AlexRose

Was that intentional? I tried putting that all in one sentence and failed terribly. Let me try again. For Floors 1-25, you use the Snake Eyes method. I assume your average "Prestige" experience is 1650, and that you complete each floor in 4 minutes. Then, for 26-35, you do Large 5:5s. I assume that each Large would give you 50k experience on Floor 35, and each Large takes on average an hour (accounting for bad team, preparation time, etc.) When you use that method, you gain 38.8k experience an hour on average. More specifically, you gain 445,483 experience over the course of 11 and two thirds hours. Oh, and for the link to your dungeoneering guide, why do you have someone in above world robes?

I do not doubt you, but your claim over the claim for clams is invalid. Anyway, I'm glad that's over with. That was quite possibly the most boring and attrictional argument I've ever had. I litterally just reworded my argument five times and slightly adjusted it to counter whatever points he brought up. Mediums do indeed seem to be the least stressful dungeons, even when we're going for speed. I would like to see some actual tests done and see how quickly they can be completed. Maybe then I can convince the "maximum efficiency" crowd to do a few. I think your F2p status may be affecting the boss difficultly. Granted, they aren't insanely difficult, but they can be pretty tough on Larges. Anyway, Qeltar. Using the Snake Eye (Complex 1, 1:1, etc.) method for the first 25 floors, as you suggest, and your average "Prestige" experience is 1650, then you do Larges for the last ten floors, and gain 50k experience for each dungeon that takes on average an hour, then you'd be getting 38.8k experience per hour. Congratulations, your method gives you 4k more experience than if you had just done all the floors on large.

I would suggest bringing up something something relevant to Batch 2 (and this was, at one point, relevant. A while back), so that we have some subject material besides this argument. And I think we are just about wrapping this argumen up, actually.

I am completely justified doubting your figures because you have not provided me with a way to try your method. That's the entire issue. We aren't saying that you're untrustworthy, or a liar, or anything like that. But your rates themselves are unreliable because we have no proof otherwise, which you and you alone can rectify. Qeltar has a guide describing how he got his experience rates; where's your proof? And if you would tell us your secret, then perhaps we could find a way to improve on it, whether through trial and error or otherwise. At the very start of Dungeoneering, the community believed that Smalls were the way to go. At that point, we weren't really certain about how the experience worked, so we just assumed that doing Smalls would be faster. Eventually, some higher level dungeoneers realized that Larges were in fact very good for teams, and shared it with the rest of us. In exchange, the rest of the community with a bit of trial and error improved the methods of going through the Large dungeons and developed more and more optimal ways of experience (not killing every monster was one of these). Through sheer numbers, the Large dungeoneering method was improved through the community, because the select few who discovered it decided to share the method. Now in your case, if your method relied on, say doing Complex 1 for the beginning floors, then switching back to Complex 6 for the later floors, then perhaps we could figure out the optimal floor to stop doing Complex 1 and start doing Complex 6, or how to do Complex 1 more effiecently, and so on. That's the entire point of a discussion board and community; to discuss, to improve, and not with merely yourself. In this case, you gain everything from telling your secret.

Because you were attempting to submit your rates as a valid, attainable standard for a discussion that centered around these supposed rates (that or you just wanted to be an arrogant jerk, which I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on). And see, this is the problem; we have no way of repeating your rates, and therefore we cannot confirm it. Why is that? Because you have not given us the supposed information required to achieve those rates, and instead we're getting the rates we normally do. Hence, we can't confirm it. Why am I not questioning Qeltar's rates like yours? One reason is that I have in fact gotten around the rates he has. But then that's still just hearsay. The real reason is that Qeltar has in fact provided evidence on how to obtain the rates he has. He has an entire guide devoted to explaining how he got the rates he did. Thus, his rates have repeatability; when I follow his guide (and I did in-fact play fairly closely to what he suggested before I had read it), I consistently get his experience rates. Thus, his experience rates are proven by repeatability. Did he test his own rates thousands of times? Judging from his Dungeoneering level, most likely not. But is his experience rate repeatable, as given by the direction of his guide? Yes it is. That's fantastic that you are self assured of your own rates, but the rest of us are not. If you wish to assure us of their validity, which is the only reason I'd imagine you'd post them in the first place, then I suggest you give us the information required to be able to repeat your rates.

