Fey_Warrior

Oops. Sorry if that's happened :-# Feel free to use the information posted. Maybe you could help more players be better informed about why the community should be cautious and ensure action is taken against these rule-breakers. I try to find sources for all my quotes though, so they're a good place to start. Be wary of keeping to only well known and trustworthy sites though since there's a lot of dodgy sites on the Net now. Be very careful though as some of those dodgy sites are potentially operated by actual criminals who don't muck around if people cross them. This is why I keep all my personal details hidden, and don't post against such groups except via my avatar names. That may sound like paranoia but there are actual reports of mafia sending operatives out to foreign shores ... reliable enough reports for me to consider the safety of my family and friends in these sensitive matters. Regards, Fey.

Heh... I was looking for a worthy quote for my sig :wink: Edit: Sadly the extra 47 pixels in height would put my sig over the limit. Still worthy of a quote though 8-) --- Back on topic: This is true of all computer programming. It's all derivative. This is why Patenting Computer Concepts has the potential to undermine all known programming. Which is why IBM and Microsoft hold each other to ransom with their Software Patent Portfolios. They refer to this balance in the computer industry M.A.D. (the Mutually Assured Destruction) of software as we know it. Copyright is different though and should be enforced, since that's the work of the Author (the writer of the code). Though some author's choose to share their work under G.P.L. (General Public License). It's a weird world the software industry, since it's alien in many ways to other forms of property. Of course if you attempt to exploit or break other people's software that's vandalism or theft in my books. What Jagex has done is original and conceived in their own offices, by their own staff without seeing one line of W.o.W. code. So sorry, in my books, RuneScape is not copying (or breaking copyright) of anything in W.o.W. As for Software Patents (if any) held by either Jagex or Blizzard, that's an entirely different and complex matter, dependant on impossibly complex manoeuvring of legal minds, rather than code conceived in programmers minds. Given they're the two biggest companies in the game (in terms of subscriptions) I doubt they'd want to waste time on each other given they're aiming at two completely different niches of the MMORPG market. In my view W.o.W is more like Guild Wars but with less impressive graphics, and not instanced beyond the MMOG part of MMORPG like is done in Guild Wars (making the only MMOG part of Guild Wars the Towns and some aspects of their PvP tournaments - when in spectator mode). Meh... i only have time for one game, and despite some friends and family being elsewhere in the MMORPG universe, I've stayed with RuneScape.

People discussing a party, and word spreading to "gate-crashers" doesn't necessarily indicate the friends are untrustworthy. People overhear stuff and tell others and the vicious cycle begins. Hi Cjmftw13, My point in that post is that freedom and authority are never absolutes. There are some great books to read that help illustrate these issues. "The Outsider"/"Le Stranger" by Albert Camus "Nineteen Eighty-four (1984)" by George Orwell. Between absolute freedom to govern ourselves and our own activities and authority that attempts to impose itself too much, there are always trade-offs. Camus' refers to the conundrum of individual freedom versus hidden costs of that individual freedom in some of his books in the idea: * by seeking absolute freedom we are enslaved by it, Since by choosing to act only for ourselves and our own satisfaction, we eschew our bonds to the community. This means we would be acting in our own interest without regards for the rights of others around us. * the freedom comes at a cost of ignoring our place in a community and doing what we want to please ourselves, regardless of how we may displease others, breaking the social bonds. For those rebels in his books that sought freedom from authority, that ideology of freedom itself was way of chaining oneself to ideals, and putting those ideals over the well being of other people. Artists in particular were known in his day to sprout ideals of freedom while being cruel and heartless to their friends, family and to others they were meant to be committed too. It's a stark contrast George Orwell's ironic statement that 'freedom is slavery' and 'peace is war' illustrates the inherent contradictions we face as people in societies. Because they are paradoxes they don't have any final solutions, nor are they resolvable by going too far one way or the other. The bottom line I think Camus illustrates in his books is that is eschewing others and our responsibilities to them, we free ourselves up to act as we wish to act. The cost though is heavy, since by ignoring the inevitable effects (both good and bad) of our actions upon others, we risk ostracising ourselves. My point about the party was not about friends we couldn't trust. It was about our choice to do something in the absence of authority. In such an absence, as nature abhors a vacuum, came others who did not respect either my sister or her friends, who threatened violence against us, and used the fact that they'd entered a situation where authorities would not intervene, instituted their own little dictatorship albeit one of fear and repression. I think my sister and I learned a lot of lessons that night. We learned that doing things on our own is fun, but the other side, in the absence of parental supervision, are more dangerous and potentially malicious individuals who took advantage of that absence of authority. The people who assaulted me, and threatened to assault my sister and her friends, and beat up people out the front were criminals. They didn't care the cops were watching outside on the street, or that we were simply trying to have fun. This situation sadly is not that different now form what is occurring in 'virtual worlds' on the Internet where an absence of in-game authority has let in the 'Internet criminals' who make it their business to exploit flaws in online games, trade for real world money and according to authorities are connected to groups known to launder money for criminals or worse. These are the people players should be aware do lurk in any 'virtual world' and why parents should be cautious about allowing their children unsupervised access to any place on the Internet. In the absence of authority, sadly far worse people tend to congregate. This is why I personally do not feel removing the censor, or attempting to exclude parents (and those they must supervise) is going to create a better game. A game with only teens in it would be just as much a target for those who would prey on the young. I hope my long windedness isn't a problem (I try hard to curb it) but I feel these issues of player safety, connected to real world issues of age and maturity do require us to consider all the real world problems that can accompany them. Regards, Fey.

I agree that in order to respond to change we need to learn to adapt to some extent. In addition as players we also need to be certain we are specific about our issues to ensure that any problems we have with changes are fixable. So while the sentiment here is understandable, I agree the article itself did not help either by seeking our problems that may be addressed. As far as 'ranting on other ranting' goes, though it's a truism, that what's often lost when we're angry is perspective. The wider affects beyond our own game, and the game-play of our groups of friends, is lost to what is sometimes a blinding rage. So far from avoid making complaints, what we need to do as players is make our complaints more specific about what are our issues with game features, rather than building the Tower of Myth predicting doom for all player-kind. Regards, Fey.

:shock: What's up with the people with the brainpower of a bird saying that most cops should die? Strange but true wisdom you have shared there, harrinator1. Whiles it's cool to rebel, what happens when all authority is gone? Anarchy is all fine and dandy until the mad-mob turns on it's own members. My sister and I found this out when she had her 18th party when our parents went away on holiday. Sadly some of her friends weren't trustworthy and a party for 11 of her friends turned into a mob over over 110. The result? Well...we called the police but because the mob had already turned many times larger than the local police on-call so they didn't come in and help. Some of my sister's friends suffered bad injuries, and our parts of parents property were destroyed. Well...obviously we were both seriously grounded too, but we still felt lucky no one died. That was well over 10 years ago now. Oh and we never had another party since. Sadly such scenarios according to reports are more common now...in fact from what I've heard parents are told by local authorities to either pay for security guards or don't hold teen parties. If you seriously want anarchy (to be rid of figures of authority), there'll be a point when you realised when you've gotten far more than you ever bargained to get; and if you don't pay the price someone close to you might. Making your own rules from scratch is never as easy as one thinks it is. Suddenly you'll be wishing for your parents, and anyone else who can help hold of the worse aspects of human nature in check when things go bad. Go read Shakespere or even better "Lord of the Flies". The anarchy that ensures is actually a very grim scenario and nothing like the kind of freedom it's been romanticised to be. Regards, Fey.

While I feel sad that many of these 'workers' are either exploited or under-paid, the work they do is still illegal. By manipulating the property belonging to another legal entity, and reselling it illegally they're violating the copyright laws and Intellectual Property laws in many countries. The only reason many of them aren't prosecuted though is because Internet regulatory structures around the world, and laws between countries over online conduct, as well as online trading aren't covered by a single consistent framework. This makes protection and prosecution difficult. With pirated goods it's a lot easier to stop the import since customs in many countries catch and prosecute traders in these goods. With virtual goods the law is still catching up with these effects. The bigger worry for players of RuneScape and other MMORPGs, apart from the negative effects of having to compete against those who exploit the game illegally for monetary return, is the criminal elements now being found up the chain. While still true the problem for us as players is that gold farmers make access to extraction spots and any return on many extracted goods devalued to the point it's worthless extract these good for trade, or even to train some skills. That damages the game for players, and in turn hurts the companies since paying members get frustrated and may leave the game. The criminal elements however post a much greater threat in the long run since these groups, due to the volumes in trade are now becoming according to some reports by law enforcement, viable channels for laundering money. This means real criminal elements may be using the trade in virtual goods as a means to convert large sums of cash into desirable real world currencies in order to avoid detection by taxation and law enforcement agencies. Governments are concerned enough now to start placing limits, and begin monitoring of trade in any virtual items or currency. What is following now is the legislative frameworks, and the law enforcement muscle to clamp down on this illegal currency trading. RWT in all MMORPGs given the trade now is in the ten millions of real dollars (U.S. Dollars) or more a year (some estimates now place virtual item & currency trading in the 100s of millions) mean these fears are likely real. To set up shop, these traders may use the labour of the individual 'gold farmer' in many countries where labour is cheap. There is as many players point out no guaranteed wages or conditions, and most of the jobs in these places fall within the definition the International Labour Organisation (I.L.O.) would define as 'sweatshop' conditions. The collectors at the higher end are effective companies trading without licences or any kind of legal contract in the Intellectual Property of another company. So as they're operating outside of any legal framework they do not give any consumers who purchase these services legal protections, since customers buy at their own risk. They also interact at their own risk with what are for the most part fly-by-night operations that guarantee no legal protection for confidential personal or financial data they may gather from players. This includes all credit card, personal contacts and other information. Given the lack of any guarantee that can realistically be offered, and that these are all unregulated traders in what is essentially a real-life black market monetary hole in real world economies, this is a very worrying trend. Players who choose to break the rules and buy from these traders, not only risk losing their account, but they may be trading with persons who may also be connected to real life criminal, or worse, terrorist groups. It's really impossible to tell if their intent is merely to break the game rules, or go further, and on-sell personal credit card, financial and personal information to less scrupulous or even criminal procurers. Any one who doubts the reality of the risk of identity theft, and financial fraud on the Internet is obviously placing themselves and their families as serious risk. The Internet is no longer a nice, and is certainly not a safe place. Add to that the risk that those procuring data from RWTers may in-fact have more than identity theft and fraud on their minds. The fact is Internet Predators and paedophile rings exist all over the Internet, and many operate from the very countries engaged in gold farming. Would any parent want their child to put themselves at risk by trading with groups that could simply be spruiking for victims. Don't kid yourselves kidnapping by online Predators, who will travel overseas in a flash if they find a vulnerable target. While those are all frightening scenarios, any experienced player should know that if it's happening illegally, and there's no legal protection being given by these groups, there's also no guarantee these things aren't happening. The worst part is that they are already happening in many places, and online gaming is fraught with risks if you give out personal data? Why add to that risk? I'm sorry but I can't feel sorry for the poor gold farmer. It's the responsibility of the governments in these countries to regulate their labour markets and protect the welfare of their workers. Those countries that fail to do so, leave not only the individual worker who steal objects (albeit as individual gold farmers in small amounts of objects from other players) but also leave these workers and those consumers in our countries ultimately at the whim of illegal traders. I would not trust those who trade in RWT in the same way I would not trust other workaday criminals who thieve in the real world. There's no difference in my opinion. As as for the slaves/workers at the bottom of this food chain, sadly they're just as vulnerable, and liable to abuse, as the players who sadly will find their accounts banned by trading with them. There's nothing good that can come from RWT. Some further not-so-light reading: Wikipedia - Game Sweatshops UK Law to Condemn Virtual World Transactions? Cops Learning How to Extend Beats Online 'Virtual theft' leads to arrest Cybercrime More Widespread, Skillful, Dangerous Than Ever MMO Mafia - Gold Farming & The Beginning of Virtual Organized Crime Boring Game? Outsource It How a Gold Farm Works Why PC Gamer Kicked Out Gold Farmers Crime - Virtual Worlds Target For Money Laundering Security News - Symantec sees [bleep]e in crimeware kits, organized cybercriminals Cybercrime: Will WoW Become A New Stage For Money Laundering? Stealing Imaginary Things Onliner gamer stabbed over 'stolen' cybersword ICC Commercial Crime Services - Virtual money laundering threat identified theguardian.co.uk - Screen grabbers - crime hits the digital frontier Grand Jury Busts 17 in Internet Crime Ring CAUTION: As usual be very careful if you visit sites such as blog and non-mainstream news sites. I always have Anti-Virus and any Anti-Spyware, as well as Firewall protection enabled, and never click on links I do not feel I can trust. I cannot therefore guarantee the safety at all of any subsequent links you may wish to follow. --- This last link below is a link I do recommend since it gives a low down from a renown Internet Security Company - Symantec, and contains a podcast about the scores of threats all users of the virtual worlds face today: Symantec - Internet Security Threat Report, Vol.12: Future Watch - Virtual Worlds --- Regards, Fey.

I know in the country I live in there are issues at times with the reliability of the Internet Service Provider. While I'm not saying you should not notify Jagex of your concern, this outage was not related to the servers at all. For me and my connection I know lag is an issue, even though I have a DSL connection. The only solution for me though is to move states or move to a country with much service provision like New Zealand (apparently Australia ranks way below New Zealand reportedly thanks an Australian telco another player named on the previous page; there are certainly some customers that do express a lot of dissatisfaction regarding that providers level of service). What occurred in the outage though was a complicated piece of routing equipment went rogue. If you've seen routing tables, and the esoteric logic that goes into routers (which the Internet depends on) you'd be left wondering how the Internet works at all. A good thing to learn from is attempting to set up a router from scratch (a Linux box) and write all the 1000s of rules just to network a few computers to the Internet. Firewalls and routers can difficult to run at the best of times. My point here was that this was an unexpected issue, which has likely occurred for every enterprise that runs a network. It's not something that's recurring or cause for undue concern. Regards, Fey.

Hi ixfd64, Thanks for taking the time to write up and post your analysis. My suspicions have been related to this since I know myself, it means I can set a price (possibly higher) and forget it. This will mean the real bargain hunters will still be driven to market worlds and marketplace forums to see what more their money can buy. I'm personally not going to undersell simply to get a quick sale if I can place my advertisement and let it take care of itself. The same principle seems to work on ecommerce websites where prices seem generally higher or else carry other issues of delivery delay (like Ebay) because the seller is offline and one can't negotiate a deal with them live, which is why weekend classifieds still have good circulation and readership.

How am I "taking it a bit far"? By continuing to talk about it? I don't see why I shouldn't, when the situation persists. Jagex clearly isn't going to stop marketing to kids. If the few people like myself who try to bring the issue to light stop, then what? As has already been mentioned several times, the book was written at Jagex's behest and with input from Jagex employees (including, if I am not mistaken, at least one of the Gowers.) Jagex chose to have this book written at a level appropriate for pre-teens. Jagex chose to publish it with Scholastic, a company that specifically puts out kids books and sells them in schools. Why? Bobbington2, you're clearly an intelligent person, but I have to wonder if your status as a moderator has affected your ability to be impartial. (Frankly, I think that using players as moderators is not only a way that Jagex gets free "slave labor", but it's also an instrument of control.) Be honest with yourself. Is it reasonable or appropriate for Jagex to have a RuneScape book that gets kids excited about playing the game, being marketed to 10 to 12 year olds? Hi qeltar, While I respect you for the fact you do care about other players, and do make honest attempts to foster good relations among players in the community, and for that you do deserve due acknowledgement. However, what concerns me more about the issue of preteens in the game, is that some players of indeterminate age (since I don't go about asking other players their ages or attempting to verify if they can play the game or not) seem to feel it's their personal crusade to rid the game of both younger and older players. RuneScape has a huge range of players, though it may [bleep]e in one or two demographics, we should not be seeking to expel who sections of the player community. That is misguided, and in my view, more damaging than the presence of preteens (or other age groups for that matter) in our game for reasons I'll explain here. They were in the game before any restrictions were placed, and likely with some parents who may create an account to play with them, will continue to be a presence. Sadly, though I cannot describe what's occurred in terms of specific incidents as I'm bound to confidentiality, there have been examples where players have harassed others in-game because they believe they're "too young to play". Frankly, the real age of other players is no one else's business but that of the responsible parent or guardian of that player. If some players feel they've been given carte blanche to go around harassing others then unfortunately highlighting the age issue has gotten out of hand, or had unintended negative consequences. As far as player maturity is concerned, though it can be linked to age, it's also critically related to: * A players ability to negotiate the rules of the environment, * and utilise the features of that environment to ensure their safety, * plus be respectful of the fact other players in that environment are real people too and not just avatars. So some parents feel their children are mature and responsible enough to play with them in the game. As some parents have said to me their children are actually more mature and respectful players than those that might be far older. I agree that no preteen should be creating an account. Nor should they play unsupervised (on their own) if their parents have created an account for them. I would also point out no one under 18 should be creating an account on RuneScape (let alone any other site) without informing and getting permission from their parents first. The Internet is simply not a safe place for kids or for any unwary person for that matter. We should as mature RuneScape players be encouraging others to ensure they do not go about harassing others; I'm sure we both agree there is no excuse for that kind of bullying of other players. Now, I'm not saying you have in any way been responsible for that, but sadly this focus on younger players in the game has lead to incidents of unprovoked abuse on younger players. I know this as I've seen parents complain about this this occurring (again I am bound not to name players or give details). While I am happy to advocate you and other concerned mature players pointing out to Jagex improvements, and posting suggestions for new features that may help parents encourage their children's responsible game-play, I am not for the sentiment that says we should be prohibiting the responsible adult or guardian from making these decisions for their children. I think your original topic for this thread has raised an issue that should be a concern for all users of the Internet. The ability to remain anonymous is a condition and a feature of the game, as well as the Internet. The only people who should know who a player is and what they do is the parents and family and close friends of that person. As for everyone else, they should not be seeking to discover who that player or person is in real-life. For example: I don't post my age and avoid posting personally identifiable information on the Internet (I keep my business persona separate entirely from my private life online). This is because Identity theft is a real problem for all adults and likely as big a problems as other threats to our children on the Net. There are serious issues of crime occurring now, and criminal groups which are infiltrating our online communities and online worlds. So while I agree there are serious threat to players in our game from Cyber-bulling. There are also very serious issues that also involve law enforcement like Identity Theft, Money Launderers (recent reports indicate Gold Farming & Sales may be a serious breach of money regulations internationally as well as being implicated in Credit Card Theft and related issues of Identity Fraud), and serious issues of Personal Player Safety. The fact that children may play under parental supervision is an issue for parents though, though it remains important to raise issues that you feel will help Jagex further assist parents. I simply cannot agree though that Jagex does not care about issues of Player Safety, specifically ones relating to Cyber-bulling. In fact volunteer moderators & Jagex very much seek to cooperate and listen to the players in the community regarding these very serious issues. If anyone believes they've witnessed such events they should report them to Jagex or to moderators immediately as all such concerns are among the highest order of emergencies. I suspect that Tip.It moderators would take any matters raised with them with similar gravity. Player safety is paramount in all our forums and our broader player community. While I concede it's possible that some parents may be less than diligent than they should be, I think your highlighting this incident here shows even caring parents can be caught unawares. However sad this incident is, it's not an isolated one. Teenage suicide was an issue before the Internet, though the medium and rules surrounding teens interactions have changed, the core issues of lack of self-esteem and the many pressures modern teens face did exist before. At my high school I seem to recall announcements with disturbing regularity regarding unfortunate events did have to a number of our peers. This, of course, does not mean we should not address any issues we see or that we should do out utmost to stop any preventable harm before it occurs. If there are important ways both the player community, it's volunteer moderators can help Jagex improve the protections it provides to all players, then by all means we need to give the that highest consideration possible. It's important though not to alienate anyone in this process though, since gaining the cooperation of all groups and parties is essential if we aren't going to miss important opportunities for improvements that will still need to be made regardless who wins the arguments on any particular thread or in any single forum. Thanks.

Andrew's cat did what! He probably should lay off the catnip. Quoted from RuneScape Forums > Recent Updates > This mornings outage For anyone who has worked in Information Technology Network support or Telecommunications, this occurs far more often than people realise. The fact this was fixed in under 3 hours in the wee-hours of Sunday night shows Jagex likely has a very good warranty from their communications company who supply the hardware. Routers of the level I expect broke aren't cheap; they're usually in the realms of 10s of thousands of pounds/dollars/euros each. And even if there is redundancy built in (i.e. identical routers sitting alongside) all sorts of issues can occur if the equipment doesn't fail correctly, and keeps running so the redundant harware doesn't kick it. That sounds like the case here. I know only last Friday Australia's major telecommunications provider had a major failure that took our all the DSL connections in our area of the city for several hours too. It really does happen all the time and not even the telcos themselves are immune. Regards, Fey.

We should always give thought to others and the effect our behaviour has on them. If we don't then our own lack of foresight can always come back to haunt us, especially if later we discover our words were the reasons others were seriously harmed. There is never an excuse to flame or insult another person. This can also occur among adults, even those who professionally should know how to cope with abuse. A state politician in an Australian committed suicide a year or so back. The politician whom I won't name had made a bad gaff at a party one evening that was caught on camera and subsequently splashed all over the media for several days. I'm sure none of the critics intended harm (beyond that person's political reputation), but that's why words we use are so important. If we are going to be critical we need to be precise, and ensure our comments aren't unfairly aimed at the person, and instead address the issue or cause of our criticism. Thoughtless criticism of another person's vulnerabilities can have devastating results for all concerned. Regards, Fey.

I'd say those threads were likely locked because they contained nothing but rumours that are likely to inspire unnecessary upset and distress in other players. I always run Updated Anti-Virus and Anti-Spyware as well as doing regular Anti-Rootkit scans. I've logged back in and there is simply no problem here. Though very few players have repeatedly posted such hoaxes with malicious intent, I still think it's unnecessary and unhelpful, for those who continue to do so when there's obviously no evidence to support such claims -.- For players who've been spooked by these hoxes, however have lost out further on their game-play simply because a few wish to amuse themselves at the expense of other less well informed players. --- Andrew has made a post now here: * RuneScape Forums > Recent Updates > This mornings outage * Quick find Code: 15-16-889-53971080 Apparently Andrew is sleep deprived from several days of programming. Maybe his coffee was spilled but I don't think they allow coffee in server rooms these days. If anyone here has worked in any server rooms they're usually environmentally controlled and locked safety beyond the reach of coffee spillages :P Players can give feedback to Jagex on that open sticky if they like, but I'm sure everyone else is too busy getting back into the game ;)

Hmmm... Classic servers have gone back to normal levels and ... looking at the RuneScape front page players are back online. Looks like action stations. Thanks to Tip.It for keeping real 8-)

Agreed. Not to mention, they would have booted everyone politely, warning us about a server update. Interesting ... as I'm (sadly) not a RuneScape Classic player I should be getting "Unexpected server response". I suspect there's definitely some Classic players who can go online though which is why those servers have players listed. Maybe those that can get online have their accounts stored a login server that is still reachable from the Internet. Meh ... agreed it's all speculation, until we see something official, which I strongly suspect will likely be at the same time we see the servers come up too. What worries me more is the spreading of wild rumours, rather than well reasoned guesses based on good observation (MechScape ... *sigh* ... come on people *if* that's indeed being developed by Jagex, it's an entirely different game and will have it's own infrastructure). We can only sit back and post on Tip.It meanwhile which is holding up admirably under unbelievable pressure from the player community. Regards, Fey.

It's all 1 server so once the worlds are down so is the main page and updating it for that matter. Rsw44 I think that they are puting in the grand exchange because ( IMO) the grand exchange must be added to every server because the grand exchange wont be affected by the overall servers but by the only one So they are updating the game so that all servers may have the grand exchange I wish to beg all your pardons here but I don't believe those scenarios are the case. Whenever they apply updates to the servers, the servers show as OFFLINE, and it usually cascades down the server list. I've never seen server updates requiring all the servers to be taken off-line. Sorry to disappoint some here too, but I suspect we won't see the Grand Exchange till the end of the month (though I could be wrong and we may see it late tomorrow). The only time I can recall that the servers have shown 0 players on every server, was around the middle of this year (I'm thinking it was August now and not June) when a critical piece of routing equipment that their ISP had installed, failed. From the details I remember reading on Tip.It and later on the Official RuneScape Forums, it was the loss of that router somehow disconnected Jagex's main backbone to the Internet, leaving only the website and RuneScape Classic running. I believe this is the case since that's what happened at that time too. I have a feature in Firefox that shows IPs, and the website actually consists of 11 IP, some of which may actually be assigned to more one server. The reason why, even though their website was still up, that they couldn't edit the page, was the servers that display the site, are merely HTML cache servers, and the site editing is done on a separate server, before it's replicated to the caching web server that give us the pages. The RuneScape Classic servers login systems, and those web cache servers probably are reached by a different connection to the main one which has affected all the RuneScape 2 login servers. So the problem here is that the login servers, and likely Friends List servers (from what players described above) are unreachable via the Internet. I bet those servers are running fine, but nothing can get in to them and nothing can get out to us. These are my educated guesses based on what we saw last time Jagex's ISP let them down. There's nothing we can do though, expect be patient and wait for the servers to come back online regardless.

As soon as I was logged-off I checked RuneScape classic server list. The RuneScape Classic servers have had nearly 800 users while I've been watching but it's been varying a bit. I think the bottom-line if for us as players not to panic, and to wait for the issue to be resolved.

I doubt very much if this was anything to do with a sever crash. In my view it's likely their Internet Service Provider (ISP) again. This last happened on Jun 15 2007 (when Tip.It) last got bombarded by a record number of users online. Andrew came and posted on Tip.It, I believe, to explain briefly what had occurred. It looks like their ISP needs reminding this kind of disconnection isn't good for their client's business. They might need to get a better ISP it seems; and could be time to get a new one if the contract for that ISP is up for renewal now (my guess anyway knowing most businesses get contracts for big ticket items). I'm just searching to see if that thread is still around. The signs are all there like they were last time, with only RuneScape Classic being accessible and the front page being visible. This must mean they've got a different connection for those features. I know there's always Jagex staff in the building; Sunday it'd be 2 a.m. crew. This would never be much fun for the night-shift :( The best thing we can do as players is take a break and hopefully connectivity will be restored as soon as practicable.

:lol: half the players would get banned if that were the case. Only half? Ya, more like %80 of the population if we rated it by how they acted...scammers,bots, beggars...man there'd be barely any players left!._. tell me if I may be exagerating Hi Death Hippy, I'm sure you have absolute faith in your own views on this. I know attempting to convince you otherwise would not be point of my posting here, so I'm simply posting my views and understanding of the rules governing the way we can interact with other players. Maybe reading Mark Twain's oft misattributed quote to Benjamin Disraeli may be useful when you wish to consider using statistics in any arguments in future. Quote from Wikiquote - Mark Twain - Misattributed Put simply: statistics used outside of research reports, and supported by all the mechanisms that accompany academic aspects of it, are probably the most notoriously unreliable way to reinforce discussions which are based on promoting opinions. While you are entitled to your opinion, I'd caution anyone against using such figures unless they're sourced. You could use the Polls conducted by Tip.It for example, or the polls on the RuneScape site itself. Even then act of bringing figures from a poll, that wasn't conducted directly to support argument, is always perilous. As far as I'm aware though, there's no poll regarding excluding other players from the game, or about removing the censor from the game. Additionaly Jagex states "We can never please everybody and believe it or not most players are actually in favour of there being a censor" on this thread: RuneScape Forums > Rants > Rants About The Censor. In the end though, I would simply state my own view and argue with others based on the points made within any thread, then attempt to conjure statistics. The fact that other player's real life attributes differ from our own, would necessarily be based purely on our assumptions about their background, their likes and dislikes. So I'm doubtful anyone create such reliable research of this kind, since it'd require the kind personal information which would be against Rule 13 - Personal Details to obtain in the first place. I am always highly sceptical for that reason of any supposed arguments for further acting against or actively excluding other other players from the game, based on what is purely assumptions about the ages of other people, which is actually more an argument about the maturity, or lack thereof of other players. Maturity being more about a player's ability to comprehend their virtual environment which includes: * the rules concerning their behaviour towards other people, * the features controlling interaction in it, * and how a player's own actions may have repercussions in game that does involve playing online with other real people. And even if players could construct such arguments, Jagex doesn't collect age data for players under 13, since to create an account a player must: 1) Be over 13 2) If they're under 18 but over 13 they must have obtained their parents permission, i.e. directly asked their parents, if they can create an account. Jagex says it retains the right to terminate an account if false information supplied, but in effect they're likely only to terminate an account if a parent says they either did not give that permission to a player between the ages of 13 and 18, or else they are withdrawing that permission. In addition for any player under 13 who creates a new account Jagex will delete that account: From Jagex Terms+Conditions That's because unless you confirm you are the parent of another player Jagex will not discuss another player's account with you, even if you report them for breaking a rule. And if you can't confirm your the parent or responsible guardian for that player, Jagex would likely be highly suspicious why you're asking for another player's account to be terminated. As the only rule in game that matters with regards to other players real life attributes, is that none of us should not be asking or attempting to obtain information that would be required to confirm another's real attributes or identity, Rule 13 - Personal Details, so it's actually impossible to go about in-game verifying such personal data. In other words what players say about themselves or their age, is not only unverifiable, as I said above there's no way to know what another says online is true (unless you're literally in the same room with a person and see them type it but then you can simply ask them in person anyway). Regardless, attempting to verify other players details by seeking things like their birth-date(including year), schools are they attending or have attended in the past or other personal background (all of which could easily misused locate that player or attempt to steal their account) would very likely get those attempting to do that to other players into trouble. So these arguments about further excluding players based on our perceptions about their age don't seem useful to me, since none of it can make claims to be be based on reliable research of the player base. It's all anecdotal, meaning: it's purely based on our opinion and our individual experiences in the game. And what confuses me most with continued ranting about the ages of other players is that the core issue; a perceived 'lack maturity' in the game-play of other players; is directly an issue with other players ignoring the rules and not showing mutual respect for other players. Surely rather than attempting to exclude others based on their real life attributes, we could take a more constructive approach, and remind others about fair game-play, and treating others with the respect we ourselves would wish to be treated. Regards, Fey.

No worries reaper88888. I agree as long as players don't forget about responsible gaming [See Jagex advice on the RuneScape site] it need not be a problem. Everyone is going to have a subjective view on this of course. My partner and I don't agree, for example, that excessively dangerous or competitive sport is 'healthy' activity for kids or teenagers. As an online game she prefers things like Scrabulous however, over MMORPGs, but that's because she's never liked Sci-Fi-Fantasy books regardless. My sister & I however have always been Si-Fi-Fantasy nuts and we both have huge bookcases full of them. It all depends on who you are, and why you play. There's certainly far more damaging things Adults do pursue out there, than getting involved with their kids playing an online game. Worse, many adults simply aren't interested in what they're kids do, or attempt to bully their kids to become something they'll end up rebelling against. I know many adults who do player MMORPGs with their kids, and though their kids do play sport as well. Getting to know what you kid players, and enjoying playing it with them can be a good way to relate to teens parents might otherwise have trouble communicating with. The fact that 57% of the adults in the survey did say they played with their kids seems to have gotten ignored in the conclusions drawn at the end of the article? 57% is huge given they even admitted that means the recent changes. Some of that is obviously due to changes in demographics mean a lot of more us adults are computer savvy now than there used to be. However, the fact they drew this conclusion signals a bias in there reading of the statistics, which makes me feel they're out for Adults versus kids editorial in the news. For these reason it does sound like another media beat-up I'm afraid. This wins my media furphy award for misleading commentary on video games. Of all the mistakes a parent could make in parenting, playing alongside their kids and being part of the community in a online like MMORPG like RuneScape, is certainly not one them. It's the parents that ignore their kids or teens interests, and palm them off onto a computer without a second thought that worry me the most. I think the message is moderation in all things, not just in one aspect of our lives. However, being human we're all prone to obsessions of one sort or another. It's just how we choose to spend that 'quality' time and it's effects on us those around us that we need to be aware of to be 'healthy'. Regards, Fey.

I had a lot of fun just reading this thread. It's the thoughtful responses on threads like this being one of the reasons I Tip.It. I play for fun too. Being down-under in the Land of Oz everything costs more (though our sky-rocketing dollar is changing that) so RuneScape is the most competitive game of it's type for the price. It's not price alone though that keeps me playing, nor the fact that I can't or won't bother to upgrade my systems to play the more system resource hungry games. Though mainly playing from my laptop now does limit this - and I do travel quite a bit leaving my desktop PCs behind - so constantly having to upgrade high-end-graphics capable laptops is not cheap! So I choose to play with more freedom via a laptop so I can travel interstate or overseas & still play. Being able to log-in without worrying about FPS (Frames Per Second) means one can start-up the game without the constant stress of having to plan for further upgrades to the latest equipment to keep playing; I help others with their technical issues all day - why do I want to make more for myself! The fact RuneScape has meant I don't have to deal with recurring technical headaches just having to run a those more demanding games, which destabilise what are basically work computers, is one of big reasons I have stopped playing nearly all high-system-specification games now (inc. W.o.W & G.W.); I've even given away "the Sims 2" to my mother who plays that now with my niece. Any game that requires me to buy a new computer every year, or constantly upgrade their innards and stare down driver/stability issues is off my shopping list...permanently. I do live and work on computers and the Net everyday, I like the way one can come and go to RuneScape to suit oneself. While other MMORPGs I've tried can suit the casual gamer. It's the only game in which other players tell me they can play without having to be part of a group. This high level of freedom of choice is what makes the game interesting to so many different types of gamers, whereas other games do seem to require players to make the choice to be involved in groups, at one point or another, to truly take advantage of the game-play they offer. That doesn't mean of course that RuneScape doesn't have a lot group-based play (clans, guilds, cities, etc.) but one needs never belong to any group, freeing up the need to fully commit to game in order to play it to ones own satisfaction. It's by being a all of those things that RuneScape competes: having a low-budget-impact (price of a magazine subscription), having a low system resource profile, and by allowing players to their own style of game; whether they want to play a low-key game, or get deeply involved in the game-play of others. It's for all these reasons I believe is why RuneScape captures more of the Bartle types out there on the Net, involving a huge variety of people in its game-play. Regards, Fey.

From the posts I've seen Andrew has make on his forums, he is planning on sticking with the on-going 'version': "RuneScape Forums > Recent Updates > Update process explained" So as Bobbington, and the Thread Author, Truffoo, have pointed out the current version of the Game Engine likely makes the version we're playing RuneScape 5 or something. With continual updates to existing content the existing game is likely to continue to evolve in front of our eyes. Take a look at Auguste (from 'Enlightened Journey' Quest) and other newer NPCs. It's likely that given the Player Kit upgrade from August, this time next year we may have seen further upgrades to player appearance, and likely over the coming years to every nearly other part of RuneScape we see. One day a thread like Bobbington's will remind us just how different the game has become from when it was relaunched as RuneScape 2. As there is no version code that we can see we can refer to it as RuneScape (n) since it'll be 'n' versions of engine and content updates since that day. Maybe if someone had the time and Browsed through the new archives and did the following: Added a major version for every Engine Upgrade stated Added a minor version for every Content Update We'd likely end up at possibly a very high version number indeed, though it'd still be speculation given we can know this 'number' as we're not Jagex. I'd say personally though, the whole kind of instant karma/revolutionary change in-one-go has become little more than popular myth; sadly it's mythology that's been of more use to account thieves who build their hacksites on unsubstantiated rumours. If you hear of any such sites (remember there is currently no such thing as RuneScape 3) report them via "Comment on our service" via the "Other Comments" link on the main RuneScape site, but DON'T ever visit them! They will steal your account. Jagex will only ever announce official changes first on their RuneScape home page. As these changes to RuneScape are happening in small incremental steps though, and given the increasing size of the RuneScape population, I agree, that makes more sense from a Player's as well as business perspective, since it's never going to be the kind of interruption we saw when current version of RuneScape was forked (a software development term) from RuneScape Classic. I doubt very much we'll ever see that kind of interruption again. Instead we will continue to see updates, some being in the eyes of players, more revolutionary than others. Regards, Fey.

Quest Calculator & Combat Level Would it be possible to add both required and recommended Combat Levels to Quest Requirements. Combat Level requirements/recommendations are likely to become more common with the Higher Level quests being added to the game. "Dream Mentor" has a minimum Combat Level requirement of 85. "Contact" has a minimum recommended Combat Level of over 80 (on Tip.It). Player's obviously still attempt "Contact" with below recommended level but it would also still show as red. Obviously the page would need to plug into the Combat Level Calculator which the Tip.It website already has. Regards, Fey Warrior.

Hi Dragonlordjl, It's really your choice whether you choose to use the Official RuneScape Forums on not. If you choose to post a valid rant/suggestion the volunteer team of moderators there will do their best to ensure the rules are followed on any legitimate thread. As volunteers they can't do more than than enforce the rules with the tools they're given by Jagex. Any time they spend moderating is taken away from what is recreational time meant for gaming anyhow. As RuneScape is a game, all players have real lives & responsibilities that go far beyond it, making any time spared for helping or improving the player community a precious resource. Those of us in team who do post on Tip.It, do so not because we can't post on the Official forums, but because we feel Tip.It is a force for good in the fan-site community. As well, anyone including Free-Players can post suggestions here, which Jagex may find useful (provided they post a release so Jagex can use the ideas as Bobbington has done) as well as having the nice option of using graphical images to illustrate the idea. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread isn't about the Official Forums or issues you may have with them, regardless of who posts upon this thread here (remember Bobbington & I are only volunteers there). This thread was addressing what players think may be the result (positive or negative) with the coming of new CEO to Jagex. In my personal view Constant has done a great job taking Jagex this far. I personally enjoy RuneScape a lot as a game. So I am only one among a number of other players here, who is hoping the change in leadership at Jagex heralds a continuing process of improvement for them. Regards, Fey.

(.. edited out link as I've seen this thread highly doubt those claims ...) Image not mine its from the linked topic. :lol: :-w I'm always dubious about low resolution JPEGs posted of CS Appeal Responses on the web; aside from the fact it violates the Terms & Conditions of their accounts if they're posted publicly; there's simply no way to verify if if such screen shots are legitimate or not. In my view players have a legitimate claim against an offence, they're not likely taking time the time to upload such images even, since they'll be appealing to Jagex and getting their offences removed from their record. I'm not saying every image is photo-shopped but quite a number of them look dubious and often post ridiculous things that I know would never get through Customer Service. Every message gets read even if some messages receive what looks like templated responses; that's likely due to the message being generic in nature. It's a commonly reproduced myth that Jagex uses an automated C.S. response feature; the fact is we simply don't get our responses under 60 seconds which would be the case *if* the system was automated by some script; so such claims are merely baseless rumours. If players have a real issue, attacking Jagex CS here (while it might feel satisfying to some to vent) isn't going to help them in any way. I'm always left feeling, if they truly believe they have a legitimate claim against the company or Customer Support, they would've already lodged a complaint and received a satisfactory response by now. Contrary to some of the rumours being spread I've yet to see Jagex fail to fix mistakes when complaints have been logged correctly. While other players may have had a different view, I've yet to personally see convincing evidence to they don't take note of appeals when adequate evidence has been supplied by players. While I agree there is always room for improvement in any business in they way they respond to customers, especially since all online businesses are quite new by comparison with old style customer service, the most severe and extreme claims I've seen posted on some threads (many of which, to be fair, aren't posted by Tip.Iters or even on these forums) simply don't ring true in my view. Back to the topic of this thread, I know PayPal used to get a lot of flak, and I even lodged a few complaints on behalf of clients. Generally though, especially in recent years, they've taken all all those complaints seriously and dealt with them in a professional manner. If this is any guide, and Jagex's new CEO had a hand in that improvement, it's likely we'll see similar improvement for those players who wish to take the time send in their legitimate feedback & complaints to Jagex's CS in the future. Regards, Fey.

Hi Dragonlordjl, I have seem similar feedback on the Official Rants Forum. This is the kind of well worded feedback that needs to be discussed by players and emphasised to Jagex. No single player or volunteer moderator however can make these points alone. I look forward to you posting about them further. Regards, Fey.