Iran, Mutually Assured Destruction, the Strangelove Scenario

[Medellin]

My last post in this thread and I won't look here again,

 

 

 

To further Flamecaller's post, Islam was nothing more than a system to unite all Arabs. Muhammad was a political genius who rode the coattails of Judaism and Christianity to create a new religion.

 

 

 

If people would actually read up on how Islam was created, St. Gabriel somehow showed up to Muhammad and gave him messages from god. Details gets weird later on because Muhammad created an army to invade Mecca since he was ousted. Do you think the same God that sent Jesus (who Muslims also believe as a prophet) would allow another prophet to command an army? C'mon.

 

 

 

To put that into perspective, the beginning of Islam is almost like the South Park episode on Mormons, isn't it?

[Flamecaller]

That's a good point...Islam and Mormonism are kinda' the same...That being that they both came from Christianity and are both built upon a mountain of lies.

 

 

 

I'll make it no secret that I don't believe in Islam one bit and I believe that anyone who is a Muslim either hasn't read the Bible, or is quite stupid and/or very misled. People who convert from Christianity to Islam, for example...Make no sense whatsoever. The Dead Sea Scrolls debunk Islam's claims in their entirety, since Islam is based on the principle that it is a further revelation from the God of the Torah/Bible, claiming that the former two are "corrupted" when the Dead Sea Scrolls clearly prove that they are not corrupted in any way.

 

 

 

I never used to believe in any religion. I thought they were all completely stupid, but once I started reading about Islam and what Christianity has to say about the end of the world, the anti-Christ, etc...I fully believe the Bible can be taken quite literally. When you see what's going on with Islam, and what the Bible says about the anti-Christ, for example...You'd have to be a fool to say "I see no connection here at all."

 

 

 

Still, Muslims can believe whatever they want. I just think they're wrong. Nay, I know they are. They'll try to say you're wrong by using silly examples like "God is eternal! God cannot be born nor die, therefore Jesus was not God!"...So? You forget that A) God can do whatever he pleases and B) Jesus wasn't necessarily God himself. That is an extra belief held by some Christians. I don't believe Jesus WAS God, I believe he was God's son and was divine by way of the Holy Spirit. Jesus clearly referred to God as his father MANY times in the Bible, and when he was dying, asked "Father, why have you forsaken me?", only once (I believe) did Jesus ever indirectly say he was God himself, when he said "I AM", which is what God said his name was. However, God also wrestled Jacob in the flesh, so God can clearly become human if he so pleases.

 

 

 

I have plenty of opinions on Islam, but I'm afraid I'll just get banned for posting more. Apparently, it's some kind of rule of the internet that you have to accept what people say and not debate it (on a forum - where debates are encouraged...umm...) or else you will be silenced.

[Ginger_Warrior]

What does homosexuality have to do with war?

 

I never said it did had anything to do with war. I said it was related to politics.

 

 

 

Bush is not religiously driven, he's a corporate tool

 

So Bush being a "corporate tool" explains his stance on abortion, euthanisia and the like then?

 

 

 

Tony Blair is the biggest flip flopper and you believe he invaded because of God? No, he invaded because he's a US lackey.

 

Trust me, mixing religion with politics is a terrible move in UK politics, let alone actually admitting you've done it, not after the history of Civil Wars in our country, and the fact we have a multicultural soceity. I'm not saying that was his only motivation, like he was some theocrat, but there's no way Blair would have said that had he not meant it.

 

 

 

Umm what? Is Ireland even involved with the Middle Eastern conflict? Is Ireland's history significant to the current situation?

 

Again, where did I say it did have anything to do with it? However, you were arguing that Christianity was less involved in politics than Islam. I'm giving an example (Ireland) to show that that statement simply isn't true.

 

 

 

No. Your thoughts are all over the place.

 

That was your conclusive killer point to that post then? That my opinion must be wrong because my thoughts are (in your opinion) "all over the place".

 

 

 

Medellin, maybe it isn't my place to say this as a part of the staff here and it's Off-Topic, and I emphasise my views aren't representative of Tip.It or its staff. Your behaviour in debates from what I've seen hasn't exactly impressed me. If someone doesn't agree with your point, instead of actually challenging their argument, you just try and make out as though they're stupid and and thus cannnot possibly participate in a discussion with your superior intellect. Now, I'm gonna say that attitude is wrong and frankly, it's starting to annoy me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion without the threat of being intimidated or ridiculed for it.

 

 

 

Now as I said, this is going Off-Topic so I'm leaving this discussion here.

