Yoko Kurama

If the economy were deflated, the value of rares (and wealth stored in rares) would instantly drop. Shards, since they have a fixed value (I think), could just be treated like money. So I am for targeting the wealth of super-wealthy players regardless of whether it is stored in GP or items. As for monsters, well, most of us high levels actually like to do something fun once we get Maxed, and that involves boss hunting. And for that we need reasonably good armour. You try getting onto a Nex team with Ports armour (unless you're tanking), and you will be rejected 7/10 teams. So yes, we need accessible armour. It shouldn't be totally ridiculously hard to get, you know. Agreed. Also, they need to just get rid of the 2.1B limit for drops. We should be compensated for the street price. They promised us years ago that they would manually fix GE prices for special items and they have yet to do that. They make this supposedly challenging and great boss, and they [bleep] everyone over by making the mechanics for it totally retarded, so much so that we don't even to do the content.

Precisely. That is a solution I could get behind. It's the same reason why I support keeping Gravestones despite the fact that they do reduce risk substantially. Why? Because gear in Runescape (top gear) takes quite a while to get, hundreds of millions of GP, I can't be replacing that every time I die at high level bosses (most of which have KO abilities). If gear were easier to get, it'd be acceptable to add an element of risk. Right now, the best money makers for more high levels are Nex and KK and they are rapidly becoming less profitable each day. I am a Maxed Player, and it's hard to think, but if I were to say, get hacked tomorrow, it would take me ages to get even half my stuff back. That's because skills in RS are completely useless. I have 99 Smithing (which I got before Artisan's workshop when it cost a lot), and if I were to lose my stuff, I couldn't even make a half-decent set of armour. That's the problem with RS. There's just not a lot of ways to make money or good rewards, so it takes forever to get anywhere, so people are averse to risk and loss.

To address a few things in general, and some specific points as well: - I wouldn't mind the degrade-to-dust mechanic if it weren't for the fact that Tectonic costs 85-100M, and Sirenic currently costs well over 400M? That much for an armour that is going to degrade to nothing in a while? Ridiculous. That's my problem with it. Sirenic is new, so it won't be 400M+ forever, but it will be an extremely hefty sum. A sum that most people can't really afford, particularly many w/ 90+ def/ranged, the target demographic. The only decent ways of making money for high-leveled players are Nex, KK, and Vorago. Nex and KK drops are lower than ever before, and it's simply not feasible spending hundreds of millions on armour that is going to degrade. We simply cannot afford it. As for Vorago, the rewards are great, except it's so poorly designed that most players can't find reliable teams for it. Can't use forum teams (completely unreliable, awful, and 110% chance that there is no split of the drop). So once again, only a privileged few will be able to make any use of Sirenic. -The claims that this update are a money sink are ludicrous. This pitiful money sink does nothing to combat the hoarding of wealth by a minority of players -- it won't make even a dent in their pockets. All it does is annoy other people. Still, my argument isn't against money sinks, it's against the fact that this armour is not repairable like Nex/Pop. With a decent repair price, you could still have a money sink without having a ridiculously expensive armour degrade into nothing. -If Jagex is serious about money-sinks, they need to target the banks of players with more money than they will possibly ever need or use, or they need to shut up. Either do something real and effective about the absurd inflation in this game, or STFU and stop punishing the rest of us. --- Welcome to Communismscape.... This is the worst idea i have ever heard. If you want to introduce a tax just make it based on items values in that items valued over X have a 10% tax paid 50-50 by the seller and buyer when sold through the GE. Your idea is overly complex and punishes people for have in game wealth.... Actually, such a suggestion, which I support, would have absolutely nothing to do with Communism. It's a strictly deflationary method. The problem with RS is that a minority of players has hoarded an incredible amount of wealth (mostly through shoddy/serendipitous and replicated circumstances), and all the current ways of making money (except Staking/Vorago -- highly unreliable and inaccessible to most) don't even come close to generating the money they have. What this means is these wealthy players dictate all the prices on the high-tier market, because they can afford to pay whatever. However, since there are no methods in RS of making as much money as they, it means all the other high-leveled players who weren't here for dicing/flowers/when Nex(or some other boss) had ridiculously high rewards, can't compete with them. As for the suggestion that Sy proposed, I fully support it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Communism. Remember, Runescape is the private property of Jagex. That includes your account, your skills, your money -- everything. That is the contract you sign when you make a new account. If Jagex decides to take every single GP you have tomorrow, that's not Communism, that's just a private property owner exercising their private property rights (i.e., Capitalism 101). It's like if I allowed people into my garden and allowed them to pick all the apples and fruit from the trees and what not, but only on the condition that they hand 95% of what they pick to me at the end of each day. This is a perfectly free contract, and they have the right to refuse this arrangement and decline entry to my garden. If they do accept, and agree to my terns and conditions, that's not Communism. It may not be nice, but it isn't Communism. So don't try to derail the debate by throwing in a scary word like "Communism", particularly when it has absolutely no relevance to the debate. Communism is completely an inappropriate term to describe this sort of situation. Jagex owns Runescape, and they have the right to do whatever they would like with any and all items, I would support them applying various deflationary measures to restore a viable and functioning economy again. If that hurts the feelings of super-wealthy players, that's too bad for them. One suggestion, would be to do a system of Stamped Money (I think Keynes and a few other economists -- none of them Commies, proposed it in the 30's). Basically at the end of each month (or a certain predetermined period), in order for your money to be reusable for the next month, you have to "stamp" it, which means something like, for every 100K GP, you would toss over a certain amount, maybe (40-50K, for instance). It wouldn't apply to all Scapers), only to people who have a certain amount of wealth (i.e., absurd amount). Basically, it would encourage you to spend your money, rather than hoarding it. Basically, wealthy Scapers would be forced to spend their money on things which they actually need, or watch their money vanish into thin air. It would straighten their avaricious hoarding instantly. Also notice, that I am not advocating redistributing their money or anything like that, it would simply be deleted and be taken out of the economy.

