AlexRose

Regarding #1: While Jagex's reaction to this situation is stubborn and even outright arrgoant, I think you are greatly exaggerating the overall effects on the economy. While there will be some reactionary panic buying and selling, the extra wealth created from this fiasco is not nearly enough to inflate the worth of objects. To have a serious impact on the economy, let's say that climbing boots would have to introduce at least 10% more wealth into the game. Jagex announced two years ago they had a million paying members and 15 million active accounts. I don't know the current numbers, but let's say they have 1.3 million members and 20 million active F2p users, roughly a 30% increase in two years. As a VERY rough and conservative estimate, let's say that each member's account, on average, is worth about 2 million and that each F2p player is worth 100k. With 1.3 million members and 20 million F2p users, we come out with an economy worth 4.6 Trillion. Creating an additional 10% wealth, 460 billion gp, from these climbing boots would require 10.2 Million Climbing boots in the game, or an average 8 pairs of spare climbing boots per member. Considering the advent of metal boots, and the fact that only one pair is required for any actual usage, the vast majority of members would not have more than one or two spare boots in their bank. Yes, a few will have more, such as one-defense pures and collectors, but they are far, far outnumbered by other members. Even if we assume that 1% of all members had 100 or more boots, which is dubious at best, they would still not make up much more than 10% of the boots required for the "10% mark". And with the vast majority of members only having three or less pairs, it's reasonable to assume that the total number of boots would fall far below the mark. By no means does this excuse Jagex in anyway, but this update will not destablize or ruin the economy by itself.

It does, now that I look at it. The movements are different, but the basic styles seem definitely inspired by the show's. Huh.

Did you post anything else besides that video on Youtube? I keep hearing people saying you were muted/banned, and are now making a martyr out of you, but the exact reason wasn't specified for the mute/ban. Did you mouth off directly to Jagex or something, in game or out of game, or was it just that video? And how long were you muted/banned for?

As a very relaxed and non-binding goal, I plan to get 90 dungeoneering by the end of Summer. That's about it.

I'm pretty certain that monkey will be used in a later quest. There's really no other reason to even bother with something like that...

Now why would you bind a Primal Full Helm solely because it's "rare"? I can't personally vouch for the Blood Necklace, but I've heard very good things about it from the 90+ dungeoneering crowd. Have you personally tried it? Agreed. Someone on my team once had it. I felt that it was quite average until we got to the boss, a level 400 Geomancer. Holy hell did that thing kick hobgoblin ass. I think that one Ranger was outdamaging the other four of us combined. My question is: does the Hexhunter work on all the bosses that have a magic attack? Or just the ones that are primarily Magic based? I tried the Shadow Silk Hood. I found the protection given against some of the monsters didn't account for the extra damage taken without my platebody, especially when a magic user was in the room. There's just a fairly narrow range of monsters that it truly protects against, and all the other monsters hit far more often. Another problem with the Shadow Silk Hood is that, when you're with your team, the Shadow Silk Hood doesn't negate damage, but merely transfers it over to your other team members. When you're actively clearing a room with your team, it's useless.

They don't have the same stats. They're balanced for outworld use, not the Dungeons.

Shouldn't Jagex reward players for being active and having a more diverse set of activities? It seems counter-inuitive to make the straightfoward method more rewarding.

We were discussing the impact the Late 2007 updates had, not whether botting was right or wrong. Sure, it was a tangent off that subject, but in this case his personal views are irrelevant to the current discussion at hand.

Not many people interested or dedicated. Yep. A good proportion of those members and the resulting player reduction were also botters who quit within the next few months, and the removal of free trade probably lost even more members. And you also have to look at that number relatively. I think there were something like a million subscribers at the end of 2007, so 40 thousand, while quite a huge drop for a series of updates, was only 4% of the total players, not even considering possible alternate accounts that would be considered one person.

