xpx

Firstly, you should learn what rushing is. Most rushes are done with 5:5 setting. Secondly yeah, quite old news. By the way, is 5:1 even possible? I've always thought 5:3 was the minimum you can go for.

I have been forced to to a load(well, not really a load, but quite a few none the less) of quests for 3 times now, for rfd(175 qp), wgs(275 qp) and temple of sennisten(even though i had 276 qp i needed 4 quests for this...). I never do quests if the rewards aren't worth the time to do them, and since there are way too many of them(i used to have max qp in rsc) and new, useless ones released every week this seems to be the way to go for me.

Well, in a sense you probably are being coerced to train it via TOG. And unless matters have changed, you don't get tokens for that - just empty, worthless XP. If Jagex intends to keep pretending this is a skill, then they need to amend that situation and (if possible) retroactively fix past TOG/Dung rewards. The other diversions that give XP (like penguins) I don't feel so strongly about. People choose those. But with TOG, we have no choice - it's the low skill or nothing. And week after week, the imbalance between XP & tokens grows larger. Is there supposed to be a balance between tokens and xp? I mean, this skill will have(do remember, this skill is only half way released to date) rewards other than the ones sold in shops, so i don't see why every xp you get should also recieve tokens- tokens are the reward for training dungeoneeing in deamonheim.

I have been kicked out of f28 large because i could'nt get to the boss room fast enough after it was killed...missed by around 8 seconds, and the team only found the boss 5 minutes before update. The funny thing is, the update happent 2 minutes after we all got kicked out. As a consolation of the completed but non-win-teferanced dungeon, we all got 11k xp each.

Interesting figures but i don't know how accurate they can be with a minimal test set. On average, 2:1 should take the same time as 2 solo dungeons, around 17-19 minutes and 4:2(need 4 people to do large) should take about 4 times that, 35-38 minutes, which is already close to the 35-45 minutes the best teams are completing 5:5 dungeons. Also, while solo dungeons take me anywhere from 7-10 minutes to complete, 5:5 small dungeons take exactly the same time and offer around 40% boost(8k prestige vs 6k and +19% on reward screen), though in 5:3 you can manage 5-7 minute dungeons with the same xp as solo. All in all, as a team player, it propably makes most sense to do 5:3 on lowest, 5:5 on average and 5:5 large on the higest floors, but which floors exactly, i have no idea(and doing 25-29 large is a pain to find a team). If you have a great team, any of these 3 choices trough all floors would give you more than 50k xp an hour, but large dungeons seem dominating because of not chaninging floors every 10 minutes. Also i do believe that with a 5:3 or 5:5 setting it is possible to do medium dungeons for the same xp as the others, but the fact is, most people aren't really used to those types of dungeons(also the dungeon is shapd badly compared to the others).

I've never said there are any uber secrets to my soloing, just that there are tricks you learn during dungeoneering(like walking in a ferret room) that help you get a bit better xp, and that they add up to make a 5-15% differance. I've actually mentioned alot about the method, but since you people can't read any of the posts(like alex didn't understand that i said C6 soloing 2 days ago), it's easy to say i have mentioned no details. Also, i did not use a prom spear during those trials, but i'm not sure how much that changed my hourly experiance. As for trying soloing out yourself, do remember that it takes keen experiance to perfect the experiance and you can't get the same xp i'm getting if you havn't solod atleast around 50 to 200k experiance. The very first thing you need to do is to learn how to do fast, consistent dungeons, and go from there to maximise the experiance you get from those dungeons.

I'm very good at doing puzzles(usually do the rc floor in the fight fashion) and skip the floors i don't have the levels to complete(100+ doors for you). But i guess these are quite what everyone expect from an efficent solo. As i mentioned, with 35 prestige the average xp i got is around 4.4k, 35 prestige i think is 6069.

