AlexRose

I don't know, we always seem to get Flesh Spoiler or World-Gorger whenever there's a woman in the party. And they're not always reliable with their protection prayers...

I'd be slightly more hesitant making generalizations that only vaguely reflect the actual content of the original poster. I realize you were echoing the sentiments of GuideforScapers, but there's no need to extend an offhand rib in a cynical manner.

Oh, be nice Ancient. There's nothing wrong with deciding that speed isn't your main priority when Dungeoneering. That generalization is assuming, of course, a player has been more or less been playing consistently for the past 10 or so months and has discovered how much he likes or dislikes dungeoneering (I initially did not like Dungeoneering; it took me till about level 50 before it grew on me).

A team with more players or a larger floor improve the chances, but ultimately it comes down to luck.

Aww, that was very nice Obt. I was inspired to give a level 60 with partial rune armor and a dragon dagger 500k because of your actions, figuring something along those lines happened to him. And if not, well, he needed the 500k more than I did. The very first thing that came out of his mouth (well, text above his head) was: "Got anymore" ...I really hope there are more people like you around Deaf. I hope you enjoy that million GP. Good luck with Dragon Slayer, I'm sure you'll beat that dragon's ass this time.

It's really not that hard. It's also not hard to become a pker, if you know what that means. Yesterday I was able to kill them very easily with ~300k risk, if i get teamed, glory tele edge, switch servers and back. Yakking the drops insures that you don't lose anything. It's definitely easier than having perfect concentration for more than 10 minutes. And even if you're not towards the maxed end of the spectrum, the complete walls scattered around the area buys you plenty of time to switch to your glory and teleport if a pker comes knocking. Although, if I may ask, what's your set up xpx? I'd rather like a lower risk setup than the one I'm currently using (~600k+void pieces).

I mean in inventory. And that's a shame. Oh well, just going to have to be quick with that glory switch. >_>

See the title.

Now THIS I am interested in.

Well, if there's a lot of people waiting for the grave to collapse, I'd bless for the sole purpose of spiting everyone (and a possible reward from the deceased). If I were alone, however, that's an interesting question. I guess it would come down to how generous I'm feeling that day.

Well, the first thing I'm doing is giving 20 level 3 newbies 50k when free trade comes out. After that... I'll play it by ear. :P

That's F2p, which has considerably less income options than p2p does.

You can make 60 runs an hour? Or is that 1k exp an averaged experience rate? I was under the impression that players generally could do 40-45 runs an hour. A runner every 20 seconds (or two runners that give 13 essence each, minus banking at BoB) would be 180 crafting cycles an hour, which is about 2.75x more essence crafted (considering those cycles are only 26 essence). Strength in numbers. Living Rock Cavern has several high level, agressive monsters, yet skillers can quite safely skill there in World 84. A suficently large service would negate this problem. Accounted for in the Profit per Hour calcs. Ignoring that the benefits provided from the super energies would far exceed the cost of purchase, a stingy runner could buy regular energy potions, which are affordable to pretty much anyone. And again, sufficent strength in numbers would mostly negate the need for armour (or at least large amounts of armour). Which was the idea.

Quit the dungeon and move on to the next one. Believe me, it's better to simply training the skill outside of Dungeoneering than to train it inside.

Last line rephrased: "We need for this publicity stunt to actually WORK, so go tell your friends if you actually want it back!" Also, gf to those who botted the first petition; it's starting to gnaw your butt and might bite it eventually. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2nWh6wui0 1:35. Is that addressed to me, MMH, or both of us? Oh, whoops. I thought you were the original poster of that screenshot. Yes, that was addressed exclusively to MMH. Apologies for the confusion.

Last line rephrased: "We need for this publicity stunt to actually WORK, so go tell your friends if you actually want it back!" Also, gf to those who botted the first petition; it's starting to gnaw your butt and might bite it eventually. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2nWh6wui0 1:35.

