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If we want a dog eat dog world within runescape then what you say is correct. I have made over 150 mill from GE and I rely on others not understanding or having the patience. I do not manipulate prices rather I collect resouces being sold cheap and sell to people needing high amounts of that resource quickly. Manipulation is deliberate targetting of the not so well off in terms of cash and experience and is not a "nice" thing to do. However please do not miss the point!!! Whether we all agree it is good or bad does not matter. My problem is always that should JAGeX decide it is a bad thing then they will put in further controls to prevent this and in the process ruin the very best aspects of the entire GE process. JAGeX mods are already monitoring the situation in the well known clan chat channel and historically are not in favour of a few players monopolising the gaming experience (Why have they not changed party hat prices?)

Good rant. The noise would make a great addition to gameplay. I have 6 rune wc axes of which 5 are broken due to Ents. Most times I break these sort of items is when I watch TV at same time eg I might want to watch a replay of a goal or there might be an important piece of dialoque within a film. This is hardly what JAGeX want to prevent. The most annoying thing is that it is autoers proper that never get caught by the randoms as they are programmed to run.

I reported a level 74 cooking bot only last night and have always reported bots but never for any other reason. (The level 74 was actually killed eventually by the drunken dwarf which amused all of the smelters in Al Kharid)

How does the value of an amulet that has not been strung compare to a completed amulet? Does enchanting them make any difference to the high alch value of Sapphire, emerald, ruby or diamond (non member)?

It is an exellent way to make money in free to play but only at high levels. However you really need to see it as a long term goal. Personally I got to level 35 with virtually only using magic lamps (there were no school teachers at that time). After that I combined crafting with mining or woodcutting. There is no point in f2p in trying to level this skill faster than other more easily levelled skills.

Interesting thoughts!! Actually I am completely different to the original poster. I am free to play but never pked or did BH or clan wars. I detest FOG and The Orb Project. So I skill all the time. I do vary my methods (I am always being asked how I got 99 mining for example and I can only say that I did every method in every place). I also like to go up only one or two levels at a time which is why I now have all skills in the 90s apart from prayer and crafting. However I am now wondering whether I am enjoying this as much as I could and maybe I should go to Clan wars or Bounty Hunter to learn how to play this side of the game.

I just had to laugh at the topic title. I get my mistress to whip me for £30.00 per hour

Sell or smith? Neither Keep them until one of two things happen. a) The price of bars reaches its natural peak and sell at top price then re buy when bars fall to their natural low. B) You reach the smith level to make mith plate which you can then high alch

Cash is king!! I have about 140 mill cash but onlly about 20 mill in items. Having said that I am f2p so I have no expensive items to buy anyway apart from my Santa. I actually keep investing the cash to get more and since I need about 500 mill to level all skills to 99 I need to retain the ability to heavily invest when an item suddenly becomes desirable (eg steel bars when Rocking out first came out).

I do not understand why people insist that prices have dropped since the introduction of the G.E. The price of finished products (armours,rares,potions,weapons,runes etc) have dropped dramatically. This is simply because demand has not changed but supply has become easy. However the price of raw and half made objects have risen just as dramatically. Some examples:- 1. Iron bar - Was 200gp now 240gp 2. Steel bar - Was 550gp now 630gp 3. Coal - Was 170gp now 175 gp 4. Yew logs - Was 310gp now 440gp 5. Big bones - Was 300gp now 390gp 6. Gold ore - Was 400gp now 520gp 7. Raw lobster - Was 300gp now 340gp This is because there are no autoers doing the donkey work and there is less availability ie demand has remained constant but supply has lessened. The G.E is a tool that has enabled players to seethe supply/demand process in action. Personally my belief is that prices will still go further up overall especially when the PvP worlds start and supply is even more strained.

