AlexRose

The question was whether Jagex should rebalance the Combat System, not whether players are content with it or not. Obviously, those who greatly benefit from the system will be content with it. Excellent point. We should avoid an arms race between the defensive skills and offensive skills, just as we should not have had an arms race between the combat skills. By no means should Defensive equipment overpower its offensive counterparts, but defense should still be balanced to at least provide a protection representative of its contribution to your combat level. It's not really relevant that Range has useless weapons; as long as it has sufficently accessible balanced weapons, then Range can still be competitive with Melee. Another problem with Magic is that there isn't really any uses to the staffs other than a select few (Ancient Staff). All you gain is a slight Magic bonus that already comes from your "armour", a slot and a few GP saved, and the ability to auto-cast (and even that no longer requires a staff). The only benefit Mysticstaves and Battlestaves give is additional Melee Attack, and requires Melee to wield! Compared to regular staves, Ahirm's Staff gives a +5 Magic bonus and a decent attack stat. Magic weapons should give a visible Magic benefit. And yes, another problem with Magic is that the other two sides of the combat triangle can both deploy protection against its attacks. That needs to be amended. I like the idea of introducing Crossbows to F2p. Not only does it provide a new variety of range weapons for F2P (at the moment, your choices are Shortbow or Longbow) but it provides rangers a more powerful option at the cost of their fast hits. Range would still probably not be effective against Melee armor, but Range was designed not to be in the first place. Perhaps a true strengthening for Range would also to be to also increase the potential of Magic, which Range is designed to be strong agaisnt. I fully support introducing Snare into the F2P Magic book. It would be a much need strengthening of Magic and would make the use of a binding spell far more practical. Introducing Entangle is debatable, but I believe the spell has high enough requirements for its potential usefulness. Not to mention it would become an incentive to train Magic to the higher levels. As to introducing the Wave spells; while it would be a benefit for F2p Magics (and would fill the Spell Book up to Teleblock and Entangle), would simply increasing the max hit of F2P Magic by four really make Magic competitive in F2p? Range can hit almost the same amount of damage nearly twice as fast, while melee can easily hit 30s at the same speed. I believe more drastic changes than introducing the Wave spells would be required to make magic competitive in F2p. The misrepresentation of Range and Magic in the Combat Formula is a significant problem, and is most likely because Melee is composed of two skills, not one. Range and Magic might be harder to train, but still does not account for twice the expirience required for Melee over Range and Magic. How can Jagex increase the power of Range and Magic if it is not properly represented in the Combat Formula?

Which is what I find the problem with the 40% Magic Potion; it's too much of a benefit to magic users with 85 (or whatever) Herblore. The other potions have real but not game-breaking benefits; the Magic Potion basically determines whether you're successful with pure magic. *Waits for fat_klutz to make his argument*

There are other ways of boosting combat besides giving bonuses, and of course you assume that all of the skills give +6 in everything. Of course, there's nothing wrong with the 40% magic boost from each skill. Only would give a 15500% bonus. It would certainly make Magic competitive with Melee and Range. :P

Extremes my friend, extremes. Combat will still be the primary role of... combat, but is it a terrible thing for other skills to be integrated into it? I'm not suggesting "ZOMG 99 WOODCUTTING 100% SLASH ATTACK ACCURACY", which you seem to believe I am. Because that (can anyone count how many times I've said this) would not be representative of the effort put into it etc. etc. EDIT: In before Morningrise333 and Master_Smither post far more articulate versions of my argument.

You, sir, win this discussion. It has never really totally represented your combat ability. If you were hiding AGS it was never showed by your combat level, but it greatly effects your ability. If you had agility as stated before it never showed, but it gave you a very good advantage against someone else if you were planning on running. So really never represented their ability in combat from the first place. However, I see that post sides have valid arguments and they are on the opposite sides of the spectrum. It however is important that instead of making a decision because someone is crying about it that Jagex actually looks at the facts and makes a decision not based on majority but on what's right. I think that is what most of us that are against this change are after. I'd hate to see a trend to start that if I whine and spam hard enough that I will get what I want. First of all, thank you for phrasing my argument in a more cohesive manner. The problem is that for a while Jagex had the opposite problem; they seemed to ignore what the players (Pkers?) wanted. Jagex cannot cave into peer pressure, but as you said, they need to begin a trend of educated, well-balanced updates, and should listen to suggestions from their community (and distingush between well-thought out feedback to ranting). So, who here would like to see more skill-combat integration? Perhaps a Slash attack bonus (not damage, simply accuracy) from Woodcutting? Crush bonus from Mining? A boost in Fire magic from firemaking? New familars from Slayer? A chance of cutting two logs at once from Strength? A defense bonus from defense?

