Earth_Poet

in a ponzi scheme there are no investments actually being made. there is no product. it's just somebody robbing guys to pay back the guys they robbed earlier. it really has nothing to do with the market itself, because the money never touches anything. in clans they are actually do make investments to purchase something.

I also want to address the issue about Bluerose being an example of price manipulation. You could say her 99 smithing and her decisions on how to use it was price manipulation, but I wouldn't have called it the illegal kind. Illegal price manipulating is when both the true value of a product and the liquidity in the market are undermined. Bluerose was affecting liquidity of the market, but she wasn't manipulating the value of her products. It would be the same as if a farmer decided what crop to grow this summer. If corn has a high price, then he grows corn in anticipation of this. His corn eventually floods the market, and the price of corn eventually drops. If corn prices are low this year, then the farmer may wait a year and plant something else until the price goes back up, thus restricting liquidity in the market. In the clan merchant scenarios, they are intentionally restricting the liquidity in the market in order to drive prices up artificially. The prices do not reflect true value, because what is readily available in liquidity is not being accurately portrayed.

just skimmed the thread but this stuck out. these merch clans are nothing less than a ponzi scheme. the demand drives itself. profits of early investors have to be paid by investments from later investors. the problem is that no real value is created when these prices go up. and the real demand does not permanently rise, it is based on investors. It's not a ponzi scheme. lol. A ponzi scheme would be if i borrowed 10k from you and promised you 20k next week. Then I go find 2 more people to loan me 10k each and pay you back with their money, then find more people to borrow from to pay back those 2. It's not exactly insider trading either, as someone earlier said. It is price manipulation though, and it does parallel illegal trading in the real world. A better definition would be that clan merchants are a collusion. And the act of price manipulation that is occuring could be referred to as cornering the market. The main difference is in the game it's not exactly a secret. These clans are blatantly doing it out in the open, and bragging about it. In the real world, investors and traders are much more savvy, and so price manipulators have to be very secretive. If other investors catch wind of what is happening, they will usually smell blood in the water and wait out whoever the major seller is until their stock gets too heavy for them and they have to unload, driving the prices down and scoring big dealers for the rest of the traders. Then that gets followed up with trade fines and lawsuits.

Yeah, and here almost every one of those charges 2.53-2.56 in gas. 3 cent difference based on location perhaps. Have you ever seen one of those companies undercut the other by 20 cents a gallon? 50? a whole dollar? That's because every American gasoline company is purchasing the exact same fuel from the exact same pipelines. Competition within these markets are already tight. Occasionally, there is a "gas wars" between competing gas stations in a local market, which drives prices down. In this instance the customer benefits greatly. There have also been issues such as the OPEC cartel in the 70s. In many parts of the southeast, Verizon (Frontier now) Owns EVERY phoneline in the area. Sure you can get dsl where I live from 3 now 2 different companies, but those companies just resale it through verizon. I know they do, because I work with one and we bought out the other because they couldn't afford to pay verizon. Same applies to most of the southeast USA. Verizon/AT&T and bell south just wholesale the lines to other companies to resale their service. There was a time when there was a monopoly on phone service in the U.S. until the early 1980s when Bell was broken up. The point is, if you are going to use real world examples, then you have consider that even free trade markets have restrictions put in place. Government agencies have stepped in to curb practices similar to what is going on in the Runescape economy. What's going on right now is collusion. Players are working together to buy out a dominant share of a particular item to restrict trade of that item and artificially build demand. Practices similar to this in real world have often forced the government to step in with heavy fines and even prison.

I made this post 2 days ago, and at that time it DID reflect what was going on, but you are right. I'm hesitant about changing the title, as that might make people think this is a new thread. If a mod decides this topic has run its course, then I'm cool with them locking it. Another issue is I haven't seen this "official statement" either. I saw another Jmod post saying Swiftkit is okay to use. One said it isn't and another said it is.

No, which is why I don't use it anymore. There is Tiko, but it's not the same IMO.

That sounds boring as hell. It would be a single player game with chat features. Hell, might as well remove chat while you're at it, because you wouldn't need it anymore.

