The_Maddest

I beg to differ. Especially at your combat level.

Just try fighting with full food now, you'll use insane numbers of runes even if your opponent keeps their armour on (unlikely).

Assuming everyone wants a rune weapon the "ko" of a fighter at the same level is actually less damage than the mages normal hit. So having no ko is not a problem when every hit they make has the power of a KO "If the opponent is a mediocrely fast eater, he can out eat the mage. Remember, magic has very slow attacks - not like range where you find it very hard to eat through rapid 18s in a no armour fight. If the opponent knows the mage can hit 16, as soon as they get to 16hp, they will eat. Bear in mind, the mage will also have low hp and the opponents hits will be faster than your own." Ready the replies before you before saying the same thing again? My mage got himself money, seriously, i got fairly decent pks, and i skilled as well. And a melee pure would need to get money from his main by your logic as well.I'm guessing this is in the old wilderness? In PvP, to get access to a decent drop table you need: a) Your opponent to die with 25k, which hardly ever happens B) You need to have 25k risked, which NEVER happens. In the tiny chance you do get a kill, the chance it will be worth about 30k, which pays for about 100 of your casts? At 35 combat? Nope. Yes, but the meleer hits faster, and has more hp, putting up a good fight. Also, rangers have d'hide chaps and vambs which provide good defence against the magicians spells. These hit rapid 9s/10s, ripping through the mages crappy robes. Mage is the underpowered style. Ranged isn't underpowered at all -- you obviously haven't fought a lv99 ranger in a no armour fight. Sorry pic doesn't work : . We're on about pure mages with low hp here. The last thing they want to be doing is wcing with 26k with them. If you read the replies, I said people don't risk 25k when fighting, not that I'm not getting enough drop potential :wall: Sorry mageofpies, I don't want to quote a huge block of text. Most of what you say doesn't relate to -35cbt. And btw, I haven't seen many "cocky noobs with addy (g)" or a "noob with full rune and not a clue how to use it". I think by wearing the rune he's using it pretty well :P . May I add that if you kill someone with addy (g) you don't necessarily get the addy (g) he lost?

I made the point that it is possible to outeat the extremely rapid hits of range, so outeating magic is a piece of cake (not using cake of course :P ) Nope, that isn't correct :S . The topic is "F2P Mage and range are underpowered". However compfreak seems to be the person posting on here most which is why you got that impression. All I did was state that even if the magician gets their opponent to low hp, THEY HAVE NO KO, so the opponent just eats out of the tight spot. This is fairly easy, as stated above. This means that unless the magician leaves safe areas behind, they won't be getting any kills. This is unadvised because it is quite likely you'll run into a clan/higher levels that will destroy you. I'm sorry, but no amount of drop potential is going to give you loot to cover costs from any number of fire blasts. Every mage pure I've spoken to, old wilderness and PvP, say that they needed to be subsidised by the main/spend most of their time money-making. The simple fact is, that Compfreak doesn't seem to understand, that PKers at that level DO NOT raise attack and strength at the same time. This means at that level they will most likely have 20/30 attack. On my lv 40 range/2h pure, I have 56 ranged, 30 attack and 54-ish strength. At that level, only the lv 43-45+ use rune weaponry. Also, do not forget, the magician needs to be risking 25k to get loot, even if the person killed loses 10m. No. Read above -- PKers at that level don't use rune. Also, most PKers at that level are novices so they raise their mage to 25 just for the teleport ASAP.

Not at all. In order to have d hide, they must have 40 defence; this will drastically penalize their range level and max hit. No, 40 ranged is the only requirement to use d'hide chaps and vambraces. Combined with a leather body and coif, this leads to a fair few splashes Mage is only 1 bar slower then a whip, and I wasn't aware that range can hit "rapid 18s" at level 40 range :roll: The rapid 18s are from my main's experience fighting rangers. I'm sorry, aren't we allowed to talk about fighting above the combat of 40 on this thread? This is in the hypothetical example of the meleer using iron armour as opposed to monks/wizard robes/d'hide chaps. In the context, I was talking about if the mage gets a few lucky hits in and gets his opponent to low hp. In that situation, the slow rate at which the magician casts his spells leads to the opponent eating their way out of the tight spot. Your forgetting the little incident of rune scimitars, along with the substantial profit of adamant arrows. One does not use "300+" casts of fire blast; that would be 2.1k+ damage, equivalent to 230+ salmon or 130+ lobsters in a single fight. Another made up number of yours, I suppose? :roll: If you read what I said, it says that you use 300 GOLD PIECES PER CAST, not 300 casts of the spell. You also fail to notice that the new PvP system gives crap loot which doesn't nearly cover the cost of spells used. Except that in this case, your max hit is 16 while your opponents is 11. You already have a built in KO, similar to DH. Notice how I'm not going to jump in and sarcastically comment on how pures with 40 combat are going to have 70 atk/str/def and dharoks in F2P. The comparison does not work because dharok's normal hits hits are much, much higher than the food consumed heals. The same is not true for magic, which, hits only slightly higher than the food consumed heals See above. As I said before, it's not that difficult to break even with mage PKing. Obviously your not going to make a huge profit, but that's true for any PKing. Explain how I can break even with 300gp+ used per cast but only around 300gp loot? The fact that attack isn't raised at the same rate as strength doesn't seem to register in your head. PKers at that lv do NOT use rune weaponry. Heck, at 40 combat only a few do.