When the entire validity of your argument rests on having conclusive and repeatable trails of your claims, and not the hearsay you've so far provided, I think it would be prudent to give us the information required so we can verify your rates and move on with this discussion, which has gotten considerably off track. If we can't verify your claims, then we have to assume that your results are unreliable and that you're possibly lieing to us. As i already said, my times doing dungeons aren't anything spectacular compared to the others, so the experiance i'm getting is atleast to a high degree normal. Also, there are only so many things you can do differantly in a dungeon- maybe i use a differant weapon, maybe i use many weapons or kill monsters in a differant fashion, but the bottom line is, those things work for me, and there is no guarantee that i'm doing anything in the most efficent fashion or that anyone else isn't getting even better xp out of soloing, it's just a question of trial and error right now. Still hearsay. I'm not calling you a liar, but until you provide actual, testable, and repeatable evidence, then we have to assume you're an unreliable source, regardless of whatever other sources you claim to be reliable. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. And more irrelvant facts! Assuming you use Qeltar's "Snake-Eyed Method" (which you did not invent, by the way. At best, you get the name.) and averaged 4 minutes a floor, then do Floor 35, gaining 50k experience in an hour, you get 16.4k an hour. Interesting, right?

When the entire validity of your argument rests on having conclusive and repeatable trails of your claims, and not the hearsay you've so far provided, I think it would be prudent to give us the information required so we can verify your rates and move on with this discussion, which has gotten considerably off track. If we can't verify your claims, then we have to assume that your results are unreliable and that you're possibly lieing to us. Irrelvant fact: Doing all the Floors on large, assuming you'd normally get 50k experience on a Floor 35 large dungeon and you averaged an hour a dungeon, gets you 34.8k experience an hour. Make of that what you will.

I wouldn't go that far. If he truly does have some secret that considerably boosts his experience rates, then by all means does he have the right not to disclose it. But in this particular discussion, where his "secret" would prove his point or not, he can't expect us to take his word that these secrets exist. He needs to present the evidence, otherwise it's an invalid point. Off topic from even the semi-off topic discussion, the next time someone does their second to last floor, could you divide the "Average" experience you got from your "Prestige" experience, and relay me that number? I would truly appreciate it.

Your Prestige goes up quite a bit with even just a few more floors complete. I think someone said it doubles every 6 or something levels. It'll be signficantly higher once your Prestige maxes out. Some bosses don't take too much time. but the Skeleton Horde, Stomp, and Planefreezer can all completely ruin your time if they're feeling nasty (I hate Planefreezer with a burning passion). Lexius and Nightgazer can also take a while. I haven't actually timed them myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if the former bosses took more than two minutes.

No, we've been discussing that....

What words he uses has less to do than how he uses them. You can't judge subjectivity solely on word choice. No one on this thread is completely free from subjectivism, but some are more bound than others. In any case, it's pointless for either of you to argue the point. Just discuss the subject at hand and the facts, not the possible motivations behind their presentation. EDIT: Disregard that, I see what you're challenging. But why do we assume that the solo player will have maximum effiency, and yet the teams will always have a crtical flaw? If we assume a team is nearly perfect, they can actually get upwards of 60-65k an hour (a team can complete a large in 40 minutes with about 42-45k a high dungeon). When we take flawed teams into that number, the gap widens.

Well I've had rather different experiences with trees and Bovis, but I can see the point about the difference between making a bow and making a Spear. For magic, you'd still need at least some robes to be optimal (like you need melee armour to be optimal for meleeing), and fighting without a good staff would be like asking you to make a Katagon Spear rather than a Promethium; still functional, but just not as good as it could be. And of course, you do need that 77 runecrafting (unless you give up those Saggitarian arrows, of course). But ultimately, I now think you're right when saying melee is harder to set up. But not by miles. Well, people wih 99 smithing do sometimes opt for the Primal Skirt, figuring they can make the platebody later. But you're right, that was just an example. There are many others that do not see any usage at all...

Simply untrue. The message doesn't show like it does in Mining, but you do in fact lose both speed and logs from the resource attempting to cut with a lower tiered axe. You also need high tiered logs to capture the higher tiers of Bovis. You can make the next tier down, which you are required to do so if Magic or Range is not your primary attack style (or if you wish to sacrifice your defensive armour). True, true. Same applies for axes, however, which you in fact need the same skills for smithing melee armour as well as Ranged. But, again, we were discussing how difficult it was to make all of the equipment for each of the classes. I'm assuming that the style you want to use is not your primary and you must make the materials for it. Considering how practical Melee is, I believe this a reasonable assumption. Though I do suppose it's reasonable to bind Saggitarian Arrows if you're above 77 runecrafting, so I'll drop the arrow issue. Let's keep in mind that people are obsessed with maximum efficency in this game. What would be so special about recieving a Primal Spear or Platebody? Well, it's the best. That's all there is to it. People should at the very least be able to consider these drops and feel conformable expirementing with different combinations and tricks. Slayer drops are a better example, as the monsters are rarer and have more interesting drops, but the current system doesn't allow for this. And again, it's just so much more interesting with more choices; it allows for more specialization and uniqueness between all the party members, rather than being "Melee Soldier A" "Melee Soldier B", etc. But that's an opinion as well....

