Yoko Kurama

I don't oppose a 5-10 year veteran's forum, but wouldn't those become dominated by Completionists too? Better just to have suggestion forums by total level or something.

It does if it expects to be a lively activity (which, it by definition, is supposed to be). Have you dunged recently? The place is a complete ghost town and people have completely moved on. It's all the more egregious given that it was once a very lively and popular activity, there were several worlds dedicated to it, with several clans and friends chat dedicated to it. Now even on the best of days one can't even get half a world going. All the J-Mods at the Runefest stage when this plan was proposed seemed to look upon it favorably. Given Dungeoneering is by far the most complex and, arguably (in my opinion), the best designed skill -- it's a shame that it's been reduced to this.

Dungeoneering was already this way upon its release. Chaotic Longswords and Rapiers were absolutely the best weapons in their category in the game in 2010, and the Chaotic staff was also the best Staff in the game, and the chaotic crossbow was also the best crossbow in the game -- and somehow PVM and the game didn't crumble. And all those items had far less token costs than 1M -- they were about 200K each. Also, if you're going to excuse her of having an ulterior motive, you had better have some evidence to back that up. She's been quite honest, and articulated a position rather well that most people (including the J-Mods evaluating it) agreed with. There's no reason to suspect foul play here. It's true that she wants more people to do Dung and for items to be more easily accessible, but she was perfectly upfront and honest about, it and her suggestion, by definition, is aimed towards that.

By definition RS bosses cannot be continually difficult. The reason being that, unlike other games (I presume), even the bosses are a grinding activity and you're expected to repeat them several times before you can get some money or the desired drop(s). If you were guaranteed boss drops, then it might make sense to make them uber challenging, it would be a quest-like event, you conquer the big bad thing and you get the desired thing. It's an experience or a monumental event/acheivement. But in RS, since it's a complete grind and luck and all that, it's unreasonable to make them super challenging and also ask people to repeat them several hundred times.

The lag got too annoying, so I left. I usually just do planks, but I thought I would try the humidify thing today, and what do you know, it turns out they didn't need anymore!

One million tokens seems reasonable for a level 90-95 Weapon. One million for a 2h, or 500K each for DW, I think. So by the time you're 120 Dungeoneering, you should have enough tokens to afford quite a few of these things, or possibly all.

Then you're obviously out of the loop or have no agreeable concept of 'realistic'. And it's of course completely false as well. In earlier times, aside from rares, everything else was accessible (gear) for some amount of dedicated effort. No gear required hundreds of hours of monotonous grinding or insane luck to obtain. Barrows, the armour that was undeniably the best for everything and had no equal was 15-20 million GP at MOST. Even Whips quickly (and I mean really quickly) dropped in value as the amount of people hitting 85 Slayer increased. Dude, really? Have you ever heard of building from a foundation? They want you to obtain things, go places, see things...Its moments like vorago and the elite barrows that are culminations of all that effort made. 'Dude really' yourself, please. If you have been following the argument that myself and have others have launched in this thread, it's quite simple to follow: the amount of effort and time needed for a lot of the items in the game is increasingly and pathologically becoming obsessive. I simply, and others in this thread as well, have a healthier and more reasonable conception of what amount of effort should be needed to access in-game content. They have a set a ridiculous and elitist standard, and we have called them out on it, that's all there is to it. There's no need to 'dude really' anyone. Your arguments are about "pathologically obsessive nature." You arguments are predictable and more so whether or not your response will be condescending or not. I should hope my arguments are predictable. I have been consistently saying the same thing for a while. I don't know why anyone would or should expect any different from me. As for condescension, I do not think I have responded to anyone with any more hostility or condescension than they have shown me.

Then you're obviously out of the loop or have no agreeable concept of 'realistic'. And it's of course completely false as well. In earlier times, aside from rares, everything else was accessible (gear) for some amount of dedicated effort. No gear required hundreds of hours of monotonous grinding or insane luck to obtain. Barrows, the armour that was undeniably the best for everything and had no equal was 15-20 million GP at MOST. Even Whips quickly (and I mean really quickly) dropped in value as the amount of people hitting 85 Slayer increased. Dude, really? Have you ever heard of building from a foundation? They want you to obtain things, go places, see things...Its moments like vorago and the elite barrows that are culminations of all that effort made. 'Dude really' yourself, please. If you have been following the argument that myself and have others have launched in this thread, it's quite simple to follow: the amount of effort and time needed for a lot of the items in the game is increasingly and pathologically becoming obsessive. I simply, and others in this thread as well, have a healthier and more reasonable conception of what amount of effort should be needed to access in-game content. They have a set a ridiculous and elitist standard, and we have called them out on it, that's all there is to it. There's no need to 'dude really' anyone.