This is the same group of geniuses that made PoP useless just after they hooked us in with the promise that they would be the best armour, and after we put in 2-3 months, they made it useless. Same group of people who thought that 100M for Tectonic, a degrading armour, was a good idea. Same group of people who made Vorago a difficult and time-consuming boss, made it so you can't rejoin if you die, made it so the GE price was ridiculously low so you can't CS, have to rely on LS/FFA, refuse to fix GE prices for CS, all at a time when teams are super difficult to find and so on. The less you expect from these people, the better. Annoying people is what they do for a living.

It's patently clear to me now that they have a visceral hatred for anyone who isn't a mega-billionaire. That would explain this 20% death mechanic, Vorago, Seismics, Tectonic, Sirenic, and so on...

What's the point? Nex drops are lower than ever before. Worst time to add penalties.

Is anyone else surprised that this poll was completely fair, legit, and they even went so far as to set an incredibly high threshold for it to pass (75%)? It seems the response to it must have been inundated with disapproval and Jagex is actually trying very earnestly to listen to the wishes of the community. This is markedly different from the OSRS experience, where they basically did what they wanted.

Every single conflict involving the Gods has been extremely chaotic and destructive. Why should we assume that this would be any different? Obviously, Gelinor won't be destroyed (we wouldn't have a game otherwise), but from the perspective of the lore, that's a potential outcome. Sliske is basically intentionally trying to manipulate events that would probably ensure a great deal of devastation. Calling him 'good' (from the point of view of conventional morality) is a completely implausible conclusion, and one you would need to substantiate. He seems to be more of a sadist rather than some lighthearted trickster, or someone with a sense of humor.

According to AlmostLost, somewhere in HLF he has a post, Momentum just isn't worth it for most things anything (I think he specifically mentioned Dung and Slayer). I presume, him being one of the top players, that he tested this out somewhat meticulously or got it from someone else who did.