The boxed-in advertisments are one thing. Putting an entire top-page banner for an irrelevant product for an entire weekend suggests that they do in fact have at least some control over their advertising policies. I'm not going to argue that Jagex doesn't put profits ahead of experience , but that's a rather pessemistic and selective view of their stance on botting. Even before the issues with stolen credit cards escalated, Jagex was still taking harsh action against botters, at first resetting stats and items then ultimately banning. Randoms were designed specifically to discourage botters, as was the split between Rune Essense and Pure Essense. And during my earlier years picking flax at the flax field, I saw at least two Jagex Moderators log on, make the army of level 3 balds dissapear, then log off. Obviously, credit card issues pressured Jagex to take more drastic action, but by no means were they taking the problem lightly prior to that.

I agree. I found a buyer...a rich collector sold me a Royal Crown for market price (2.5m) + the shield :D 38m profit! Nice!

Why is it that you can't buy tools urself? It takes an insignificant amount of time and the basic tools don't cost that much. Why waste time asking if others brought tools? You should have your own set. Not a good post really...not a good post at all.... Alex, though i'm not suprised the method i'm taking is faster than qeltar's, it still depends alot on the team and how they are doing. Luckily, as of late, i have been able to dungeoneer with mates and that really saves time. Also if you could, i'd be happy if you calculated 5:5 small aswell, +19% for 5:5, -4 average level mod, average prstige at about 8k and floors take an average of 8 minutes 45 seconds. This is for 1-25. Lucky... all of my friends are below level 60 dungeoneering, which leaves me with random teams on World 117. WIth the same 20 minute prepearation bonus for all the lower floors, it's about 40.6k, just a little lower than the 5:3 method (300 experience isn't very significant, however).

Why is it that you can't buy tools urself? It takes an insignificant amount of time and the basic tools don't cost that much. Why waste time asking if others brought tools? You should have your own set. Because teams designate one person to bring the tools, generally the one with the highest total level, to save inventory space and time at the Smuggler. I asked that question to see if I needed to run back and fetch them.

Which reminds me; next time you do your set of 5:3 rushes, would you please note how much "Prestige" Experience you're getting (the second number at the top) on your dungeons? It should stay roughly the same throughout every dungeon, but it'll vary a little depending on how much you did in the dungeon, so just give me a good guess of the average. And could you also tell me about how fast (again, a rough estimate) you complete each floor doing the 5:3 method? I'd really appreciate it if you could do that. The prestige is around about 5700 and hovering about there, a bit less than solo actually, but with so many people i usually get an average of 4 level mod. The 5:3 modifier is 4%. I'm not really certain about the speed, but i'd say 6-8 minutes is a good estimate and an 6 minute 30 seconds average is easily possible on a good team. So you get about a 108-110% bonus? Thank you very much for that information. Helps me out a lot. EDIT: Alright, so I plugged those numbers into my equation. I added a 20 minute team preparation time for the entire set of beginning floors, but besides that assumed you had mostly an "ideal" team that got 6.5 minutes and a 5.7k Prestige experience per floor. Qeltar is going to hate me for this, but for now I'm going to assume your rough estimate time is more or less accurate. So when I plugged in all the numbers, it eventually came out to be 40.9k experience an hour, which is in fact 7% more experience per hour than Qeltar's Snake Eyed method (and would save about 20 hours on the road to 100). HOWEVER, Qeltar's method gets an assumed "perfect" team for all the lower floors due to only being one person, and that would be dubious at best for your method. Furthermore, you can actually use a team (3:1 c1) to do the full rush method, which can easily yield an average of 2 minute a floor. So yeah...

That wouldn't be possible even with the glitch still intact, but wow. Bah, alright. Have fun with it.

Damn... eight million? Actually, I would get rid of it quickly. Jagex is bound to catch on and take it away, so you may as well make some good money off it...

I'll buy it off you for 300k.

I suppose, but that's rather a long shot to go from "Do you have the tools?" to "Wow, this team is probably incompetent". Which reminds me; next time you do your set of 5:3 rushes, would you please note how much "Prestige" Experience you're getting (the second number at the top) on your dungeons? It should stay roughly the same throughout every dungeon, but it'll vary a little depending on how much you did in the dungeon, so just give me a good guess of the average. And could you also tell me about how fast (again, a rough estimate) you complete each floor doing the 5:3 method? I'd really appreciate it if you could do that.

