Fey_Warrior

Hi Qeltar, Just posting to let you know that I've read it. I will have to see if I can find some time later in the week to return and give my feedback as you've requested. Glad to see you are doing your best to promote honest and fair conduct in the game though. I think that goal is something we have in common. Regards, Fey

I still do feel sad and regret for all those who've lost a big part of their game-play. Contrary to all the spam and flame we saw on the ORSF, I don't believe most good PKers were involved in that. They had a right to be upset. However, their cause was only damaged by all those who thought being reactionary was the solution; as it turns out it simply ensured no feedback was given during the storm, and few if any of the actual flaws (that I do feel are there) have received the attention required to identify and possibly get fixes for them. The result has been that a lot of good feedback about problems was lost amid the spam & flame. At the same time I do realise that for a number of reasons there updates were necessary, in order to combat some serious threats to the game's long term survival. Large scale fraud/hacking/identity theft by RWTers and the clear and substantial trend that bots were indeed increasing at such a rate that their numbers could seriously damage the game for the majority of players and threaten the viability of RuneScape itself. This meant something serious needed to be done. As Jagex stated in it's Development Diaries, "RuneScape vs. Real-world Trading" it had already taken on board nearly all suggestions that were possible to be implemented, including recruiting all the Player & Forum Mods in bot-busting teams. These teams would go in game several times a week and actively identify and report large numbers of bots. It was largely after these organised raids, that players saw the temporary reductions during the last year at various spots in Members' worlds. It was clear to both Jagex and it's volunteer moderator teams though that despite continual upgrades to it's automated detection & removal systems, and large-scale manual removal patrols, they were merely holding back an oncoming tide. RWTers operated with low or near zero operating costs; that needed to change. While as some have pointed out illegal exchanges might be possible, these updates basically made it unprofitable for those whose methods depended upon large numbers of disposable accounts. Thankfully it seems they won't be returning to the game. I personally do miss the old features, and am saddened to hear the anger and frustration expressed by quite a number of fellow players at these changes. However, I also do see it was these changes now or else likely within a year we'd be faced with a game that was seriously red-lining servers, with most staff being diverted to combating these issues, no updates, and ongoing and massive fraud resulting in fewer and fewer payment methods. The recipe was there for immanent disaster. Faced with that choice, I realise, though unhappy with these changes, we still at least have a game to play, even if parts of it have forever changed and become virtually unrecognisable. Hopefully after these changes are made, and feedback can once again be given, players can advocate for reasonable changes while not allowing mass RWT back into the game. For that reason it's high time players now take control of the discussions, especially those who wish to suggest reasonable changes and improvements. I do agree Jagex will need to give in some areas, in terms the privilege of trading/staking and engaging in more varieties risky PvP (in possible new Members' only features), which will hopefully give back some of things that were taken by these updates. Regards, Fey.

There is nothing good about bots. Even if there was a price drop due to bots, the cost has to be paid later by: * Loss of friends (who quite because bots undermined their game-play) * Server performance: bots make no money for the game (even free-world bots probably use ad-blocking) and only use server resources, meaning less funding available for updates and server upgrades. * When a resource (or an entire game) no longer makes money they simply dump it, leaving no players to further gather it - which creates further problems when players began abandoning whole parts of the game. So if anything they cause long-term instability by undermining player based game-play in any MMO they enter. Bots were used extensively by RWT to rip-out resources as quickly as possible from the game. RWTs are clearly identified by Internet Security Companies like Symantec as high sites for trojans, key-loggers, and viruses. Additionally such sites are a know risk for credit card theft and identity fraud. Although I personally am saddened by any loss of game-play due to areas being exploited by RWT, nothing good can come from allowing massive RWT to continue to undermine our game. Regards, Fey.

An amusing but rewarding read. As another poster commented, some more examples of avatar art would've been good, but there's something to be said for keeping it short ;) Regards, Fey.

Hi Dark_Aura, *Gulp* I'm beginning to see that these monsters were created for fighting players with all the abilities and resources of Members. It does seem unfair that F2P players are being faced with the same level of danger as Members, but they must do so without any of the means necessary to fight a fair fight, or get any decent rewards for braving such danger. Regards, Fey.

Agreed. Their current drops aren't worth the trouble or the risk. Another player who had a Rune Crossbow helped me team an Ork at Level 53 Wildy (Agility Arena). I only had Studded Leather and Mithril Crossbow, however we managed to kill it. I still ate through nearly a whole inventory of cakes. If one sees teams of 2 to 3 of these ghosts though and one is low on health/food/supplies, it's best to run. If you see a team of 4 or more of mixed warriors/mages/rangers even if you're a High Level, they're going to teleblock you and hunt you down. Here was me thinking the Brimhaven Agility Arena was cruel. Now we have a monster whose sole purpose is to make anyone entering High Levels of the *new* Wildy, either run or regret it. While I'm not sure they should nerf them at all (this place is meant to be risky after all) they need decent rewards that makes taking them on worth the risk of dying. Regards, Fey.

I believe personally this will be a big focus for updates for the next 6 to 12 months for a number of reasons: 1) Jagex has stated that they do not see the updates as perfect or as any full replacement for what has been removed. 2) All the PvP updates have been for F2P and P2P; meaning there's no currently no incentive for those who mainly played for in the P2P Wilderness to remain Members (they presently get the same features in F2P). 3) To entice the Member's who've left they'll need to add a lot of new content to replace all the PvP game-play lost with the removal of PKing in the Wilderness. 4) Jagex has stated there will be at least a risky (dangerous with Item Loss) 1v1 PvP update being added back to the game that isn't covered by current updates. 5) Jagex have indicated further unspecified PvP updates will likely be made. I suspect it's highly unlikely they'll be adding any PvP areas that will also involve skilling. This would due in part to all the problems and unpopularity of such areas in the past; as well as the fact that skilling in PvP environments would likely be loophole to be exploited by RWTers. So the features to be added will be for PvPers only, and likely PvPers who've gained ranking in PvP mini-games (or Clan Wars if they add a Hi-Scores system for Clan Chats) as well as those who are proven players in other game-play (Kudos/Quest Points/Total Skill Levels/Duel Tournament Ranking/Barbarian Assault) which will be similar in the way that the proposed increase in Trading/Staking Cap will be based on Quest Points. Using all the measures for genuine players, this will hopefully allow new risky PvP areas that only genuine players can use. It will mean: * No more non-combat skilling in PvP environments * No easily accessible PvP environment to new players. * No more newcomers being PKed. This will ensure cheap (untrained) accounts aren't being used in PvP *only* environments. They will be areas for High Levelled players to go into combat and take great risks with expensive items (with further restrictions on use of Protect Item Prayer). Hopefully these areas will also see improvements to the current combat system, and measures to ensure at least reasonable ranges of combat levels for combat between players, to ensure a reasonable chance of decently matched battles. It's unlikely I feel that the old incremental Wilderness Level system will be returning though. For all these reasons, now is the time for any player who still is a member, who wants to have a say in what 'new' features get added to the game to post their suggestions for new risky PvP *only* features on the ORSF now. If players wait 6 months to post what they think should be added, those features are already likely to be added or be nearly completed; so don't miss having your say. Regards, Fey.

Please. they all suck. Only one thing keeps me from quitting. Clan wars I think Clan Wars needs a lot of improvement. One idea worth sharing is the concept of Clan Wars Hi-Scores. It's actually seems the next logical step I feel for improvements, though the scoring system could be hard to figure, the basic concept itself is simple & likely to be easy to implement: * Clan Chat/Channel that wins gains Clan War Hi-Score points & ranking. * Name shown on Hi-Scores is the name of that Clan Chat/Channel. A multitude of features, rewards and other things could then be gauged from those Hi-Scores, including access to fighting in larger bettered features Members only Clan War areas which clans have dreamed of for many years. Making it a Members only feature is a good way to entice Jagex into developing something on an epic scale. I won't name what I've called my suggestion here though. If Clan PKers feel they've lost large features I feel the time is right to ask for some very big things given Jagex admitted themselves that: * Website News -> 13 December 2007 - A Word About Our Updates So those of us who feel they're far from perfect yet (I count myself as one of them) should take the next 6 weeks to dream up the best possible improvements. We could fix not only the flaws in what have only been Free-Player updates (including Wilderness Capes), but also make our most elaborate suggestions (from our wildest dreams) for massive new Members' PvPer and Clan features. As there is unlikely to be any skilling features conflicting with use PvPers can concentrate on suggesting the new types game-play that will makes PvP more fun and a worthwhile part of RuneScape again. Though this is a sad moment for all who loved the Wildy; with all it's good an bad points; a good tactical advance is now needed to claim the features owing on this debt. Good luck with your ideas if you wish to stay with us.

I have to disagree with your last statement Sir\Ma'am. Other MMORPGs don't have to deal with this problem as much because, they aren't browser based. They don't have as big of a problem, because it is harder for "script kiddies" and "gold farming\item farming" companies to code auto bots for those games. And another thing, I don't think that the other MMORPGs are willing to slap their customers in the face because of some cheaters. But then again, I may be wrong. Looks at Vista and the killswitch. Who knows. I'd have to disagree here. A certain popular 'disk' based game is actually the most targeted for RWT and is currently undergoing a tumultuous time. A lot of the software used to play those games is actually pirated/hacked/stolen software IDs. Those games actually have as many difficulities detecting it and some players (probably the RWTers) are unhappy and threatening those companies due to extra software packages installed silently with the game updates/downloads in order to stop tampering. Players who think it's just RuneScape facing these problems will be sorely disappointed I'm afraid as tipping points in other MMOs occur, and developers are faced with making drastic changes or being overwhelmed by those who seek to exploit these games for illegal RWT/RMT. Else the mounting illegal trade will lead to external pressures forcing change upon these other game developers, as credit card companies and other billing agencies attempt to squeeze our online fraud from their transaction bases. Then governments, with various arms of Taxation, Customs and Law Enforcement will also be progressively coming down harder on developers who don't deal with these serious issues facing any 'virtual world' that allows any form of trading or interaction between players online. Players who close their eyes to Internet crime will only face another rude awakening as these changes sweep through the MMO industry, and game developers respond by attempting to combat the incursions of these illegal traders and their negative impacts on both game worlds, and the people that play within them. Jagex is the one taking the first steps though to truly fight these problems, so it seems they are willing to take the chance, given others will likely have to follow anyway. Regards, Fey.

Hi Lady_Shahdie, I do offer my sincere thanks for expressing a view that has sadly been trodden afoot in the days since our games transmogrification from what it was to what we have merely few days later. In the days since these updates that have indeed turned parts of the game upside-down (and removed whole sections of game-play), the community has been riven further by these disputes and sadly this has soured things at time when we most need a spirit of generosity among players. I agree further bitterness does nothing but foster further bitterness which serves no purpose and achieves nothing but making everyone more miserable. It's a vicious cycle many have tired of already. Though some may still feel antipathy towards old in-game enemies, the reasons for this have been now removed from the game. Though this loss saddens me since I did enjoy the Wildy as it once was. However, I realise too, there is now no reason for Skillers to hate Wildy PvPers (ex-PKers) or vice-versa; such old antipathies are redundant. Further enmity only scours open wounds and serves no purpose. It's now time to start building a parts of the game a new. I hope those that PvPers that choose to remain will help join efforts to construct ideas, and put in legitimate claims for the new areas for PvP the likes no MMO has seen. I do hope even those who did not ever use the Wilderness do realise that PvPers have suffered the loss of big parts of their game-play, and that they too are supportive of any endeavour to get new content to replace what's now gone. For even Jagex admits, what PvPers have now is not perfect and needs our ideas for it to to be improved. There is much work to be done. Regards, Fey.

The truth about IGE and the gold industry As a (related) aside, DEN was one of the most spectacular flameouts on the web. An interesting read is the [link-expired] board. So Brock was management in a company that fleeced millions, happened to be in Spain where Collins-Rector was also, and then moved the company to HK right after he got arrested? Interesting bit of coincidences. With that vulgar picture in mind, we take a break, and look at hte original pioneer. Gold Industry begins with Yantis Selling virtual currency was nothing new when Brock came rolling in. eBay had tons of auctions for UO Gold (and still has quite a few). Yet what really got the market going was a Mr. Jonathan Yantis, of MySuperSales fame. Originally starting with EverQuest, Yantis (as he was referred to) quickly became a villian in the game. Looking to broaden his appeal, Yantis bought out Monkly-Business, which was the favorite hangout for EQ Monks. Gaining more traffic from this, he then expanded and bought out Luclin.com and Prexus.com What ensued was a firestorm. While M-B had been left alone, Yantis directly moderated the newly bought boards. Removing all bad press about himself, and seeding in threads about how great his service was, the two sites were completely dead within weeks, all links changing from the original sites to newly ones created by users. Yantis had tried using his money to buy part of the market, and he had failed. This all happened before IGE even existed on the radar. At this time, Yantis had successfully become the biggest player in the market. Dominating the marketplace at PlayerAuctions.com (Sony had successfully gotten eBay to remove all EQ auctions, and thus people used this site instead), he had also begun to aggressively advertise on other sites. With a 10% comission and a rumored 40% profit margin, Yantis was sitting pretty. Then came IGE. Well-financed, the company started making inroads into the market. A professional service equal to Yantis, they started to gain market share. Yantis was not sitting idly. For all the money he (and IGE) were making, their exposure was still very little. He owned a few sites, advertised on a few (but none of the big ones), and was paying quite a bit to advertise through Google and and Goto/Overture. It was with the introduction of IGE that in late 2002 Yantis started playing the SEO game. A lot of SEO (search engine optimization) can be cast as spam. Stuffing their page with keywords, buying links from pages with high PageRank, these specialists game the system so that their sites show up on top of search engine results. (Please note: A lot of SEOers are great people, who don't spam or [bleep] sites. But an equally large portion is a shady underbelly of the internet). Suddenly Yantis was getting tons of traffic from search engines. He even broke top 10 on google for the word 'everquest', displacing quality sites with his platinum-selling storefront. So while Yantis was rapidly getting new customers, whats a competitor to do? And so begun a movement engineered by IGE to discredit Yantis. While Yantis was marked as being an individual using exploits and dupes to create gold, IGE set themselves up as the 'conscientous' choice, a good and moral company that didn't employ and farmers and just paid wholesalers. Yes, I'm serious. The sentiment actually shifted with Yantis being blamed for all of EQ's ills and IGE looked up as a 'good' alternative. But that didn't stop Yantis. Far from it. He kept growing and growing. IGE was also growing (and building contacts with game providers), but was still second to Yantis. And so this continued until end of 2003. Suddenly MySuperSales went offline. Was all that money making just a mirage? Not even close. While I cannot trace it specifically to IGE, the attack worked. Whois history shows Yantis suddenly moving to Rackspace after the worm was identified. You can see that Symantec marked its distribution high, so whoever put this out did a good job. Almost sounds like online rackateering. But this worm was just a preview of the upcoming fierce battle. Yantis begins acquiring MMO websites Around New Year's of 2004, while everyone at SOE was busy eating and sleeping, Yantis announced the acquisition of a few sites. Starting with EQBeastlord and EQDruids, the sites had suddenly sold out to Yantis. But this time, instead of moderating the forums, Yantis opted to just stick his banner on the site, and leave it alone. A smart move - most newbies would end up just viewing the content anyway, missing all the [bleep]ing happening in the forums. And since he wasn't moderating the sites, a lot of the links never got removed. And so began a movement that finally broke down the barrier and made currency selling common. Happy with the results from the first days, Yantis started snapping up websites left and right. Before SOE even new what had happened, half a dozen class websites were under Yantis' ownership. And he wasn't done - not even close. Over the next few weeks, deals were made, only to be broken by IGE waving around money. The peak (with EQ) came with interealms.com - the largest forum community, it suppousedly went for over $50,000. What made this even more nuts was that Yantis had already bought and paid for the site. The owner actually returned the wire transfer and stated that Yantis, enraged with what had happened, actually threatened to sue him for breach of contract. Along the way, in continuing to develop its relationship with game developers, IGE hired Themis Group, an MMO consulting company. After a fierce backlash, the company removed all signs of the deal ever having occured. Themis Group also owns the WarCry Network. That never happened, as what happened next blew most people's minds. Note: I've only provided a link back to the Original Author of the Article being one the editor of the the following MMO fansite wow.Azzor.com. This is only a teaser and a small part of the whole article; as such I've not provided any contextual links provided in the actual article from that site. Please contact them if you have any questions regarding the research behind this article. It's important to keep in mind like for RuneScape fansites: Like our community they too are in this battle against those who would seek to undermine the principles where: For those interested in what MMO websites are doing as a wider community to oppose the RWT industry please visit NoGold.org:

Intriguing. Any links you want to send to Jagex do it here via "Comment on our service". Simply put at the top of the message the title: "Real World Trading sites - Rule 6, 7 & 12 violations". Your message will then get channelled to ICU. If this is the case, it may explain some of the kinds of malicious spam on the ORSF. (Thankfully Tip.It is not being targeted by RWTers it seems) While I sympathise with players who've lost the *old* Wildy, since I'd learned to survive and live in it too, I'm afraid siding with Gold Farmers has only damaged PvP and chances for the honourable PKers among us to put across our views on the updates. I feel sad about it all but I've realised the best efforts should now go on fixing the replacements, and hopefully convincing other players that honourable PvPers deserve new areas dedicated to that part of the game. The greater majority of PvPers are not at all related to these RWTing cheats. Sadly those PvPers supporting RWT have only damaged others view of Wildy PvP and PKers. I despise Gold Farmers and their robotic minions and hope they leave in droves. RuneScape does not need them. For those of us left we need to start suggesting ways to fix the mini-games and suggest new features (e.g. A new PvP mini-game island with a lot more diversity in Combat styles, environments and rewards that only skilled PvPers can use). To ensure this we need to fix Bounty Hunter so it's fairer for all styles of PvP (not just 1 Item PJers). Let's not waste time on these cheats who are now leaving our community. It's time to build new PvP areas and concepts from the ground up so they can't abuse us or our game again. Regards, Fey.

This *should* read "similar to its high alch value '-' i.e. (minus) the cost of a nature rune". I think the '+' sign should be read as an 'and' rather than in it's formulaic sense. This is something many players have requested. I've had been in the habit of saving screen-shots from the NPCs standing around the G.E. but this has all been interrupted by other uproars taking away from my in-game time again -.- Besides spreedsheets get unweildly after awhile and one needs to build databases that are a whole other time-consuming activity taking away from scarce game-play time. Good work to all the posters here who I know have been contributing to the florid debate over the G.E. I miss those days (even though they were only last week). It's possible they might allow 'no' price limits on the initial days maybe. I think that for some items the 5% limit would be actually useful, especially the highest priced items where manipulation is likely to be rife. For the lowest priced items, e.g. below 1000 GP, the limits need to be raised considerably (since it appears they can set them on individual items - yay) to vary by at least 10 if not up to 50%. Over-time if we can give consistent feedback about these problems we can hopefully inform Jagex which items are problematic, and which ones aren't (those least open to manipulation are ones with the largest constant suppliers and buyers). Again good job to everyone here who helped put the case for changes. Now ... only if we can get the forums back from spammers we can actually discuss things there again. Regards, Fey.

Their best drops are 3k gp, Dragon Dagger and Clue Scroll. I've heard there are 'clans' of Revernants running around the High Level Wilderness (at least one with 3 Level 126s and 3 Level 105s) that even the Highest Levelled players fear on their own. With such difficult opponents, they need decent drops to make going up against them worthwhile. If they had decent drops it may make it worthwhiel for clans to go hunting these clans of 'super' NPCs. At the moment though in these numbers it's best to flee even if you're a Level 126 yourself, since they're likely to easily kill a solo player. It's something I will rant about myself once the spamming of Ratns stops on the ORSF. As Jagex admits these updates are not perfect and do need improvement. I say lets make sure these problems get fixed. Revernants need far better drops. I guess we've been ranting about wanting stronger nastier beasties :anxious: Is it likely that there's any pattern to Revernants that can be marked on the new Wilderness map? Maybe we need to gather some more information on these vicious gangs NPCs and their haunts, since they seem to roam far more freely than normal monsters that are restricted to the respawning hot-spots. Regards, Fey.

Bingo. And the gold farming bots would continue to bot. And if Jagex reduced their prices then gold would simply become very cheap increasing the value of items but making the earning of gold other than by buying it pointless. It would have been simply a tighter but more vicious cycle where it would've be pointless to play if you didn't buy gold. A pity they could not have revamped the Wilderness into one big Bounty Hunting Arena but I guess that'd make targets too hard to find on too many worlds. I'm still not giving up on though. I believe it's time to suggest *new* PvP Areas that maybe only are accessible to skilled PvPers. They'll have to fix bounty hunting first so rankings are the result of individual skill rather than just massive teams of 1 Item PJers. Regards, Fey.

Hi Da_Latios, Thanks for that. Looks like my favourite Green Dragon hunting (bot reporting) spot is gone too. I tried finding it and ran around for hours only to gain the attention of Revenants. :( I guess there's nothing else for it but to get on with it.

Agreed. At those levels always keep enough to heal at least 60 - 100 of damage. At that level too they all have a nasty habit of teleblocking, meaning one needs to run all the way out. Just because there's no more PKers doesn't mean those who enter won't get KO'd. Revenants unlike most other NPCs (except bosses) also switch combat styles as soon as they stop hitting. So always be ready to switch prayers before they start doing serious damage again. They're healing rate is also like that of players so if you've PKed or anti-random PKers those killing skills will come in handy if you're going to do anything but run. The feeling to me is more like that of Meiyerditch with over-powered NPCs with god-like powers seeking to take you down. Thankfully unlike the Vyrewatch they're not plastering the Wilderness with an incessant watch; if you hang around anywhere between hot-spots or do something for too long though they seem to come out. I don't know what that means for the Wildy Agility Arena since that was a fun spot of mine to train relatively unnoticed. Oh... and even if you get them off the square of the map... like PKers once did they will continue to hunt you at times too. They don't seem to be tied to one spot and may keep coming for some time. So far I've managed to kill one at Level 22, but at higher levels I didn't have enough food to win the match.

The only reason I suggest the experience theory is that it would take countless hours of playing to be able to give any significant amount of money away. However, if you look at unbalanced trades that are not gifts to friends, I believe that they are people being nice at training spots, etc. Both of these are good points. In combination they could allow the different types of giving. With the RS Postal service maybe mini-quests might be required and stamps can be earned by carrying out tasks. Of course these systems will need to work in a limited way to ensure it too can't be exploited. My brain is melted at the moment so I'll just sit back an read what other's come up with in the meantime. Regards, Fey.

Sadly it was very uncivilised in there today. Now it's dropped back to levels seen during the Pest Control and Duel Arena changes. It's now possible for the genuine ranters, and players with ideas to improve on the update and make it more workable, to post in Rants on the ORSF again. Glad to see Tip.It faired well. It's good to chill out here. Take care all ... gotta get back to real life for the rest of the day :wink: HYT Regards, Fey.

Thanks Armadyllo, You've expressed my sentiments quite accurately. There are some very unfortunate (to say the least) changes to the game, which means large areas of game-play, in the Wilderness particular, have been lost. Where we go from here? It's obvious on reading those News articles on the RuneScape site, and seeing the magnitude of the change, that the greatest loss of friends for us and accounts for Jagex has already likely occurred. There may be further losses over the next few days too. What will happen from now on will be crucial (judging from the Tip.It poll) for the next significant number of players within the next 6 to 8 weeks. If Jagex does now listen to our critiques and helps mitigate some of the overwhelming effects by restoring some game-play, they may stay. In the end new players will likely not know what they missed. It is similar in that way to what happened with RuneScape Classic, in that this change has altered large parts of the game in a short time. Good luck to everyone whether you choose to stay or go. For those that stay now the real task begins of finding problems, and posting as convincingly as possible to ensure they can be fixed. Regards, Fey.

Hi Fredz, It was probably the tone of my writing that was unnecessarily grim and if that put you off. I apologise for getting lost in the seriousness of it all and forgetting about you and other players who are the people I'm meant to be responding to. It's just while I was composing that long post I was reading articles about that company which...to be honest...disgusted me. I had mentioned these articles to Jagex staff, and they said they were well aware of the background of this company. It's also one of the reasons they are so opposed to RWT. The bottom-line I guess is that if these are the type of people who promote and conduct RWT, they are certainly not the ones you'd want your teens giving any personal contact or financial details too, let alone meeting up alone with them in-game. As far as detecting RWTers is concerned that's something that will always require us as players, to keep Jagex informed. As it was players who first reported these odd behaviours in-game, and players who complained, and for players Rule 7 and Rule 12 was written, it's obviously we who will likely also see problems at times before Jagex does. As a programmer I know how important user comments are about any system, and they can often spot things that even the best analysis can fail to identify. Contrary to some mistaken beliefs, reporting does help. From my own observations of the Hi-Scores list after submitting reports nearly 100% of my Rule 7 reports result in names being removed That anecdotal evidence alone, for me at least is proof that very report does get checked. Indeed, if our reports may identify new patterns and actions by bots previously undiscovered. So it's likely our reports that are essential to helping fine tune whatever detection systems Jagex uses. This is why they've posted a detailed sticky on how to submit reports. It's our help that will ensure that bots, regardless of their attempts to avoid detection, will always been seen and reported by us. This is similar to what other players have said here, and I do trust we will know a bot when we see it: Today is a perfect example, of what kranked1 was describing. At the Yews behind the Varrock Palace, two other players and I knew who exactly who were players and who were bots. I succeeded hopefully identifying and reporting at every bot in that area over a period of 2 hours, which will likely result in removing possibly 20 or more. I did all this while not interrupting my game-play too (in the spare moments between waiting for Yews to grow back). I also noticed the bots were occasionally typing a dialogue 'dot', one might presume as a counter detection measure. As I'd been there the day before doing the same thing, Jagex will have 2 days of reports, with a record of the dialogue and frequency of their counter-measures. Sorry I don't have time to answer the other good questions and responses here, but it's been a long day at work, and doing volunteer work (for the RuneScape player community) usually takes up a lot of my free time before I even get to play the game we all enjoy. On that note happy debating :)

I do agree that typing all criticism as bad misses the chance things can be improved by well worded posts pointing out flaws. If anything, it's the good and well written rants that will improve the game for all players; though obviously not all will agree equally on what those improvements might actually be. I do not agree however, that such improvements are mutually exclusive from ensuring any improvements to also further help remove cheaters from the game. It's not an either/or situation, but one that needs all angles and players' issues taken into consideration. I spent some time visiting friends and cutting Yews on F2P today; half the type I spent simply chatting and reporting bots; that's certainly something we don't want to see returning to Members' Worlds. So just because it looks okay on Member Worlds now, does not mean no more needs to be done. Personally, I have quite a few friends who were good stakers, and who now have a good Tournament ranking. If Tournament ranking can have another use, it would be good if that gave two players with a good ranking the ability to stake higher again upstairs. On the Rants sticky on the Duel Arena on the ORSF (Official RuneScape Forums as they call it on Tip.It), I saw many useful and possible solutions posted that could, from the point of view of another player possibly work. I do know those ideas did get read, and hopefully those that were a little more complicated may go into development. That could of course mean it may be many months before we see any result. However that's a typical time-frame. The new Bounty Hunting Game and Clan War Arena were things suggested on the "Improvements to the Wilderness" sticky back in Jul - Oct 06 and it's taken just over year for them to come out. So while I certainly don't agree every update is perfect, I agree we need to focus our attention on the features that are creating problems for players, rather than getting worried about the amount or the type of feedback. Regards, Fey.

Actually... Pretty much everything Fey Warrior talks about is a result of the black market aspect. Allowing it the way Sony did gets rid of all those issues in an instant. Black markets have always attracted more serious crime when the money involved gets serious and when the rule-enforcers blow at actually enforcing rules, as is the case with RWT. The only thing IGE shows is the huge hypocrisy of game companies. They don't even dare to take up a lawsuit against the company - and the main reason behind that is that they know they'll take a significant risk that they will actually loose such a case, which would then serve as example for many RWT cases. Game companies close their eyes for the real crime and only deal with the small fish that they can handle and whom are generally insignificant in the larger picture. The player population is so blind that they can't even see through all of this. As the new CEO said in a recent interview RuneScape is not written to allow real item exchange that would still leave a balanced game for those players who did not want to buy expensive items with real money. Maybe other games Jagex may write may be capable of it. The other problem posed by allowing companies allowing RWT is that it doesn't stop illegal activities or trade. If anything it further complicates issues of ownership and transactions. One only need browse the plethora of issues currently faced by Second Life and other games like Entropa and Sony's EverQuest II. While it's true there was a time when only players cared about these issues, back in the day. Now thanks to all players in many games, companies realise, that if a game isn't designed from scratch to allow RWT it will damage it's subscribers, and many are beginning to act. The fact that Gold Farmers are now looking at taking billions via RWT has inevitably attracted the attention of governments, tax departments, criminals and law enforcement (not all in that order). Our challenge as concerned players is to ensure our voice is heard and that the game we play, is taking these problems seriously. The sheer amount of money involved in RWT though is actually intimidating, since one can imagine with that amount of money comes a lot of buying power. Power to buy software engineers to crack, exploit and avoid detection. Along with that power and the fact these companies operate outside of any contractual arrangement with the games exploited, they are able to avoid all the other obligations of online or service industries, including protection of consumers from identity theft and fraud. I am concerned about these developments, which is why I seek to share information and raise awareness of these issues among my fellow players. In the conversations I have had with some staff at Jagex, they are aware of IGE and the history of it's founders, as well as the abuses players suffer at the hands of these groups. If anything they do share our concerns, but they also must listen to the voices of players who don't want to see measures that would take away from their game-play. Ultimately it's a compromise between freedom to play the game how we would like, as well as putting in place measures to stop those who would exploit those features that would detract from our game. It's a very hard balance for companies like Jagex to reach on their own without our input. We as players need to consider the best ways to suggest improvements and measures, that will keep our game safe from these cheats and malicious people, while keeping it usable and most importantly of all, enjoyable to play. Here is a site of other MMO player groups, seeking to inform players and take action against Gold Farming, which do have some links to recent legal manoeuvrings: http://www.nogold.org/ If the class-action by players against IGE linked from this site, gains any traction, lets hope Blizzard and other MMOs like Jagex follow suit. Regards, Fey.

Hi Fredz, I suggest you read those articles. This is not fiction. The current owners/founders of IGE are individuals who worked on the board of DEN. Both Interpol and the FBI have conducted investigations into DEN. It was DEN that produced that disturbing material & allegations which later resulted in convictions against the head of DEN. This is merely one example, of the kinds of people that run these companies, of which IGE is currently the largest. Anyone who believes that Gold Farming companies are legitimate upstanding corporate citizens on the Internet, are the ones who aren't living in the real world. Even the Chinese government is seriously considering prohibiting Gold Farmers from operating in their country due to the criminal elements they see are involved in what now is a at least 7 billion dollar a year trade (that figure is being IGE's estimated income alone). The Korean Government has already taken steps to curb the illegal trade, and protect the MMO industry in it's country; it allows individuals to join exchanges and trade items & gold where permitted by a game's developers. As your examples show these kinds of exploits and abuses by bots and the later Gold Farmers have long been a concern to RuneScape and it's players. These concerns are shared across many MMO companies and subscribers so affects far more than the players of RuneScape. It's only now legislators in some of our countries are looking at it's effects, not just upon the gaming industry but on the many of it's citizens. Given many players in MMO are minors (teens included) are particularly vulnerable, both the companies and governments are need to show parents that they are acting against these illegal traders in MMO 'virtual worlds'. As for that colour scripting program is still also a blatant violation of the RuneScape's Terms of Service. That site is known to Jagex too. Players who do that kind of cheating obviously care nothing for the harm they do the the player community or the way such sites are used to source further bots/autos/macroers for Gold Farming groups. To say there are no real threats to today's MMO communities, from these rule-breakers is sadly remiss. This does not mean we should shrink or cower; it means we need to be informed about Internet safety and measures to inform all players about why we should not allow such malicious people to exploit our game or our community. Please do me the courtesy of reading the material I've quoted to support these statements, before criticising the points made. Thanks.

If you do see, hear or find anything of the sort you can help defeat them by ensuring you report any exploitable bugs via the "Report a bug/fault" link on the front RuneScape page. Bobbington2 has raised an important point in posting: Players shouldn't forget the a major motivating factor behind Jagex's action has been our expressions of concern as players about the effects of rule-breakers, like bots, and the bad things that flow from them. This is why I worry when players express views that Jagex should stop worrying about cheats ruining our game; were Jagex ever to give into cheats it would be be disasterous. I for one, and many others I know, do not want cheats of all forms in our game. Bots in particular do fund more menace they they first appear and so aren't innocents but possibly vanguards of worse and more malicious activities that threaten our game. Reports are mounting that bots may to be feeders for areas of major concern for law enforcement agencies. Whether or not this new concern being expressed by these agencies and departments, is reflected in why Jagex has listed these agencies on the bottom of the "Protecting our Players" page is hard to say, but it's good to know Jagex is already working with them if issues arise: Contrary to some the myths being propagated by some angry recent efforts to stop rule-breakers, those who do cheat in our game are no longer harmless in the real world. They may be involved in serious criminal activity. If either you or your parents see or hear such activity in-game please report it. If you hear or see anything in the game and fail to report it or see material that raises serious concerns on other websites you can report it here via the "Other comments" link. This new report from Internet Security Company Symantec highlights just how great a risk we all face from rule-breakers in our game. They are no longer just amateur hackers, but like the rest of the black economy on the Internet likely to be involved with groups that launder money for criminal activity. Sadly it seems teen and adult players who buy from Gold Farmers may also be interacting with potential Internet Predators who are involved in more sinister activities. This is another reason why we need to act further to remove these real-life threats to players in our game. This is why I am very concerned to warn all players and players whose teens and younger children may play the game: Don't give your personal contact or families financial details to these Internet Criminals and Internet Predators. You can read the investigative report by RadarOnline about this jet-setting Internet Predator, who likely help fund one of the biggest Gold Farming operations, as well as being the mentor for Executive VP of DEN (and also IGE's founder). According to RadarOnline's report the convicted child predator is likely to have concealed his wealth in as well as helping to establish IGE's operations. Another article by ZDNet related to FBI investigations on this same case. Also note that player activists in other MMOs caution all that just because they gold-farmers don't have IGE's stamp on them doesn't mean they aren't shop-fronts with IGE behind them; these sites get taken down all the time as they're reported by players to their respective MMO. Don't be fooled; these groups are not above board nor to they operate like legitimate businesses. So it's now possible that those who break the rules by buying gold from these Gold Farmers has funded those who abuse children. Sadly I'm not surprised to find these people who own these groups involved; since they show little respect for the contractual (or for that matter legal) boundaries of other companies, as well as plying their trading internationally in what is now a vast unregulated currency/item exchange which governments are only now investigating and raising concerns among those in government, which only darkens when physical abuse of real persons is closely associated with such groups. It's in our interests, as much as the interests of Jagex, to remove these rule-breakers where ever we see them. Help us help the community fight to keep these malevolent elements from threatening our own and our family's safety and enjoyment of the game. Sorry for going off-topic a bit here about the dangers posed by bots. Yet there are mounting reports about the bad things in real world that bots fund. It's these darker associations that have the potential to harm far more than just effects on the in-game economy: [hide=Some off-topic links for those concerned about Player Safety] A useful link from Symantec for parents concerned about the safety of their teens as well important links to information on RuneScape for parents and players. Remember if anyone asks you for personal information in-game, and it makes you uncomfortable report it under "Rule 13 - Personal Details". Jagex will ensure that if there is an issue they will look into it, and if serious they will contact the relevant authorities. RuneScape is a Role-Playing game. There is no need for anyone to be asking you about your real identity or contact details. Better safe than sorry. [/hide] Regardless of how 'bots' may evolve, we as players know how players should act. We are therefore the ultimate bot detectors, that can never be defeated. If a new potentially possibly 'undetectable' bot occurs, we know where the report button is, and our reports will ensure Jagex can investigate the account and stop them before they continue to harm either other players or our game. Take care everyone and be aware so you can be safe. Regards, Fey.