magzar

Nazi isn't a hate crime group, it's a political party. That's why they called it the nazi party. Anyway I think it's a harsh generalization to hate them as a whole. For the most part they were soldiers no different than our own. They had the choice to follow orders or die. Don't try to tell me you would have done any differently. Just imagine the guilt they had to live with for what they were forced to do in the name of Germany. That's not to say what they did was right, but it's unfair to generalize in that way. Generalizations like those were the entire foundation of the Germans' views on Jews.

lulz warrior you froob yer still on this?

That makes me think of the prank awhile back where someone made those LED roadwork signs say "Caution! Nazi Zombies Ahead!" and other such things. Epic prank tbh. Also. GTFO noob.

Damnit, I tripped over Magzar's half inflated blow-up doll and hurt myself. I wish he wouldn't leave that thing lying around. -.- She was fully inflated until I let you borrow her you [wagon]!

I'll admit that I haven't gone through all of your posts on this thread, so I'm not going to get in the middle of that part of the argument. I just want to address your last post. No, runescape isn't a part of real life. However, what you do in the game has an impact on other aspects in the game. Saying that it's only a game doesn't absolve you from the consequences. If I curse out a child and tell him the world will be better off without him, I don't know the child's state of mind, nor what impact my words will have on him. The point is, that our player interactions within the community do have consequences. The Runescape economy is rather simplified compared to real world economics. We don't have a futures market, bonds market, etc. But there is an economy going. There are some financial mirrors to the real world. If we are going to have a successful economy in operating in Runescape, then it makes sense to borrow models that work in the real world, and have guidelines that represent lessons learned from the real world. Jagex's intention is to have an economy based on supply and demand. They didn't make that up. This is a situation where we can be on opposite sides of the fence on this issue, and still agree on something. I agree that Jagex needs to make their position clear. You're right. To completely eradicate manipulation, the only true solution is to have fixed prices. That's not a reasonable solution though. The other answer is to lift the trade caps, but then that invites back in RWT. That's the real rock and hard place situation here. Unless Jagex chooses to undercut merchant clans, we're in a tough spot. Price manipulation was much, much more difficult to achieve prior to GE. Prices on most items tended to have a fixed range that players would trade in. Most merchants operated by finding good bargains, and reselling them at higher end prices. It was difficult to buy out an item, and to do it anonymously like you can now. You'd pretty much have to be on the forums 24/7 and scouring World 2, even then it was difficult to have all sellers funneling their goods into your pockets. The GE's system makes it much easier to do that, and because of the universal prices, all traders have to conform to what the GE says. Since you decided to bring up real world economics at this point in your argument, you can't retract and say it is irrelevant. If Jagex decides to step in and fix prices, then you are absolutely right. However, even free market societies have fair trade rules, and the government has stepped in to curb practices very similar to what merchant clans are doing today. The Hunt Silver Manipulation is a very good case. When you undermine the liquidity of the item as well as the true value of an item, it disrupts the confidence in the market. Personally, I really don't want to see you, or anybody who shares this opinion to leave the game. I play the game for the community, and to get into debates like this. I want the practice to stop, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. However, if the only enjoyment you get out of Runescape is through price manipulation, then have fun on Oblivion. i just wanted to say =D>

