acenator

I really don't see why merchanters buy out partyhats when doing so only nets you 1% each day while every other item out there can get them 5%. 1% of something is better than 5% of nothing. Yep, especially given the fact that 5% of 1m = 20k , and that 1% of 100m well, duh, 1m. Cant compare percentages on items of completly different price ranges. Yes, but if you're going to invest 100 mill in something why not put it in things that can get 5% so that you get 5 mill instead of the 1 mill you get from the 1% item? When dealing with percentages, the total cash invested doesn't matter unless you want to calculate your cash returns. No matter how you put it, 5% will always be better than 1% when investing (especially when the price is guaranteed to rise because the item is being bought out).

I really don't see why merchanters buy out partyhats when doing so only nets you 1% each day while every other item out there can get them 5%.

I improvised after not being willing to pay rediculous prices, I used my cat, bit it then threw it at my victim hits pretty much the same, but its free. :lol: ROFL!! :lol: I knew they'd crash eventually... TBH, anyone who didn't expect them to crash needs to get an angry cat thrown at them.

There are tons of items not listed on it. Such as, Saradomin Hilts. Are you trying to tell me that despite all the CS teams clogging up most of the LS worlds every day, that not one Saradomin Hilt was sold? How does this list work anyways? If it goes by value... somehow, I doubt any party hats total sales this week exceeded that of the Saradomin Godsword. Or Vesta's Spear exceeded that of a Dragon Chainbody. On that note, why is a more valuable item listed beneath a less valuable one? (Look at Corrupt Dragon Battle Axe and Onyx Ring). This chart generally follows a downward trend in prices, however, it doesn't seem very accurate to me. I think if you want to use this as evidence that something isn't being sold, you should first explain how this thing works. I cannot explain exactly how it works, but I do know that an item must be sold for it to show up on that list. And, seeing how the other two spirit shields are there, I can safely say that the DSS and ESS have not been sold on the GE in the last 30 days. Also, if you check the current prices of corrupt dragon battle axes and onyx rings, I'm sure you'd notice that the corrupt dragon battleaxe has a higher market price than the onyx ring and is therefore in the right spot on the list (it lists items by the actual market values, not the prices listed on the right which show the total price change over the designated time period, the least the item's been sold for, the median price it has sold for, and the highest it has sold for). Corrupt Dragon Battle Axe - Mid Price of 2.6M Zuriel's Staff - Mid Price of 2.7M, right underneath the Battle Axe. The prices apparently changed since I saw them this morning, but now, Corrupted D B Axe is at 2.6M, and above items at 2.7M... In either case, it still doesn't seem reliable. There's definitely been Saradomin Hilts sold, and the whole "raw materials" argument is nonsense. Onyx and Uncut Onyx are raw materials. Magic Stones are raw materials. Because no one knows how this list works, it could easily A) Require a certain amount of sales (not just 1), and B) Not count goods via coinshare. Also, it's funny how both Arcane and Spectral are on the list of goods sold today... and yet people can't buy them right now thanks to them having been flipped. I don't think this is proof of anything, but if you believe it, then that's your choice. Ummm... Actually zuriel's staff is about a page above the battle axe for me, but it is also above pumpkins, so it's all good (in a way).... Maybe it takes a bit to change positions after prices update.... Maybe it's a conspiracy to make us think about it so much that our heads explode :lol: (read the RSOF thread being talked about on the "Noobs Say the Funniest Things" thread). It would make sense that CS'd items aren't counted since they (as far as I remember) aren't used in adjusting prices (and if they are now, I'd like to see where Jagex said this so that I can feel stupid for not finding/hearing about it earlier). Also, it wouldn't surprise me if a few people sold arcane and spectral shields (some people sell 3rd age on the GE). Although this could be used to refute the apparent lack of DSS and ESS sales... If only Jagex told us how things like these worked... As for the "raw materials" argument, maybe it doesn't show items that are linked to the prices of others and only the prices of those they're linked to. Maybe we should get a spy inside Jagex Towers so that we can get instant answers to all these problems.... :-k I think I'll leave this for other people to debate over... As far as I'm concerned, we cannot get an answer to any of these questions without Jagex giving us the answers. Not to mention the fact that you have pointed out several major flaws (that should be explainable in one way or another) with the list in question.

There are tons of items not listed on it. Such as, Saradomin Hilts. Are you trying to tell me that despite all the CS teams clogging up most of the LS worlds every day, that not one Saradomin Hilt was sold? How does this list work anyways? If it goes by value... somehow, I doubt any party hats total sales this week exceeded that of the Saradomin Godsword. Or Vesta's Spear exceeded that of a Dragon Chainbody. On that note, why is a more valuable item listed beneath a less valuable one? (Look at Corrupt Dragon Battle Axe and Onyx Ring). This chart generally follows a downward trend in prices, however, it doesn't seem very accurate to me. I think if you want to use this as evidence that something isn't being sold, you should first explain how this thing works. I cannot explain exactly how it works, but I do know that an item must be sold for it to show up on that list. And, seeing how the other two spirit shields are there, I can safely say that the DSS and ESS have not been sold on the GE in the last 30 days. Also, if you check the current prices of corrupt dragon battle axes and onyx rings, I'm sure you'd notice that the corrupt dragon battleaxe has a higher market price than the onyx ring and is therefore in the right spot on the list (it lists items by the actual market values, not the prices listed on the right which show the total price change over the designated time period, the least the item's been sold for, the median price it has sold for, and the highest it has sold for).

@ Soma: That was a great read with some very insightful observations. However, there haven't been any DSS's or ESS's sold as can be seen by their absence from this page. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that any of your other information/points are wrong, but I did want to point out that any price changes requiring the sale of a DSS/ESS could not have happened simply beause of the lack of a sale of any DSS/ESS or either sigil.

I think some of you are forgetting that there are multiple types of armor/weapons (robes, leatherbodies, all the different kinds of weapons, etc.) that can be used as rewards. I will agree that the achievement diary cape is likely to come out after the legs, ammy, weapon, and arrows slots are used but it doesn't have to stop there (don't forget that there are so many more places to put achievement diaries other than the three left from that poll (with a few being mentioned in that KB article)).

Were the GE adjusted, you'd see the normal players start using it again. Also, did you even read Soma's ideas? There was mroe to them then just adjusting prices. And the ability to liquidate junk would come along with the removal of price floors and dependencies/ties simply because the prices of junk would fall to where people would actually buy it from the GE. Implement both those changes at the same time and you will end up with what you want: people using the GE and the ability to liquidate junk. That said, there is still the chance for the GE to go off-track again, so I suggest you reread Soma's ideas because he offered some loical solutions to this problem. EDIT: And how can you expect people to use it when doing so means a loss of potential millions? Let's say there's an item worth 10 mill on the GE and 100 mill on the "street" and that the prices have not moved for 30+ days. You are out training and get one of these items ("item x"), do you sell it on the GE in order to help "fix" the GE or do you hold onto it? Selling it helps the GE, sure, but now that the GE's got the correct price, you don't have the item any more and, because the price leveled out at about 65 mill and you sold at 10 mill, you just took a 55 mill hit. Yeah, real smart. [/hide] ok but imagine if people used the g.e. and prices did hit 65m, and then you were lucky enough to get another of the item. If people never sold the prices would have stayed at 10m. So by not selling everyone is taking a 55m hit. If no one ever sells, the price will never rise. Actually that's not true. The GE DOES "detect" if an item is "frozen" or not and will adjust the price. How it does this, I don't know, but there's a way it does as you can see with: Party hats, Halloween Masks, AGS and SGS before they fell like 50m. @ magzar: Not if Jagex did what they said they'd do and kept prices up to date. Then everyone would get the full 65 mill. And even if you did manage to get a second item x after the price hit 65 mill (without Jagex doing anything), you still missed out on 55 mill (had you kept it, you would have ended up being able to sell both of them at 65 mill each for a total of 130 mill instead of one for 10 mill and the other for 65 mill for a total of 75 mill). @ Zaaps1: I believe Jagex actually just lowered the required number of completed trades for a price update so that only like 1-10 (only Jagex knows the actual amount) have to go through now for the prices to update. I could be wrong, though (I can't remember for sure if this was officially announced or just a rumor). That may be true, but to my knowledge there's no forum or main page announcement. Besides the amount of Coin Shares would take care of that 1-10 anyway. Whatever it may be, prices are moving (although very slowly for 3rd age and phats; I highly doubt either's price will level out before I head off to college next fall).

Were the GE adjusted, you'd see the normal players start using it again. Also, did you even read Soma's ideas? There was mroe to them then just adjusting prices. And the ability to liquidate junk would come along with the removal of price floors and dependencies/ties simply because the prices of junk would fall to where people would actually buy it from the GE. Implement both those changes at the same time and you will end up with what you want: people using the GE and the ability to liquidate junk. That said, there is still the chance for the GE to go off-track again, so I suggest you reread Soma's ideas because he offered some loical solutions to this problem. EDIT: And how can you expect people to use it when doing so means a loss of potential millions? Let's say there's an item worth 10 mill on the GE and 100 mill on the "street" and that the prices have not moved for 30+ days. You are out training and get one of these items ("item x"), do you sell it on the GE in order to help "fix" the GE or do you hold onto it? Selling it helps the GE, sure, but now that the GE's got the correct price, you don't have the item any more and, because the price leveled out at about 65 mill and you sold at 10 mill, you just took a 55 mill hit. Yeah, real smart. [/hide] ok but imagine if people used the g.e. and prices did hit 65m, and then you were lucky enough to get another of the item. If people never sold the prices would have stayed at 10m. So by not selling everyone is taking a 55m hit. If no one ever sells, the price will never rise. Actually that's not true. The GE DOES "detect" if an item is "frozen" or not and will adjust the price. How it does this, I don't know, but there's a way it does as you can see with: Party hats, Halloween Masks, AGS and SGS before they fell like 50m. @ magzar: Not if Jagex did what they said they'd do and kept prices up to date. Then everyone would get the full 65 mill. And even if you did manage to get a second item x after the price hit 65 mill (without Jagex doing anything), you still missed out on 55 mill (had you kept it, you would have ended up being able to sell both of them at 65 mill each for a total of 130 mill instead of one for 10 mill and the other for 65 mill for a total of 75 mill). @ Zaaps1: I believe Jagex actually just lowered the required number of completed trades for a price update so that only like 1-10 (only Jagex knows the actual amount) have to go through now for the prices to update. I could be wrong, though (I can't remember for sure if this was officially announced or just a rumor).

Were the GE adjusted, you'd see the normal players start using it again. Also, did you even read Soma's ideas? There was mroe to them then just adjusting prices. And the ability to liquidate junk would come along with the removal of price floors and dependencies/ties simply because the prices of junk would fall to where people would actually buy it from the GE. Implement both those changes at the same time and you will end up with what you want: people using the GE and the ability to liquidate junk. That said, there is still the chance for the GE to go off-track again, so I suggest you reread Soma's ideas because he offered some loical solutions to this problem. EDIT: And how can you expect people to use it when doing so means a loss of potential millions? Let's say there's an item worth 10 mill on the GE and 100 mill on the "street" and that the prices have not moved for 30+ days. You are out training and get one of these items ("item x"), do you sell it on the GE in order to help "fix" the GE or do you hold onto it? Selling it helps the GE, sure, but now that the GE's got the correct price, you don't have the item any more and, because the price leveled out at about 65 mill and you sold at 10 mill, you just took a 55 mill hit. Yeah, real smart.

The thread became a debate over whether or not junk trading is actually profitable because that was one of your main arguments in support of your idea to just forget junk trading completely without fixing the GE. Now, I will agree that junk trading is a problem; it is a problem created by the GE. Fix the GE (Soma's ideas being some of the best I've seen yet), and junk trading will go away.

As I said I would, I tried comparing 4 dds specs with 2 d claw specs and 2 whip hits on black demons and what I found was that 4 dds specs > 2 d claw specs every time by a margin of about 40 hits. With that in mind I think it's safe to say that, when in a fight where it's all about hitting hard, the dds is better (since I don't, on average, hit 20+ with my whip) than d claws. However, when in a fight where KO potential is a must, then the d claws are better. EDIT: My prediction for when d claws will crash is 25 mill. As such, I just sold my d claws for 21.7 mill. Because I did this, the price of d claws is now set to reach 40 mill. #-o :XD:

Hey, about that profit definition and the wikipedia link: First off, I, personally, don't trust wikipedia. Secondly, the "profit (economics)" definition given by wikipedia (I only use this because you provided the link and dictionary.com (which ou shoud seriously consider using more often (check for my post a few pages back where I post the definitions of profit, value, and cost)) agrees with the definition) is as follows: With that said, how is selling junk that you got for absolutely nothing (and therefore the "cost of inputs" is 0), at inflated prices to boot, not profiting? As for this thing about you getting a 97% in an economics class (assuming it's true), I have heard stories of successful businessmen sending their son/daughter to college to get a degree in economics only to come back home knowing LESS than they did when they left. Also, since I doubt you'll bother going to dictionary.com, I thought I might as well post a few definitions for you. Now, take those definitions and apply them to the equation you provided earlier (profit = sale price - cost of goods). Once you've done that, apply them to a junk trade. The result should be something like this: d claws: cost = 1 mill in supplies to kill tormented demons; sale price: 18.8 mill (the current "market" price); profit = 18.8 mill - 1 mill = 17.8 mill junk: cost = 0 (you picked them off the ground and/or got them as a byporduct of some other activity); sale price = 31 mill; profit = 31 mill - 0 = 31 mill Total profit = 31 mill + 17.8 mill = 48.8 mill Get the picture?

I so totally think you're right. I wish i had invested in them as soon as they came out...my friend bought 11 min price around midday the day they came out. I know the d claws spec is way better than the dds, plus it has a better str bonus. That kinda settles it. The only thing is when i wanna poison a monster that is hard to kill, else claws almost always win. Although, one could take both and use two dds specs to poison and 1 claws spec to get a good hit. Or just use all dds specs and wait for the spec bar to come back and use claws spec. Do you have to do damage with DDS to poisen? Or can I just hit 0? @dpattle: The reason I think the dds is better for pvm lies in the fact that (slayer) monsters generally have little to no defense which makes the dds's higher max the better choice. However, it could also be argued that the use of 2 d claw specs + 2 hits with a whip > 4 dds specs. I think I'll test this out on my current slayer assignment (black demons) and, if I remember, post the results here. @1245780: I am pretty sure you have to do damage to poison. I have never heard of anyone doing otherwise and any guide that mentions the use of poison, in my experience, also mentions that damage must be done for the poison to take affect.

I have found that d claws are great for pvp, but that the dds is better for pvm (and, yes, that does mean I have my own d claws).

The general stores sell things for either the GE price or the old general store prices depending on which is highest. However, they still buy things for the same prices as they did before the GE.

How about, instead of using the "black hole" system and causing massive inflation (although, I will admit that inflation doesn't hurt the RS economy much, overall), we just remove the price floors and dependencies holding junk at these inflated values so that it can fall to the pittance it's really worth? With that, two things will happen: 1) the amount of junk needed to completed a trade will be multiplied several times over and 2) the prices will be able to fall to where people who are willing to sit in a general store selling things will buy the junk in order to make money. The only downfall is that my (and everyone else's) junk will go from being worth 5 mill to maybe 1 mill, but it's not like we expected to get anything from it in the first place, right? Also, although I will agree that the removal of junk will help the economy overall, I also believe that it is Jagex's duty to keep prices up-to-date with the player economy. This means that they need to start manually updating prices and bringing them closer and closer to the street values until people start using the GE for them again, and then continue to watch them and make sure they stay up-to-date. That is why they made their infamous "GE team" to begin with, isn't it?

Your "profit is an increase in net worth" definition came from dictionary.com? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profit Show me where on that page it even mentions "net worth." The closest it gets is "net income" and income =/= worth by a long shot and actually goes agianst (like every other definition there) your definition. As for the thing about formulas, if they're so concrete, why are so many of them called theoroms? The ones that date way back do so only because nobody has been able to prove them false up to this point. Now, I'll admit there are many formulas that I believe to be concrete, but how do you think people got to those formulas? Who knows how those formulas were derived and the processes that led to their current forms? EDIT: I would also like to remind you that I never said the first equation you provided (the one in the picture) was incorrect. In fact, I even supported it. However, the equation that you "derived" (I use the word "derived" only because I cannot think of a better on) from it ("profit = sale price - monetary value") was, in fact, wrong (not to mention that you came up with it yourself). EDIT 2: Just to clarify why YOUR equation is wrong, I have two more definitions for you to read: Cost: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cost and Value: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/value. As you can see by comparing those two definitions, cost =/= value and therefore sale price - cost of goods =/= sale price - monetary value. EDIT 3: You might also like to take a careful look at the first two definitions of cost:

It depends on what I'm doing, but I usually have either a ring of wealth or a ring of slaying on (I don't feel like spending a couple mill on a ring just for an (arguably) insignificant attack/strength bonus).

Actually, formulas are debunked all the time. The way it works is that someone comes up with a formula that they think works, and it usually does for most cases, but then someone else comes along and shows that it's wrong in one or more cases and it's discarded for a new formula or modified so that it does work. Now, I'll agree that the formula in the picture is correct, but your interpretation of it is far from true (not to mention that your written definition, the one I was talking about, is completely wrong as easily seen by opening a dictionary). As for the second part, excuse me for not noticing that what you wrote was actually two paragraphs seperated by neither punctuation, the capitalization of the first letter of either paragraph, nor an empty line. Maybe if you had the writing skills of a fourth grader, I wouldn't have made that mistake.

I and several others have debunked this definition of profit several times already both with a dictionary definition and the complete decimation of your idiotic profit equation. Wait, so selling it at the GE price (which is what you do in a junk trade) really is profit? You're contradicting yourself and ignoring/trying to debunk legitimate arguments so much that this is getting to be hilarious.

First off, I like the fact that those are two completely different equations. The one in the picture says profit is the "(sales - cost of goods sold)/sales" while the other is "profit = sale price - monetary value." Notice the use of the phrase "cost of goods sold." This is referring to the monetary cost that was paid for those goods in the first place. NOT their GE/monetary/whatever the crap value you want to give them. This means that, if I sold my d claws (which I got from a monster drop) with 40 mill worth of junk that I picked up while slaying (and therefore cost me nothing), I would get 51 mill profit because sales (~51 mill for the claws and junk) - the monetary loss taken to get said items (a pittance if you count the money spent on supplies to kill tormented demons) = a gross profit of ~51 mill.

That's true. But adjusting prices is only half the battle. Consider if the items that are considered "junk" could be converted to gold, and the player sought to buy a rare on the GE. That trade becomes possible, and the item starts to move. The way I see it, adjusting prices is honestly like fighting fire with a cup of coffee. Not so bad for a small hotspot; horrible if you've got a forest fire. Of course just adjusting the prices once to get everything going now with no intention of keeping them updated wouldn't work, but if you get them in the right spot now (meaning that people will start using the GE again) and then follow it up with the end to junk (with the easiest way being the removal of the price floors and dependencies that keep them from dropping to where other players will buy them) and a continuous stream of price updates when they are needed, then you got the whole thing fixed. It's true that adjusting prices is only half the battle, but the battle has to start somewhere. As for Mazgar's incessant belief that junk trading brings no net gain, I have one thing to say (or do, really): #-o How is the selling of something (for more than it's really worth, to boot) that you aren't going to use yourself and you got for free from a monster drop/whatever not profiting? Especially when said item cannot be sold to other players and is worth practically nothing when sold to a shop. You define profit as "an increase of net worth." This is false. http://www.dictionary.com defines profit as, among other things*, an "advantage; gain; benefit." Now, I don't know about you, but I consider selling something I got for free at inflated price people aren't willing to pay an advantage (I sold something not otherwise sellable), a gain (I got something for nothing, overall), and a benefit (I can now use the cash to buy things I actually want. *Some other definitions of profit: "1. Often, profits. a. [monetary] gain resulting from the employment of capital in any transaction. Compare gross profit, net profit. b. the ratio of such [monetary] gain to the amount of capital invested. c. returns, proceeds, or revenue, as from property or investments. 2. the monetary surplus left to a producer or employer after deducting wages, rent, cost of raw materials, etc." Notice the use of the word monetary (it's actually "pecuniary" on dictionary.com, but they mean the same thing and monetary's much more likely to be understood) in these definitions and the lack of the phrase "net worth."

By definition, usefull items aren't junk. However, useless items that won't sell because of artificially inflated prices are. Also, the fact that those prices are inflated means that people, when they use said items as junk, are getting more than said items are worth (which is also known as profiting). As for this argument over using uncompleted trades, how many times must I suggest that uncompleted trades be used ONLY when completed ones FAIL to update prices? Of course just adding in the use of uncompleted trades on every item all the time would lead to price manipulation. However, when there are no completed trades at the current price, chances are the price manipulators won't be able to overpower what the honest players' offers say and, even if they do, what do they stand to gain? The fact that items with artificially high prices aren't selling now means that prices pushed up artificially by merchants wouldn't sell either (unless they're being bought by more merchants, in which case those people are stupid to think they'll ever be able to resell the items for a gain).

You obviously don't understand how junk traders think. Junk is massivley overpriced on the GE due to these things called price floors and what I like to call dependencies (where one item's price is dependent on the price of another item (take a look at the price graphs of supper-poisoned addy arrows and super-poison. Notice anything?)). Because these restrictions keep the prices of items at levels where there is no demand for the item (and they are therefore unsellable), they have no value to junk traders. Until these floors/dependencies are removed (assuming Jagex will never remove player-to-player-trade), junk trading will always be possible. Next, let's consider why people junk trade. If you had gotten d claws the first day they came out, would you have sold them on the GE for 150k when it is obvious that you could ask almost whatever price you wanted and get it? This is called supply and demand. The supply of d claws is extremely limited, but the demand is extremely high and they are therefore worth a lot. The same principles apply to items that undergo rapid price changes. The GE price doesn't represent the supply and/or demand so people find a way to get what the supply and demand says they should get. The way to fix this is to find the difference between the current street prices and the GE price and start closing the gap. Because junk trading has made many people start hoarding the item(s) in question due to their inability to junk trade, the supply and demand price (equilibrium) is really somewhere between the two prices. Because of this, the solution isn't just to change the GE rpice to the street price, but to move it closer and closer over a few days. Close the gap by 25% (meaning take the difernce between the prices, multiply it by .25 and add that on to the curent GE price) the first day. If the GE remains unused after a day or two, knock off another 10-15% and repeat this until the GE starts getting used again. Also, to help prevent future problems, the GE should, when completed trades on the GE fail to update a price, the uncompleted ones should be used instead. Because of the fact that merchants are but a minor portion of the RS population, they would be unable to force prices to move against the will of all the other players with offers in the GE. Also, I suggest you try to find and read some of the older junk trading threads on these forums. This topic has been discussed many times before and I'm not sure I want to start repeating myself any more than I already have (here are a few I went and found just now: http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=776644&hilit=junk+trading, http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=768841&start=0&hilit=junk+trading, http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=745489&start=0&hilit=junk+trading (this one's the longest and most in-depth, I believe), http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=757333&start=0&hilit=junk+trading, http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=750242&start=0&hilit=junk+trading).