[Flamecaller]

Eh, George Bush isn't a Christian either. Most politicians use that to get votes. Even if they do consider themselves Christians, they surely don't practice it.

 

 

 

The sad thing is that very few people DO practice it the way it should be practiced, and since the majority are doing it wrong...They give the entire religion a bad reputation. Evangelic money-loving scammers...Liars, preachers who preach against drugs and homosexuality...Then go do meth and hump dudes...People claiming they can heal you via the POWER O' JESUS!11 even though Jesus never once said anyone could do that (in fact I think the opposite was said...)...Yea...I think you see my point.

 

 

 

The same could be said for Islam, since people in their faith are trying to use their faith to justify blowing the crap out of people, killing Christians, etc...Only problem is...Their book says this is AWWWW-RIGHT to do. And yes, yes it does say that. I've already explained this.

[LaserDude333]

. Ahmadenijad is not a madman.

 

 

 

 

 

lol.

[Flamecaller]

. Ahmadenijad is not a madman.

 

 

 

 

 

lol.

 

 

 

He isn't. He's a mouth-breather with no power whatsoever.

 

 

 

The Muslim people of the country want to hear him talk about the destruction of Israel...But it's obvious it's just talk, because he has neither the power to order that, nor the power to actually carry it out as a country.

[LaserDude333]

i was laughing at necromagus, Ahmadenijad is more than a mad man.

 

 

 

im from israel by the way but im not religious.

[Flamecaller]

i was laughing at necromagus, Ahmadenijad is more than a mad man.

 

 

 

im from israel by the way but im not religious.

 

 

 

Yea, and I'm trying to tell you he isn't a mad-man, he's just a talking puppet for the people. Rest assured, your country will not be ravaged by Muslims anytime soon. ;)

[Omg_Imba]

@ Topic Creator: I have to apologise for leading this topic astray into yet another religious debate. Seems to happen a lot in this forum. :roll:

 

 

 

*However* , while we are on the topic of religion; Any system or set of beliefs which takes away Mans ability to reason and question in favour of blind obedience to an apparently 'higher' being which advocates moral code from which it is excluded, and whose 'Word' is filled with contradictions and logically impossible events, seems a) Silly and B) Dangerous.

 

 

 

Now, as we're moving back on topic, no one shall post an off topic reply to my statement. \

 

 

 

On Topic:

 

 

 

I would rather have the 'West' solely equipped with nuclear armaments than any of collection of countries. This is because the idea which they claim to defend align relatively closely to my own.

 

 

 

Whether this is infact true is debatable, but that is merely my self intrested opinion. :

[darkmage099]

Darkmage:

 

 

 

First off, I'd like to know how you figure most Muslims are not currently living in Muslim countries (which is what I said). If I had to make a guesstimate, I'd actually say there are more black Muslims than there are Arabs, but I'm not sure. But at any rate, I never said "Most Muslims are Arabs."

 

 

 

Before I say my next thing, I'd like to acknowledge the fact that you're not some psycho terrorist...And I know that. However, here is why killing in the name of Islam and killing in the name of Christianity are NOT the same, they are quite different:

 

 

 

1) Christianity has an old and new testament. The old testament is the only one that talks about killing another for any reason. The new testament has no such talk. Why? Because Jesus came and atoned for the sins of man. We no longer are obligated to kill anyone for any reason, because all the offender has to do is ask for forgiveness (well, and actually mean it and not go off doing it again...) from Jesus, and their sins are cleansed.

 

 

 

2) Islam has no such atonement that I am aware of. You do not ask Muhammed for forgiveness for your sins. You have no atonement, and hence sinners must be punished according to your book still. If it's in there, you should be doing it. If you're not, one could easily ask "Then how are you a Muslim?" and you wouldn't be able to answer. At best, you're a moderate Muslim who merely believes Allah is the creator and la-de-da and you worship him, but you basically don't follow everything the book says. I personally consider that a good thing, but yea.