[/hide] I'm thick? You're the one treating runescape as a part of real life. My roommates step-dad is a stock broker and I'm a computer engineer. You can't say that Jagex's algorithm, or system if you will, for determining prices is comparable to wallstreet. And like I said you can't govern runescape's economy with the law's of the business world. The only judicial system is Jagex. And please quit putting words in my mouth. I never once said that Jagex encourages item manipulation. I demand that they make an official announcement(meaning FRONT PAGE) on their stance and their propositions. The fact of the matter is that they are between a rock and a hard place. They can either let this continue to happen (Which in my opinion is the lesser of two evils) or they can fix their system. But the only permanent fix is setting the prices, which turns the GE into a big general store with set prices...this is how much it cost, this is how much you can sell it for, otherwise people are going to continually manipulate their system. If you don't think price manipulation took place before the GE, then you need to reread your history. Also, letting Jagex step in everytime they think manipulation happens is a concept known as market socialism, which is similiar to communism(there is a difference, and in fact one inhabits the other, but I don't want to go to deep into that). So if you want to play a game with an economy where the developers control the prices, than fine, but I'll gladly go back to Oblivion. (And don't say "good, cuz we don't want you here", because I'm not the only person who shares this opinion)... PS,Name calling, which is what you have done throughout this thread, only starts flame wars. You need to step back, because believe it not, you don't know everything. And I don't claim to know everything either. But let me tell you something kid, I was playing runescape when you were still wetting your bed. (See how I generalize there..go ahead and make an argument that you're some sort of adult, because it will only prove my point that your generalizations only make an [wagon] out of yourself)... edit: and I did read the [bleep] thread...but again PRICE MANIPULATION IS NOT AGAINST JAGEX'S RULES YET!!!! and I stress YET, because I doubt that will last much longer. however my whole point is keep on whining about this kind of stuff, the game is only going to get worse as more restrictions are imposed... HAHA, wow how wrong you are. I'm well aware that price manipulation is not a new problem in runescape. I remember selling things for far higher than their actual value myself before trade restrictions came about. The fact is that with a centralized market system and trade limitations, players don't have the luxury of just refusing to deal with price manipulators and finding someone who is selling for reasonable prices. When an item's price is manipulated it affects any and all players would would like to buy and use that item for any reason. Of course you could try finding a player who will deal with you directly to buy what you need for a more reasonable price.(granted of course that you're an experienced player with a good deal of quest points to increase your trade margins) However, often the case is that people choose to sell on the G.E. as a matter of convenience, and anyone who is stocking items is doing so because they believe the G.E. prices to be too low anyway. As far as Runescapes system being similar to Wall street; there are actually very few differences. 1. Price floors and ceilings. Necessary to prevent real world trading. 2. Update frequency and flexibility. Real world stock markets update in real time with no limit on how much a stock's value can change. ...I had one more but I can't seem to remember precisely what it was at the moment, I'll edit if i remember. Now as far as the Laws go. True enough, Runescape is not governed by real world laws. However, the similarity between the systems demands a similar set of business ethics and laws. There is no reason why a business practice that is illegal in the real world, would be legal in runescape. The parallels that myself and others have drawn to real world practices are indeed valid due to the fact that these same activities can be replicated in Runescape economics. Insider trading is possible. Monopolies are possible. Cornering the market is possible. Collusion is possible. The fact that these practices exist in Runescape demands that they be dealt with as they would be in the real world, that is, swiftly and harshly. I agree that there is no fix for this other than declaring fixed prices, which obviously none of us want. I also agree that Jagex should make a clear statement to say that Price Manipulation is explicitly against the rules. That being said, it still takes a lot of ignorance to look at the information we have and simply say, "well they never specifically said we couldn't do it." There are times when you have to look at implied meanings rather than specific statements. For instance, there is no specific rule that says you can't fake an orgasm in Runescape. (assume hypothetically that no offensive language is used and that it is not directed at any other players.) However, you certainly don't need Jagex to step in and tell you that you can't stand around the G.E. typing out grunts and moans. Ignorance of the rules, whether explicitly stated or implied is no excuse for breaking them. Also, I have done my best to refrain from name calling, however at some point patience with the ignorance and pigheadedness of others begins to draw thin. Besides that I never called you any names, I asked if you were intentionally being thick and said you were making yourself look like an idiot. As Omali already said, the green dragon statement is not only irrelevant, but it doesn't even make sense. In closing, you may indeed be older than me, but unless your name is on that top 2000 players list I can assure you that you were not playing runescape before me. I joined the game at the end of January of 01, the game had been out for less than a month. I'm actually still a little pissed that I didn't quite make that top 2000 cut. I miss my first character :cry: . good ole Vrookman. I really wish I could recover that account. [hide=]I actually started the Runescape craze where i live. I found it on a MMORPG database that was really no more than a badly made webpage with a list games, no pictures or anything. I was amazed at the quality and got hooked immediately. I was in 7th grade at the time and showed it to all my friends. Within a few months it was hard to find a kid(a boy anyway) who didn't play. Let me tell you, it was a huge step up from the AOL games I was used to. (or shockwave, or ezone, or mamamedia) It was especially a huge innovation over the telnet based MUD Wheel of Time, I had been playing, or the mostly text based rpg Dragon Court. Then of course there's the strategy game Dominion. None of this is relevant obviously but it's the direction my train of thought took me.[/hide]