Even though Sy just provided concrete info that Zaros was already exhibiting signs of becoming a recluse before he died? Even the ghostly robes mini quest provides snippets of dialogue that suggests that Zaros had placed trust on a handful of people and only they were to commune with him. A change like that doesn't just happen overnight, but as Sy said, the second age is the one we know the least about so we still have a lot to learn. Yes, I saw Sy's post. I am not suggesting he is wrong on the lore. What one must keep in mind is that a lot of lore is told to us by certain parties, and there are always biases around and that puts the accuracy of the lore into question. Like Vigora, for instance. His lore is questionable because he was vehemently anti-Zaros; so is his account of Zaros' fall really accurate? What I was suggesting, as pure conjecture, was that this part about Zaros retreating to being a recluse before his fall might be something that Zarosians exaggerated in order to save face. Again, it's just a theory. So we're just having some fun speculation. This part about Zaros learning not to rely on too many followers and ruling from the shadows seems like something he might have learned post-betrayal. Even if the lore is true, and the Zarosian account of Zaros' retreat pre-fall is correct, I think it would be more sensible if the story writers made it so that Zaros learned that lesson after his fall; it would make for some good character development: Zaros is betrayed and learns an important lesson to not be so heavy-handed.

That's a good point, technically, the player (if they sided with one of the non-Guthixian factions) does attempt to bring a God back. I will concede that point. My other points still stand though.

Generally speaking, the player seems to have done various virtuous things and have helped quite a lot of people out.

It was not necessarily inevitable. It was true that gods, upon their return, would try to seek control, but a God War is a completely destructive, devastating, and full mobilization of one's forces. That certainly wasn't inevitable. The Gods could have tried seeking dominance through one-on-one battles (like the BoL). If Saradomin had, for instance, been able to kill Zamorak there, he may have been able to force Bandos and Armadyl (being much weaker gods) to simply submit to his will rather than be destroyed. So there were plenty of options aside from a God War, and even the Gods in the quest dialogue seem to share this assumption (as evidenced by their hesitance at Sliske's plan). As for rules. Sliske hasn't set any rules. He has proposed a free-for-all brawl, the most chaotic thing he could possibly do. So chaotic that even the other gods are totally weary of it and outright refuse Sliske during Missing/Presumed Death. Also, Guthix may not have known about Zaros' history, but it seems probable that once he knew Sliske was there to kill him, it was either to a) steal his power or, b) break the edicts (the only two possible reasons for someone trying to kill Guthix). Also, Guthix was aware of everything that happened within the resting place, and Sliske certainly reveals the Zarosian faction's views to the player (that they want to persuade Guthix to bring Zaros back), so Guthix would have overheard that and been made aware that Sliske was serving some god named Zaros, even if Guthix didn't know anything about Zaros specifically. So, Guthix knew. Guthix was aware that a bunch of zealots were charging through his resting place in order to kill him. Also, again, the point isn't what Sliske would want. It's what Guthix would want. Guthix would not offer a Guardianship to a shifty figure navigating through his resting place with the Staff of Armadyl in order to kill him. Your theory is based on pure conjecture (that Sliske would want immunity rather than godhood -- and if that's true, how would he even know that this was a possible offer? As far as I am aware, only the player, in his moments alone with Guthix, is told what power he is recieving, it's certainly not something anyone knows before this). Their reluctance (except for Armadyl and Icthlarin) seems to mainly be that its not on their own terms. The time limit under Sliske's plan would prevent full mobilization. They don't have time to marshal all their forces. The fact that the competition can give the Stone to anyone means that the Gods may not want as many mortals involved for fear that mortals will get the kill. I don't believe for a second that full scale God War isn't coming unless something forces their hand to act earlier. The rules Sliske has set is mainly the time limit and the statement that he will hand over the stone to anyone that kills the most Gods within that time frame. It sets a rush that will prevent the Gods from fully cementing their position and having a long drawn out war. The latest podcast said Guthix was never aware of Zaros. Maybe he did know of the name near the end. However, the quest shows that Guthix has no issue making a World Guardian out of a god's follower because he is willing to make you one even if you proclaim allegiance to one of the Gods. Perhaps he believed that Sliske had proved he could be a good mortal to fight the Gods. Who better to defend the world from Gods than someone who has set out to kill one. Ultimately we don't know what Guthix would do. He did trust Ocellus at one point as well. I just find it weird that Guthix would allow a mortal to become a God from his death. I also find Sliske's actions interesting and feel like him bringing Zaros back or trying to attain Godhood are too easy an answer that's dangled right in front of us. I completely agree that my theory is based upon incomplete information, and there are a million other ways this could go. I really can't wait to see what Jagex has in mind. I'm just positing a possible theory. The time limit seems more than enough time for mobilization. In the BoL, all that it takes to mobilize forces is a simple portal that allows teleportation. The fact that Sliske is announcing his game well in advance also allows us for planning and mobilization; so I disagree that his rules are there to prevent mobilization. How does it prevent a full-drawn war? Once a war starts, and say, a few gods die, and a few remain and the time limit is over; it's very possible that they will simply continue fighting in order to be the sole survivor (they're halfway done, why not finish the job? seems simple. It's very hard just to stop fighting. Especially when one's pride and/or hatred gets in the way. I disagree that Sliske's rules set any sort of limit. Yes, Guthix doesn't know about Zaros. But simply from overhearing the dialogue within his cavern, he would be aware that Sliske was trying to bring back a god that was powerful enough to be effected by the edicts (since only gods powerful enough are banished), and so that would be a no-no. Guthix would not make someone a Guardian who was a) powerhungry, b) in posession of power Elder artifacts, and c) Trying to kill Guthix in order to either bring back a particular god, or steal Guthix's power to ascend to Godhood himself. These actions are all very un-Guthixian. And yes Guthix once trusted Oscellus, but once his nature became apparent, he was shunned by Juna & Company. -- And yes, your theory is possible (anything is technically possible), though it's just very unlikely. It's also possible that Seren is an alius for Zaros, but not very likely or something they would actually let happen. Sliske being a Guardian of Guthix is as unlikely as Seren being Zaros.