If we're going to allow binding, then why not assume Melee and Magic can bind armour and ammunition (or in the case of Melee, weapons) as well? Then we don't even need Smithing and Mining for melee anymore! But back on subject, we were discussing how (im)practical it was to make armour/ammunition due to the binding limitations in place. Again, if we assume that we are allowed to bind the relevant combat class, then we can effectively cross out all of the skills we need for all of the classes. Also need to find a decently high leveled tree, cut the logs (Woodcutting), fletch it into a trap (Fletching), and place it. Once that is accomplished, then it takes relatively little time to capture the Bovis. But it's a considerably longer process than you make it out to be. Without bound arrows, which is what we're assuming for all the classes (that you're using it as a secondary), then we can add the Smithing and Mining components as well. Again, patches (and Bovis) are rarer than ores. And 125 casts isn't going to last an entire large dungeon. Assuming 10 casts per Guardian Door/skill room, only about a fifth of the rooms need to be these in order for a mage to run of bloods. Then he would need 77 runecrafting, a rather higher level than 65. Without a bound staff, then you'd need a higher runecrafting to make the more effective staves. Only when using a low tiered pickaxe, which is also applicable to the woodcutting element of Range as well. Speaking of, you'd also need to smelt a high-tiered axe if you wanted one for woodcutting. Smelting does add some time, but about as comparable to spinning the fabric for Magic. Essentially, Range requires a variety of fairly easy skills, with the exception of arrows and axes, which require the two melee skills. The Bovis are rarer than the ores, though still pretty common, and can take a while to set up "gathering" them. Magic uses two "medium" skills and one very hard skill, albeit only requiring lower levels for the most part, and is probably the easiest to gather and make, despite being rarer tan ores. Melee requires two "hard" skills, with pretty common resources scattered about and decently easy to extract. I suppose you could argue that Melee is the hardest due to the skills required, but by no means are the others "much easier" to produce. Not as nearly as much of an advantage as it would be above ground. Monster movement is more intelligent and can work out of safespots, multiple monsters can make it difficult to safespot all of them, and a very sizeable proportion of the monsters Range and Mage, making the point moot.

Please, do not post subjective misinformed information as facts.

It's pretty expensive. But the point being Regarding the attribute system, they were talking about a lot of people tanking in order to prevent their team mates from getting damaged). Yet I haven't really haven't seen any "true" tanking, since the monsters choose their targets almost at random. The defensive stance option, which supposedly increases the chances of a monster attacking you, is hardly ever used due to lack of knowledge and (for me) effectiveness. So rather than increasing the raw defensive stats of a possible "tank", could you possibly add the benefit of making the defensive style, or some other form of the concept, more effective at "luring" monsters instead? It would be far more useful for any tanks to effectively be able to keep damage from their team mates, rather than themselves.

But that's the point; it should have been. Binding is bland, inflexible, severely restricts any sort of specialization, and has so much more potential than it does currently. There's just no strategy for what you want to bind, and yet there should be. It's simply more fun when we have more choices for our characters. Magic is pretty awesome in some circumstances, but Melee hits just as well on the majority monsters, doesn't require making runes and/or a high runecrafting level to use effectively, and melee is alloted defense against two of the attack classes. Range isn't that much more accurate, even with the longbow, and has a rather low maximum hit. Don't get me wrong, Range and Magic both have their uses, but ultimately Melee is far more flexible in more situations. How about if Jagex makes the item binding "curve" more gentle, and in exchange make the dungeons more difficult to compensate for the extra items the players recieve? Simple, keeps the same difficulty, but makes binding more complex and allows for greater specialization. I disagree. Melee armour requires Smithing and Mining, both of which are fairly difficult skills to level. The ores, however, are more common than the Bovi's and Robe patches, making it easier to gather the neccesary materials. Range requires Hunter, Fletching, Woodcutting, and Crafting, the first three being fairly easy skills while Crafting is moderately harder. However, the process of making arrows also requires Smithing and Mining, along with being more complicated than other steps. So Range needs a total of six skills to satisfy its needs, while Melee only needs two . Magic requires Farming and Crafting for robes, both of which are moderate skills. However, making runes and staves (which also needs fletching and woodcutting) requires Runecrafting, which is either one of the slowest or most expensive (depending on how you train it) skills in the game to train. Magic needs a total of three skills to satisfy its needs, one of which is very difficult to train. So dispite the fact that Smithing and Mining are both difficult skills, but by no means is Range and Magic gear "much easier to make". EDIT: Thank you. Fixed that.

