Rien

Lady Ninane is correct. The supercompost you've been using also helps to prevent disease.

Exactly. As unfair as it sounds, hearing tragic stories of suffering of others makes us feel grateful that we don't have that kind of life. If we didn't hear horror stories like that, I have the feeling we'd be a lot less appreciate about our lives than we are now. Suffering is necessary. Like having an ugly friend to make you feel good. Pretty disgusting and ultimately a poor design. I agree. Suffering may bring dynamism to our lives, and a select few may appeciate theirs all the more for it, but where does this leave the ture victims--the impoverished and invalid? Does a starving child appreciate his or her life more for having suffered before perishing of malnutrition? Is a person afflicted by some terrible disease grateful for the opportunity to die a slow, painful, and ultimately meaningless death? Hardships are only "enriching" to those who do not truly know them. So why try? Why do anything? As for disease and suffering, research your religions and they are explained in whole as to why they exist. People are not made to do anything. Especially live "wearisome lives." This is why you try. Make better for yourself. But that is besides the point and heading into politics. I Politics. As I explained above, disease and suffering are only "beneficial" to those who have never struggled with some terrible affliction or have had to suffer any serious misfortune. The sick, starving, and downtrodden people of the world are not better off for having to live through their cruel experiences; the only people set to "gain" anything at all from the suffering of others are those forunate enough to not know the true nature of adversity. Drawing satisfaction or appreciation for one's own life from the misery of others is disgusting. And yes, I don't believe there is any "greater purpose" in life, but that's not to say that I won't attempt to accomplish anything or pursue happiness just because of it. Eventually, I will die and be forgotten before too long afterward, but, because of this, I find all the more reason to do what I can now. It won't matter that my life's works will crumble with time; I'll be dead before then, so I won't be there in witness. I don't have to worry about an afterlife (thankfully, since I wouldn't want to live forever anyway), and in this knowledge I am free to pursue my own goals during my time here. I'll make the most of this life which is the only one I'll have to live; it's all the more precious for there being nothing after death. I'll create my own meaning in life; I don't require any "greater purpose" to live for. According to the Bible, since Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, their children were doomed to be born in sin. Yeah, that's how it sounds; even if a person doesn't sin during their lifetime, by the command of God they'd be cast into the fiery pits of Hell, as they were born human and thus "at fault." Christianity holds that all people are God's Creation--His dearly loved children--but since God also created the fruit which He'd known would be eaten by Adam and Eve along with sin itself, He supposedly sees fit to torture the majority of His children for all eternity. And so, because of this, stillborn infants should be locked away in Hell as they were born in sin and couldn't repent. However, and to answer the original question, God makes an exception for young children by absolving them since they weren't "given the opportunity" to accept Christ (again, according to the Bible), which doesn't make any sense when you think about it. After all, if God can absolve children, then why not accept everyone? Everyone is supposedly a "child of God," so why wouldn't He? I hope that you can understand--if even just a little better--why atheists and agnostics cannot accept the Bible as truth. The entire concept simply doesn't make sense.

Occam's razor can go both ways I believe. Is it easier to believe that we are a tremendously rare mathematical mistake or that we are here for a reason? I can't see any greater purpose in our existence. Poverty, disease, and war are starkly prevalent in this world; too many people are born into misery and are made to suffer for the entirety of their brief, wearisome lives. Nothing we can accomplish in our time here is lasting; our works inevitably crumble with time, and even the greatest of us will eventually be forgotten. I understand what you're saying, but Reality is far too cold--too unforgiving--for me to entertain illusions of self-worth or purpose, and, by all means, I'm fortunate compared to many others. I wasn't born into poverty, I enjoy generally fair health, and I'm a citizen of one the most prosperous countries in the world; I can't even begin to imagine the hardships faced by the destitute people of the world. So yes, I do believe we are simply the product of an accident--the sum of a tremendously rare mistake. Yeah, after reading over this post, it definitely sounds cheesy and nihilistic. Ah well, you'll have to excuse me. :lol:

This is where Occam's razor comes into effect. Is it more logical to assume that the Universe has always existed or to exrapolate further and claim that an omniscient, omnipotent being created it? Yes, why should the average person fear Hell? After all, it's only a place of eternal punishment and torment reserved for sinners and non-christians for having committed wrongs of a finite nature. The majority of the people in this world are not Christian, to let you know, so does that mean that only a minority of God's "children" will be allowed to enter into Heaven' bliss? That certainly doesn't reflect well on a supposedly "loving" God--especially since, according to the Bible, He created everyone. Seeing as how He's omniscient and omnipotent, are we to assume that He created everyone knowing that He'd only end up sentencing the majority of His creation to everlasting anguish, and that He did so while having the power to ensure that everyone could enter Heaven but ultimately chose to do nothing about it? Of course, at least in my opinion, no one has anything to fear, since I find it incredibly unlikely that the Christian God exists. Yes, that previous paragraph was a mouthful. :P

Not according to your Holy Bible; if you'd like I can find the passages which support this. Essentially, in Christian beliefs, all unrepentant sinners are cast into Hell, so yes, even shoplifters will be eternally punished if they do not "accept Christ." I'll also have you know that the followers of any other religion aside from Christianity (perhaps, with the debatable exceptions of Judaism and Islam) are to be condemned to Hell as well under the same pretense. To be honest, I don't understand what you're talking about. 'Mind explaining where you're going with this? Additionally, here's a question I'd like for you to answer concerning Purgatory/Limbo (I'd like to test your knowledge, since, frankly, I don't think you know what you're talking about): Are stillborn infants accepted into Heaven?

'So that would mean you've turned 16 today. Happy Birthday! :) No, it means that he turns 17 the day after he posted that. Yeah, that's what I meant; she posted the first message yesterday, and I only quoted it today.

'So that would mean you've turned 16 today. Happy Birthday! :)

If anything, I feel they've somehow gotten worse. :| They played well in the last Cup despite having been placed in the toughest group; if that ref hadn't screwed us over in the Italy game, we'd have advanced along with the Czechs. I have to admit, I still get angry when I see clips from that game. :lol: Anyway, losing to Costa Rica *again* in the qualifiers and struggling to beat Honduras is not what I'd consider an improvement. I'll be supporting them as always in the Cup, but I know I'll only be disappointed again. Germany is another favorite team of mine, but they were a disappointment in the last Cup as well after they lost to Italy in the semi-finals (having let in two goals during overtime). Ah well, I'll be watching it obsessively whether or not my teams play well.

One word: Evolution. I refuse to even begin considering that a word written in the Bible has any degree of truth behind it, nor can I believe that there's some form of higher being. And if I'm wrong, I'll gladly burn in hell for not believing, I don't give a [cabbage]. Well evolution had to start somewhere. (GOD) Heh, this concept keeps cropping up and being rehashed every five pages or so. :lol: I'll pose a simple question: If God created the Universe, then who or what created God? Your answer will probably be something along the lines of "God has always existed." In turn, I can just as easily suggest that it is the Universe which has always existed in a cyclic model of renewal through an infinite series of Big Bangs and Big Crunches--and, furthermore, Occam's razor would seem to support me in this. Before you continue, I'd suggest you read through these pages to gain a better understanding of the argument: Causality Infinite Regression (Turtles)

There is no proof to say that they did adjust prices manually and if magzar's explanation is correct then that is proof they didn't. I hope that's true; I'd be relieved to learn that it is. :lol:

Ahh, certainly. A great deal of the confusion now is a product of miscommunication. Jagex needs to publically announce (and not just in some clan chat or RSOF thread) that they are opposed to price manipulation; that has to be the first step. I doubt that they'll be able to issue a clearly-defined rule forbidding it (as we've seen in this thread, there are simply too many conditionals involved), but there must be some way to take action and gradually limit or curb price manipulation. There are reasonable methods to handle the situation, I'm sure, but taking pot-shots at individual clans is definitely not the answer.

