Earth_Poet

This is a new example of a worn topic: Is Runescape addictive? Yes, I believe it can be for some. 1) Is this normal behavior for the slightly above-average gamer? In this case, I think it depends. Is this behavior exclusive to the Olympics, or is it an every day occurrence? If their playing time is for the purpose of the competition, then it can't be "normal behavior" as it is more relevant to winning. I don't think you can really judge someone for wanting to have fun for a few days. I wouldn't begin my concerns until it becomes routine. 2) When does this start to become a problem? It becomes a problem when real life responsibilities are sacrificed for the sake of Runescape. Withdrawing from friends and family, slacking on schoolwork, missing school and/or work, etc. When it becomes the center of your life with no care outside of the game, then it becomes a problem. Of course, sometimes this caliber of player grows up and lands a job in QA testing. :) 3) What's the worst example of this you yourself have done? I couldn't give you a specific example, but I have been known to go through periods of excessive playing. My ADHD keeps me from getting too attached though. :D

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If you are able to dictate the largest amount of transactions of a specific item in one day, you'll have the greatest influence on which direction the price moves. There are two advantages a merchant clan can have: 1) a larger stockpile of cash amongst the clan to move prices, 2) the ability to make more transactions (since there's a limit per person). As far as I know, it doesn't matter how many transactions are being made; if you are the only buying and you bid for one item at max, then the price should adjust upwards the next day. In order to manipulate the prices, the most effective way is to buy out all of a given item on the GE. Seeds seem to be a popular item to manipulate, because there is always a demand for them, but are difficult to gather in consistent quantities on your own. Your real life experiences probably would make you much more knowledgeable than most people here, especially myself. The way I see it, it works pretty much the exact same way as cornering the market. You buy out a controlling share of an item, and create an artificial demand for it.

This. Jagex has said this numerous times. They say they are trying to do something completely different in terms of MMOs.

Yes, I agree. I agree. I agree. I think we're in agreement here. I don't care if they choose to sell the key as optional. I do have a bit of a problem with offering incentives for it, and if they won't get anybody to buy the keys without in-game incentives then maybe it's not worth their time to do it. I am glad that Jagex decided to pitch the idea and see what feedback they would have first. They could've just gone forward with the plan and surprise us one day. That is definitely one thing that is different, and I'm happy they are willing to open a debate and answer people's questions first. That was a smart move.

[hide=Makoto] But if the key is really that important to security, then why not just make it mandatory for all? I imagine that would be a much tougher sale to force everybody to buy one for their own accounts. I own 4 accounts; I certainly wouldn't be buying 4 different keys for each one. They would risk ending up losing members if it was mandatory, which is not their goal. I know I'd probably quit playing. Here I believe you've refuted your own point. It would be a much, much harder sell to everyone if they decided to make it mandatory. If it's an option, then people will still consider it. [/hide] Actually, that was my point. :lol: But if it is that important to security, and their motives are altruistic as they seem to be saying, well there is no sell then. They should do what's necessary, and I'll go find something else to waste my time on. But they won't make them mandatory. I see that as a sign they're not as important as you think. It's like selling extended warranties. I don't have a problem against the keys. My problem is attaching something that everybody seems to want to it. Like Andrew has implied, nobody is interested without the bank space. I read that as people are more interested in buying bank space. If they can't sell the key on its own merit, then maybe it isn't worth it, at least at this time.

They didn't take the idea from anybody. They are starting to become pretty standard for any company who has employees using computers networks with sensitive information. It is interesting that it's starting to be pushed on to customers now though. I wonder how many security keys I'm going to be carrying around with me 5 years from now. Do I need to start saving for my Tip.It key?

But if the key is really that important to security, then why not just make it mandatory for all? I imagine that would be a much tougher sale to force everybody to buy one for their own accounts. I own 4 accounts; I certainly wouldn't be buying 4 different keys for each one. They would risk ending up losing members if it was mandatory, which is not their goal. I know I'd probably quit playing. The bank space is a marketing ploy. It's to get enough people interested in buying the key, not so more people will be safe, but so Jagex can minimize any losses, or even come out ahead. They are going to need enough people willing to buy the key to make it worth their while, not ours. Is it a horrible thing they are trying to do with the key? No, I don't think so. Personally, I'm not interested in it, but if others are that's great. I don't like the idea of an in-game incentive though. Why not give them something off the Jagex store, or a month's free membership instead.