 

 

 

3) So, when the Bible says "Stone adulterers" and you ask us why we do not follow that command, or use it as reference to Christianity being "violent", that can be argued and quickly put to rest by us explaining Jesus' atonement for our sins. We don't have to do those things. They're no longer valid. You, however, have no such atonement, so when I ask "Why do you not kill the Jews and Christians where you see them?" you can't say anything except "Because I'm not a killer." which doesn't change anything. Your book still says you're supposed to. There are no translation mess-ups or any of that crap. It clearly says it. Have you read the Qu'ran? It says a lot of wacky crap. One could argue the Bible does as well, but I've read them both in a completely unbiased manner and...Ehhh...Sorry, Islam is quite more wacky. :P

 

 

 

Jesus died for the sins of us all, and your religion acknowledges him only as a mere "prophet" and then puts Mohammed above him, even though Mohammed is just a mere "prophet" according to your religion as well. Jesus was also a Jew, and Muslims claim to love Jesus for his work from God, but then will have no problems calling Jews "swine" and "apes". Hypocrites much? Maybe you personally don't do this, but even in your post I can tell you do not like Jews and Westerners in general by your mere astonishment that Jews are allowed to live in Israel. This is not Muslim land...Muslims therefore do not deserve to live there. Just because Muslims lived there once does not mean it is their land. I found it odd that you said "Jews left and Muslims moved BACK" as if Muslims were there before and the Jews drove them out...That is quite hilarious. You call me out as someone who puts too much faith in propaganda? Please...As if you are not guilty of that as well? My view on Islam may be a little warped due to the media (I don't watch Fox by the way, I watch CNN. Fox is for right-wing turdlettes. :P) but your view on things is warped just by being a Muslim. How is that different?

 

 

 

And I can say exactly who will go to Heaven and who will not. I know. Why do you not know? It's quite clear...144,000 people from the 12 tribes of Israel will go to Heaven. BAM! There it is. Says so in the Bible. You, of course, believe the Torah/Bible is corrupted, even though we found the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1948 and they match perfectly with what we have today...And they're over 2,000 years old...Older than your entire religion...Keep in mind God himself said he'd preserve his word "forever and ever". If you believe God wrote all of these books, yours included, then why in the world are you worshiping from the wrong, false book? Just curious. Anyways, continuing on...144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel go to Heaven. Everyone else who accepted Jesus lives eternally in peace and happiness on Earth. Everyone else lives in eternal severance from God. Let me just say that I don't believe in Hell...I believe Hell is a metaphor for the pain of being separated from God for eternity. Seems like a just punishment instead of being morbid and saying everyone is going to burn in fire or whatever, something I fully believe God wouldn't do.

 

 

 

I also believe something else that maybe no one else does...That the acceptance of Jesus can be metaphorical too. Your can say "I accept Jesus and love him with all my heart" all you want and it could mean nothing if you don't mean it, so why should it be assumed you HAVE to proclaim it and say it aloud? Is not living exactly how Jesus lived essentially "accepting" him? I don't know, maybe there's something I missed that says you have to invite Jesus over to dinner or something. *Shrug*

 

 

 

That's all I got to say.

 

 

 

If you guys consider this "OT-SPAMZ!!1" then create a topic about this and I'll be more than happy to post in it. However, I will not make one myself because I don't want to be "The idiot who started another religious topic that got locked because atheists don't know how to control themselves." :P

 

That's a good point...Islam and Mormonism are kinda' the same...That being that they both came from Christianity and are both built upon a mountain of lies.

 

 

 

I'll make it no secret that I don't believe in Islam one bit and I believe that anyone who is a Muslim either hasn't read the Bible, or is quite stupid and/or very misled. People who convert from Christianity to Islam, for example...Make no sense whatsoever. The Dead Sea Scrolls debunk Islam's claims in their entirety, since Islam is based on the principle that it is a further revelation from the God of the Torah/Bible, claiming that the former two are "corrupted" when the Dead Sea Scrolls clearly prove that they are not corrupted in any way.

 

 

 

I never used to believe in any religion. I thought they were all completely stupid, but once I started reading about Islam and what Christianity has to say about the end of the world, the anti-Christ, etc...I fully believe the Bible can be taken quite literally. When you see what's going on with Islam, and what the Bible says about the anti-Christ, for example...You'd have to be a fool to say "I see no connection here at all."

 

 

 

Still, Muslims can believe whatever they want. I just think they're wrong. Nay, I know they are. They'll try to say you're wrong by using silly examples like "God is eternal! God cannot be born nor die, therefore Jesus was not God!"...So? You forget that A) God can do whatever he pleases and B) Jesus wasn't necessarily God himself. That is an extra belief held by some Christians. I don't believe Jesus WAS God, I believe he was God's son and was divine by way of the Holy Spirit. Jesus clearly referred to God as his father MANY times in the Bible, and when he was dying, asked "Father, why have you forsaken me?", only once (I believe) did Jesus ever indirectly say he was God himself, when he said "I AM", which is what God said his name was. However, God also wrestled Jacob in the flesh, so God can clearly become human if he so pleases.