It was not necessarily inevitable. It was true that gods, upon their return, would try to seek control, but a God War is a completely destructive, devastating, and full mobilization of one's forces. That certainly wasn't inevitable. The Gods could have tried seeking dominance through one-on-one battles (like the BoL). If Saradomin had, for instance, been able to kill Zamorak there, he may have been able to force Bandos and Armadyl (being much weaker gods) to simply submit to his will rather than be destroyed. So there were plenty of options aside from a God War, and even the Gods in the quest dialogue seem to share this assumption (as evidenced by their hesitance at Sliske's plan). As for rules. Sliske hasn't set any rules. He has proposed a free-for-all brawl, the most chaotic thing he could possibly do. So chaotic that even the other gods are totally weary of it and outright refuse Sliske during Missing/Presumed Death. Also, Guthix may not have known about Zaros' history, but it seems probable that once he knew Sliske was there to kill him, it was either to a) steal his power or, b) break the edicts (the only two possible reasons for someone trying to kill Guthix). Also, Guthix was aware of everything that happened within the resting place, and Sliske certainly reveals the Zarosian faction's views to the player (that they want to persuade Guthix to bring Zaros back), so Guthix would have overheard that and been made aware that Sliske was serving some god named Zaros, even if Guthix didn't know anything about Zaros specifically. So, Guthix knew. Guthix was aware that a bunch of zealots were charging through his resting place in order to kill him. Also, again, the point isn't what Sliske would want. It's what Guthix would want. Guthix would not offer a Guardianship to a shifty figure navigating through his resting place with the Staff of Armadyl in order to kill him. Your theory is based on pure conjecture (that Sliske would want immunity rather than godhood -- and if that's true, how would he even know that this was a possible offer? As far as I am aware, only the player, in his moments alone with Guthix, is told what power he is recieving, it's certainly not something anyone knows before this).