Combat Levels have always been a general representation. They are merely a guide for potential, not a completely balanced equation. It will still be a general guide to your combat potential. But if a combat level isn't correlated with herblore at ALL, it is not even attempting to represent ability. So? Then you will have an advantage over people with the same combat level, which is good, because you put more effort into the game. So? Would you be saying the same thing if magic wasn't counted to combat levels, and a level 10 could ice barrage you? Of course not. This used to be the case (not the ice barrage part), and Jagex revamped the combat formula with RS2 to include magic into the formula. It is imperative that combat levels reflect combat ability. If these potions were to be allowed in dangerous PvP, herblore must be factored into combat level. Well obviously you're recieving too much of an advantage for the Effort you put in. I believe that the Effort of gaining 90 Herblore and having an advantage over people of similar combat level but with a lack of Herblore is acceptable. The only part of the update that I concede may be too much of a reward would be the Magic Potion, which I fully support an incremental "Super Magic Potion" that gives a 15-20%. I'd far perfer to make Defense more representative of its current contribution to the Combat Formula instead. (In other words, make it more useful)

As a completely dominant left-handed person, I can personally attest that I use my right hand for the mouse. So your tip would apply to all people.

Combat Levels have always been a general representation. They are merely a guide for potential, not a completely balanced equation. It will still be a general guide to your combat potential. But if a combat level isn't correlated with herblore at ALL, it is not even attempting to represent ability. So? Then you will have an advantage over people with the same combat level, which is good, because you put more effort into the game.

Combat Levels have always been a general representation. They are merely a guide for potential, not a completely balanced equation. It will still be a general guide to your combat potential.

I agree, actually. I totally support a tradeable "Super Magic Potion" that gives 15-20% extra magic damage. Then the bonus given by the Extreme Magic Potion won't be such a radical change. As for OHKOing people, we were actually almost there without the potions, so it's slightly to call it out on that issue. However, there should be more defense in the game, I agree. Certainly! Or maybe you could eat it faster. But 20 HP extra probably wouldn't balance with the Effort involved in 99 Cooking. And I never even thought of giving a bonus the other way around. I think that's a good idea too, so long as it balances with effort. But that wouldn't balance with Effort. Although I did laugh at De-runecrafting.

HA! I think that's the first time on this forum that I have ninja'd someone. ^^

I lost track of this argument, I'll come back to it later when I have more time. But you do need, magic word here, Effort. There are no stat requirements for the rings, but you still need to put Effort into obtaining them by winning games and spending money for your units. Extreme Potions are available to everyone, but they need to apply Effort into obtaining them. The only difference between the rings and Extreme potions is that Herblore gains you levels. Mhmmm, cabbage. Yes, because he put more Effort into the game, therefore he should have an advantage over me. Obviously, 50 Defense levels would probably NOT be a balanced reward in correlation to Effort, but you get the point.