To be perfectly honest, the only bad thing about the censor is that it censors some things that really have no need to be censored. It's gotten much better but it can sometime still be a pain. There's no logical reason to star out parts of words instead of letting the whole thing be starred, unless it's a word that is needlessly censored and will be hard to discern if fully censored. Seeing "**** you you *******" has about the same impact as "F**k you you a*****e," so there's really no point. Removing the censor wouldn't allow you to express yourself any more than you already can. Everyone pretty much understands that you're frustrated if they see a string of stars pop up above your head. Is it really necessary that they know exactly what those stars stand for? There are good reasons for the censor, as this is a game frequented by young players, who may not be mature enough to handle such language. Letting out a public string of profanities in the real world is likely to get you thrown out of whatever establishment you happen to find yourself in, or even a charge of disturbing the peace. On top of that there are a lot of people who find hearing, or reading profanity to be very offensive. Another factor I doubt you've considered is how much easier it would make in game solicitation and such things, which certainly isn't a reputation that runescape needs.

A player has the right to kick people out of their CC if they feel like it. Use your construction skill to make a better telescope and try using a guide to find the stars yourself.

N64 are you being intentionally thick? We have a statement in the knowledge base saying that Jagex will intervene in the case of price manipulation, also we have a statement buy MMG, who if you aren't aware is the CEO of Jagex, saying that Price manipulation is a problem and that they intend to do something about it. On top of that it's a highly disruptive way of playing the game, and commonly damages the playing experience for other players. You would have to have the intelligence of my shoe to believe that they consider it to be ok. While it may not be stated directly in the rules, there is more than a sufficient amount of evidence to show that it is not a practice which Jagex deems to be "ok." There are times in life when you have to read between the lines and use a little bit of common sense. Take this for example: There is no law that says "don't put a truckload of donkey heads into a catapult and fire them at your neighbor's house," but obviously that's not ok. While I do agree that often real world issues do not translate to Runescape, that is not always the case. There are numerable instances where parallels do exist, this being one of them. As far as how Manipulation clans work, you obviously don't have a clear understanding. Manipulation clans buyout stocks FORCING prices to rise artificially due to the new false demand, as opposed to buying and reselling moderate amounts of stocks in order to resell when and if that stock's price naturally rises through increased demand. It is a dishonest and unethical practice, whether it be in game or in real life. There is a distinct reason why it's illegal in real life, as it causes the same kind of harm to people as it does in Runescape. As for your argument about how murder is illegal and yet we have pking, you seem to forget that in runescape, YOU RESPAWN. If you respawned in real life, I imagine murder wouldn't really be that big a deal. Stealing from other players is against the rules.(don't even bring up the thieving skill, stealing from an NPC is not even close to the same thing.) Defrauding another player is against the rules. Harassing another player is against the rules. The list goes on. All of these are laws in the real world, and all of these have a parallel in runescape. To be completely honest, You have long since lost this argument, and all you're accomplishing by continuing to present the same invalid points over and over is making yourself look like an idiot and causing a lot of facepalms to happen. I would actually like to invite anyone who has a family member or friend who works in stock brokering, or accounting or something similar to have them come into this discussion and explain a bit more officially the damage caused by these clans and why they are so unethical.

The guy from goldmerch I've been talking to wants to take the clan in a new direction and teach players how to merch for themselves instead of manipulating. He seemed to only be getting limited support from other members though. Personally I think it could be a great idea to teach people who really want to make money buy merching, how to do it without buyouts or other forms of manipulation, so I really support what he's trying to do. you posted this before, right? i'm in one of these "legit" clans where EVERYBODY knows how to merchant and the members rarely even work together. lately we've been getting people who say "what is the item?". we reply "we don't manipulate" he says "hahahhaha yeah right" its actually depressing, then again, i can see why the "members" (or should i say 'leechers') of goldmerch don't want to BE TAUGHT how to merch. they're all 11. Yeh, some of these kids just don't get it. If i was into merching i would probably join a clan like yours. I mean, I know how to do it, I've just always preferred to earn my gold by playing the game. Merching to me seems way too much like working and i don't even want a game to feel like work.

ok i assumed as much, but i wasn't positive. that's cool though, grats.

um, what precisely is the editorial panel?