So it's a sad day when a company intervenes on a major problem that is hurting their players and the economy? I think not. Thats like saying it's a sad day when macro's were banned..... Don't be mistaken; I'm not suggesting that these manipulators are in the right--far from it. It's just that crucifying the mass-merchanting clans is only scapegoating writ large. The players engaged in manipulation practices are merely opportunists making use of the trade system Jagex made available in lieu of a free-market economy; they do not deserve to be vilified and banned to cover for Jagex's mistakes, as they are not the root of the problem--only a symptom. The people at Jagex are brilliant; as part of the gaming company which has gone farther and been more successful than any other in combating RWT, I'm sure they can devise some solution to this problem which will be agreeable to everyone. Hunting their own players is not the answer, rather, they should be working with us to solve this.

It'll be a sad day indeed when Jagex feels obliged to (1) hunt down their own players for inappropriately trading by means of a flawed system and (2) actively sabotage suspected "illegal" trades. :|

This thread has been explosive because it's the first interesting, debate-worthy topic to come up in quite awhile. :P I just can't understand how people can applaud a Jmod for having manipulated an item price to lash out at price-manipulating clans. The hypocrisy is stunning, and it's not even the manipulating players' fault; they're merely a product of a flawed system. This quote comes to mind in regard to the Jmod's actions:

Das mentioned the problem with this before; how do you define price manipulation? There are many players who have access to vast, hoarded stocks of various supplies and resources. If one or more of these players decided to liquidate their assets, and it caused for a significant price fluctuation to occur, how is Jagex to know whether they were secretly "plotting" to manipulate the price or if they were simply selling off their stock? How many percentage points would the price of an item have to rise or fall for the trade to be considered manipulation, anyway? How can Jagex determine the intent of the seller/buyer and find fault in their actions? Why should players be banned when it is the GE that is so severely flawed in the first place? I could continue on and on with the rhetorical questions. EDIT: I'm slow to the submit button. :lol:

'Nothing like a free market, eh? :P The fact that bots also provided a plentiful supply of cheap raw materials/resources for high-level players was pretty nice too--even if it did harm F2P'ers and other resourse-gatherers. It's too bad that Jagex was forced into eliminating unrestricted trade, but with the banks on them about RWT and the possibility of lawsuits looming, I suppose they had no choice. :|

Yep, that'd certainly be nice. Unfortunately, it'll never be so--too much freedom will precipitate RWT, while too little will inevitably result in Jagex setting rigid price restrictions. There is no middle ground in this conflict, and since rampant RWT is not an option (as Jagex has made clear), we'll have to make due with a flawed system. At least manipulators can't cause any permanent damage; the prices of the items they merchant will always rebound at some point. The formation of mass merchanting/price manipulating clans is a necessary evil 'scapers will have to tolerate, because Jagex can't allow free trade but will only make our current situation worse if they try to rectify the "problem" posed by these clans. 'Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Not true, uncertainty is one of the worst things for an economy. If I know when I buy item x that It doesn't have the potential to suddenly lose half of it's value I am much more willing to buy. Uncertainty scares buyers and sellers because their items might suddenly become worth far more or far less So, do I take your statement to mean that you'd rather Jagex set prices on every tradeable item and leave it at that? Because if item prices stagnate, then they might as well do so. I'm not saying that unpredictable prices are desirable, but where's the interest in participating in a stale market? Free trade would be ideal, but since we can't have that, I'd prefer the minor tamperings of price manipulators over the hoarding of items by players as a result of the fixed floor/ceiling prices implemented by Jagex.

I would say that while it may harm certain players or benefit others at different times, price manipulation overall lends much-needed dynamism to the economy. 'Better for prices to be wildly fluctuating than for them to become stagnant, I'd say.