It most certainly does. It hits far more then the other two combat skills It outhits melee by fair margin if they are in iron armour, but rangers have d'hide and RAPID hits which put up a rather good fight against magic. At a level when most players have 20-30 HP and the max hit of the other classes is 11, 16 counts as an extremely effective KO. If the opponent is a mediocrely fast eater, he can out eat the mage. Remember, magic has very slow attacks - not like range where you find it very hard to eat through rapid 18s in a no armour fight. If the opponent knows the mage can hit 16, as soon as they get to 16hp, they will eat. Bear in mind, the mage will also have low hp and the opponents hits will be faster than your own. Because low level PKing has very few costs, it's fairly easy to break even - much more so then range or melee. Again, [cabbage]. How do you pay for 300+ a cast of fireblast, possibly with binds with magic ammies and mithril scimitars as loot? My mage pure only ever PKed because they were heavily subsidised by my main, and that was in the old wildy, multicombat areas, where I got most of the kills and I got exactly what my opponent dropped. On the contrary, anything higher than your main weapon's hits can be used pretty well as a KO. What use is the power when you hardly get kills, the kills you do get are magic amulets and mith picks, and you spend 400gp PER CAST.

Look, you said virtually all PvP fights and talked about teleblock. I don't see how either of those statements refers to pure mages under the combat lv 35. I'm going to lay out my points very clearly for you. Under the combat of 35: - Mage doesn't "own" to the degree you've stated. It does have the upper hand against melee though - Magic has no KO, and so if the opponent is to die, it will be by him not escaping. This is unlikely because most of the fighting is around banks. If it isn't, the opponent will almost definitely have a teleport with them. - As a result of the last point, kills are not obtained, meaning both parties lose out - If the mage gets extremely lucky and hits a number of 16s in a row and gets a KO, they get crap loot because people at that level don't risk 25k. Most PKers raise strength before attack, so it is more likely for them to have 20-30 attack at that time.

That, compfreak, is what on earth I am talking about. You also said teleblock. This further led me to the conclusion that you're talking about all levels. And BTW, a kill generally isn't registered as a KO unless the person defeated has food left. A DM doesn't result in a KO.

As happens in virtually all PVP fights that aren't teleblocked or past level 20 wildy. Without any decent KOs, FTP pkers simply fight until they are out of food and tele. At least at this level, it's fairly likely their opponent won't have the magic level to tele, and will have fairly low HP and thus be KOed easily by the 16 hits. That is complete and utter [cabbage]. About 50% of the time when I solo PK either I die or my opponent dies. Don't try and bluff your way through this area of the game which you OBVIOUSLY have no experience with.

Range is great for regular damage dealing -- throw in a 2H and you now have the best KO in the game. You can range/2h with a mediocre level in range or strength as long as you are high in the other. For example, I range/2h with my rubbish ranged lv and I get kills despite my max with addies is 13-14. KO ability rockets as soon as you fighting no armour. Fighting with full armour is a waste of resrouces. F2P mage needs an update for solo PKing :x (for clan PKing it's great :D )

Lol, I'm the opposite. I spend many hours grinding to 50 rc then for 10k tokens for the RC staff. Ahh well, I got it this weekend so I'm all good :

Not quite epic fail. You are probably have the slight upper hand, but unless you are fighting far from a bank (no one at that level does), neither player will get the kill, so you both lose. Stops you getting a kill (assuming that you can) meaning you lose money. Just like if you die. It's very easy to get the kill. You've got the highest max hit, and the only freezing spells in the game. It's far too easy to escape and far too hard to get a KO hit when fighting near a bank, and hardly anyone fights away from the bank at that level. At 40 attack\strength it hits 27? That's odd, I wasn't aware of it. It appears tip.it's max hit calculator differs slightly, saying it's a whopping 10, 11 with a strength pot. It would appear your are dead wrong. I was not talking to you when I said that. Someone said the max with rune scimi is 33 and I pointed out it is 27. Almost impossible to get a PK on any combat style at that level. PK where people aren't crowded around, and you'll find it much easier. Generally speaking, players don't randomly wander about PvP worlds looking for fights -- they stay near a bank where fights are guaranteed. It just leads to more (fun) fighting and less (not fun) walking around.