Im not sure whether this is a tip or just some maths to boggle your brain. I hate fishing. In f2p the best place to fish for xp is the barbarian village for trout/salmon which is not really close enough to Edgeville bank for banking purposes if you are only interested in levelling. So the ideal solution has always seemed to me to cook the fish on site then drop. However I have recently noticed a sharp increase in the number of players dropping raws and so I did a little experiment last night to see why. Previously if I fished then cooked then dropped I would gain approx 21k xp fishing per hour and 27k cooking xp per hour. This is tedious in the extreme when you are chasing 750k xp in fishing to next level (93) or 1 mill xp cooking (96) however it is free. Last night I spent two hours fishing and dropping raws and gained 78k fishing and two hours cooking in GE raw lobsters that I bought and gained 228k cooking xp. The fishing rate is not stupendous but it is better than power mining coal and about the same as willow cutting so it gives hope that it is possible to get to 99. The cooking rate is unbelievable and I now intend to get my 99 cook in next week. What of the cost versus time? Let us assume you have the same levels as me ie 6 mill xp to get 99 fish and 3 mill xp to get 99 cook. At the old rates it would take 110 hours approx to get cooking to 99 by which time I would be 3.7 mill xp short on fish xp. Now I would fish and drop raw as no need to cook and this 3.7 mill would take a further 95 hours to do so total time = 205 hours. The other method means I would need to cook 25000 lobsters which would take 27 hours and at 39k xp per hour fishing this would take a further 153 hours ie 180 hours in total. I have saved 25 hours. The lobsters cost 343 each raw and sell for 258 cooked so 25000 would cost 8.575 mill and I would get 6.45 mill back = 2.125 mill. However with the 25 hours saved I can now fight the beetle like things and earn 2 mill back so cost is nothing. So in conclusion there comes a point where dropping raws is the best plan of action. I copied this from a post I made elsewhere. Obviously prices have changed as it was originally written a couple of months ago. However the basic principle is still true. Please also note that once per hour I return to GE to check my investments. This means that I make alot of extra cash by being able to react quickly to any updates. I also bring a full load of raw salmon to sell which pays for all my feathers.

Fishing trout and salmon in Barbarian village gets about 41k xp per hour when you drop. Cooking lobbies in GE gets about 126k per hour xp. Fishing and cooking trout and salmon in Barbarian village gets about 23k xp per hour fishing and 30k xp cooking. It is better to do separately and use the extra hours to make back the money lost on buying lobbies.

I think you have a good plan although buying 300 big bones would hurt me,but from other posts I realise you can easily afford them. I am still in a quandary myself about whether it is better to fightt cockroaches with melee and buy the big bones with the drops gained or fight ice giants and get the big bones at the same time but get less gp from drops. I seem to change my mind every week. I guess variety is the real secret as usual. I think you can make more money at lessers and there would be less messing about and if you have the patience to wait for combat 115 you have a foolproof plan.

If you are f2p which I assume you are then you will get a poor xp per hour rate with Moss giants. If your combat level is higher than 70 then you should really stick to ice giants. They are aggressive for about 10 mins but there are many techniques to not lose too much hp during this stage. 1. Go to a busy world where the ice warriors will be attacking other players so will leave you alone. 2. Hide in the corners for a minute or so. 3. Bring some armour and melee until the time is up. You will need food for this short while. 4. Practice mage by using fire strike on ice giant. It will take up a lot of time killing a single ice giant. I would also suggest you dump the iron arrows and get steel instead at least. (Killing zombies in stronghold should get you about 500 steel arrows per hour) The xp rate is so much better. Watch other rangers and note the "sidestep" technique which allows you to kill ice warriors easily they will also show you safespots you did not realise existed. I got from 60 - 75 range at lessers. No bones was a problem but in the long run I think it was worth it as I could afford to be hit since I brought harpoon for fishing anyway. If your combat is lowish then perhaps concentrate on that until you are high enough not to worry too much about ice warriors. My best range training has been since I became level 115 combat and the ice warriors no longer were aggressive.