Yes, Jagex originally announced on the main page that all 3rd party software was considered illegal to use, and this included SK (at the time known as Swiftswitch). The reasoning then was that SS included a world switcher which Jagex declared was giving players an unfair advantage. The devs of SS removed the world switcher, and worked hard to comply with Jagex Rules. A few days later Jagex said SS was ok to use. I think this is where most of you are getting this. Then, the next day, Jagex reversed their decision, but decided to post in the forums instead of on the main page. My guess is not to cause such an uproar as they did in the past. They claimed SK was blocking Jagex's ad banners. As far as I know, nothing had been said further on the topic until recently. However, 10s of thousands of players use it every day without hassle from Jagex. I am curious to see what Jagex plans to say about this, BUT I AM NOT WANTING TO START A FLAME WAR. I just wanted people to be aware of what was going on. I don't know all the facts, and as some of you pointing out, the mods might not even know either.

Edit: I want make this clear. While I strongly disagree with this, it is not my intention to incite a riot or flame war against Jagex. Rioting didn't work the first time, and it won't work this time. I wanted to post this to make players aware of it, simply because so many players use SK. It is important they know how we feel, but we should be able to do that in a respectful in mature way. RSOF QFC:14-15-786-58916870 Now mods are saying they will release an offical statement regarding the issue soon. I know tons of people who use SK and think it's perfectly legal. I guess let anybody you know using it to beware. pic courtesy of scouterzach1: Update (June 4): Another Jmod has responded in the RSOF: A Swifkit developer also responded on page 6:

Same here. ;) If weapons are becoming too powerful, then it would make sense to have armor to counter the attacks. Of course, this leads into the problems of defense in my opinion. Also, the quality doesn't have to just move in a straight line. Take godswords for example. All of them have the same stats, but the spec is what sets them apart. AGS can be ideal for pking and boss monsters, while SGS is good for slayer tasks or waterfiend hunting, and BGS makes a good economical choice for players on a budget. To be fair though, high-level players have been getting more attention lately. Correct, and the shortbow was and still is a great cheap weapon, however even after the changes, many rangers still complained and moaned when they just got a very powerful and useful upgrade. Some rangers may have complained, but what they say and what they do are two different things. Crossbows have become the new standard, but only after Jagex tweaked them a little. For the mini-game, I believe it needs revamp, not removal like some people want because they feel its useless. Agreed. They outnumber us, by alot, and low levels are the future of the game. Well, geez. You make it sound like we are elderly patients in a nursing home. :lol: I would like to think that we are just as much the future of the game as they are. Plus, like I said before, they won't be low-levels for very long. The goal is to progress upwards, so it would seem fair that we should give feedback on what we think works and what we have problems with. Everyone is going to have their side of the argument. Jagex is neutral territory, but at least they can get an idea of what players are thinking. I pay $5 a month to play, so I should have the right to complain, but Jagex has a whooole lot more at stake to lose, so I imagine they'd like to know what's on players minds. Nope, but I'd say the proportion of lower levels outnumbers the high levels so it's only fair they get a worthy share of the updates. Again, they shouldn't be low levels players for very long. It took me less than six months to get all my melee stats to 70, which at the time allowed me to wear the highest level equipment in the game. Level 70, yet that equals less than 10% of the experience needed to get to 99. More low level equipment means players will only be able to hit that "ceiling" even faster. Four years since they released Barrows, and the highest level equipment today is only 75. I understand not wanting to release updates that only 1% of your players can enjoy, but there are roughly 300,000 players now who have achieved level 80 in attack, strength, and/or defense. Maxed out combat players are using the same equipment as players with level 75 combat skills. Releasing higher end gear doesn't leave out lower level players. It gives them more to look forward to when they do achieve those levels. Look at what skillcapes did to the game; it motivated players to max out levels they previously thought to be pointless. I see a lot of players quit, retire, leave the game, because they feel they've squeezed all the juice out that Runescape has to offer. The only thing they feel they have left is grinding away at skills for more experience. After awhile, it feels like all stick and no carrot.