Demand doesn't increase due to inflation. If you are trying to fit into a supply and demand scheme, then you have it backwards. The supply of gp is increasing dramatically which is decreasing the value of it. If the market was suddenly flooded with yew logs, what would happen to the price? It would go down, making the value less in relation to other commodities. In other words, you would be getting less for your yew logs. Inflation would be just the reverse opposite. If the market is flooded with a greater supply of gp, then the value of gp goes down. You get less for your gp. There was a joke about Argentina in the 1980s when inflation collapsed their economy. It was, "the good news is everyone is a millionaire; the bad news is a cup of coffee costs a million dollars now." That cup of coffee didn't [bleep]e in price because of demand. It had nothing to do with it. It was because their money became worthless. You've explained this concept to a point, but I don't understand the link to demand. It's supply of gp, not demand for an item, and not both. As far as is it all bad, I think slight inflation is inevitable in MMOs, but steep inflation can create a volatile economy. The PvP artifacts are counterproductive to some of the money sinks they had put into the game.

No, but they do have time to make smarmy comments without even bothering to check. He did check, and he did apologize. I know what you're talking about. The reason that they get so defensive is because they usually get a lot of bogus lost-item glitch notices. It happens, you know. It was good that he admitted he made a mistake in the end, but that was entirely after the fact. There was no need to make those comments to your customers. "One is a liar, so they all must be liars" is not a viable defense. Furthermore, this seems to be the rule Jagex practices instead of the exception. I've had several friends get their accounts banned or muted for ridiculous reasons they were completely innocent of, and forget about explaining it in your appeal. Yet, at the same time I see other appeals work with this explanation: [hide=][/hide] I think it shows either where investments are needed more, or the staff needs to change their attitudes.

No, but they do have time to make smarmy comments without even bothering to check.

I feel it is a bit excessive of security for this game, so I doubt I'd ever buy the key, but I am a bit peeved at the thought of offering extra bank space with it. I would rather see a greater investment made in customer support. Also, I am willing to bet a large portion of players are quite young and will be prone to losing their key. Not everyone who plays carries a set of keys with them.

The first thing that must be pointed out is that while the use of third-party software may not be relevant to your Runescape experience, there are thousands of players that find it vital. Many players use it to better organize large clan wars and try to give themselves an advantage over their opponents, and many more simply use them for the conveniences of them. Also, in the four years that I've been playing I've met exactly one person who happens to live in the same town as me. I don't want to put down the dangers of predators stalking the internet, but much of the software we are discussing doesn't make you much more vulnerable than on Runescape, and in my personal experience so far I haven't noticed predators overrunning the place. If we are talking about small children, than it should be the parents' decision on what permitted, and the parents should be monitoring internet activity, not Jagex. However, if we are talking about full grown adults like me, then it is my decision on what to choose, so long as it's not giving me an unfair advantage like macros. Yes, you are correct that Jagex can't legally condone any programs that aren't under their design and supervision. They don't want to be liable for any problems out of their control. So the risk then shifts to the players who still choose to use the programs. While Jagex chooses not to condone third-party software, they don't have the right to tell me what software I'm allowed to download. Contrary to popular belief, I didn't buy my computer just to play Runescape on. Some of the programs aren't exclusively used for Runescape. The popular ones that are, like Swiftkit, are helping to make the game more efficient by providing all of your tools in one place. It makes up for the shortcomings in the game, like that worthless client they made available for download. The ironic thing is Jagex knows this. I don't think it was a coincidence that on the same day Jagex tried to ban Swiftkit (then called Swiftswitch), in the very same post, they promised us a clan chat. Yes, the game can still function without the extra software, but I can also eat mashed potatoes without a fork. It makes it more convenient, more organized, and more fun for thousands of players. If you choose not to use them then that is your choice, but just as you have made your choices, I have made mine. I saw the real point to this article as this: If Jagex truly doesn't want us using third-party software, then have a long ways to go in upgrading their game.

I'd be interested in reading the steampunk fantasy/sci-fi stuff.

The first thing I thought of when I saw your name was The Old Nite. Welcome back.

sounds like a pump and dump. as mentioned, this was a common problem particularly in rares markets prior to GE. although forum mods did start cracking down on manipulators trying to spread rumors on the RSOF, or trying to gang up on a forum to push prices up. it's not smart, or anything new. it's just a lot easier to get your hands on all the claws for sale through the GE now.