As Psycho pointed out this has actually been a really interesting thread and I thank all those that have contributed. However I do like clarity so I am attempting to sum up what has been said and the possible solutions. 1. Price manipulation is real and is happening. On top of that JAGeX are monitoring the situation but have not reacted yet. 2. The majority of players do not like manipulation because of two reasons. Firstly the newer and less experienced players are being exploited (much like the "merchants" did before GE when they would pay workers say 20gp for iron ore or similar). These players do not understand how the GE works and so end up paying over the odds for artificially costed items. These players probably do not even know forums such as this one exist. Secondly it forces more experienced players to pay over the odds when they actually do need an item for combat or quest etc. (By need, I mean to make the most of any playing time they have. not need, as in "I need air). 3. JAGeX will react and this is what most people fear. None of us can guess what JAGeX will do but it is clear that some players can make huge amounts of cash on any number of characters they create. This may well in turn make the business of selling accounts for real money very viable. It is also against the spirit of fairplay which JAGeX does care about. 4. JAGeX will need to be very careful about how they deal with this problem. The majority of players do make some money from GE trading and speculating and some are better than others. It seems agreed that this type of trading is considered acceptable to most players because it is different to manipulation. The fear is that this trading will be stopped as a by product of preventing the manipulators. 5. The clans that encourage this behaviour are greedy and not to be trusted. In my opinion the clan chat that is most often cited is run by players who will not tell the clan chat opportunists the truth ie they will perhaps only buy a product once the run on it has started and will sell earlier than they tell others. Ultimately this is the behaviour that may kill off these clans. There is no honour amongst thieves. If you are not part of the "inner" circle you are probably being exploited yourself. Maybe JAGeX will not need to do anything!! 6. Other solutions that have been suggested have included the limiting of selling to a certain number of items per 4 hours similar to the buying of such items or of limiting the number of an item that can be held by a single player or even creating a completely free market. All of these solutions appear viable and not overly constrictive but certaintly the first two are not universally welcomed due to the fact that they reqire more JAGeX intervention. (I have to say I do like the idea of complete freedom but I do worry that this may incur more player exploitation). We will all have to wait and see but I am very clear on one point. When the changes were made in December 2007 I saw no player holding their hands up and confessing that they bought gold and yet millions were changed each day. All we then got were players bemoaning the loss of wildy etc and blaming JAGeX. Hypocrites!!!! If the same happens to the GE and the average player can no longer make any money through it we will see the same hypocrites (manipulators) complaining how bad JAGeX run their company. I end with an full apology to Player "Siim" I have looked at his recent posts and understand now that his post was not intended to be interpreted as I did and that he is not supporting the clan.

Go start your own thread. This post is aimed against this type of play. I suggest that any players wanting to join this fantastic "bargain basement make me a millionnaire" clan should instead join the " omg make me a brain cell" Edit - Sorry to Siim. I have misinterpreted what was said by him. My understanding is that he is stating that such clans do exist for any unbelievers out there.

Congrats on a nice milestone!!! One small question. Why Lumbridge rather than Barbarian village?

Sorry Knightsword but you misunderstand me. What I am suggesting is that JAGeX might start to fix prices so that no one can manipulate. They will then only change prices themselves when they consider it needed. As for your second point you are right in that it is possible that the players who have stocked up may end up losing loads but only if there is a general education of all players so that they understand that the price must drop if manipulated in this way. So if they wait a while then prices will come down. Then you will see real panic selling by the big boys. Unfortunately even my paltry little methods rely on inexperience and impatience of newer players.

Flash - I do not believe for a minute that the GE works like the stock market. There are rules and regulations governing the stock exchange designed to prevent this manipulation. Speculation is based on many factors but mainly does the buyer believe the price for stock represents good value (or he has inside knowledge). There are of course cases where a stock is hyped up but you can be sure that each and every trade in that particular stock will be scrutinised. This is really my worry though. Will JAGeX apply more rules and regulations to prevent this behaviour which is not about supply and demand but more about exploiting less well off players and forcing them to accept inflated prices? If they do this it will kill of merchanting completely and fixed prices may become re rigueur. I absolutely believe that JAGeX hate this aspect of the game.

I actually think Mario Sunny has made a really valid point and it does make sense of what I am personally seeing. My marketing methods rely on a fairly stable market or either rising or falling slowly. When prices change by the maximum amount I get caught flat footed. However I do still believe that there is no smoke without fire and that some very deliberate manipulation is happening. You have to remember that 50 guys with billions can buy up whole markets easily.

Feb 24 2029. Im off to play with the traffic to prove them wrong.