The guy from goldmerch I've been talking to wants to take the clan in a new direction and teach players how to merch for themselves instead of manipulating. He seemed to only be getting limited support from other members though. Personally I think it could be a great idea to teach people who really want to make money buy merching, how to do it without buyouts or other forms of manipulation, so I really support what he's trying to do. @ Me_hate_libs How do you know what I've got underneath my fancypants?

Yea, released in 2001... lulz quoted for truth. January 01 pal.

This is as close as I could find in the KB concerning the GE: I know it seems weak, but the statement implies that price manipulation is against their policies. Furthermore, it also states that Jagex reserves the right to step in and intervene at their discretion. They used to have a stronger stance about price manipulation posted in the forums before the GE came out (where most market activity took place at that time), but my guess is that Jagex saw the GE as some perfect, flawless system that is was no longer needed to warn players about price manipulation. Today, Jagex's position is very confusing because there's a lot of murky water here. While I don't agree with the merchant clans practices, I can also understand their anger. Nobody has proven that limpwurt prices were deliberately changed, but if they were then it shows cowardice. I have a hard time believing that one lone mod would risk his career to change prices in a video game. However, if Jagex is frowning upon price manipulation then they need to just come out and say it. Whatever their position is, they need to make it clear and public. Jagex has ignored this argument far too long, and now there's going to be angry players no matter what side they take. If you look back through the thread, Master_Smither posted a screenshot of MMG saying price manipulation was a problem and that the are planning to do something about it.

I assume you mean goldmerch?

That was in the first month, a J-Mod on the forums leaked that number but said it was worth it over potentially losing more to RWT through bans or quitting. That was the number for December/January. I'm a pretty active person in the pure world and since December 07 till now, there's been countless amounts of pures quitting the game. Not to mention that mains or pkers that are mains also just quit the game. I do feel that at least 1/4 of the games population centred around the PvP aspects of the Wild and Dueling. A huge majority of that quarter have not stuck around, as obvious by the numbers pulled for clans, either mains or pures, through-out the year of 08. -------- However the new CEO, Mark Gerhard, is probably the best CEO we've had, well, if Jagex even needs to publicly announce a CEO, and by the looks of his work as a CEO, with all the social contact and the support with clans he's gotten done, I have to say Runescape looks brighter than it did in all of 07 or 08. Don't blame Jagex, blame Geoff Iddison for screwing up our wonderful game. You simply have to look at the site traffic figures to know that your estimations on how many people quit were way way off. And there was certainly never 1/4 of players centered on pking. Pkers have always been the vast minority.

i'm not bleeping or moaning, i am admittedly uninformed on this topic (haven't been interested in this game for a while, hard to catch up on current events and only have experience merchanting before the GE was introduced) and more than anything am looking for a concrete argument that what merchant clans is against the rules and 'bad for the game'. Trying to play devils advocate to get past the 100 posts of 'merch clans r bad and illegal, jagex better fix the grand exchange'. To be honest, I like the argument you made and the issue is getting fuzzier. I'm not sure if you were addressing me, but I do not believe that the GE is flawed either. Let's hope they go down the banstick road rather than revamping the GE in some way, because I (like many others, I am sure) like it the way it is. No I didn't mean you specifically, just a generalization to those who don't fully understand the concept. I also hope they go the route of banning people instead of making major changes to the game. Obviously simple bannings won't wipe out the problem completely, but if you take out enough of these clan leaders, then the power they help will be significantly decreased, making it much harder for buyouts to even happen.

Ummm... You want more money given to new players so they can give you more to help them find furnaces? :roll: Lulz all aboard the furnace train. Only 5k a ticket new players! Just follow me to a furnace! *leads them to the most remote and dangerous furnace possible and laughs as they all get killed*