I am completely justified doubting your figures because you have not provided me with a way to try your method. That's the entire issue. We aren't saying that you're untrustworthy, or a liar, or anything like that. But your rates themselves are unreliable because we have no proof otherwise, which you and you alone can rectify. Qeltar has a guide describing how he got his experience rates; where's your proof? And if you would tell us your secret, then perhaps we could find a way to improve on it, whether through trial and error or otherwise. At the very start of Dungeoneering, the community believed that Smalls were the way to go. At that point, we weren't really certain about how the experience worked, so we just assumed that doing Smalls would be faster. Eventually, some higher level dungeoneers realized that Larges were in fact very good for teams, and shared it with the rest of us. In exchange, the rest of the community with a bit of trial and error improved the methods of going through the Large dungeons and developed more and more optimal ways of experience (not killing every monster was one of these). Through sheer numbers, the Large dungeoneering method was improved through the community, because the select few who discovered it decided to share the method. Now in your case, if your method relied on, say doing Complex 1 for the beginning floors, then switching back to Complex 6 for the later floors, then perhaps we could figure out the optimal floor to stop doing Complex 1 and start doing Complex 6, or how to do Complex 1 more effiecently, and so on. That's the entire point of a discussion board and community; to discuss, to improve, and not with merely yourself. In this case, you gain everything from telling your secret. This was posted by me 2 days ago and is the backbone of what my soloing method includes....and well..it's pretty straightforward in what you described. The only things i'm not disclosing are the armor, weapons or what i kill in the dungeon, but that's pretty straightforward for everyone. It's c6 dungons anyway, as i've mentioned before, i never do anything below c6. There is a bit more information on the trial i did to time the xp, but i guess you'd not be bothered to look it up or read it anyway. Also, all in all, i just don't understand why i'd be called a lier with achieving 30k an hour while soloing, it's only 20% off from the figures posted by qeltar(and we have no idea how experianced that guy is in soloing) and neraly 2x less xp than what the best dungeoneers are getting, why would i lie and make the figures reasnoble, or even downright pointless? The reason? the people who post don't solo in dungeoneering, and the fact that i'm using my leagal right to withhold information in order to get them to try it out and perhaps improve on it just infuriates them. I never said what exactly i'm keeping in secret and those two things you mentioned would count as ''secrets''. I've also mentioned that they help me get around 2-4k experiance more an hour, but i doubt anyone bothered to read that aswell.

Well it still doesn't justify doubting the figures IF YOU HAVE NEVER TRIED it yourself. As far as i'm concerned, the fact that people put a blindfold on and say everything i see is make belief is not an argument. I have no intrest in coaching people how to dungeoneer, rather i'm interested if there are better methods i can implement myself, and if people dungeoneer just the way i do then what's the point of disclosing it at all?

When the entire validity of your argument rests on having conclusive and repeatable trails of your claims, and not the hearsay you've so far provided, I think it would be prudent to give us the information required so we can verify your rates and move on with this discussion, which has gotten considerably off track. If we can't verify your claims, then we have to assume that your results are unreliable and that you're possibly lieing to us. As i already said, my times doing dungeons aren't anything spectacular compared to the others, so the experiance i'm getting is atleast to a high degree normal. Also, there are only so many things you can do differantly in a dungeon- maybe i use a differant weapon, maybe i use many weapons or kill monsters in a differant fashion, but the bottom line is, those things work for me, and there is no guarantee that i'm doing anything in the most efficent fashion or that anyone else isn't getting even better xp out of soloing, it's just a question of trial and error right now. Still hearsay. I'm not calling you a liar, but until you provide actual, testable, and repeatable evidence, then we have to assume you're an unreliable source, regardless of whatever other sources you claim to be reliable. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. And more irrelvant facts! Assuming you use Qeltar's "Snake-Eyed Method" (which you did not invent, by the way. At best, you get the name.) and averaged 4 minutes a floor, then do Floor 35, gaining 50k experience in an hour, you get 16.4k an hour. Interesting, right? Alex, i've yet to see anyone actually do any extencive testing on solo anyway, with everyone claiming the xp being so bad. As noone has tested it and i'm the only one providing any figures on experiance at all, why would i want to tell anyone what to do? It'd be in my best intrest if someone else did some testing on the xp aswell, but in the absense of trust and trying something instead of just spitting words out of your mouth, I can rest assured that soloing still is a viable option if i ever get frustrated teaming(atleast for me it is, because i know the word average).

When the entire validity of your argument rests on having conclusive and repeatable trails of your claims, and not the hearsay you've so far provided, I think it would be prudent to give us the information required so we can verify your rates and move on with this discussion, which has gotten considerably off track. If we can't verify your claims, then we have to assume that your results are unreliable and that you're possibly lieing to us. As i already said, my times doing dungeons aren't anything spectacular compared to the others, so the experiance i'm getting is atleast to a high degree normal. Also, there are only so many things you can do differantly in a dungeon- maybe i use a differant weapon, maybe i use many weapons or kill monsters in a differant fashion, but the bottom line is, those things work for me, and there is no guarantee that i'm doing anything in the most efficent fashion or that anyone else isn't getting even better xp out of soloing, it's just a question of trial and error right now.

Okay, when you say "30k an hour pure soloing" what exactly do you mean? Doing all 35 floors the same way? Doing some in different ways? What complexity level and bound items? Also, what strategy are you using? Meaning: kill every monster, kill all monsters except dead ends, kill only monsters in guardian rooms, etc? tortilliachp: This is a discussion board. There's not much to discuss about what Jagex has said about this, which is virtually nothing. The figures are timed by myself doing almost all differant floors(34 differant floors) in 2 patches alone, 2 items bound, C6. I can't reveal all my secrets that concern dungeon efficency and getting a nice level mod even though rushing, you'll just have to learn for yourself, i'm almost certain that there are people who can solo even faster than i can. As far as i can tell, you have quite a bit still to learn about soloing and how to do it fast. "I can't reveal all my secrets". That's pretty arrogant :( I'm not a walking guide, if you want to learn something, go to school. You can call me a liar how many times you want, but when i say i can do dungeons in an average time of 8 minutes 50 seconds and others have reported times anywhere from 8 to 10 minutes(people who know what they are doing, that is) there is hardly anything to lie about, unlesss i paid the other guys, ofcource. Also, yes, i have learned som methods to maximize soloing xp, while not giving a significant xp boost, the extra 2-4k an hour can make all the differance. You'll just have to solo yourself and get to know what's best for you. Not everything has to be delivered on a silver platter.

But still the fact remains, should the best guy on the team get less experiance? and if so, what's the point of putting your neck on the line, when there are always people never prepared to do so, and the most demanding reason to do so is because of the severe death penalty, even if you die once. Also, it's not always the fact that you do die more or that people don't support you, it's the fact that the likelyhood of dieing for those people is times greater than it is for the others, and there is nothing to compensate for it. With a one death allowance, again, these problems would wanish.

:thumbup: Good idea. The death penalty now is indeed ridiculous, you are punished for being a team player... quite the contrary, you get punished for not acting as a team. if you move around and act as a team (the most effective strategy on larger dungeons) you will not die. then you are always 5 to fight everything in each room, which doesn't pose much of a difficulty as you pile the most dangerous targets etc. you share food, you move around safely and effectively. It's fine as it is now. you can gatestone at any time. if you d/c, there's nothing a game developer can do to save you. i know it sucks, but that's life. if you don't get penalized for d/cing, ending process on the game application becomes an effective strategy in a ton of situations (red-xing, as it used to be called in the pking world). If you change the death system, you penalize those who work as a team, and you remove major parts of the strategy of the game: how to avoid death through the use of food, Armour, running, hugging, not entering a room when not prepared etc. The attitudes in this topic sound awfully like frustration that you die, and envy that others avoid death through making their teams good team, instead of nonfunctional teams. It all starts with organizing your team once you enter a dungeon; being a leader of the team. You are joking, right? because if you aren't, you propably know nothing about dungeoneering. Let me give you a small clue here- a good team is when everyone does their job and does it well. You just assume(and it is true with rubbish teams) that everyone fights monsters. More often than not, when doing dungeons with any efficency there are people who specialize on other things than just dull killing, since anyone can do that. In a proper rush there are 2 people specially prepared to either open key doors or open skill doors, and more often than not, those people risk their safety for the sake of others and are much more likely to die. More often than not, people die because of unfortuanate accidents, like failing a skill door twice in a row or getting comboed in a monolith room, or even comboed while rushing, and those deaths have nothing to do with teamwork but being the most useful you could be for the team. This is all why i think allowing one death(atleast on 5:5 large dungeons) is a just thing to do- there are always people doing more for the team and there is no reason to punish them for doing so. It's either that or just divide the death penalty between all the party members.

Even with one player sabotaging the team, the experience rates are far greater than what you would be able to solo. The only exception is when a lever puzzle or emote room is IN THE BOSS'S PATH, which would be even rarer halfway through the dungeon (if at the start you could simply reset without losing time), and these circumstances only slightly cut into the humongous exp difference. It would be silly for me to argue more over experience rates except to once again point out that teaming is much faster experience even if done inefficiently. Feel free to train however you want, but be aware that it is always worth it to form some sort of team for at least floors 30-35. It's not always about the experiance you get but the gaming experiance you feel while going trough the dungeons- most people playing this game like and assume skills are to be leveled alone in an efficient fashion, and when there are people purposely trying to be jerks for the sake of being a jerk while trying to gain good experiance, it really doesn't help. I agree that the team experiance is much better, but the fact that you have to put up with so much **** makes it barely worth it. Also, muggi, do you know that there are lists of high leveled people who suck at dungeoneering so as to not take them into your team? I havn't personally seen your name on any of the lists but just as a reminder, what goes around comes around, and with a reputation like that there is no wonder you aren't accepted into some of the teams. Also, the 2 levels makes no differance, but because combat is more than easy to train nowadays, it guarantees that the player even bothers with any efficency at all.

I think deaths should have a smaller impact on the overall experiance, or you should be allowed to die once with no penalty and then propose a harsh xp penalty(25%) after the first death. The reson i say that is that usually deaths happen because of lagging at unfortuanate places or because of the player trying to do everything to help the team. At the moment, alot of players semi leech in a way that they never enter guardian rooms before atleast 2 other people are inside- making them less likely to die. Add to that thet all they do is fight or hoard food into their familiar(who really needs 2 packs of food?), the penalty severely compromises team playing at this moment. On the other side of the table, it's actually another point why soloing is'nt as terrible as teaming, because dieing only gives 400 xp penalty compared to the 6k xp you lose on large dungeons.

Okay, when you say "30k an hour pure soloing" what exactly do you mean? Doing all 35 floors the same way? Doing some in different ways? What complexity level and bound items? Also, what strategy are you using? Meaning: kill every monster, kill all monsters except dead ends, kill only monsters in guardian rooms, etc? tortilliachp: This is a discussion board. There's not much to discuss about what Jagex has said about this, which is virtually nothing. The figures are timed by myself doing almost all differant floors(34 differant floors) in 2 patches alone, 2 items bound, C6. I can't reveal all my secrets that concern dungeon efficency and getting a nice level mod even though rushing, you'll just have to learn for yourself, i'm almost certain that there are people who can solo even faster than i can. As far as i can tell, you have quite a bit still to learn about soloing and how to do it fast.

This is exactly why i say that there is a balance between solo and team playing.

There is no written rule about how a skill should best be trained, and jagex obviously wanted this skill to be best trained in a team, and as we can see from the complaints, they succeeded in doing so. It's not solo or gtfo, it's team, solo or gtfo, you make your choice. If solo xp was was increased by a 150% multiplier the xp differance at the top end would get nearer to 5k an hour meaning that it'd be stupid to even consider teaming, thus killing the design of the skill. I'm genuinly baffled by the critisism to the teamingly concentration of the skill, after all it's just one skill and is very interesting for me to train a skill in this way. Atleast they are doing something to get all you loners off afking at a tangling vine to work together for the sake of better efficency. There has been no mention of this and more than likely, this is not the case. "Significant" but not "dramatic". I can't even begin to guess as to what that means. :) I've already mentioned enough figures that i have myself tested. 30k an hour pure soloing, 40k an hour soloing 1-29, large dungeons 30-35, 35k an hour on an average team(5:5 small 1-24, 5:5 large 25-35), 50-55k an hour on a very good team(1-11 5:3 12-27 5:5 small 28-35 5:5 large, same team trourought the floors).

What do you actually do with the higher prestige when you are 120 already? The anyone with half a brain statement implies that if you are more than 71 dungeoneering now, you've wasted atleast some of your time to, as i said, get ahead. Practically what you are implying is that soloing should give more xp in a skill meant not to be soloed, but doing so would destroy the skill as it is. Do you really not think that there is a balance between the hassle with teaming and the lower xp while soloing? The differance is significant, as i've said, but for the average player, it's not dramatic. All that i've implied on this thread is that the balance jagex no doubt mastered before the release is very well thought out. I've enjoyed the skill mostly because i can interact with other, strange people in a way unlike any other skill, if you don't like that aspect of it, you have the viable option of soloing or the unfathomable option of not training the skill.

As I've already said at least twice, I am not talking about teaming all of the floors. I am talking about floors from 25 or 30 to 35, as the ones where it is a no-brainer to do teams. The overhead involved in getting these floors done in teams is very low relative to the time spent on them. And even with the occasional 90 minute floor (which is not typical) you *still* get a *lot* more XP than soloing. 25k XP/hr is pretty much the maximum practical solo XP over time, and that's pretty pathetic. In fact, it makes this close to the slowest skill in the game. Given the level 120 limit with 104 million XP, people have a valid complaint. This will hopefully get better with batch 2, but there's no denying that right now, it's pretty darned slow. No offense, but I find these numbers quite dubious. 6 high-numbered dungeons per hour solo on complexity 6 is pushing the bounds of believability, and 8 such dungeons per hour is well beyond it. I just now did floors 27 and 28 solo, and one took 15 minutes and the other 12 minutes. Even with a lot of luck, a 7.5 minute *average* for solo complexity 6 dungeons is IMO not credible. Even if your numbers were true, though, they still aren't impressive in terms of an overall rate. If you're getting 4400 XP that's only 30K or so on the deeper floors, and you're going to get less on the low-numbered floors. At best you are going to average out at 25k XP per hour or so. People who do teams can easily get 60%, 75% or even greater XP premiums, even taking into account overhead and other hassles. That's a major difference, IMO. Ever heard of decimals? the number is 6,8 not 6 or 8, and yes, i did dungeons 1-14, then 16-35(had 15 done already) solo, p2p in 5 hours 1 minute, good for around 30k experiance an hour, and could have got more getting the top 5 floors done in 5:5 teams. All you do is talk and show absolutely no figures from which i understand that you just havn't thouroughly tested the experiance in teams, and 90% of the people i have seen posting figures about teaming only take into accound the time from the start of the dungeon to the time you kill the boss, and this over a maximum of 2 dungeons. In reality, it takes 10 minutes on average to find a team and none of these people account for the failiures. I know it's hard to fathom the effects of this while trying to time yourself dungeoneering, and people always try to show the best figures they can, but everyone with a little sence can see that teaming is much more of a hassle, and if you are only getting 10k xp an hour more(50k vs 40k) than you would do when you would solo 1-29 and do 30-35 in teams then you have to conclude, upon increasing solo xp the skill game would simply die. I have no idea at all why you would compare the xp now to the maximum level of 120. we only have 60% of the skill, and the solo xp is bound to get above 100k an hour with b2. Everyone(well, everyone with half a brain) know getting 120 now is beyond stupid, and the only reason to do so is to get ahead and try to be first. As you can read from the 200m xp in all skills thread, none of the top players are even beyond 74 dungeoneering.

I do believe and know that teams are better experiance, but not so overwhelmingly as most would say. On average, people who calculate how much xp they get an hour start the clock with the dungeon starting, and usually don't take into account the floors that they have failed or the floors that have taken 90 minutes(5:5 large). They don't take into account having to search for around 13 different teams trough 35 floors or that they can get very flustrated doing so. I don't deny 50k an hour xp is possible trough all floors, but that means 5 people living the same lives for 6 hours, which is rare to say the least. If people accurately described the experiance teaming, taking to accound all the drawbacks, 30k an hour experiance would be about the aveage, which is only a bit more than i can manage with soloing, saving myself all the trouble of human communication(the thing most seem to hate about dungeoneering, and to be clear, i don't). The skill as we all know was never meant to be soloed, and implying, while taking all the beforementioned information into account, that soloing experiance should be increased is just childish. It's already good enough, in my opinion, that you are at all able to solo, and the fact that the experiance isn't at all terrible(well, it is terrible if you are really poor at it, as most people seem to be), it really is good enough as it is.(for the information of fact, i have timed myself to do 6,8 dungeons an hour with all doors opened, average -4 level mod and around 4,4k experiance per dungeon trough all floors, if you can't achieve atleast this then your propably doing something wrong)

Why even have differant rewards then? would just make yourself be able to morph between the chaotic items. And yes, i think it's a poor idea- the rewards are the one single thing that makes people want to get high dungeoneering atm, and the fact thet they are relativly hard to get makes it all worth it. We all know the stats of the items, you just have to make a choice between them. I even think the recharge cost is very balanced, do you scrifice 4-5 hours worth of tokens or pay 1.8m more, it's your choice.

EDIT: Disregard that, I see what you're challenging. But why do we assume that the solo player will have maximum effiency, and yet the teams will always have a crtical flaw? If we assume a team is nearly perfect, they can actually get upwards of 60-65k an hour (a team can complete a large in 40 minutes with about 42-45k a high dungeon). When we take flawed teams into that number, the gap widens. Saying that dungeoneering is 65k a hour is similar to saying that summoning is 2m xp an hour, true, but flawed by logic. Teams are hampered by this inevitable loss of efficency bcause of what it is- a team. Not everyone are the Boston Celtics or the Los Angeles Lakers, there are always those New Jersy Nets lurking around... However good LeBron is, he can't do it all alone. However, when you are out for yourself, you can write your own destiny, and thus there are no hampering effects on your experiance other than yourself.

Please, do not post subjective misinformed information as facts... runecrafting is one of the newer skills of runescape and was released a little more then 6 years ago. I'm sure there are others misfireing in there but i couldn't have been bothered to read it that thoroughly. What concerns soul runecrafting....why? Why is it important? there is nothing really missing from the runecrafting skill than an unused novelty altar seen once in a lifetime during a miserable quest? what ever quest it is released with, it's bound to have low requirements and be easy, and not have any good rewards. I meant one of the oldest RS2 skills (in fact THE oldest), and I was going by the beta (2003). You are correct in saying it's "little more than 6 years", it's about 6 and a half I think. I usually don't count months and tend to round quite overzealously (7 = 10). So it's not a misprint, just me rounding too much. :) I guess I'll change it. And it's important because it's something that is guaranteed to be released but has gone so for many years. Just a pet peeve of mine, and I think it's fun to speculate about what will happen in the future. Many others also enjoy speculation. If you think soul runecrafting is useless, you won't hear any disagreement from me; I just think it's interesting and I always like things to be complete, regardless of how novelty they may be. I'm sorry for being so blunt about it, but as many people know, people do judge a book by it's cover, and the first statement in an article very commonly decides if you are or not going to read it, and as it was, it just wasn't right. rs2 realease was 29. march 2004, so it's as near as makes no differance 6 years 2 months from today. The 10 year statement is poor because even runescape itself isn't that old, and rc was the 19th(or even alot later if you count the failed skills) skill to be released.