And der' fancah void clothin; and holy rock toolsmuhwhatit, they have it so damn easy these days. I remembah when we used ta' run Laws, we had to walk to da' altar, in deh' abyss, both damn ways! *ahem* Again, I'm not thinking about the level 100s+, who do indeed have various methods that earn a considerable amount. I'm thinking more along the lines of the level 60-70 that wields a d scim, granite shield, and rune armour, with like 40-50 in most skills. Those people would be quite interested in raking in 500k an hour. You're right, of course, regarding rich people who would be willing to spend in excess of 50 gp/exp to train Runecrafting quickly. It'd be interesting to see where the equalibirum price would settle for this service. Again, we'd really just have to test it out to see what people would be willing to pay, and how many people would be willing to work for that price.

I disagree with that price range. Yes, for high level players, 500k an hour is pretty slow and wouldn't be enticing. But I believe there's a significant amount of lower leveled players who would be more than satisfied making 500, 400, even 300k an hour with pretty a method that has pretty much no skill requirements. I adknowledged this in my final paragraph. I'm really not sure what exactly level 50 or 60 players would find as enticing in 2010 as they did in 2007, but I still feel that the level is considerably less than a million an hour. What could an average level 60 reasonably spend 2-3 million on?

Ehh, probably not that high. At 60k a cycle (about 1.7 million an hour for runners!), you'd be spending about 130 GP an experience point, which is like 1.3 billion GP to 99 from 80 something. One thing I'd like to know is what the crafting rates were at w66. It'd cost quite a bit less, having only to pay for Pure Essence, but also would give less exp (10 exp an essence there, as opposed to about 18 exp at ZMI). I'm more interested in the effiency comparision between the two services, as opposed to just the ZMI.

Runners For Runners, I assume that: 40 normal runs can be made an hour using the ZMI. The time spent trying to find crafters to trade with, however, takes long enough to allow only 25-30 trades an hour. Pure Essence is 170 each. They do not have access to BoB, Pouches, etc., and trade 26 essence a run. 26 Pure Essence at 170 each costs 4.4k. The amount of profit a runner makes a run is dependent on the amount crafters offer. If a crafter offers 12k per 26 essence, then the Runner makes 7.6k of profit per run. At 25-30 runs an hour, this is 190-230k of profit an hour. At 15k offered per 26 essence, a runner makes a 10.6k profit per run. At 25-30 runs an hour, this is 265k-320k of profit an hour. At 20k offered per 26 essence, a runner makes a 15.6k profit per run. At 25-30 runs an hour, this is 390k-468k of profit an hour. At 25k offered per 26 essence, a runner makes 20.6k profit per run. At 25-30 runs an hour, this is about 500k-600k an hour. The prices offered at these points all outmatch w66 Laws profits, which is (was?) somewhere in the 100-150k range. If this service were to match that average (lets say 130k) for profitability, then runners would have to make 5200 profit a run at 25 runs an hour. For crafters, they would have to offer a little under 10k to meet this profitability. At 180 Cycles an hour, and 865k from the runes crafted, a crafter would need to make about 500k for the service to be worth it at 10k. It's hard to make solid conclusions exclusively off these calculations. Formerly, the profitability of w66 Laws was more than enough to sustain a functioning company, even after the Pure Essence conversion. Although a ZMI service would probably entice higher income players, even at higher offerings, to craft, it's difficult to judge what runners would feel is a "good" profit in 2010. Most highish leveled players can easily make around 500k an hour at Green Dragons, but with the reimplementation of the wilderness, this could change. Lower leveled players, meanwhile, may be attracted even by the lower price ranges, but again, this is difficult to judge. The only real way to test this idea would be to, well, test it!