 

 

 

I have plenty of opinions on Islam, but I'm afraid I'll just get banned for posting more. Apparently, it's some kind of rule of the internet that you have to accept what people say and not debate it (on a forum - where debates are encouraged...umm...) or else you will be silenced.

 

 

 

There are so many assumptions and opinions in your argument I'm not going to bother with a line-by-line refutation of EVERY wrong fact you have. Also, I dont want to turn this into a Christian vs. Islam debate. No religion is better. I love all Christians with all my heart as well as Jews. There is no doubt that Christianity is a great religion, and I'm not saying Islam is any better (like you are trying to say Christianity better).

 

 

 

I will leave you something to ponder: It is not what a man says to do or what writing he follows that defines him. It is, however, his actions that define him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FACT: There are more non-Arab Muslims than Arab Muslims.

 

 

 

Just for your information.

 

 

 

[hide]Facts on Muslims and Arabs (Two Terms that AREN'T Synonymous)

 

 

 

By DHinMI

 

 

 

With all the controversy over the editorial cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed, there's been quite a flurry of discussion in Blogostan about Muslims. Some of the discussion has been good (like Georgia10's backgrounder on the controversy here ), some not so good (like much of the discussion on the thread below Georgia10's piece). To be fair, while I've seen quite a few insensitive, ignorant and even offensive comments about Muslims and Islam, nothing I've seen on any liberal blogs has come even remotely close to the genocidal ravings about Arabs and/or Muslims you can see just about every day at Frei Republik or Little Genocidal Footsoldiers Little Green Footballs. But there's still a lot of ignorance and apparent bias seeping through in comments from generally insightful and well-informed people. So here are a few demographic facts about Muslims and Arabs that some may find surprising, and that knowing about will, I hope, elevate the conversations about the cartoon controversy.

 

 

 

First, Arab isn't synonymous with Muslim. Islam did arise out of the Arab bedouin society and culture of 8th century Arabia, and the Koran was written in and studied in Arabic, so the influence of Medieval Arab culture and society is important, just as nomadic Caananite culture and society of .a thousand years earlier is important in shaping all the monotheistic religions. But to equate Arab (which is a cultural, social, ethnic and linguist identification) with Muslim (which is a religious identification) is like using calling Christians Jews, because Jesus and most of his earliest followers were Jews.

 

 

 

Beyond the historical aspects of the different identifications, there are many non-Muslim Arabs, and far, far more non-Arab Muslims than there are Arabs of all faiths combined. There are approximately one billion Muslims, but only about 200 million of those Muslims are Arabs. In fact, of the countries with the largest Muslim populations, only Egypt is an Arab country (in millions, %=percentage of national population that's Muslim; figures calculated from country profiles in CIA Factbook:

 

 

 

1.Indonesia (212m, 88%)

 

2.India (140m, 13%)

 

3.China (133m, 1%) *

 

4.Pakistan (157m, 97%)

 

5.Bangladesh (119m, 83%)

 

6.Egypt (74m, 94%)

 

7.Turkey (69m, 99%)

 

8.Iran (66m, 98%)

 

9.Nigeria (64m, 50%)

 

10.Ethiopia (32m, 45%)

 

 

 

e laMany non-Arab countries have sizable Muslim percentages, including most of Africa. The Central Asian republics of the former Soviet Union are overwhelmingly Muslim, and together have about 50 million people. In Europe, several countries have large non-immigrant Muslim populations, including Albania (75%), Macedonia (30%), Russia (18%), Bulgaria (14%) and Serbia (14%). About 7% of France's population is Muslim, mostly immigrants from North Africa.

 

 

 

On the other side, while many Arab countries are close to 100% Muslim, it's not universal. 30% of Lebanese aren't Muslim. In Kuwait it's 11%, in Syria 10%, in Egypt it's 6%, in Jordan 5%, and 25% of the residents of the West Bank aren't Muslim. Other than Lebanon (with some Druze) and the West Bank (with a small percentage of Jewish settlers), almost all the non-Muslims in the Arab countries are Christians, mostly Eastern Rite Catholics or members of various Orthodox churches.

 

 

 

And in the United States, Arab and Muslim are far from synonymous. About two thirds of Arab-Americans are Christian. Less than half of American Muslims are immigrants; the largest percentage of American Muslims (about 48%) are African-Americans. And of them, followers of the Nation of Islam make up a small percentage. Of all American Muslims, only about 4-5% are with the Nation of Islam. Finally, about 7% of American Muslims are native-born Americans from other traditions who converted to Islam.