Another very good moral; do not doubt the fact that these people with 90+ dungeoneering know what they're doing. I asked one, who at the time I didn't realize had such a high level (98!) if someone had brought the tools, out of a natural habit. My god, she was so furious that I had doubted that, she ended up quitting the dungeon over it. I mean, really....

More or less. You still need to know how fast each method is and how much experience you get out of it, but it'll generalize how much experience you gain per floor, relative to your "starting" Experience. That's basically what that part of the equation is; the percentage of experience you lose for every floor you go down. Well yes, you do need a general idea of how much experience you're getting using that method. But the problem with averaging the experience is that it's not a linear increase in experience, so you can't simply add the lowest rate and the highest rate and divide by two. Because of this, everytime you adjust the number of floors, or the method you're using, or whatever, you need to run a whole other battery of tests to figure out the experience rate, which is a problem. For my equation, you still need to run a few tests to find how much experience you normally get on your highest floor (which can be done without actually doing the highest floor by taking the "Prestige" experience and multiplying it by whatever bonuses you normally get), but not as nearly as much testing as you'd have to do using your method. All those factors you listed need to be applied for both tests, which can be done with a rough estimate for each. Obviously, you're not going to complete every large in an hour with 50k experience, but it's a rough average used for comparisons. EDIT: Should I just put that in a seperate thread? It's somewhat relevant to the discussion at hand, but...

Then take a screenshot. That I will do. I'll do a quick example with Qeltar's "Snake-Eye" strategy. He recommends doing Complex 1, 1:1 on floors 1-25, and 5:5/5:4 Larges on the remaining ten floors. For his complex 1 runs, he averages about 4 minutes a run and gains about a 660 per Complex 1 floor on Floor 35. For his Large runs, let's say he normally gets 50000 experience on Floor 35, which takes him on average an hour each (that includes set up time, mistakes, bad teams, etc.). So..... B= 35 M1=660 M2=50000 T1= (1/15) In relation to hours T2= 1 x= 10 So when we plug those variables in, we get When we do some basic simpliciation, as in knock out some of those fractions and split sums, we then get We can simply with a calculator, which gets us about 1.54. Multiply that with 165, and we get about 254.51. We're now left with So now all we need to do is solve for those two Sigma expressions. We can do this using a calculator, which I'll do to save us some trouble. Using the calculator, the first equation Turns out to be about 37.44, while the second equation Turns out to be 17.51 . So now we're left with With some simplication, we get which (at last!) gets us. So Qeltar's method gives us, on the whole, 38,340 experience an hour. Neato. I hope someone got something out of that.

Prestige experience is the exact same as the equivelant floor, i.e a Prestige of 13 will yield the same experience as "Base" 13. If you know how much experience you get on your maximum floor, you can then calculate the experience recieved on any other floor by. M/2 * [1+(1-.0657)^x] Where M is the experience you gain on your maximum floor (with the maximum prestige), x is the number of floors below that floor (i.e if you had a max floor of 24, and you wanted to find the experience for 21, then, x would be 3). For example, if I normally get 50 thousand experience for a floor 35 run, and wanted to find out how much experience I get at floor 31,then I would plug in.... 50000/2 * [1+(1-.0657)^4] (1-.0657)^4 turns out to be about .762, so... 25000* [1+.762] 25000*1.762 44050 So we would get about 44050 experience for floor 31, assuming you did it in essentially the same way you did floor 35. This works for any "max" floor and for any floor below it, within a couple points of experience due to rounding.

Do you guys want me to post my efficency equation for this argument? It'll save a lot of time on testing and will still provide more or less accurate results. However, its rather.... long, and I'm not sure how to actually post it on Tip.It other than taking a screenshot.

Because it adds variety to the skill without sacrificing too much experience, and is also a pretty good way of implementing a decent reward for higher levels playing with their lower leveled companions. And Prestige is not the direct cause of the experience rates, because the experience rates were balanced with Prestige in mind. If Jagex wanted this experience rate, then without prestige they'd simply lower the experience for the highest floor instead to compensate. With this system, we get a bit more variety and flexibility regarding which floor we want to play.