Then you're obviously out of the loop or have no agreeable concept of 'realistic'. And it's of course completely false as well. In earlier times, aside from rares, everything else was accessible (gear) for some amount of dedicated effort. No gear required hundreds of hours of monotonous grinding or insane luck to obtain. Barrows, the armour that was undeniably the best for everything and had no equal was 15-20 million GP at MOST. Even Whips quickly (and I mean really quickly) dropped in value as the amount of people hitting 85 Slayer increased.

This is just ridiculous. I think 500 mil is probably more than my lifetime earning in like 8 years of playing. (excluding the 300mil I bought off Jagex with 50 gloves of samid) Please go camp frost dragons every day for 4-5 hours for months to earn a level 90 armor that turns to dust in a couple of hours and isn't much better than level 80 or even 70. I don't play that game. Casuals don't play that game. My point is that there's a tradeoff. The reason why you've never had more than 500m is because you've never tried to earn more than that. If you put time into making money, like you're supposed to, you'd have a lot more money. It's that simple. It's a game, not a factory. Simply because a small minority of players have nothing better to do with their game time and real life time than to sit at the GE all day pulling accounting trips or exploiting other people (price manipulation), or camping Frost Dragons for hours everyday for months, does not mean we should all be forced to play on that ridiculous standard. It's that simple. You're maxed, aren't you? Or am I thinking of someone else? If so, I'm not sure how you don't already understand that to achieve the best things in this game, you have to work. Understanding something is not the same thing as endorsing it. I know how this game works, I simply refuse to accept it as sensible. There's a difference, and it's not all that subtle either. Like I said, I wish for the game to return to more sensible times.

This is just ridiculous. I think 500 mil is probably more than my lifetime earning in like 8 years of playing. (excluding the 300mil I bought off Jagex with 50 gloves of samid) Please go camp frost dragons every day for 4-5 hours for months to earn a level 90 armor that turns to dust in a couple of hours and isn't much better than level 80 or even 70. I don't play that game. Casuals don't play that game. My point is that there's a tradeoff. The reason why you've never had more than 500m is because you've never tried to earn more than that. If you put time into making money, like you're supposed to, you'd have a lot more money. It's that simple. It's a game, not a factory. Simply because a small minority of players have nothing better to do with their game time and real life time than to sit at the GE all day pulling accounting tricks or exploiting other people (price manipulation), or camping Frost Dragons for hours everyday for months, does not mean we should all be forced to play on that ridiculous standard. It's that simple.

I wouldn't necessarily remove the rares. In a properly deflated economy, they would be harmless. It's only in an economy with trillions of GP, hoarders and people looking to accumulate cash for no reason at all that rares have any potency. Another point to add is that Runescape has changed a lot in the high level content available. For most of Runescape's history there was no high level content (most of it stopped at 70's or 80's) -- so it sort of made sense that people looked for other goals such as rare collections (those that weren't hoarders anyways). But now for the first time, there is plenty of challenging and impressive high level content. Certainly, more people would inclined towards that as end-game content than other things. I mean, it's even common among veterans to save billions for 200Ms (and even sell their rares for it!). So yeah, rares aren't the end game content that they used to be -- not for the same amount of people anyways. Still, I suppose, there will still be some who feel differently. Again, I don't really have a problem with such people if that's what they choose to do -- as long as the economy is properly deflated and there isn't a concentration of wealth as there is now, it's just all harmless fun. Interesting to note that OSRS, which doesn't have rares like we do (they have Party Hats but their supply is too plentiful), and they don't have anywhere near the high level or end-game content that we do, and they seem to be doing fine. So rares could certainly be removed from the game if we wanted, but I don't think letting them stay is that bad of a thing either.