The focus on teams makes it a "turd"? That's somewhat harsh... Well, there's goes the shard of dignity I had remaining.

My thoughts exactly. Giving even one additional item to bind adds so much more diversity to a player's options and allows for much more class specialization. Do you bind an additional piece of armour? If so, what type? Do you bind platelegs for even larger bonuses, a plateskirt to compensate for your platebody's weakness, possibly a shield in combination with the new defensive attribute, or do you opt for a piece of bovihide as Qeltar has suggested for some magical defense? Do you bind an addtional weapon, for some extra diversity attacking? If so, do you bind a rapier or dagger for weaker enemies or a 2h/maul for tougher enemies, a pair of guantlets or boots to increase your attack, or do you bind a strong bow or magical staff to give you another attack class? Do you bind a slayer drop, and if so, which one? Perhaps you frequently make armour and food for your team. Should you bind that Promethium or Primal pickaxe for retrieving ore, or an Axe to gain logs for cooking and fletching? The list goes on, and that was merely for one additional item! I would be thrilled if Jagex raised the cap, even if it meant increasing the difficulty of the monsters to compensate for the additional items. Well, we are discussing future dungeoneering changes. I think this line of discussion is relevant enough to be continued. And Qeltar, regarding your Dungeoneering guide, I have some imput to give. Such as not dividing every sub-section into a seperate page! But other things as well.

No, you don't. At least, not on a complexity 6 dungeon where you are trying to do the dungeon properly (not skipping rooms or skipping every monster.) There are bosses that can take close to 5 minutes by themselves to kill solo. Even some of the puzzles can add 2-3 minutes to a solo floor. And then add to that killing regular monsters, picking up and running keys around, ensuring you have enough food for the boss, etc. I've been through this numerous times with people, and when they actually stop and time themselves, they realize they are not getting the numbers they think they are. Using standard "rush" techniques from 5:3, which is to open every door and ignore groups of monsters you don't have to kill (which includes food purposes), I average about 10-12 minutes a game. That factors in mild distractions, mistakes, deaths, puzzles, and other things I seem quite prone to. I've gone faster, but not consistently. I haven't done too many trials, as I don't solo often, but so far this seems about what I'm getting. And it 's impractical to kill all the monsters. It takes time that could be better off completing the dungeon, and the level bonus isn't nearly strong enough to compensate for the lost time. I'd much rather complete a dungeon with 4k experience (on the lower floors) in 10 minutes than complete it with 4.7k experience in 15 minutes. But, it's your choice. And Qeltar, don't divide your guide up into so many little sections. It's a pain clicking and searching all the time for the relevant article.

2 million for pure cash, 20k tokens and 200k for the mixture.

/v/ doesn't get too many Runescape threads, and when they do it's generally a more nostalgia oriented discussion rather than a "join this now" topic. From what I've seen of /b/ (I don't venture that far down the rabit hole), they would do less than they are given credit for. /b/ doesn't randomly stage large-scale attacks on sites; they need some sort of motivation to do so.

And what direction do you believe that Jagex should take in order to improve their game, rather than their current path?

I'm not sure how this works in the actual game, and whether it only applies to the inital "engagement" or any time during the fight, but it may be more efficent in rooms requiring the usage of a protection prayer to have one person attract all the powerful monsters. Their attack would then be blocked on that one person's protection prayer, rather than the the entire groups. Or maybe if one particular person had a huge defense bonus, he could simply tank all the monsters instead. All you do is get one person to go into a room first and that automatically attracts all the monsters. Then he just prays whatever he's getting hit most by, and takes the food drops afterwards to heal himself. Not really what I'd call a 'tank,' since most anyone can effeciently do it even with no armor. All they have to do is pick up a lot of food drops. The AI in Dungeoneering doesn't work like that. Monsters frequently switch "primary" targets when people enter the room, and don't base their attack decisions based on who is presently attacking them. Defensive stance would supposedly make high-leveled monsters ( most likely including bosses) prioritize on you instead. Again, I have no idea how this actually works or how practical it would be to implement, but it would be worth testing. Off topic, I saw you in World 117 Qeltar, when everyone was summoning Ents for no apparent reason. I tried joining your party, but the Ents sort of killed all party making at that point.

20k + 200k cash for 100% recharge And solely tokens?