But that's our point. Equipment does not contribute to your combat level, yet plays a vital role to your combat effiency. And yes, they may be tradeable, but you still must put Effort into raising the required cash. Think of Herblore as a weapon that costs one hundred million GP. You put Effort into raising your Herblore level (by putting in the effort to raise one hundred million GP), and therefore deserve Reward in proportion to your Effort. The only reason you are unsatisfied with the update is that this Reward gives an advantage in combat, but I believe that is a fair reward. And to Italics: Let's be civil, please. I actually meant to respond to this argument yesterday, but was side-tracked by life. Alright, let's hypothetically assume that Dragon Claws required While Guthix Sleeps to use the special. Because by doing the quest, you gain an advantage and no disadvantage, would you or would you not support this update? Equipment does contribute to combat level. That Godsword represents 75 attack/strength. That barrows armor represents 70 defense. You would still need the attack to use Dclaws, which contributes to combat level. If they made it so 99 smithing gave you +50 defense would that be ok because you put the effort in? I mean afterall 99 smithing is a lot of money so it would just be like buying an item that gave +50 defense right? Uh not really. You're assuming, of course, that everyone with 75 attack/strength can afford a Godsword. The point is that the Godsword still costs millions, and so you must put Effort into obtaining it. It is NOT reflected in your combat level, and yet you still have an advantage over the person who could only afford the Abyssal Whip. And yes to the Smithing, because you put Effort into it and therefore deserved to be rewarded. In fact, that's a rather excellent idea! Although it would probably be a certain percentage of your armour... I'll be back in a few (hours).

Hello. One of the most common topics on the RSOF Feedback Forum is about which type of combat class is in need of updating, or is sufficently updated and that another class should be updated, etc etc. Although some of the Rants I have seen are, erm, composed of a minimal intelligent thought process. I created this thread so that we could discuss potential problems with the Combat system and what might possible solutions be. This topic is not limited to merely balancing the combat class; it can be used to address other issues that you believe should be addressed and solved. I'll start off (If you have another issue to address, feel free to ignore this one). I believe that Jagex is created too much of a primarly offensive combat system, while leaving defensive armors and tactics under-represented. Battles are being increasingly decided on the one all-out attack strike that can pierce through armor, with your own safetly irrevelant to whether you win the battle or not. I believe that Jagex should not only balance the classes' by increasing their offensive power, but also their defensive power to their respective strength and weaknesses.

Your solution would be a direct, forcible solution. Although the focus would shift from the production of money, and it would reduce player interaction even more and, quite frankly, piss everyone off. An ideal solution would be not to force people to disregard money, or even to reduce the benefits of money-making, but make the other aspects of the game more competitive with money making. However, I'm not sure what is so bad about retaining currency. It is merely the dishonest methods of making money that distract players from the real purpose of the game. So I think a great solution would be to destroy dishonest merchanting and reduce the effectiveness of 76king. That, and the creation of several money sinks that are worthwhile and beneficial; perhaps updating construction to be more cost effective and with more benefits might be a good start?

That's a point that I was wondering when someone would address, and you are right; it is a somewhat flawed analogy. Risk is part of the function for effort (E=Time*Skill*Risk), so that proves that you should not recieve as much of an advantage spending 90 Herblore than using an AGS. However, the main idea still remains; you still put in Effort into raising Herblore, and therefore still deserve an award. I fully support changing the Magic potion to a 20% boost, so that the advantage of the Extreme potion isn't as extreme. I would actually rather have a lower leveled potion availible to F2P that would give a 10% boost as well, and change the 20% to a "Super Magic Potion". Or better yet, a rebalanceing of magic combat so that such extreme boosts are unessesary, but that's another discussion. EDIT: Whoa, how odd that there was no posts for a few hours, then suddenly we're in a four person debate. o_o

But that's our point. Equipment does not contribute to your combat level, yet plays a vital role to your combat effiency. And yes, they may be tradeable, but you still must put Effort into raising the required cash. Think of Herblore as a weapon that costs one hundred million GP. You put Effort into raising your Herblore level (by putting in the effort to raise one hundred million GP), and therefore deserve Reward in proportion to your Effort. The only reason you are unsatisfied with the update is that this Reward gives an advantage in combat, but I believe that is a fair reward. And to Italics: Let's be civil, please. I actually meant to respond to this argument yesterday, but was side-tracked by life. Alright, let's hypothetically assume that Dragon Claws required While Guthix Sleeps to use the special. Because by doing the quest, you gain an advantage and no disadvantage, would you or would you not support this update?

That's not really great EXP though. Ankous would be the middle ground between Pure EXP and drops. But yeah, you really don't need Dragon items. Rune Legs will suit you fine, and Femmy Isles is totally worth it. Spiders hit pretty well on my 73 defense, so I'm not sure those would be very efficent (pardon spelling) at your defense level. Oh, and Defense is the most important training stat in the game. Period.