Are you sure the xp rates are so high, even when you run out of pots? The guthan spear isn't such a great weapon. Also, why does the guy in the vid use a holy symbol when he has a fury in his invo?

Great, you won't die. You won't get the kill either though and you waste money in resources It hits 27. That doesn't really work very well :S . I've tried it a little on wcers on PvP, and even then they escape/I get PJed. The mindset of people is "Look a mage, attack him and he will die because mage sucks on F2P".

When you're happily binding and running, the game thinks you're out of combat so other people can attack you. This is PJing.

Looks like it was you we ran into - you killed our warlord, Svander :(

I will be there! I probably won't be returning though

59 mage is equivalent to 40 attack and 48 strength, assuming you want rune thats just about as good as you can get. Max is 17 with aggressive style strength potion AND ultimate strength. Which requires 31 prayer. Also, no setup with 40 defense and attack and str equivalent of 59 mage can be level 42. So assuming Meleer has these stats. 40 attack 48 str 40 def 50 hp 40 range (d'hide) 31 prayer He is level 54. A mage setup would be 59 mage. 50 hp. 40 defense 31 prayer (Why not put them on even ground) Level 51 Meleer hits a max of 13 with longsword, with less accuracy than the mage due to defense level AND mage being accurate. The KO dose 1 hit more than the mages normal hit. Mage dose constant 16's. And yes, i have f2p pked, before i went member shortly after the introduction of PVP worlds, i had a similar setup without defense and with 43 prayer, and NO ONE my level could stand a chance except for this one range 2her =S. I'm sorry, I meant 40 ranged for the d'hide. Defence is not needed for chaps and vambs :P Compfreak talks about 'when mage maxes out' which is without defence and without prayer, which is around 42-43. Melee around that level does hit 13s-14s with scimi and 16s-17s with 2h. Don't bother trying to estimate a hp level, just check pures fighting on PvP worlds and see how hard they hit. Typically they wear d'hide chaps if they have 40 ranged. This means the meleer has high defence against magic, the mager has no defence against melee, the melee hits slightly faster than the mager, with slightly less power and has a KO weapon. Melee may even win at this point. If pures are told that they're 'abusing the combat system', then 99 defence 99 ranged tanks sure as hell are. Would you like to expand on how much and at what levels you have PKed on pures, and the same about tanks? Safe PvP does not count. Could you possibly be more vague about what you say? #-o Where did you PK using magic where you could use distance to your advantage? It sure wasn't edgeville, and I've already discussed multi-combat PKing. You wouldn't have been able to get a considerable number of kills PKing in the deep wilderness on your own because low levels don't venture there when not in a team. Also, at what combat level are we talking about here? Melee is what, level 20 attack and strength? Really, no one is going to be PKing at level 12 combat. Range does, however, train much faster then melee at any level. What kinda low-level PKer trains attack and strength at the same rate? Oh, and many people including me have PKed at combats lower than 12. Heck, I started PKing on some of my accounts at level 3. Sure, it wasn't profitable -- pures hardly ever are, but it was fun, and people did get kills. What tipped me off was what most of the PKers 115+ on W21 were wearing when fighting :wall: . Most tank rangers? Most tank rangers have combat levels of above 100 because they've trained melee as well. Besides, a 99 defence 99 ranged account will never, ever get kills solo PKing solely because they lack a KO. Sure, they'd win a DM but no one in that low combat range ever fights till the death. Look, the topic is named 'F2P Mage and range underpowered'. So far you've said that ranged is not underpowered as long as it has no defence, no prayer and no melee/ranged levels (despite the fact they still suck for a large proportion of that time). You've also said that rangers aren't underpowered if they don't train melee (despite the fact they'll never get a kill when not in a DM). The fact is, in general fights, melee is needed to win! Mages do not own and rangers need a 2H to get a kill.