edit: I just read your response to another poster, and I think I understand a little better. You are targeting those who insist the game be shaped to their whims, not players who simply explain their dissatisfaction? Why not use the same argument for the mid/low-level weapons introduced? Do we really need more weapons that most people won't use? When Slayer came out, it introduced the whip, and that became the prime choice of weapons at least until GWD was released. Why? Because there were virtually no options for high-level players beyond 70 stats. As far as hitting too hard for ko's, I feel it's more of a flaw in how defense is calculated. I believe armor should affect how hard you're hit while defense level should affect how often you're hit. But why do players want new high-level weapons? Because as far as choices go, they get pretty slim at the top. Yeah, after the first couple of months after the new crossbows were introduced, Jagex was wondering why nobody was using them. Because players saw them as too expensive and about as effective as a magic shortbow. So what did Jagex do? They increased the strength and accuracy of the bolts to make them more desirable, and presto! Players started using them. People have been clamoring for new uses in Firemaking and Prayer, as well as other skills, for years. That's why we got the Beacon Lighting Minigame. Food could be a different story. Remember that we aren't all PKers 100% of the time. 40 healing food means players could last even longer in boss fights, slayer tasks, etc.. That would probably depend on the cost and availability of the new food. I wouldn't mind seeing new food though. The players that actually play Trouble Brewing have been asking for improvements. That players that don't play it want something else. It's a bit selfish as you imply, but I want a functional game that I enjoy, not you. Same as everybody else really. If you have a hard time finding anybody actually playing a mini-game, or actually equipping a new, "junk" item, then what does that mean for Runescape? Why should low-level players have a broader choice of equipment? Are you saying I should be considering the needs and wants of low-level players over my own? Consider this then, those low-level players are going to be high-level players someday. What then will the future hold for them? I do agree that players whine excessively about Jagex updates. It's like a sport to them. It's fun to bash Jagex, and be the snobby, apathetic teen bored out of his mind. Eventually, it becomes the boy who cried wolf, and it makes it difficult for players who feel they have a legitimate complaint to be heard over the dull, throbbing noise in the rants section. I believe Jagex wants feedback though after every update. Every company worth their salt does. They want to know how their product is being received by their customers. I would even bet that you, CC, check this thread to see how people responded to your article. We all do it. The point is, it's healthy to tell Jagex what you think, but it needs to be done in a fashion that would actually help Jagex find a solution. Instead of complaining about the volume of whiners in the game, we could show them how to better phrase their complaints to make them constructive and worth reading.

I don't design games for Jagex, so I can't tell you exactly how the system works, but I can try to make a guess based on playing the game. The computer AI uses a sort of "random" number generator. Think of it like rolling dice. Let's say the number values are between 1 and 10, 10 means you get the ore as quickly as possible, and 1 means it will be slow. Each time you click on an ore, The computer "rolls the dice" for you and assigns a number. This ultimately determines your luck. Why do it like this? To create a little bit of chance in the game so that it's not determined entirely by your levels. However, your levels and equipment do affect the dice you are rolling. The big question would be by how much and I don't know. But a lvl 40 miner wielding a rune pickaxe can one-hit the iron ore just like a lvl 99 miner with a rune pickaxe. This says that any number you roll on the dice (save for the very lowest number you could roll) will produce the same one-hit outcome. When it comes to low level ores, the lvl 40 miner's odds are much more even against the lvl 90+, because most rolls for either one will give the same results. This is where you will see more of an outcome such as you describe, where the lower lvl miner's success is being determined more by his timing and luck than what his lvl is giving him. If you the two miners went to a higher level ore, such as gold or higher where you it usually takes more than one-hitting it, you should see the higher lvl miner win out more. Some people may claim different because they've seen one time a miner with lower lvl beat out a higher lvl on gold or mith, but that would be because of a result of lucky rolls. Over the long haul, like say an hour or so, the higher lvl would dominate the higher rocks. The real problem with mining is there aren't enough high level ores to go around for miners. The only sensible option is to train on low-level, "junk" ores. The equipment, which I believe can have a greater influence on your results than your levels, stops at lvl 40.