That's something I never knew, and a bit cruel I might add! :lol: If there is a topic you would like to see addressed in a future edition of the Times, please feel free to PM me or one of the staff. I know there is no intention of ignoring any readers. We are always up for ideas to write about. Also, if you feel that you could express an idea better, then send in a guest article, or a letter to the editor.

What happened to not using real world examples? I thought that was your criteria. I agree that inflation itself is not a bad thing in Runescape, but rapid inflation is (even said that earlier). I agree with you, but maybe we should explain why inflation itself isn't bad (without using real world examples).

Magic, for years, has been one of the greatest causes of inflation with the high alching spell.

I kind of agree with this statement. You have a lot of people who have no interest in PVP, but are 26king. Find a way to stop the 26king abuse, and you stop a lot of those problems. However, PVP never used to generate brand new items and wealth into the game, and I think that's the point Ts was trying to make. Should this be stopped as well? I don't PK so I don't know. MMORPGs always have a problem with inflation. The ways Jagex typically deals with it is by introducing ways to draw money out of the economy with things like Construction. I don't think inflation itself is bad. We've always experienced inflation in Runescape. It only becomes a problem if the inflation increases too fast. I'm sure they will put an end to 26king soon, and then I could see the next skill being a moneypit skill along the lines of Construction.

I walked into Draynor Manor and got stuck there for a week before I finally found the exit.

Darkblade, I've divided my response up into hide tags to hopefully prevent a wall of text. [hide=Who's really to blame?] If a deranged man climbs the clocktower and shoots a bunch of people, then do you blame the man holding the rifle, the gun dealer who put the rifle in his hands, or the gun laws that allowed the dealer to sell the rifle? While it may be worth inspecting the system to see if the incident can be avoided in the future, it doesn't mean those who pull the trigger are no longer responsible for their actions. We are in agreement that merchant clans are not the root of the problem, but only a symptom. Banning players will solve little as it does nothing to prevent new players from doing the same thing. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that what they are doing is excused. There is blame to go around, but to be fair the people at Jagex are game developers, not accountants or legislators.[/hide] [hide=some history] I'm not sure what your metaphor was meant to represent here. Are you saying that we shouldn't be obsessing over the problems instead of looking for solutions? If so, I agree, but it's been an uphill battle to try and convince people there is a problem. Are you saying that we must be mindful of consequences? If so, then I also agree. Since I'm a fan of history, humor me while I tell this tale. About three years ago, Jagex decided to change the rune essence market by introducing Pure Essence. Jagex figured it would remove a large part of the RWT markets, but they didn't expect the RWTers to risk buying membership accounts. What the Pure Essence updates really did was hurt the relationship between P2P and F2P markets. It was like severing all foreign trade because of a small criminal ring. What happened instead was the F2P bots began flooding woodcutting areas as it was the only viable business left. Also, RWTers did start buying membership, only with stolen credit cards. This became an even bigger problem for Jagex than the rune essence problem was. As Mod Hobagoly stated: This prompted Jagex to enforce the RWT updates, including trade caps and removing old-style wildy pking. The actions Jagex took to protect their game from outside harm is now beginning to eat the game from the inside out. Two new factors are running the game today: 26k tricking, and price manipulation. The solutions of yesterday become the problems of today.[/hide] [hide=What can we do?] That's the kajillion dollar question, isn't it? What can we do about it? The truth is, in any free market society, you will always have a risk of some price manipulation, and that is not always 100% bad either. What has to be done is to limit the problem, so that we don't see huge price [bleep]es and crashes, and not on such a rampant scale either. We also don't want to create a situation that is worse for everybody. We need to outline what our goals are: 1. We don't want to return the problem of RWT 2. We want to fix the system to reduce the widespread abuse 3. We don't want to castrate the entire community, and leave everybody worse off While I don't think set-in-stone prices would result in the demise of Runescape as some people have suggested, it would take away some of our freedoms in the game similar to how the RWT updates did. In other words, it would sap a little more "fun" out of the game. Lifting trade caps runs the risk of a rise in RWT activity, but I think there is some wiggle room here. Based on my Quest Points, I'm allowed a 60k gap every 15 minutes. Instead, why not make it 250k an hour? It would equal roughly the same amount, but would allow greater freedom for bulk trades. I made a thread a couple of weeks ago suggesting to limit the GE to a handful of worlds. Of course, that idea attracted flamers to me like flies to honey, and it's not hard to understand why. The GE has made trading sooooooooo convenient, but unfortunately that's where the root of the problem lies. If all trading (aside from junk trading) is occurring on the GE, then it's safe to say that all trades are vulnerable to manipulation. How you beat price manipulators is by flooding competition against them. In order for it to succeed in Runescape, there has to be a new market that competes against the GE. If we aren't going to limit trades on the GE, then we need enough incentives to draw people away from the GE. If more trades are taking place individually than on the GE, it will minimize the influence the price manipulators have over the entire economy. It's not to say that it would completely eradicate price manipulation from the game. What it would do is increase their risk, and require a lot more effort to try and manipulate prices. Anyways, this is a condensed version of some ideas that I had. It's late and this is an insomnia-driven reply. I'm interested in any ideas you may have.[/hide]