That is correct, but you can sell any number after that 4 hours. This means you can stock up on an item as its price gradually rises and dump the entire lot in one hit ie (and this was an example used on these boards) buy wool at max price then four hours later buy again until update at which point the price has risen. Then repeat until the wool has reached a very much higher level. Then dump the lot at the latest mid price. If they only allowed you to sell in groups every 4 hours then the price would gradually fall again as you sold so no profit (and probably a loss) would occur. Edit - This is in response to Bijay In response to Omali I have to say that no one needs that many gems but that is similar to old style merchanteering ie I collect these together so someone else can buy en masse. I really do not want this stopped but I am afraid that it might happen if JAGeX WIELD A BIG STICK

There have been some strange goings on in the market place in the last few weeks. Prices of even the most ordinary items have yoyoed. There has been a lot of mutterings about market manipulation by groups of wealthy players. At times it has been impossible to buy at mid price or even just above common every day items. Price updates appear more frequent and in general the market has appeared more unstable. I had not really believed in the market manipulation theories but now I do. I ahve made some bad decisions on trading which has not happened before and I am losing money more often. The question is (and this is assuming I am correct above which obviously is not factual) what can be done to stop this manipulation and will JAGeX bother. The really easy way would be to introduce a system where nobody could buy an item if they already have the maximum allowed in their account (so if you had ons SGS you could not bid for another or if you had 5000 uncut diamonds you could not buy more) The other alternative is that the number of items you can sell is equal to the number of items you can buy in any four hours. This would prevent one person buying for example all the wool and then selling 200k balls of it when it hit the price the player had manipulated to. Do we really want this to happen and is it necessary? or am I just upset my old marketing strategies need refining?

Im with Eddo89 on this one. F2p is much more of a grindfest because that is mainly all there is to do. This actually results in it being as easy to level in f2p as members. It is because I do not have to do quests etc that I will always be f2p. I have a goal in sight ie 99s in all f2p skills. I only have 4 but that means I will be able to retire relatively soon with my goals achieved. It would absolutely drive me nuts to suddenly find JAGeX had introduced a new f2p skill. So both are accomplishments in completely different ways. Do I personally feel I have accomplished anything by getting a 99 in mining. No not really its just a means to an end.

I am with you Mauranius as far as some of the points you make and I will add my thoughts on these:- 1. The two minigames that help runecrafting ie FOG and The Orb project are rubbish and do not even match up to a poor miniclip game. They rely very much on cooperation with your adversary (ie no logging out when losing , no deliberately hepling other team etc). The rewards given ie gloves and tabs take so long to collect that they are not good for players that are really only interested in xp rates. 2. The "idea" that the game might be great has caused an enormous number of lower levelled crafters to craft their own airs for their own xp. This has probably caused the air price to drop. This price will rise again as players at level 30 odd start to realise that the game is not as good as they think and also how hard it is to raise runecrafting at only 6k per hour. 3. We mainly agree that assisters should not lie about the help they can give and it is woeful that JAGeX have not implemented a solution. It must be embarrassing for player mods in the altar to see these "scammers" and just stand around hopelessly. For those people who think that this is not scamming and that the players should look up the assisters in the high scores I would remind you that we were all newbs who never knew about high scores etc. (In all seriousness I was level 40ish runecrafter before I stumbled on World 16). It is not in the spirit of the game. 4. JAGeX have helped us more than hindered in the long term. The release of the G.E has given all players so much more opportunity to level other skills such as prayer so much faster which compensates somewhat. We all remember the times of sitting in Falador East bank screaming " Buying 20k steel bars @ 550" (Price has gone up of course) and hated it. What about getting wool? My most abhorred job of all. So what to do? For you personally it is simple because you have used the assisting and noted for unnoted old method to get to such a high level that you can use tiaras etc in any case so relax. It is possible to get 15k per hour which means you just have to spend 2 hours per day instead of one hour(and you can do it when you want with breaks etc). For the rest of us we will just need to re adjust targets. We can run our own airs and make 80k per hour (price of essence has dropped so this is achievable with teleport and cabbage port). This method also gives 7200k xp per hour. The members that were using the air altar for assisting will leave as the xp rate drops and air runners will return so at some point it will be worthwhile again. There are other skills to get 99s in which I will do and if I only have 2 left in 1 years time I already know that they will be rc and prayer when I will be able to run my own airs to pay for buying bones. ps Ill be 91 rc this weekend, woot double nats!! Oh blast not member