 

 

 

None of this is directly related to the controversy about the depictions of Mohammed and in the European press and the reaction to the depictions around the world. But I've seen lots of misconceptions and falsehoods tossed around about Muslims and Arabs, and I thought it was worth the effort to dispel some ignorance and give people some information with which they might make better sense of the world.

 

 

 

* Thanks to Cardinal for catching this error over at Daily Kos. The estimates I found on China were all over the place, from the low tens of millions to well over 100 million. For the sake of consistency, I chose to go with the CIA Factbook estimates, and the CIA estimates the percentage at 1-2%, not 10% as some other sources do. According to the CIA estimates, China's Muslims probably number around 20 million.

 

[/hide]

[Flamecaller]

Nice source on how most Muslim's aren't Arabs.

 

 

 

...Good thing I never said they were, huh? I honestly don't know why you keep pointing that out. I aid most Muslims live in MUSLIM NATIONS, which is absolutely true.

 

 

 

And nice debate. You point out my "flawed facts" by simply stating they are flawed. Not much of a man of your religion if you can't defend it.

 

 

 

But the simple fact is I'll let it slide because you can't defend it. Nothing I said about Islamic beliefs on Christianity was remotely inaccurate. But you'll continue to believe they are. Saying "Christianity is a great religion" is no excuse for being a person who would also say "But it is false and corrupted. Islam is the only true religion." which is false...Which was my point.

[superson]

Flamecaller, you cannot say if the statement "Islam is the only true religion" is a true or false. Facts do not involve ideas being better than other ideas, that is called an opinion, which everyone is entitled to having.

[Flamecaller]

Flamecaller, you cannot say if the statement "Islam is the only true religion" is a true or false. Facts do not involve ideas being better than other ideas, that is called an opinion, which everyone is entitled to having.

 

 

 

Yes, I can. According to Islam's own ideology, Islam cannot be true.

 

 

 

Look up some facts about it, you'll see why. I've stated a few...There are plenty more, but the biggest one is their claim that the Bible and the Torah are corrupted, when it's been proven they are not. Islam, however...Has no such proof, and the the Torah is thousands of years older than the Qu'ran, and the New Testament of the Bible is...500 or so?

 

 

 

If I really need to post all the facts (not opinions, facts.) then I will.

 

 

 

And really...Can you believe that the God of the Torah/Bible is the SAME God of the Qu'ran? That is what Muslim's believe, and reading the Bible and then reading the Qu'ran is like night and day. Come on, now.

[darkmage099]

And nice debate. You point out my "flawed facts" by simply stating they are flawed. Not much of a man of your religion if you can't defend it.

 

 

 

But the simple fact is I'll let it slide because you can't defend it. Nothing I said about Islamic beliefs on Christianity was remotely inaccurate. But you'll continue to believe they are. Saying "Christianity is a great religion" is no excuse for being a person who would also say "But it is false and corrupted. Islam is the only true religion." which is false...Which was my point.

 

 

 

*sigh* I'll do it.

 

 

 

Darkmage:

 

 

 

First off, I'd like to know how you figure most Muslims are not currently living in Muslim countries (which is what I said). If I had to make a guesstimate, I'd actually say there are more black Muslims than there are Arabs, but I'm not sure. But at any rate, I never said "Most Muslims are Arabs."

 

 

 

Before I say my next thing, I'd like to acknowledge the fact that you're not some psycho terrorist...And I know that. However, here is why killing in the name of Islam and killing in the name of Christianity are NOT the same, they are quite different:

 

It seems like you may think I, personally, am not a terrorist, but I believe in terrorism. That is false.

 

 

 

1) Christianity has an old and new testament. The old testament is the only one that talks about killing another for any reason. The new testament has no such talk. Why? Because Jesus came and atoned for the sins of man. We no longer are obligated to kill anyone for any reason, because all the offender has to do is ask for forgiveness (well, and actually mean it and not go off doing it again...) from Jesus, and their sins are cleansed.

 

Then why, I ask, is the Old Testament even part of the Bible and not rewritten?

 

 

 

Here is just a sample of the violence in the New Testament. I am NOT saying that there is NO violence in the Qu'ran but simply that there ARE violent passages in the New Testament.

 

Matthew:

 

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

 

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

 

 

 

Revelations

 

The martyrs just can't wait until everyone else is slaughtered. God gives them a white robe and tells them to wait until he's done with his killing spree. 6:10-11

 

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. "And all the fowls were filled with their flesh." 19:20-21

 

 

 

etc.