The balance of the natural world isn't good or bad though. It just is, and maintaining it in times of strife could lead to some bad decisions later down the line in order to maintain that balance. To sort of jump back a few posts before, I think Icthlarin's choice of side is a lot of what Guthixians would have chosen. The best way at that time, to the best of our knowledge, was to get them to not play Sliske's game. A deadly contest for the Stone of Jas, regardless if it was really on the table, is one of the quickest way to disrupt the natural balance of the world. So even though novices might not be able to choose Guthixian, I think once they reach that point of learning what happened during TWW, it will put the choice you're guided to originally (icthlarin) into perspective. By 'good' all I mean is something that the person in question would 'approve of'. Guthix is the person in question, and he definitely spends his life desiring a balanced world, and as such that's something he would approve of and find good. Could Sliske be part of that balance though? Maybe a sort of anti-player character? 2 World Guardians in balance. I don't know. Ultimately though I don't think it makes sense that Guthix would allow a new God to be born from his death. He wanted mortals to rule themselves but I don't think he would have knowingly put another obstacle in their way. I think if he wanted to die without creating a new god he could have probably fixed that sword and killed himself, or had us do it once we became World Guardian. Unless there was something else going on, Sliske seems like the last person Guthix should have allowed to kill him. Guthix was sleeping. When Sliske entered the place, the alarms were triggered, and Guthix awoke. Guthix wasn't really planning to die beforehand (though he did want it), but now he saw an opportunity present itself to him, he quickly decided, and so he took it. That's my understanding of the events currently. Sliske is not and cannot be part of the balance. For thousands of years, he has served one god or another; either that or he has secretly been planning to ascend to godhood himself. This is NOT balancing behavior (as defined by Guthix). We know that Sliske is a) either serving Zaros, or b) intending to be a god himself. He is also trying to initiate the next God Wars (something Guthix detested, as it ravaged two worlds [Naragi homeworld, and Gelinor], and even obliterated his people). None of these actions are things a Guthixian would do. So, no, he can't be part of the balance.

We know that Torva/Pernix/Virtus lived in the 2nd Age. As for Zaros, I don't know if there's any concrete signs that he retreated to the shadow, or was more hands-off during the end of his reign (though the book mentions it, I think, I will double check that). It was too small a time frame. It's possible if he had lived longer he would have been more hands-off. At the moment this, to me, seems like a self-serving narrative that he cooked up after his loss (oh, well, yeah, I was gonna leave everyone mostly alone, anyways, so my defeat was no big deal!). Also, his lack of revenge seeking on Zammy is problematic. Various people have alluded that he would come back for revenge, including Azzanadra (or was it Wahisetal?). .

The balance of the natural world isn't good or bad though. It just is, and maintaining it in times of strife could lead to some bad decisions later down the line in order to maintain that balance. To sort of jump back a few posts before, I think Icthlarin's choice of side is a lot of what Guthixians would have chosen. The best way at that time, to the best of our knowledge, was to get them to not play Sliske's game. A deadly contest for the Stone of Jas, regardless if it was really on the table, is one of the quickest way to disrupt the natural balance of the world. So even though novices might not be able to choose Guthixian, I think once they reach that point of learning what happened during TWW, it will put the choice you're guided to originally (icthlarin) into perspective. By 'good' all I mean is something that the person in question would 'approve of'. Guthix is the person in question, and he definitely spends his life desiring a balanced world, and as such that's something he would approve of and find good.

They could share details about how the armour might work, for one thing... We still don't know if it will work like Tectonic (crumble to dust), or be rechargeable like Drygore. --- As for the lore, Zaros does have sort of unsympathetic side. He promises all sorts of people all sorts of things, and two of them, he never bothers upholding his promises. He promise the Dragonriders fertility, and they eventually go extinct because of him. He promises the humans/Viggora power, but he never gives them this, and instead they feel decived and disillusioned and opt to support Zamorak instead. Zaros does have some holes. And the narrative about ruling from the shadows seems something he cooked up after his fall, rather than before. Also, the part about Nex not being special in the 2nd age seems to contradict a lot of the established lore. It seems to be an oversight on Jagex's part, hopefully they fix it.

How does it better explain why Guthix didn't fight back than the current explanation? Guthix wanted to die because he had become that which he had hated (a god), had missed his family, and thought that his own interference in Gelinor had been disproportionately imbalanced. So once Sliske entered Guthix's resting place and was trying to navigate it, Guthix had been aware of this from the start and had decided that he would allow himself to be killed. Even the Automatons guarding Guthix's resting place are aware that there is a Mahjarrat presence, from the very start. Guthix was aware that his death would directly descend into chaos (all the Gods would return), and everyone knows this; that's why they are trying to kill Guthix in the first place, so their respective Gods will return and seek dominance. However, Guthix's view is that the world belongs to mortals, and that they must ultimately depend on themselves and their own potentials in order to rid the world of gods. If they depend on another god to shield themselves from the others, that will still leave the god they depend on to be in a disproportionately empowered state. Also, Guthix does have a 'back-up' plan, it's the player, he is the final Guardian of Guthix. Guthix specifically gives the player enough power to be able to withstand the power of other gods, but not become a god himself. In fact, a constant theme in the Guardian of Guthixs is that they all have constraints, so that they don't become too powerful to upset the natural balance. They all have powers, but they must work together with others. And the World Guardian is inherently a 'good' role. Because it's a role that Guthix created and defined. Guthix defines anyone willing to respect the natural balance of the world (free from godlike interference or undue power) as good. Sliske is anything but that. He is cunning, devious, reckless, malicious, and completely power hungry, and tries to obtain the Stone of Jas and the Staff before the events of TWW, and sets out to kill Guthix so that he could either a) let Zaros come back, or b) ascend to Godhood himself by stealing Guthix's power. Why in the world would Guthix select someone like this to be a World Guardian? He's an even worse candidate than Ocellus who was openly ostrasized by all the other Guardians of Guthix. Again, it makes absolutely no sense. That's the current explanation and it is a completely airtight one. How does your scenario improve on it?