It's actually all quite easy. The only reason we are in this mess right is now because Jagex has quite literally sat on their ass for years doing absolutely nothing about this problem, except for a few half-assed things here and there, and then just throwing their hands up in the air and sighing, "well, we tried, back to something else". If they had kept up from the start, we wouldn't be here, or if they just took extreme measures at the start, it would be completely prevented. Just take the dicing/flower game solution. They disapproved of that whole thing, and yet when it came out, did they do anything? Nope. They literally sat on their asses for months, they got rid of the dice games, and then the flower games started. Quite literally the same thing. Did they jump on it right then and squash the thing? Nope. Just waited till months and months and months while it all went on, until they finally got rid of it, when all the damage was done. Prevention, not reaction. Still, it's not late by any means. It would take extreme measures, but the problem is quite solvable. In fact, at Runefest, in one of the sessions that was on the stream, J-Mods were asked to make suggestions which the audience would vote on. One of them suggested that partyhats become untradeable -- if you have any, you're stuck with them, and no one else can buy any. Another J-Mod suggested that they have a boss monster, which instead of dealing damage, actually sucks GP out of your inventory/money pouch/bank -- the ultimate money-sink of sorts. I think the money-sink boss monster was voted the best idea by the audience. I have never thought of or suggested any of these ideas, but it's instructive isn't it? Just about everyone acknowledges that inflation and the amount of money in the game is a horrific problem, and that something be done about it -- it's just that nothing is done about it....

If the odds are done right, I don't think you can ever truly mitigate the risk on games of chance. Well, if you have a large stack of cash, you can always just do a martingale strategy. It's not foolproof, but it's not all that bad either. That's practically how a lot of the high stakers make their money. Trying reading the whole post next time, or perhaps the whole sentence. Right after I wrote 'delete excess money', literally the next words in that very sentence were 'prevent excessive accumulation of money, and prevent inflation'. So, no, we wouldn't be there 2 months later or ever again.

I largely agree with TS's analysis (the only people who don't are stakers/manipulators/hoarders, ie, those who have something to gain from those activities, or those who have misplaced sympathies with a bunch of parasites who ruin the game for everyone else), and I largely agree with the solutions, though I am not sure if the Casino would work. It's sort of like staking -- it's pure luck, but some people are able to stay in it for long enough to accumulate large amounts of money -- enough that they can completely mitigate the risk. So I am skeptical if the casino idea would work. A better idea would be to simply reset certain sectors of the economies instead (i.e., delete excess cash, and prevent excessive accumulation of money so that we never end up here again, and prevent inflation).

It seems they have certainly made quite a few changes to the lore. I am not against that, necessarily, but interesting to note still.

Quyneax has responded with pretty much what are my sentiments. I will add though that, expecting people to camp at Frost Dragons, for hundreds of hours, is not a reasonable expectation. Runescape is supposed to be a game, albeit with some grinding, but it shouldn't be a factory where you have to work for months so you can get one item. I am willing to make an exception for cosmetic items, but it should never be the case with useful gear. Also it depends what one means by 'earning it'. I have absolutely no respect for your degenerate concept of 'earning' it where people have to work for 500-1000 hours to get one item in an online game. It's not healthy for the game, or for the players, or the community, nor is it fun for most players. The game wasn't always this way, and I would prefer it return to better times. Ridiculous amounts of time spent to achieve a single goal is the direction Runescape has been going for years now. It may not be what players have signed up for, or what is considered fun for most, but that's the reality of the situation, and it would take more than some ge restrictions to fix it. I am fully aware of that. I propose far more things than (and I have written about it in other threads on TIF) simply a few GE restrictions. And yes, the game has gone in this direction for quite a few years -- I am against all that. Even when I have benefitted from this, I have been against it (I have done Staking, and I have done boss hunting -- made a few billion from each at least -- I alway felt that even though I could do this, I shouldn't have to do it). It's interesting though, Jagex has completely noobified skills (most of them), with the profligate bonus experience at every corner, while having made items much harder to obtain. Then they have the nerve to turn around and say "well, stop complaining that your skills are so high and you still don't have any of the good items, because your skills are so easy, anyways!" It used to be that rich players had their silly hats, and some cosmetic armour (like Dragon Chain set armour) in 2005. The best armour in the game by far, barrows, which was supremely useful for everything, was expensive (something like 15-20M, and Dragon armour was 30M for the chain alone), yet any high level player could reasonably afford barrows armour or whips (best weapon in the game) if they put a little bit of work into it. Now, not only are rares that way, but so are skills (they just announced at Runefest that the new skill will also be slow, and be easy for mega rich players), but also the items. And the bosses in EoC are increasingly becoming elitist so that you need things like Seismics to do them, which cost billions. It's a complete mess all around. Jagex should acknowledge that they have turned it into a billionaire's playground and that it needs to stop. And balancing (which EoC was supposed to do), is worse now than perhaps ever before.

