade. Guess what? Out of 1 Million members, only 50,000 quit. In the past, many players were unfairly banned, and it was commonly known, they didn't just lose their money, they lost all their hard work and everything, did people quit en masse? Nope. Your assertion that there will be a solidarity strike of players quitting because price manipulators get their money taken away is completely unfounded. Most people care only for themselves and their immediate future. They aren't going to quit because Jagex takes away money from people that most of us hate anyways. Jagex's power already hangs 'over us'. They have done all sorts of things like ending Free Trade/Staking/Wildy (some of the most popular things EVER), unfair bannings, outlawing popular tools like Swiftkit, refusal to refund people for items lost to weird bugs and people still stuck around. We all understand that Jagex can do whatever they want to us, as long as they don't actually do it, most people don't care. Most people sure as hell won't leave over a minority of players losing their money. Let me put it in bold: your scenario of people leaving en masse over this is completely unfounded and baseless. It has a ZERO percent chance of happening if the update I described were to happen.

No, I don't accept your premise that this will have any adverse effect on the game at all. In fact, my whole advocacy for it is predicated on the premise that it will be one of the best things to have happened to RS. Only a minority of players will be adversely affected by this. And some will quit? So what? People quit Runescape all the time, over all sorts of things. That's not really an argument. Famous RWT'ers have also gotten banned and huge sums of money have been taken out, that way as well. I am sure some of them didn't bother returning either. Plenty of people quit over EoC (a mass exodus, perhaps), and yet EoC is still here -- sometimes updates cause some people to quit, that's a price I am willing to pay. It's a unique situation, sure, but it won't cause the majority of players or encourage them to quit. Only hoarders will be punished. If they all want to quit en masse, then good riddance to the parasites, I say. The rules argument is also unconvincing. The rules are not some infallible thing, they can be 'wrong' sometimes. If they aren't working (and the current 'rules' aren't working), then you put in a completely new system in place, it's that simple. I believe Jagex did this one before, at the tail end of the Flower-game saga, they started muting people before they announced the change in the rules. Was it fair to those people? Probably not. I don't care. If you are parasitically harming the economy, and stealing asset value from other players, and making Runescape a really unfun place to be (as some of the super-wealthy do), then I don't care about your rights or any such nonsense. I hope the worst happens to such people (in-game), I have no sympathy for them. I think I could convince people to come to my side. My argument is by no means unpopular, as price manipulaters and hoarders are universally hated, because they are parasites, and they cause instabilities in the marketplace so that they can profit off the hard work of others. Also, my reason isn't just "they have too much". My argument is more complex than that and quite utilitarian. I don't like the adverse way in which these people are using the their power/wealth that has been afforded to them through Runescape, so I am proposing taking it away. A straightforward and simple solution.

Dicing and manipulating prices all day long is not what I would consider to be "legitimate" wealth. Simply because it wasn't against the rules doesn't mean it was an acceptable practice. Only Vorago players make tons of money, the rest of them don't make anywhere near the amount manipulators and hoarders do. Wealth, and the rules that govern it, are completely a social process; if the current rules aren't producing a healthy and fun game environment, then they should be discarded, I don't give a rat's ass about natural rights or anything. No one has any rights, except those that are given to them by Jagex. As for your idea of incentives, it's completely doomed to failure. If you release a few cosmetic items worth 1B or whatever, someone with lots of money will buy maybe one or two, they won't spend their whole bank on it. Because then they wouldn't be in the manipulating business (the source of their power). They aren't stupid. They aren't just going to hand over their wealth. The incentives would take some of the wealth. As well as the g.e. tax taking a decent amount from them when they do buy out everything. I'm sorry you don't believe that just removing what someone's earned in a game is a bad idea. I could understand in real life if someone's health or well-being were counting on it, but in a game we should be convincing them to spend it not just remove it because "you have too much". In order to deflate the economy to a healthy level, taking some money is completely pointless. Large sums need to be deleted, that is the only way out of this mess. Anything less is a waste of time. I don't think they "earned" it (that is a loaded term), so your moralistic argument has no effect on me. Property has always been a social institution which societies have always created, instituted, regulated, and governed based on public utility. There's nothing more to it. So, no, I don't recognize this nonsense about how all these super-wealthy people "earned" their money, and have a "right" to keep it. Those are two concepts that are completely vacuous to me, and I reject them completely in this context. Moralizing to me on this issue won't get you far, because I reject the moral terms you are using.

Dicing and manipulating prices all day long is not what I would consider to be "legitimate" wealth. Simply because it wasn't against the rules doesn't mean it was an acceptable practice. Only Vorago players make tons of money, the rest of them don't make anywhere near the amount manipulators and hoarders do. Wealth, and the rules that govern it, are completely a social process; if the current rules aren't producing a healthy and fun game environment, then they should be discarded, I don't give a rat's ass about natural rights or anything. No one has any rights, except those that are given to them by Jagex. As for your idea of incentives, it's completely doomed to failure. If you release a few cosmetic items worth 1B or whatever, someone with lots of money will buy maybe one or two, they won't spend their whole bank on it. Because then they wouldn't be in the manipulating business (the source of their power). They aren't stupid. They aren't just going to hand over their wealth.