Heh, I wish I had taken the opportunity to play during the RSC era; from your descriptions and what I've learned from other players, I'd imagine RSC was extraordinarily interesting. *Wistful* :| As for my opinion, if Mod Mat K artificially depressed the price of limpwurts (as would appear to be the case) to deliberately interfere with the workings of a merchanting clan, then I am greatly disappointed. I doubt anyone aside from the manipulators themselves would would endorse the flagrant price manipulations these merchanting clans orchestrate, but striking back at the players by intentionally abusing one's powers to adversely adjust specific GE prices is nothing more than childish and hypocritical. I don't particularly care for the people involved in mass merchanting clans (I do believe that manipulating prices via the flaws in the GE is not in the spirit of the game), but I can also understand that this form of emergent gameplay arose as a direct result of implementing the GE to combat RWT. Free trade is the superior economic model, in my opinion, and I believe RuneScape lost a great deal of its allure when Jagex was forced to limit trade and set certain restrictions--even if it was a necessary action. Being a more or less self-sufficient player myself, the price fluctuations created by merchanting clans does me little harm, so in that aspect the effects of the GE don't concern me. However, the GE has harmed everyone--those reliant and self-sufficient alike--in that its "convenience" has effectively crippled player interaction and caused for a markedly evident decline in the RuneScape community. Similarly to the additions of the home teleport and gravestones, practically everyone makes use of such updates for individual benefit and convenience, but this, in turn, only serves to slowly poison the game itself. It's a shame, really; it's painfully clear to me why so many "old-school" players can hardly bring themselves to play these days. Anyway, and before I go too far off on a tangent, I mean to say that blaming manipulators soley for price fluctuations and the problems average 'scapers experience with the GE is a misguided attempt to scapegoat a generally disliked group of players. They are merely taking advantage of blatantly obvious flaws in the system and staying informed to profit themselves; by all means, they are simply utilizing their resources and being intelligent. Who can blame them for that?

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5434/sirmolk.png Cheers. :)

Moad, did you resave your JPEG picture as PNG? I can't seem to save it to my computer (so that I could then transparentize it) in PNG format, so this is what I'm led to believe. [hide=][/hide] Abc1230, I can't say I understand what you mean. :? If there's something wrong with your picture, you can repost it, and I'll make the necessary corrections.

The idea you're getting at is that essentialy, everything is opinion. Things which are percieved to be true by enough people are called 'facts' for convinience's sake. For example, it is the opinion of the vast majority of human beings that 2+2=4, but that doesn't make it true. Those who are skepticaly inclined like to describe those who belive in the paranoramal or the spiritual world as deluded, without realizing it implies some objective measure of truth--which does not and cannot exist. It's very confusing and totally impracticle for consideration in decision-making, but I think it's something we should all have at the back of our minds. It's a brilliant quote; your conversation reminded me of it, and I think it applies well to that train of thought. Anyway, I believe that each of us must create our own meaning in life; there is no purpose to be "found" in our existence. In truth, we are little more than miserable, lonely creatures of little consequence. We live for but a brief span of years and will leave no lasting mark on the universe upon death. Therefore, in knowing that our actions are ultimately accomplished in vain of any "greater purpose," we must make a choice: to accept as truth the philosophy of nihilism and quietly bow out of existence, or to acknowledge its verity and yet strive in opposition regardless--however futile and nonsensical the effort may be. This actually brings me to two addition quotes, so I'll leave these in conclusion.

I thought something about Musky's picture was a bit off, so I took a closer look and made a correction. http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6995/musky44.png By the way, Musky, you took the picture with the anti-aliasing option activated, right? 'Not that it matters in regard to your picture being accepted, but you could probably have saved yourself some trouble while cropping had you turned it off. :P

You can get one extra point every week by discovering a hidden polar bear spy. :lol: