Erewhon2

I haven't posted on this thread for some time, because I thought it at all been said....lol. However, this may be a 'well meaning' POV, but the difficulty has been getting people to admit they wanted the crown for status. There seems to be an uwritten concensus that wanting to be a Pmod for status is a 'bad' thing going by the aggravated posts in this thread denouncing that status was ever the reason for accepting the Pmod crown. So let me say a couple of things, firstly why did Jagex even give the Pmod role a 'crown' unless it was to indicate 'status'? A coloured dot or square would have served just as easily. A crown indicates power/authority/status and a hierarchical system, it places one player above another, which is completely inapproriate! And secondly why would anyone choose to be a Pmod? I have heard all the arguments before, but this is a game played for leisure and some Pmods have clearly indicated they find the role tiresome and aggravating and are often the butt of aggressive or fawning behaviour from players. So why choose to do it unless it is purely for the status?

I must say that spammers or advertisers never bother me in the GE, as soon as I spot them they go on my ignore list....so I don't understand why people get wound up about them. Well, even though you ignore them, there are still three factors that make them annoying. 1) Even though you ignore them, the words continue to "fill up" your chatbox as if you turned a chat option "off". This makes chatting to friends/clans at GE nearly impossible. 2) They are still there, so they still lag the GE. 3) With the exception of skill total worlds, they are EVERYWHERE! No matter what world you go on, there will be at least one autotyper at the GE. That's why skill total worlds are kind of a convenience for trading at the GE. No Sonic....I don't 'ignore' them....I put them on my 'ignore list' (see above), thats what that option is for; adding people to it that you don't want to interact with. That means I don't see anything they type, it a great option and I think I must have got nearly all of them on the world I spend most of my time in lol. So when I go to GE it's mostly just the usual chat and babble of the general public.

And how exactly are 1000+ total worlds a means of ignoring requests for help from other players? They're simply another high-level feature for players. Perhaps they do isolate some sects of the community, and perhaps they do encourage elitism to some extent, but for those people that say "1 h4v3 99 c00k r0f1 n00b i 0wn u" wouldn't people relatively new to the game be much better off unexposed to these people? The question was "What's your opinion of 1000+ total worlds?" You've veered off on a tangent that you're unable to connect to the actual question. And again, my personal opinion is that the point of 1000+ total is to be a high level requirement. 1000+ total is a joke in p2p; hence, it should be some sort of total xp requirement. I see far too many people that brag about having 1200 total and then have an amazing 7 digit total xp. I find your judgemental comments about "half of 'scape players" to exactly reflect some of the negative attitudes being expressed on this thread about new or inexperienced players. RS has a huge variety of personalities that play, some are difficult to deal with and others are responsible and mature. RS has always been a 'community' and this is promoted frequently, to start splitting that 'community' into the haves and have nots will inevitably create snobbery, it's human nature. All you have to do is look at the posts on this thread to realise that! I have been playing RS for a very long time and I only occasionally get 'bothered' by a player (whatever level). Other than the odd beggar; who will be advised by me in no uncertain terms how to make money and to go do it lol, I find generally people ask the same kinds of questions and I am happy to answer if I can, i.e have you done such and such a quest? How long will it take them to train this skill? What's the best way of doing a certain skill at their level? And if it gets repetative I direct them towards a guide (usually tip.it ;-) ). I don't think this has veered off topic at all, it is clear that some people are disagreeing with the idea of 1000+ worlds (or 2000+), I certainly am, it goes against the whole principle of a 'community' game. RS was never intended as a 'split' game, to try and change the structure of the game in this way at this late date is just wrong! I must say that spammers or advertisers never bother me in the GE, as soon as I spot them they go on my ignore list....so I don't understand why people get wound up about them.

I've stated that from my pov I couldn't care less whether players price manipulate or merchant so I'm neutral on this subject. In your second paragraph it reads in a similar way to price manipulation in that you all recommend items to buy then dump it. To me, apart from the time scale, theres very little difference to it. You still affect those prices although not as much as a price manipulation clan would. But you're still doing it for your own ends and I think thats what people don't like. You still affect prices. In the end we all do. From my pov, I think those that hate price manipulation/merchants tend to be hypocrites. They don't like this sort of practice when it suits them, BUT, if one of their items rises significantly because of manipulation or merchants you can bet your bottom dollar they will be the first to flog it on the G.E and gleefully take the profit. They cry foul when it doesn't go their way. As I said, the impact a merchanting clan has on GE market prices may not be as significant as a price manipulation clan, but it is still there. Even a single individual will impact in some way, thats how markets work (otherwise what's the point in advertising in RL?). But being part of a 'group' that does it obviously increases the likliehood of causing greater change and that is why merchanting clans get tarred with the same brush as manipulation clans. To deny that you aim to buy and sell at as much profit as you can defeats the purpose of being part of this kind of clan and is naive, therefore you are hardly going to worry that 'flipping' it back on the market in a bigger quantity as you can is going to flood the GE (by however small or large amount), as long as you make your profit. If it bothers people, then don't be part of this kind of clan, and for those who really get offended, well don't use the GE, it is possible to play the game without it! As for being 'acceptable', it's not against the rules and neither are price manipulation clans and as I stated previously Jagex have some good guidelines for those who don't understand this. I think Jrhairychest has made a good point and it reflects my pov in that I am happy to make a profit when I can and wait out the slumps, or even sell at low prices. After all this is a game and I would much rather be playing the RS game than spending all my time at the GE.

Yes they don't pay, but Jagex announced that f2p is not a demo, so why shouldn't it be balanced? I made this thread as a cry for improvement to the f2p combat triangle. So far, nothing has been done about it. I totally agree with Fredar. It is irrelevant that F2P is not a demo, obviously it's not. If it was you would get limited days and probably only get the Lumbridge area to play in. As it is F2P get a massive area, with no time limit, loads of skills they can take to 99, with no limit on the xp, they even have quests, use of a bank, the ability to socialise with others around the world and share online activities etc, etc, etc.....all for absolutely nothing! Why on earth should F2P have more? If you want more, pay for membership, otherwise be grateful for what you do have or go find another free online game that offers as much. I do not think F2P should have surge spells or any other member items or skills, they should only get natural technical upgrades (i.e. graphics) purely to stay up to date.

There was no intention to 'flame', just gain the attention of people in general as well as the OP. Whichever post came first the majority of the discussion including the points you have raised were debated back and forth in the other thread. I understand the line you are attempting to draw between the 2 definitions, but it won't work. Basically because anyone who uses the GE will ultimately influence the prices, the larger the group, the larger the influence. Therefore a 'merchanting clan' will have a sigificant impact on the prices in the GE and this will result in changes whether up or down. A merchanting clan manipulates prices, even if they declare there is no intention of this....of course there is! Every merchanting clan wants the prices to go up and will sell to make a profit, the result being the prices may then fall = price manipulation. Price manipulators may be more aggressive in the way they play this, but any active role in the GE trading changes and manipulates the prices. For those who are interested, Jagex have given some clearer guidelines on this subject, but still emphasis that merchanting clans and price manipulators are not against the rules, I can't get the link to work but you can find the thread by Mod Jon H on the RS forum via Quick find code: 74-75-817-59124146 I personally have no direct problems with either sorts of clans providing they are not breaking the rules. If they bother me with autotyping, advertisers or repetative typing while in the GE I just put them on my ignore list, anyone can do that.

An excellent analogy in your first point and clearly demonstrates the benefit of direct experience. I think you have made a valid point here, which reflects another thread (How Easy Do You Want It). You obviously play RS in a way that you enjoy and take your time about it, in that case it is likely that your experience will provide much more indepth and insightful information than others. It's experience in the particular skill that should be considered not just combat level. There are many players with high cb stats that are not even ranked in other skills, so I would only be inclined to give weight to combat advice and opinions with them. I do challenge those who think they can give solid advice on gameplay and RS in general; if they don't play or have just started playing after a long break, or only use the guides for the skills they don't have experience in. Direct players towards guides by all means, but don't state them as fact. I have just found recently that the none of the guides suited me for the completion of the 'Summer's End' quest, and only by gaining my own experience did I finally manage to finish it. And now I will be happy to pass that direct experience on to others in the game. :grin:

Well you were more 'up front' than me lol, but yes the tip.it guide on the last chamber was not helpful, but hopefully they can update that now

I have just completed the Summer's End quest, I really struggled with this initially as many people seem to! I read the guides but just couldn't stay ahead of the beast. In the end I decided to do a 'dry run' taking nothing but the bare essentials with me. Yes I died, but I didn't lose anything and I started to get to know the layout. I realised that my 'practice run' was actually an excellent method for achieving this quest. So I decided to go for it. For the first cave I took an axe, tinder box and Jennica's ring, I used a games necklace to the Wildy Volcano then deposited it in the bank there. So now I only had 3 items on me, no armour and no food. I cut the logs and lit one pyre at a time, so each time I died, I had one less to light. For the second cave I took a spade and Jennica's ring, and again deposited my games necklace in the Wildy bank. For those with lower agility they could use the extra space for an agility pot. Just make sure you get a Dark Core into the hole each time before you die. For the final cave I took Jennica's ring and a glory. One thing the Tip.It guides don't explain well is how to identify the grave that the correct spirit is in. You will see a single colour and shape jump from a grave to another, that is the one you should follow, then when the beast attacks with that colour, bless the grave that the colour is in. I found it much easier to follow one colour at a time. And don't forget to recharge your prayer at the altar in the last cave! I had to recharge after every grave I blessed. If you don't mind the running around (and there is a lot of it in this quest!), this method removed the frustration from the quest and was actually quite quick. It is certainly a method I will recommend to friends, and if you are superman you may not even die lol :thumbsup:

As the OP, I think it would be useful for me to respond to some of the issues you have raised as they reflect the arguments I have previously laid out. First I would challenge the assumption that the game will "inevitably" become easier because "that's what Jagex does". Some aspects will become smoother and easier to a degree because of advances in technology and programming, that is natural progression. I think to compare RS today with RS1 is ridiculous in light of advances, they are almost entirely different games with regard to graphics, interaction and interface. The debate is about game content, the way people play the game and manage their skill development. And this is the point, I wanted people to be honest in this debate about wanting it easier then I could challenge them on why. I disagree with this statement, one of the best updates Jagex did was the 'Smoking Kills' quest, which created variety and incentive for working on slayer and if you wanted a slayer helm you couldn't opt out of hard tasks or you lost all your points. This demonstrates that Jagex can do constructive and creative updates and with enough support from players, may continue to do this. I also would not want to get bogged down in the issue of updates alone. There is also the aspect of player choice that I argue with. Why do some people always go for the easiest method achieving 99 skills? (and continue to demand that these are even easier, I would suggest this may be the point of Jrhairychest's comment on the 99 cooking cape), and why do others play for pure enjoyment and in a way that suits their personality? I met someone the recently on RS who took 3 years to achieve their farming cape, they are so proud of that cape and they managed that 99 at no cost! Well good for them, I intend to do the same :thumbsup: The point here is that 'easier' is not inevitable for updates and players also have a choice.....how easy do you personally want it?

I really like this post....it reflects some of what I have been saying all along. I am happy for updates, some are really good like collecting slayer points and the relevant quests. For me it has always been about variety and challenge, I don't always do things the quickest or easiest way, I play the game in a way that suits me and gives me the greatest enjoyment. This includes sometimes multi-tasking across a number of skills and activities because of creating that variety. I do take offence at those who constantly flame Jagex because they want everything to be easier, usually for the purpose of obtaining a 99 as quickly as possible instead of stopping to actually enjoy the game, thats what has been lost for a number of players. I am concerned if Jagex continually give into these demands we will lose the characteristics of RS gameplay, skill capes will lose their impact/status and people will be demanding that Jagex 'entertain' them with instructions as to how to have 'fun'. The skill in RS is doing exactly as you have done....playing the game in a way that gives you the most enjoyment. :thumbsup:

I am in complete support of Langer's point above, and as Jrhairychest said...in what way do they "deserve" anything? Everything they already have is for free! But they did not contribute to Jagex as F2P, neither do you, it is only when they made the decision to become members (even if it was for a gameplay strategy) and then decided to stay there that they became contributing members of RS. People choose to become members for all kinds of reasons, staying as members was as you said.....they liked it there and presumably enjoyed the benefits. Its one of the reasons I think the suggestion made by Jrhairychest about a 'trial' is such an excellent idea. I certainly don't think that F2P should get anything more than they already have at no cost, if anything there is too much already that encourages players to stay in F2P, rather than move on to membership. More incentive is needed to encourage membership, rather than expanding on an already excellent free game.

But they're not paying any more. Where else would you still get a service after you've stopped paying for it? You don't. You're still not insured if you stop paying for it, You don't get electricity if you stop paying for it, Your car is repossessed if you stop paying for it etc. This is the real world. Jagex's first priority is to survive and that means money. Its a business not a charity. A weakend cape doesn't give an incentive to start playing again. Far from it. You're actually adding more of an incentive to stay in F2P by giving them something there. What use are players to a business in F2P? Nothing. Why would you give anything that would even remotely encourage someone not to go back to P2P? Instead of giving things to F2P, why not give a 1 week free trial to those in F2P for P2P? That could have the possibility of encouraging new players into P2P and might provide an incentive to ex-members to come back. Now that is an excellent idea! Probably one of the most constructive suggestions I've seen. I think many more F2P gamers would be inclined to take up full membership if they could trial the benefits and extended world for a week. I hope Jagex are reading this and take this as a serious suggestion. =D>

They mean the same thing if you make up your own definition. I went to Dictionary.com myself, and if you look at the entry: [hide] –adjective 1. not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort: a book that is easy to read; an easy victory. 2. free from pain, discomfort, worry, or care: He led an easy life. 3. providing or conducive to ease or comfort; comfortable: an easy stance; an easy relationship. 4. fond of or given to ease; easygoing: an easy disposition. 5. not harsh or strict; lenient: an easy master. 6. not burdensome or oppressive: easy terms on a loan. 7. not difficult to influence or overcome; compliant: an easy prey; an easy mark. 8. free from formality, constraint, or embarrassment: He has an easy manner. 9. effortlessly clear and fluent: an easy style of writing. 10. readily comprehended or mastered: an easy language to learn. 11. not tight or constricting: an easy fit. 12. not forced or hurried; moderate: an easy pace. 13. not steep; gradual: an easy flight of stairs. 14. Commerce. a. (of a commodity) not difficult to obtain; in plentiful supply and often weak in price. b. (of the market) not characterized by eager demand. 15. Nautical. a. (of a bilge) formed in a long curve so as to make a gradual transition between the bottom and sides of a vessel; slack. b. (of the run of a hull) having gently curved surfaces leading from the middle body to the stern; not abrupt. –adverb 16. Informal. in an easy manner; comfortably: to go easy; take it easy. –noun 17. a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter E. Origin: 1150–1200; ME aisie, esy < AF (a)eisie, OF aisié, aised, ptp. of aisier to ease Related forms: eas⋅y⋅like, adjective Synonyms: 2. tranquil, untroubled, comfortable, contented, quiet. 8. smooth, unconstrained. Antonyms: 1. difficult. 2. agitated. 3. uncomfortable.[/hide] ...You'll notice that nowhere is "fast" mentioned at all. Well, except in definition #12, where "easy" actually means "slow." Fifteen definitions, and none of them say "fast." (And 15, OMG SAILING!!!1!) Yes and that same dictionary states for "faster" Which is where I made the reference to 'easy': "1. moving or able to move, operate, function, or take effect quickly; quick; swift; rapid: a fast horse; a fast pain reliever; a fast thinker. 2. done in comparatively little time; taking a comparatively short time: a fast race; fast work. 3. (of time) a. indicating a time in advance of the correct time, as of a clock. b. noting or according to daylight-saving time. 4. adapted to, allowing, productive of, or imparting rapid movement: a hull with fast lines; one of the fastest pitchers in baseball. 5. characterized by unrestrained conduct or lack of moral conventions, esp. in sexual relations; wanton; loose: Some young people in that era were considered fast, if not downright promiscuous. 6. characterized by hectic activity: leading a fast life. 7. resistant: acid-fast. 8. firmly fixed in place; not easily moved; securely attached. 9. held or caught firmly, so as to be unable to escape or be extricated: an animal fast in a trap. 10. firmly tied, as a knot. 11. closed and made secure, as a door, gate, or shutter. 12. such as to hold securely: to lay fast hold on a thing. 13. firm in adherence; loyal; devoted: fast friends. 14. permanent, lasting, or unchangeable: a fast color; a hard and fast rule. 15. Informal. a. (of money, profits, etc.) made quickly or easily and sometimes deviously Or if you want we can sit here quoting the dictionary at each other all night!!!! The point is made, getting so pedantic over the minor interpretation of two words does not address the issue of this thread. :shame:

Absolutely love it, very stylish, but the font is very small....or appears very small. Any chance of increasing the size a little? At least back to what it was :)

Of course there is a difference! My example of farming was not in the guides, it was something I worked out using the guides for reference only. This is where the guides having been compiled from a number of peoples experiences, cannot cover everything. But someone giving advice first hand from direct experience can give that extra dimension. Its all about personal preference, and I'm certainly not arguing that, but talking to someone with direct experience and being able to ask the right questions and get the advice that suits you, provides a much more individualised platform to decide your own game strategy. The guides are just what they say they are....guides. And that is why it is so useful to discuss gameplay with an experienced player, or someone with the skills or experience in the area you are interested in. They will have that valid opinion and will usually not end up making you or themselves 'look like a fool' as you put it. Even if you disagree with their methods, at least you can debate it. But has absolutely no value if it is not an informed opinion, even an infomed opinion can just be parroting what is in the guides, unless it is founded in experience.

And the point of a debate is to challenge those opposing viewpoints :roll: Anyone can look up the definition of "easy" in the dictionary, but here you are, the dictionary definition: Easy: not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort and as for "faster" here is that definition: Faster: moving or able to move, operate, function, or take effect quickly...made quickly or easily. I think that makes my point nicely! The two are synonymous. See above I also hold an F2P account and my members account was F2P for quite a long time before I became a member, so give over with the hard done by act. Its still a free game to many people and enjoyed as such. And as the dictionary defines...easier and faster are interchangeable terms. As you said, this is your opinion, I think the thousands of ongoing players, both F2P and P2P who stay with Runescape would argue your sweeping statements. As I also said, I am and have been an F2P player (although my main account is member now) and there are still lots of ways to make the game interesting, but it does take some thought :shame: We come back to my earlier point about people wanting 'fun' thrown at them rather than actually thinking. Yes but that is the point...you don't debate it, all you do is run down Jagex, run down players, run down Runescape as a game or community, and constantly moan about how tedious or boring it all is. In the context of Runescape, skill is the term that Jagex have used to define the different areas of character development through levels. The skill in implementing that character development is in how you choose to play. I thought this was obvious. Of course there is no 'winning'! Otherwise Runescape would have an 'end', I never want it to end, it is a continous game. I have given you the dictionary definition now, which shows your interpretation to be incorrect, I used Dictionary.com, if you wish to check those definitions. You are also making sweeping statements again, those people may prefer playing a different way, as I appear to be repeatedly saying to you, its not about gunning for level 99 for everyone! As for your last point, if you are of an age to require permission to take out membership, then like many others, there should be gratitude from you, that games like Runescape do offer gameplay for free, just don't expect it to be the same as a members game. See my point below that Jrhairychest picked up: Hmmm....not sure about the smell bit, but maybe ;-)

Please note the discussions on "should F2P get skill capes", there are 54 pages of that discussion, which argues all of the pinciples raised here, so this is my previous post on that thread, talk about repeating yourself!!!!! That quote from Jr probably explains why skill capes are not F2P. It is a business decision and has nothing to do with F2P not deserving them from an effort point of view, they don't deserve them from a financial point of view. In a hypothetical world were F2P did have skill capes, how many do you think will say "I don't want to be a member cos I already have what I would have become a member for"? I'd say less than 1,000 but to make it easier lets say exactly 1,000 people don't become a member cos they have the cape, thats only £3,500 there missing out on ... they won't even notice that. That is an irrelevant point in the final analysis, after all. The F2P is exactly that, its a free game, those who use it (including myself at times) should be grateful for what they get. No one 'deserves' anything more than what they have, as what is offered is at no financial cost to gamers, nicely quoted here by Langer and Jrhairychest; That quote from Jr probably explains why skill capes are not F2P. It is a business decision and has nothing to do with F2P not deserving them from an effort point of view, they don't deserve them from a financial point of view. Completely ridiculous to make demands on a 'free sample' from a business out to make profit from memberships. The fact that Jagex have not made F2P time limited or limited the the levels in the skills you can do is a huge concession! Where is the gratitude for that?

I would appreciate a calmer approach to this debate, it is a debate not a 'rant', that is why I began this thread! :shame: An alternative method would, I assume, be just that. I return to my example of doing agility, the guides advise moving up to the harder courses as your skill level improves. I found for myself (with no advice) that I preferred to stay and do agility in Brimhaven (which I might add, is hardly mentioned in the RS manual). This was clearly an 'alternative' method, that did not fit with the advice of the guides. I now suggest this to others as a potentially more 'fun' way to train agility, especially with a friend or two. I now do my farming in an 'alternative' way, a lot of experienced players appear to spend mills buying high level tree seeds to plant. Using the guides, I have found a different (if slower) method of farming that suits me better, and have already passed on that advice successfully to someone who has found that method suits them too. Yet they may not have considered it without the discussion that took place about the method I had worked out. I have now done Barrows (finally), and was totally reliant on the personal experience of another player, I read the guides, but just could not get a clear idea of what I was up against so did not get around to it. I am glad I have done it now, and I will return, but it is thanks to the personal experience of another player. Ultimately it is about personal preference, but I do feel that I would want advice from a player with the experience rather than someone who did not play RS, or had only read the information. Direct me to the guides by all means, but not to say that it should be done this way.

I know that you have twice now tried to say that what you meant all along was you wanted skills to be faster....but that equates to 'easier' in this context, not sure what you mean by 'smoother'. Having said that, it is clear from your posts that you did mean easier, please see these excerpts.... Its not about things being the end of the world, I expect progress and updates, look at the new spells and a number of updates for higher levels. No problem with them as you have to work your way to that level before you can use them, and it adds incentive. It has always been about variety and not making things 'easier' or 'faster'. In case you missed the clear reference to 'easier' :rolleyes: I work full time and managed to achieve a 99, so am definitely not a 'no lifer' as you call us. I admire gamers who use their skills to make skill development interesting for themselves, it doesn't need to be as tedious as you portray. That only applies to those that are gunning for the fastest (and easiest) 99, just to get a cape, rather than enjoying the game for what it is. See the discussion thread on skill capes, notice that the firemaking and cooking capes etc, are often dismissed as having a 'low status' because they are the 'easiest' to get. And it appears they can't even use their common sense to make the game more interesting for themselves, see my point above. RS is only tedious if you play it that way. Yup....I'm getting the message, and you wonder why I question your interest in debating about RS? You cannot change the emphasis of what you have stated in this thread, it is very clear above. Also making reference to 'faster' in the context you are using amounts to 'easier' anyway. As I stated, it is down to the individual to play the game the way that suits them best, maybe some just cannot be bothered to think through a game strategy or how to create fun, like yourself. But need to have 'fun' thrown at them, so they don't have to think at all, even though there is a huge game to be creative in. :huh:

Lol...fair enough, the emphasis was misread by me :oops:

Swampjedi, please don't make assumptions unless you have informed youself fully of the circumstances, first I am a 'she' not 'he'. I never 'rant'. The debate with Quel was not intended as deriding, but is a discussion that we couldn't agree on that was way off topic. The topic is broader than our argument, therefore it seemed appropraite to open it up to others. And by the way, I left my childhood behind a very....very, long time ago! What I am dismissive of is uniformed, unanalysed opinions that are presented as facts when they are just assumptions based on biased opinion. Fair point and probably reflect mosts people's behaviour in real life. There is a point here that also addresses Langer's POV. When asking for an opinion or advice it is useful to gain theoretical knowledge, but until that is applied in practice it cannot be confirmed as being the best method for that individual. In this instance I think it is appropriate to compare to a RL example of working with someone who requires personal support, the definition in the UK, is that disabled person is an "expert by experience" and therefore is best placed to correctly advise the assistant in how best to support them. I know that may be an extreme example, but the principle is that the person with the direct experience has a deeper understanding of whatever the issues may be....and that is where it relates to gaming on RS. I am not dismissing useful advice from those who have read guides, we can all do that and I do regularly. But the real benefit are the tips from those with direct experience in the particular skill. It also those opinions that I am likely to give more weight to. It is then that I might decide what route or method I would like to try, or listen to more carefully in a debate as they are the ones who may change my POV. As for this.....It would appear to me that Jrhairychest is blunt, to the point and has strong opinions, but ultimately he cuts through all the rubbish and 'fluff' to get to the heart of the matter and makes for an intelligent and excellent debate.

That quote from Jr probably explains why skill capes are not F2P. It is a business decision and has nothing to do with F2P not deserving them from an effort point of view, they don't deserve them from a financial point of view. In a hypothetical world were F2P did have skill capes, how many do you think will say "I don't want to be a member cos I already have what I would have become a member for"? I'd say less than 1,000 but to make it easier lets say exactly 1,000 people don't become a member cos they have the cape, thats only £3,500 there missing out on ... they won't even notice that. That is an irrelevant point in the final analysis, after all. The F2P is exactly that, its a free game, those who use it (including myself at times) should be grateful for what they get. No one 'deserves' anything more than what they have, as what is offered is at no financial cost to gamers, nicely quoted here by Langer and Jrhairychest; That quote from Jr probably explains why skill capes are not F2P. It is a business decision and has nothing to do with F2P not deserving them from an effort point of view, they don't deserve them from a financial point of view. Completely ridiculous to make demands on a 'free sample' from a business out to make profit from memberships. The fact that Jagex have not made F2P time limited or limited the the levels in the skills you can do is a huge concession! Where is the gratitude for that?

I don't get this......in what way is F2P players wanting skill capes contribution more than those wanting bandos etc? And I think that's the whole point, others wish for better armour in F2P, (it's been said in this thread), some want skill capes, you can't please everyone and the line has to be drawn between membership benefits and a great game that others get totally free.

I forgot about the wilderness ditch! Good point, there was a number of times I nearly made a mess of going to far north...lol, especially when the Wildy was PvP, in fact I did get killed a couple of times then. There are some updates that I like, particularly when they allow for more variety, like the smoking kills quest, I really like the variety now included in doing Slayer, and for the benefit of troacctid.....that update gave that all important variety rather than making things generally and unecessarily easier, as in the points that meili made, or the examples given earlier in this thread. I don't have a problem with games learning from each other, but comparing the way in which the game is updated and managed is difficult, if not impossible to compare between these 2 particular games, they also have enirely different objectives, as well as the actual gameplay.