Look, it's not technically a bug, it's just not what the G.E. was intended for. The caps on how much of an item you can buy per day were put in place to prevent buyouts. After this player joined together to organize buyouts. These buyouts are known as "cornering the market." Now cornering the market is illegal in real life as it allows people to exploit the fact that they own all of a commodity to charge exorbitant prices, which consumers are forced to pay. In runescape it's the same thing, except that the commodity in question is temporarily removed from circulation completely, not only stagnating trade of that commodity and preventing players from being able to acquire things they need, but also forcing the prices to rise to levels which they never would under normal economic conditions. You can [bleep] and moan all you want about how "there's no rule against it so it must be ok." To that all I have to say is read the knowledge base. Jagex specifically states that they will intervene if it becomes apparent that price manipulation is occurring. This is concrete proof that it IS against the rules. This isn't some post by a random mod in the forums, or a simple statement in game. This is in the knowledge base, which is the official source of information about the game. As far as the G.E. being flawed for making this possible, that is absolute [cabbage] as well. There is NO WAY to resolve this without fixing prices. If there were then you would see that fix already in real world stock markets. The fact is in the real world there are laws against practices like price manipulation and anyone caught is fined and receives jail time. The best Jagex can really do is issue bans for those caught manipulating prices and manually change the prices of any items know to be in the midst of manipulation. The only "flaw" in the G.E. is that it's forced to have price caps and floors in order to prevent real world trading, otherwise it works almost exactly the same as real world stock markets do.

You really should read the thread as you don't seem to understand the harm they cause, or that it's clearly not well within the rules as jagex has begun taking action against it. Also, a Mod is NOT allowed to express opinions which are contradictory to the rules of Runescape. That being said, I reiterate that it was indeed, just a joke.

I've been talking to one of the ranked members from goldmerch, he's trying to start up a solo investment clan to teach people how to merch on their own rather than manipulating. His [wagon] clan seems to only want to keep manipulating though. Some kids never learn.

Uhm that's one of the most stupid posts I ever read: it's good that I'm not an admin cause I really would almost hit the ban button somebody would say such a thing to me: You're basically saying das (and all tipit's staff) shouldn't have a personal opinion on what's good: that hey should always, and only, follow runescape's opinion? That would be for me one of the biggest breaches of freedom in speech - my personally highest valued human right! - Really you lost all my respect with that post (though you probably don't care). Ow and for those who say "I can't get a months suply".. - Don't you make profit than with what you're doing? (else you soon grow to have a months suply), and moreover: how did you do it when the GE wasn't out? Pulli please read the thread before you make an [wagon] out of yourself. I've already said, more than once mind you, that I kidding. Also, the vast majority of players aren't going to buy a month's supply of everything they could possibly need for that month, because you never know what new activities you might decide you want to do. There's almost always going to be something in the game you need that you don't have. Hence the entire point of trading. Besides that, To anyone saying "you could gather it yourself," have you stopped to consider this is a MMORPG, which by very definition demands some level of dependence on other players for materials or items you may need. Imagine a solo version of runescape where you have to gather everything you need all by yourself, and could sell only to general stores. It would probably take you 10 years or more to ever get anywhere close to maxing out skills, not to mention all the other disadvantages that come with a total self sufficiency. I'm not knocking doing things on your own, I try do do a lot of things on my own as well, but as a MMORPG, it's a community game and as such it's designed to be played with the aid of other players.

Canadiansmurf, how old are you? like 13 maybe? I'm guessing you have no concept of economics and how it works. Solo merching is almost exactly like investing in the stock market in the real world. You do research, find profitable investments, and sink capital into them. Sometimes those stocks will go up and up and up, earning you money when you finally choose to sell.(hopefully as close to the peak price as possible) Manipulation requires no intelligence whatsoever to accomplish. All it takes is a group of people, choosing an item at random, buying all of it they can to force the prices to go up, and then selling it when it does go up. This practice is indeed illegal in the real world, and if allowed would set a horrible economic precedent for the teens and young adults who might play the game and think that the practices they learned in runescape would translate. In the real world manipulating prices will net you a fine and possibly even jail time. As for saying where do you draw the line and how is a solo merchant not bad, the difference is a solo merchant doesn't buy out the entire stock of an item and force its price to change. They buy a certain amount and watch the prices rise naturally until they feel it has reached its peak, at which time they sell. This doesn't prevent the average player from acquiring items they need, or cause artificial fluctuations in the market

It's not one little limp.. And this only happened to one clan, yet they're all "rioting". It's because they think Jagex is screwing around with them, and they're not happy. Plus the public relations mod in the RSOF thread, Mod Mat K, wasn't too nice to them. (But he was hilarious for the rest of us). I bet the person who dumped their limps at min and drove down prices is sitting around giggling their [wagon] off right now. I damn well would be.