No. It's a fun scenario, but it's the most unlikely thing ever. Also, it would effectively trash on all the lore of the TWW and all the events that have followed, completely. Also, Guthix is not the sort of person who would lie to the player or mislead him. Sliske is not the good guy, or a closet Guthixian. It would be a completely illogical plot twist.

IT's like that regardless if you supported Zaros in TWW because he's not really there and doesn't have an interactive presence at the Ascension. You're not locked into the choice, the choice isn't there because Zaros isn't capable of reacting or voicing his opinion regardless if an invocation of him is there or not. Actually, from videos of other people doing the quest, those who sided with the Zarosian faction in TWW had to option to side with them again (it says "Side with Zarosians (unlocked in TWW)). Those who supported Guthix did not. Also, if there is no option to side with the Zarosians, why are the Zarosians mad in the post-quest dialogue that you aren't siding with them? Seems silly if the option isn't there (although it is). In any case, you should be able to change sides, as you didn't know that Guthix would die when you sided with him in TWW (unless you read spoilers), and because circumstances have changed, and because the Zarosians keep allowed the possibility in their dialogue, they say they are upset with you because you sided with the Guthixians during TWW, but they hope that you will reconsider this allegiance and join Zaros instead because you have been a worthy ally.

Do they say that even if you signed up with the Zarosian emissary? Yup. Even if you do all the tasks (as I did). The main gripe is that you should be allowed to side with Zaros if you sided with Guthix during TWW (especially since the Zarosians allow for this possibility).

I have considered that, but both Wahisetal and Azzanadra basically regard Sliske as a traitor and as having abandoned the Zarosian cause in their post-quest dialogue. And supposedly Azzanadra is the only person in contact with Zaros. Unless of course, Wahiesetal are lying/covering up a scheme, or perhaps they don't know of some scheme that Sliske has hatched with Zaros -- I'd say he may in for himself alone (though he still carries the Zarosian symbols). Zaros, as the puppetmaster, may have several schemes in play at once to return. If I was in his place I wouldn't rely on only one scheme in case it falls through. So, I could see him giving Sliske one task and Azzanadra another and keeping them separate. This could also go further into the unpredictability of Sliske. Have even Azzanadra think he's gone too far and yet have Sliske still be completely loyal. Yes I allow for that option in my last post. I do think it would be odd, though, for Zaros to keep Azzanadra out of the loop; he's basically the most fanatically loyal Zarosian, ever. So it's possible, though, somewhat (not completely) unlikely.

I have considered that, but both Wahisetal and Azzanadra basically regard Sliske as a traitor and as having abandoned the Zarosian cause in their post-quest dialogue. And supposedly Azzanadra is the only person in contact with Zaros. Unless of course, Wahiesetal are lying/covering up a scheme, or perhaps they don't know of some scheme that Sliske has hatched with Zaros -- I'd say he may in for himself alone (though he still carries the Zarosian symbols).

Yes they did. The lore makes it unequivocally clear that there was an alliance at various times in the history. Not something accidental or coincidental where they all just ended up doing the same thing, but rather very conscious and intentional alliances. Like the one where they all banded together to re-imprison Nex. Or the joint Saradominist-Zamorakian campaign against the Senntisten which did not halt despite Wahisetal's best efforts to turn the Zamorakians and Saraominists against each other -- they must have had a relatively decent level of trust.