gratz to the writers this week. they did a great job.

First off, it's good to finally see a civilized discussion pertaining to this matter. You give knowledgeable, valid points to your argument as well. If for nothing else, we can debate this topic simply for the interesting parallels in the game. There are instances of price manipulation that are similar to the models merchant clans use in the game that date prior to the Sherman Act. Off the top of my head, the Fisk/Gould gold scandal in the 1860s would probably be one of the most famous, as it not only crashed the price of gold, but managed to tarnish the reputation of a President. While I am in favor of capitalism, my definition is different from yours. In its simplest form, capitalism means private businesses operate trade instead of governments. It doesn't mean a lawless economy. The United States has had to learn this over the years. Having laws to promote fair trading practices doesn't constitute socialism. It's more like the referees in a football game. They're just there to make sure everybody is playing fair. Capitalism works through competition, sellers and buyers competing with each other. The ideal outcome is you have enough competing sellers to balance out the demand, which creates a perfect competition market. When someone steps in to corner the market, they disrupt that flow of supply and demand. When you can convince a few of your competitors to join in with you and buy out a product, it further eliminates competition amongst the sellers. I tend to think of merchant clans as more of a collusion. The manipulation can disrupt the natural supply and demand, and can destabilize the market. Here's a graph of the prices of Magic Seeds: The [bleep]e is clear, and the price of the seeds shot well above it's true value. I don't know who would pay 300k+ for magic seeds. Now, if you happened to be holding Magic Seeds prior to this [bleep]e, then it would've made you a good profit, but if you noticed the increase in price later, there isn't much you can do to meet the artificial "demand" created as they are a difficult item to gather. Also, notice how long it took to balance out prices afterwards. This graph isn't unique to the situation either. The point I'm trying to make is the [bleep]e in price isn't the result of capitalism. Prior to the GE, you rarely saw prices move like this, save for maybe the rares market. So why didn't we see huge shifts in prices like this before when we didn't even have trade caps? Short answer, because we weren't all trading on the GE. The GE system has made it easy for manipulation to occur, because all trades are moving within one machine. In the real world, price manipulation of this magnitude would result in legal penalties, because it could cause a crisis and a panic selloff. However, we tend to look at it on RS and go, "Well, it's just a game. Nobody's getting hurt." I also understand though how difficult it would be to stop price manipulation without rewriting the economic system for RS. There was a poster on another thread I made that stated a very good point. He said that because price manipulators are so imbedded into the economy now, getting rid of them would be like ripping out the foundation of your house to get at an annoying bush. I still think it is a problem in the game, and I think something could be done without the "government" further restricting trade, or arbitrarily handing out bans. I think you could open up trade by creating competition against the GE itself, or they will have to somehow fix the mechanics of the GE. I would enjoy debating with you further on this. I'm keen to what your response may be.

While the game has certainly changed since I started, and I haven't been playing as long as many people either, I haven't noticed a considerable change in attitude. There was no helping hands to guide me through the game. I do remember someone luring newbies into the Wildy though. I remember lots of scamming going on, too. Oh, and the beggars were quite annoying. I also remember seeing several threads similar to this when I started in early '06. At that time the culprit to be blamed was MiniClip. Then I also remember reading posts such as this one in the news archives in January 2003: http://news.runescape.com/newsitem.ws?id=48. This leads me to believe that bad apples have always been in the game.