That's the point though. Most high-level people just don't have a lot of money sitting around. Maybe a few hundred mil at the most, usually saving up for some gear or experience (meaning it will be spent either way). Targetting them is useless. It's the super-wealthy that have mountains of cash lying around and who actively inflate the economy, so targeting them makes sense. It's not random, it has a purpose. Except it would be just as easy and more fair to just target everyone with stuff like the g.e. sink and other basic sinks where you might not remove as much from the individual but by removing a bit from everyone you'd have the same effect. Then maybe they should release some really expensive cosmetic items. 1 billion for a crown etc, stuff thats worthless for gameplay but will allow those with cash to show off. Not a tax where value is removed from them, but a way to spend the cash without ruining the balance of the game. It would not be "fair" (though that's subjective). It certainly wouldn't be the same effect, objectively. All your suggestions won't remove nearly as much money as simply appropriating it away. My idea is far more effective.

Actually, bows crashed today because presumably all the hoarding piece of **** manipulators dumped them. So, yeah. I paid 265, cant even sell for 250. GF, I'm just gonna hold on to it. No reason to sell it, really, unless the new Barrows bow just blows it away... Which, it might. Yes. The next day, once they hoard the stuff and sell it at peak price, it always crashes. Just another cost that they pass onto other people. As for Barrows, it won't be releasing anything that will displace the Ascension Bow, you can be sure of that.

Just to give you an idea of how idiotic the current economy is and how easily the super-wealthy manipulate it, just consider last night. Bows were around 250M each (Ascensions). All the super-wealthy decided that their stacks of however many billions that they had weren't enough and that they needed more, so what did they do? They all bought pairs of Ascension bows. Because they anticipated *some* renewed demand (because of Sirenic). Due to their buyout, Ascensions shot up 50-60M for each bow (the bows are 310-320 each now). So they all sold it for 100-120M profit off each bow. For doing what? Absolutely nothing. They made more money from those bows than the people who actually do all the hard work by buying/getting keys and camping Legionaires in order to bring the bows into the game. At least the Camper is actually expending effort and producing a good for the RS community. And he makes less money than a bunch of organized super-wealthy people who make a killing for 5 minutes worth of work. Ridiculous. That's the definition of parasitism. They basically manipulate prices all the time, making things hard to get for normal players (everyone who wanted bows had to pay 100-120M extra). It's essentially holding goods hostage so they can steal money from people who actually produce stuff in RS. That's how it works. So, yes, **** their hoarding and manipulation.

PoP was the perfect design before they gave in to the Nex whiners and nerfed it to hell. No set effect, and made it tank. Liars.

Hopefully. The game needs high level content and by its very nature it will be inaccessible to most. I can't afford ascensions, seismics, or any of the t90 gear, but I don't think that means its bad to have updates that cater to those groups. The only issue I have is how boss-centric it all is. It took quite a while to get skiller armours like pop and then they started replacing it so soon afterwards. The issue isn't that its so expensive, the issue is that skilling makes so much less than bossing that skillers can't afford it. Yes it is a bad thing. Expecting people to save up for 3.6b for T90 wands/orbs is ridiculous. It's not comparable at all to getting PoP (which were reasonable). It's one thing to give high-levels something to work for, it's another to have an items that are worth 3.6B. it's not ridiculous that tier 90 is 3.6b, it's ridiculous that t90 mage is 3.6b, while t90 melee is 150m and range is 450m. It undermines all the balancing (lol) of EoC. Partially agreed. If they made melee and range at T90 3.6b too, that wouldn't be better, it would be worse. The point is that, people should actually be able to reasonably get items for their tier.

Hopefully. The game needs high level content and by its very nature it will be inaccessible to most. I can't afford ascensions, seismics, or any of the t90 gear, but I don't think that means its bad to have updates that cater to those groups. The only issue I have is how boss-centric it all is. It took quite a while to get skiller armours like pop and then they started replacing it so soon afterwards. The issue isn't that its so expensive, the issue is that skilling makes so much less than bossing that skillers can't afford it. Yes it is a bad thing. Expecting people to save up for 3.6b for T90 wands/orbs is ridiculous. It's not comparable at all to getting PoP (which were reasonable). It's one thing to give high-levels something to work for, it's another to have items that are worth 3.6B.

That's the point though. Most high-level people just don't have a lot of money sitting around. Maybe a few hundred mil at the most, usually saving up for some gear or experience (meaning it will be spent either way). Targetting them is useless. It's the super-wealthy that have mountains of cash lying around and who actively inflate the economy, so targeting them makes sense. It's not random, it has a purpose.

It will most likely be the level melee set, and probably be as inacessible to most players as Tectonic/Sirenic is.

It would be more accurate for Jagex to scrap the Premier Newsletter, and instead institute a "Super-wealthy club". Where they can talk about all the updates that are allegedly for everyone/high levels but only super rich people can actually enjoy/access (Vorago/Tectonic/Seismic/Sirenic).

How do you get a newsletter from Jagex? Email?