The rune full helm/legs combo has been around for a lot longer than you accumulator. Have you used ranged tanks in F2P though? Providing you don't abuse the combat system and get 99 ranged and 99 defence with around 100 combat, they don't 'own' to the degree you describe. Sure, they last a little longer against melee but both the melee and the ranger hit with about the same frequency (at higher levels). At lower levels tanks get owned by pure rangers. If you know much about PKing in F2P, then you'll know that full armour fights only have a minuscule chance of resulting in a kill, which is why everyone uses your 'tank melee gear', also known as the only melee gear. Glad to see you got the point. Having done a little research, magic maxes out (59 magic) at around 42-43 combat, at which point meleers often get 40 defence for d'hide chaps and vambs, hit 13-14 with a scimi (and around 16-17 with 2h), and do very well in fights with mages. At this point the combat triangle is NOT 'mage>>melee' even though mage has just got fire blast. Also, what do you consider a win? Your opponent running from you or keeling over and dying at your feet? The former can just be achieved by flicking on a protection prayer, but the latter isn't achieved by magicians at any level, due to their total lack of a KO. Again, do you have experience with mage pures? It certainly doesn't sound like it. I have, and the only place I managed to PK with them was low level varrok wildy, and by the time I got to blasts (wind), my PKs didn't make enough money to cover the rune and food costs, and other combat styles started to get lots of kills as well. I didn't even bother PKing in solo because you NEVER get a kill and it is just a waste of resources Yes, mage is far more accurate on rune than a scimitar or addy arrows are on rune armour, but the mage is still easily outhit by the meleer because the robes (or d'hide) give very little magic defence. Except the low levels, where it sucks. Really, the guy has a point, range doesn't stand a chance in the low levels, before around 30-40 ranged due to its accuracy being about the same or less than melee's, and the power being rather low. Well ranged is still used under around 115 combat, but above that, generally speaking, people tend to melee.

Take a look at the cost of green d hide vs. rune - the ranger dies and loses 30k, the meleer dies and loses 250k. The ranger should be tanking in rule legs\helm too; the poster made no mention of his or his opponents outfits. Cost is irrelevant. Full rune for melee is the standard gear for melee, and green d'hide with coif is the standard gear for rangers, but they get obliterated in this so they use rune (melee gear) to beef up their defensive stats. But of course, you have only experimented with pures and you have no experience with ranging with rune on verus a fully armoured melee opponent : Sidenote: Why does everyone use the rune helm/legs setup when rune helm/chain one gives better stats? What needs explaining? Up to its cap in FTP, an equally leveled mage will destroy a meleer. Oh, now we're only talking about mages with exactly 59 magic or under? If the account you're talking about is a mage pure, then yes it is great until around 40 combat where you reach 59 magic. Meleers at that level will hit around 12s with scimitar so magic will hit higher and probably more accurately. Pity the "mage >> melee" principle doesn't work with anything other than magic pures under 40 combat.

How is letting a select group of F2P'ers post on the RSOF the same as giving them everything? It isn't - I was poking fun at the idea of "We can't give f2p that - otherwise people won't become p2p." So, my idea for a minimum total level is 759, Makoto says 1100 - any other ideas? What about a length of time? Would this be the same as total level? I.E. Must have played runescape a total of 100 hours, or had an active account (at least 5 hours a month) for a year? I'd say 1000+ total, 90+ combat, all quests done and total hours played, but I don't have a clue for how long. I also believe that there should be a req for P2Pers to post there, not just membership.

Care to explain? I'm assuming you're talking about solo PKing. Range doesn't really do well in full armoured fights. In no armoured fights though, that's where it really shines. Heck, I often use 74 ranged for a range/2h style over my 94 strength scimi/2h setup. Range pures own pures and mains. And how is meleeing in full rune 'tanking'? Is there any offensive F2P melee armour that I've overlooked? This does absolutely nothing for solo PKers (although it's a dream come true for clan PKers like me :D ) Where did you get this idea that mage is a 'support skill'? It's meant to be it's own combat skill, just like melee and range. Sorry but I'm not prepared to get 3k/4k GoP tokens/205 FoG tokens per death in F2P. That just means I'm spending more time in the minigame than I am PKing.

32

Absoulutely amazing. Haven't seen a vid like that in ages. I'd have liked to see more clan vs clan fighting rather than so much clan vs some random guy fighting. If that random person was from a clan/team, then some clips from the multi combat fight would be nice, even if it results in no kills.

Jimmyw3000 lv 103 vs The Maddest lv 108. He was lower and challenged me, so we dueled by Jimmy'd rules: - Range/2h fight - No potions - Any food - No armour (except monks robes) - No overheads Jimmy has 80 ranged, 87 defence and 80 strength, while I have 74 ranged, 80 defence and 94 strength, so that's why he chose those rules. He kindly agreed to a no safing rule as well. The fight started out with him wtfpwning me. I used almost half of my inventory of food, while he didn't eat -- It's amazing how many 0s addy arrows can hit on no armour. I finally got him to eating hp, and hit a 13-19 range/2h KO, almost perfectly executed (been practicing :P ) so the numbers hit in rapid succession. I won having used half an inventory of food, and Jimmy didn't eat :D