Alright, I decided to crunch a few numbers (courtesy of RuneWiki's ZMI page). Note that the numbers are very rough estimates, and are used exclusively to gauge the approximate feasibility of an essence running service at the ZMI. Crafters For Crafters, I am assuming that a prospective crafter is: 80 RC can craft at the ZMI altar at a "normal" rate; ~40 runs an hour, with 42 essence a run. Makes a full "craft cycle" on an average of 20 seconds (either trading once for 26 essence and banking runes into a BoB, or trading twice for 13 essence each). Pure Essence is 170 each. With a craft cycle of 26 essence crafted per 20 seconds, which is 180 runs of 26 essence, that is approximately 4.7k essence crafted in an hour. A normal ZMIer crafts 42 essence a run, 40 runs an hour, which is about 1.7k essences crafted in an hour. Hence, a crafter using this service gains 2.75x more experience using this service than a standard ZMIer, or 1.75 more experience additively (subtracting the "1" a crafter would normally receive). Now, according to a RuneWiki test, a level 80 crafter receives on average 7.8k worth of runes per 42 runes, which is 185 gp worth of runes per essence. 26 crafted runes would proportionally be worth 4.8k. With 180 crafting cycles an hour, a crafter would receive 865k worth of runes an hour. The total cost of the crafter's operation is dependent, of course, on his offers to runners. 12k (per 26 essence) pays for the runner's essence and gives approximately the crafted rune's worth, so I will use this value as a baseline. At 180 cycles an hour, 12k costs a crafter 2.15 Million. Factoring in the money gained from the runes produced, and the profit lost from selling the runes crafted the normal way (about 50k), a crafter would pay a whooping 1.29 million an hour using this service. By using the service, a crafter gains an additional 1.75 more experience by paying 1.29 million. In other words, a crafter saves 1.75 hours of runecrafting at the ZMI by paying 1.29 million. For the service to be worth it, a crafter would have to be able to make more than 1.29 million in 1.75 hours, which is a rate of approximately 737k an hour. Hence, a crafter would benefit from using this service, paying 12k every 26 essence, if they made more than 737k an hour. Now, what if runners would be enticed by larger amounts of cash? After all, many higher leveled players make far more than 750k an hour with boss hunting, merchanting, Frost Dragons, etc. What if crafters offered 15k, 20k, or 25k a run? Offering 15k a cycle, a crafter would pay 2.8 million an hour using this service, or 1.83 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 15k a cycle, a crafter would need to make over a million GP an hour. Offering 20k a cycle, a crafter would pay 3.6 million an hour using this service, or 2.73 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 20k a cycle a crafter would need to make over 1.6 million GP an hour. Offering 25k a cycle, a crafter would pay 4.5 million an hour using this service, or 3.63 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 25k a cycle, a crafter would need to make over 2 million GP an hour.

That's a great point, but the players with access to Abyssal familiars, which require a relatively high summoning level for a poorer player, and pouches, which require a medium-highish runecraftng level, would be the least enticed to be a runner (unless people offered huge amounts of cash per run). Yes, trading twice with a runner is faster for the crafter, but it's also less convienent for the runner. This is especially true in full capacity situations where a crafter is surronded and flooded with trades, and may not be able to efficently pick out who he just traded. Not really a problem for the crafter, but an annoyance to a runner. EDIT: I was going to pull some numbers from Zarfot's Runecrafting guide, to see how many runs a runner could make an hour and find some attractive rates, but he took that down. <_< Anyone have rough, approximate ZMI times they could share?

Ahh, alright, that might make the whole thing more feasible. That also removes the variability of the runes crafted (which I was just about to bring up), and allows for lower level crafters a chance to compete with higher leveled ones. Now, what would the rates have to be to appeal to prospective runners? EDIT: Actually, you could use a regular BoB to hold your crafted runes between each trade and exchange 26 essence with each trade. Huh, I'm beginning to like this idea more and more.

And I was expecting nothing but cries of joy in this thread. I'm glad, of course, that we're looking at this from a logical perspective, but the lack of enthusiasm surprises me.

As the guy above me said, most of the professional clans are at least 100+. Without friends, your best bet at this point is 148. It's not great, but it's a lot better than 117.