It's sad because it's true. D: Maybe we could have group prayers? A defense/strength/attack/magic/range bonus to everyone who is attacking what you're attacking (doesn't stack)? Or how about an update to existing prayers that have no real practical use, like HP Restore. Surely that extra hitpoint every minute could be made more practical; maybe three extra hitpoints a minute (x4)? Retribution would be another prayer that has no real practical use, outside of safe Minigames. Maybe a Ring of Recoil effect instead?

I completely agree. The update in principle, integrating skills into combat, is not only acceptable but an idea that I believe Jagex should go further with. However, the update yet again reduces the defensive powers of Runescape, and that's a terrible practice that needs to be ceased. *cracks knuckles* I actually don't know enough about economics to completely refute your Supply and Demand argument, but I'll wing it. Your Supply and Demand argument only would be profitable in a perfectly theoretical world; it is perfectly possible that the equilibrium falls below a profit margin. Their primary ingredients have their own dynamic market, which would be completely unaffected as to whether their extreme counterparts would be profitable or not. The potions would be subject to price manipulation, and would the potions be profitable enough to justify the 96 Herblore required? Implying that Effort is a Function of Total EXP is wrong. To obtain EXP in different skills, you must put variations of effort into each individual skill. Assuming that levels are constant, you must put more effort into gaining Runecrafting exp than you do, say, Cooking. If you can prove that straight 96s and 90 Herblore takes less effort than straight 99s, then your argument holds some validity. But again, Effort is NOT a direct Function of Total EXP. The "downside" of the Extreme set is that it requires 90 Herblore. A Rune 2H provides more strength bonus than an Addy 2H, and yet it has no "downsides", other than needing 10 extra attack levels. Similarly, the Extreme set provides more of a boost then the normal set, and yet needs 90 or so Herblore levels to use. And your last paragraph, well, opposing change because of change is counter-progressive and would severely restrict Jagex's ability to provide us with updates. In other words, that's not an argument, that's an opinion. And it's counter-progressive. To Ray, how is using armor more direct than drinking potions in combat? I don't think that I'm understanding how you're using "direct". And for those wondering, Effort is a function of Time, Skill, and Risk. And Reward should be a function of Effort.

You imply from these posts that your main issue is that only people with high level herblore can recieve the benefits of the potions. If everyone could OHKO, the update would be quite balanced, but because it's only available to people with level 90 Herblore, it's unfair to the people who don't have 90 Herblore. Am I correct? Or are you discontent with the update because Herblore is not represented in combat level, and would thus give an advantage to people who actually possess a high Herblore level? Well, I believe the Godswords do not factor into your combat level, and yet they cost 70 Million GP. That's not really fair to me, who can only afford an abyssal whip, now is it? We're the same combat level, but he has an advantage! That's not fair at all! Do you see where I'm going with this? So, did you oppose the update because people had the ability to OHKO, or that Herblore should not give a combat advantage? If it's the former, then I agree that Jagex's idea of increasing the potential of a combat skill is to raise the potential max hit, which I believe is a terrible way to balance the combat system. If that's the case, then I completely agree with you, but should be balanced by raising the potential of defense to counter-act the ever increasing damage weapons can issue. If it's the latter, then I've phrased an argument opposing that limited idea several times now, including the paragraph above this one. And oh yes, the RSOF is completely the most educated source on the planet. Speaking of which, there seems to be quite a few people on the RSOF who seem to think it was rather unfair for Jagex to remove the potions. So exactly where did you get the idea that the majority of people found it to be a poor update? (Prior sampling doesn't count) well thanks for removing my constructive debate about how i thought that skilling and pvp shouldnt be related........................................... i swear mods on here screw up all the time, i put quite a lot of effort typing my thoughts up and you just remove it way to go I agree. There was no need to remove his posts at all. He WAS contributing to the thread. Almost seems suspicious that the guy who doesn't agree gets his posts removed for seemingly no apparent reason. Anyway, I'll respond to your last post, Silo. I understand your sentiments, but I don't agree that not enjoying an aspect of the game should mean that you shouldn't have to engage in that aspect. Regardless of that, however, I don't think that the Herblore update would have affected PVP as much as you think it would. Very few players have access to the full range of extreme potions, and a large portion of those players are more than likely not player killers. On top of that, I don't think most player killers have the money to invest in 85+ Herblore. Seems like they'd rather put that money into D claws, Morrigan's Javs, 99 Mage, etc, etc. tl;dr I don't think it would have affected PVP all THAT much, except in the case of very high level PVP. Hmmm, well that's just not right. An opposition keeps the conversation going and raises points that were previously not addressed and should be. Well, I have disagree with your last paragraph. If Player Killers can invest in D claws and 99 Magic, then it wouldn't be much of a strech (pardon spelling) for them to spend an extra 60 Million or so for the "Extreme" set. It may not be a standard now, but within a few months it may certainly be. But in any case, I'm not saying that the potions are overpowered. I would treat it like yet another new weapon that people have to save up for. ^^ And responding to the Bold: Thank you, that's what I was getting at.

So all of the wilderness combat battles and PVP from the start of RS2 until this point were senseless and stupid because all they involved was...combat? You're saying that the wilderness and PVP was stupid up until this point because it just rewarded players who had higher combat stats, and it was senseless because a player who had higher crafting could lose to a player who had higher attack. Jagex hasn't rendered PVP a free for all where levels don't matter, combat levels and equipment still play just a big of a role. They made PVP just what it was one week ago, and everyone's acting like they've totally nerfed it even though it's the same as it was I really have to disagree with your point. Combat related skills should yield results in combat related events. If you're good at crafting, you should recieve benefits in crafting, not in agility. Of course there's going to relations between the skills, but your experience in combat should effect your performance in combat and combat alone. There shouldn't be a whole other influence on your performance in combat from a different skill totally unrelated to combat. That's a rather pessimistic way of interpreting his post, as you draw a considerably more negative conclusion than what his tone suggested. He wasn't saying that combat was stupid, but rather that it's not a bad thing that non-combat skills should benefit combat, and that it was a mistake of Jagex to greatly reduce the benefits of having such a high-leveled skill. In any case, I could refute your argument by saying that smithing aids melee fighting, runecrafting helps magic combat, etc.; but I know you would just say it doesn't give as much of a benefit as the Herblore update does. So now we've gotten to the point where we're not actually debating, but whether an increased relation between combat and non-combat skills is a good thing. And on that point I disagree with you on, because I believe that reward should be a function of total effort. Because combat is central to the Runescapian playing experience, I believe it is not out of line for Jagex to use combat as an incentive to raise non-combat skills. In fact, I believe Jagex should take the idea further (An increase in Slash attack accuracy for woodcutting levels, for instance), but that's just me. EDIT: Heh heh, I just got completely ninja'd by the post above me. Curse you and your ninja skills. In any case, I agree with you about Runescape being primarily based on luck. The simplest solution would be to introduce a variety of equally potent, yet different weapons and armor of combat so that various strategies and weapon sets could form. The further integration of all the skills of Runescape could certainly open up new potential. But that's sort of another discussion.

Do go on, I'm interested in your suggestions. :smile:

you point are not suport by fact, you just say opnion and wat jegax said. Hmm, maybe you're right Oxide. >_>

I agree. I've always found it odd that the Runescapian Gods' idea of piety and devotion was to mass bury large quantities of corpses of beasts that in all likelihood you have never even met. I would like to see Prayer as a much more free-formed, fluid skill that truly shows your devotion to your god. If you were in allegiance with Zammorak, and you have demonstrated your full wraith upon your foes (in other words, hitting your maximum hit), wouldn't Zammorak favor your power ever slightly more? If you have donated time and effort into repairing a monastery, doesn't Saradomian appreciate your devotion to his cause and favor you in your journey? Or do the Gods turn their eyes away from everything but the mass burying of large quantities of corpses of beasts that in all likelihood you have never even met. You could even have a God-specific Prayer book, in the same way you use different magick books to cast different spells. Saradomian could aid you in your journey with his divine protection, Zammorak with his unmatched power, and Guthix with the balance of the world. The entire skill could be so much more dynamic than it is now.