I voted no, but only because the question asked if I would like to see it. I'm not a fan of twitter, so I'm obviously not going to follow Tip.It. On the other hand, I couldn't see a negative impact being made by creating a twitter account. As other people have mentioned, just don't start posting "exclusive" information there. If you are using it to try and draw twitters to Tip.It than it sound like it could be a good idea. If you find yourself using Tip.It to lure people to twitter, than I'm against it. Either way, twitter just ain't my thang.

What is effect is BH having on BGS's currently?

Over the last couple of days the price of a Bandos Godsword has fallen off the table. Do you think they are being manipulated, or are there other factors involved? How far do you think they will continue to fall, and will the price rebound? Is this a good time to buy or sell? If this is being discussed somewhere else, feel free to point me in that direction and lock this thread.

I think alot of people, at least when I used to train fletching, have already gotten their 99 and moved on. As you said someone pointed out. The fletching guild was not just a social gathering, but a place to attract high alchers wishing to buy bows or trade for supplies. No need for it now.

When it comes to economics, Chuck only knows one thing...and that's kicking [wagon]!

Who said that? I'm trying to figure out whose post you are referring to. If it was mine I wasn't implying law suits, but this is good knowledge.

If enough merchants clans pop up to have all items manipulated, eventually players will lose confidence on the true value of their items and cease to use G.E. for any normal transactions. This may trigger a massive selloff, creating a recession and a market crash. That's a long term effect. The short term effects are what you are feeling right now. Jagex will probably keep tradition and ignore a problem until a crisis ensues.

And how do you determine the value of your money?

That's a quite a nice collection! I pick up every charm. I can't afford not to.

I kind of missed the objective of the first article, but it looks like many others grasped it, so I guess that's what counts most. :

My record is 14 snaps on back-to-back runs. Haven't as much luck with ranarrs as far as I can recall.

You have some points, but I tend to disagree. I believe merchant clans such as the one you describe are currently the biggest threat to the RS economy. This doesn't present an immediate, or sudden threat, but it is slowly building. The last paragraph points this out. You can already see the effects merchant clans can have in certain pockets within the market. Merchant clans are in fact a collusion in an attempt to corner the market on certain items. In other words, they use their strength in numbers to buy out a dominant share of any given item on the market in an attempt to dictate the price demand. You have roughly half of the clan making out with a profit, (unless the clan is really devious) while making it irritating for a few outside players looking to trade this particular item. Right now, the non-merchant has only one viable option, and that is to wait it out until either the price becomes more desirable, or the clan's shenanigans are over. You pointed out that right now there aren't enough merchant clans strong enough to influence the entire market, only individual items. However, the trend as been growing stronger, and more prices are getting manipulated every day. If Jagex decides that price manipulation is fair practice, the trend will only grow. Eventually, you will have enough merchant clans to affect every item on the GE. Prices will become so unstable that consumers (non-merchants) will lose confidence of the true value of any items. Several things could happen next. The most likely scenario is this will create a massive panic selloff, with all players looking to liquidate their bank to cash. This would crash the market, possibly for an extended period of time with only a select few items retaining some sort of value. Eventually, players may look to disregard the GE for trading purposes, and return to person-to-person trading. The mechanics of the GE will cease as you hypothesized. It could even lead to the value of gp becoming suspect, and players beginning to rely on a barter system, possibly with one item becoming more valuable such as logs or fish. Merchant clans can create instant gratification. The players engaged make quick cash and are happy. Many other players feel unaffected by their actions, and so they don't care. I think we need a little more foresight on what effect merchant clans could have on the economy.

People have been talking about an optional censor at least as long as I've been playing. It would be all well and good if everybody ascribed to the "mind-your-own-business" club, but they don't. There are a minority of people who want to enforce their social policies on everybody. Even with their censor on, it will irritate them to no end knowing that curse words are slipping through to someone's screen, somewhere. Ironically, these are the people we try to please. These are the ones we don't want to upset, because these are the ones that take their cases to the Supreme Court (by the way, the case you are referring was about pornography, and they had to go back and add in the word, "serious"). It may be as simple as Jagex wishing to avoid law suits. I don't mind cursing. I just don't want to be cursed at by a complete stranger. There should still be a line somewhere on what is offensive. And of course, I do have my ignore button.