Quyneax has responded with pretty much what are my sentiments. I will add though that, expecting people to camp at Frost Dragons, for hundreds of hours, is not a reasonable expectation. Runescape is supposed to be a game, albeit with some grinding, but it shouldn't be a factory where you have to work for months so you can get one item. I am willing to make an exception for cosmetic items, but it should never be the case with useful gear. Also it depends what one means by 'earning it'. I have absolutely no respect for your degenerate concept of 'earning' it where people have to work for 500-1000 hours to get one item in an online game. It's not healthy for the game, or for the players, or the community, nor is it fun for most players. The game wasn't always this way, and I would prefer it return to better times.

The problem with that is what happens when you get drops? That's what I actually spent quite a bit of time thinking about when writing that post. If someone has a virtus wand and a placeholder, and they get two drops in a trip (which has happened), now they have four and are no longer able to pick one of them up? Well, exceptions could be made for drops, for instance. I support the general principle (anti-hoarding), as to what form it will take, I am willing to tinker with that. What if I like something and would like to collect a large quantity of that item. Precisely why do we need these restrictions? Then too bad for you. I can see no reason as to why you would need 10 sets of Ascension Crossbows, aside from merching or hoarding. If it is genuinely for some sort of aesthetic collection, well, you'd would be collateral damage. The benefit accrued to you by hoarding is blown far away and outweighed by the detriment done to the community and economy at large. If however, when the supply of such items was plentiful, I suppose such restrictions could be lifted.

In that case you're a sympathizer, and of a particularly odd sort, the sort that has nothing to gain with sympathizing for a bunch of people who constantly make Runescape's economy a dread for most players for no reason at all.

I take it you're a price manipulator, or a sympathizer of some sort. We don't ever expect to court your vote.

Or better yet, a permanent limit. You can only own 2 or 3, maybe, sets of any high level items. One placeholder/spare, and one for regular use. That's it. You don't need any more than that.

Sounds like an update targeted towards people who have Seismics and Ascensions; what a waste. Should have a made it clear that this month was only for billionaires.

I'd love to hear how buying and selling items for profit is a scam. Most of the large profits are not generated through common-day flipping, but rather large-scale and highly coordinated buyouts and price manipulation. Even everyday flipping, it could be argued, adds absolutely nothing to the game. It's a non-productive activity, and really just exploits game-mechanics. It's a sad state of affairs in any particular game when the way to make money isn't doing quests, doing skills, engaging in any of the in-game content, but rather price manipulation, staking, taking gambles, or sitting all day at the GE, shuffling coins around and pulling accounting tricks.

Or if you're like me and can't play content for maxed billionaires, a no-content update month! Yay! Stop being so lazy, it took me six months to get to max cash and I can barely play. Why does everyone expect to get everything handed to them? Boohoo it's a lot of money, yeah DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Not everything in life can be fast, can't live with the grind? Quit :shrug: Shame that the armour probably won't have a set effect. Stop being a shortsighted boor. I have played the game for several years, and I have had billions over the years, and I am perfectly aware that my money was purely due to luck and/or unconventional and unusual things that most people shouldn't have to do. It's not about handouts. Runescape is a game that belongs to the community, and we have a right to say what we think should be its nature: how much time is reasonable and unreasonable for people to obtain certain things. We have a right to say that expecting people to spend thousands of hours, or playing with GE mechanics for months is not really how people should make money. And by and large that's how most Runescape players feel. Things shouldn't be easy, but nor should they be ridiculously hard. It's called balance, having a fun and enjoyable game, and a healthy game that doesn't place ridiculous expectations on players. If you don't like this view, maybe you should be the one who quits and/or stops being a boor. I can't say I have seen anyone more self-absorbed than that post of yours -- you are not the centre of the universe, it's about accommodating as many players as possible rather than telling them all to "just do what I did to make money or STFU". "If I can do it in 6 months, then all of you need to do be able to do it in 6 months too!" No. Or we can just tell Jagex to make a more reasonable game.