 

 

 

2) Islam has no such atonement that I am aware of. You do not ask Muhammed for forgiveness for your sins. You have no atonement, and hence sinners must be punished according to your book still. If it's in there, you should be doing it. If you're not, one could easily ask "Then how are you a Muslim?" and you wouldn't be able to answer. At best, you're a moderate Muslim who merely believes Allah is the creator and la-de-da and you worship him, but you basically don't follow everything the book says. I personally consider that a good thing, but yea.

 

We do not ask Muhammad for forgiveness. We ask GOD. We ask forgiveness from God and God alone. I don't see your point with you having Jesus and what not.

 

 

 

It's not like you believe the Bible verbatim. Does that mean you aren't Christian. At best, you're a moderate Christian who merely believes in God as the creator and la-de-da and you worship him and Jesus, but you basically don't follow everything the book says. I personally consider that a good thing, but yea.

 

 

 

3) So, when the Bible says "Stone adulterers" and you ask us why we do not follow that command, or use it as reference to Christianity being "violent", that can be argued and quickly put to rest by us explaining Jesus' atonement for our sins. We don't have to do those things. They're no longer valid. You, however, have no such atonement, so when I ask "Why do you not kill the Jews and Christians where you see them?" you can't say anything except "Because I'm not a killer." which doesn't change anything. Your book still says you're supposed to. There are no translation mess-ups or any of that crap. It clearly says it. Have you read the Qu'ran? It says a lot of wacky crap. One could argue the Bible does as well, but I've read them both in a completely unbiased manner and...Ehhh...Sorry, Islam is quite more wacky. :P

 

Most Muslims dont stone adulterers either...WE dont follow that because it's silly. It's wrong to commit it, but it's silly to stone them. They're no longer valid. Jesus has nothing to do with the traditions of the past fading away.

 

 

 

A MUSLIM KILL A CHRISTIAN OR JEW?? Are you kidding me? The Muslims love monotheistic according to the book. In the Umyyad and Abbasid times we levied less jizya on you because of your faith. Muslims don't fundamentally hate or want to kill Christians or Jews. Your book says wakky crap too? Why dont you follow it? It's silly, right? Judging by the way you speak of the Qu'ran I highly doubt you have read both the Bible and the Qu'ran. Where's your evidence that one is more "wacky" than the other.

 

 

 

Jesus died for the sins of us all, and your religion acknowledges him only as a mere "prophet" and then puts Mohammed above him, even though Mohammed is just a mere "prophet" according to your religion as well. Jesus was also a Jew, and Muslims claim to love Jesus for his work from God, but then will have no problems calling Jews "swine" and "apes". Hypocrites much? Maybe you personally don't do this, but even in your post I can tell you do not like Jews and Westerners in general by your mere astonishment that Jews are allowed to live in Israel. This is not Muslim land...Muslims therefore do not deserve to live there. Just because Muslims lived there once does not mean it is their land. I found it odd that you said "Jews left and Muslims moved BACK" as if Muslims were there before and the Jews drove them out...That is quite hilarious. You call me out as someone who puts too much faith in propaganda? Please...As if you are not guilty of that as well? My view on Islam may be a little warped due to the media (I don't watch Fox by the way, I watch CNN. Fox is for right-wing turdlettes. :P) but your view on things is warped just by being a Muslim. How is that different?

 

We put Muhammad's message above Jesus' because we think it was interpreted WRONG. That's right wrong. Do you know the date the Bible was written? Have you ever heard of the Council of Nicea? Yeah, you cant tell me there was nothing lost in translation. Who calls Jews swines because they are Jewish? NO, you're wrong. The Qu'ran specifically states to call Jews and Christians brothers. How can you tell I do not like Jews and Christians? I have no negative opinion on the religions, just the people who follow them. I am a Westerner. I was born in the West. How do I not like my best friends?

 

 

 

On to geography: Yes, Muslims were there FIRST. Ever heard of Palestine? It was its own independent Muslim nation until the British kicked them out and put all the Jews of Europe there. How would you feel if someone just came into your house and called it their own. Granted the Jews lived in that area before the Palestinians but they left. It was open land and the Muslims took over. Now the Jews want it back? How unfair is that....

 

 

 

And I can say exactly who will go to Heaven and who will not. I know. Why do you not know? It's quite clear...144,000 people from the 12 tribes of Israel will go to Heaven. BAM! There it is. Says so in the Bible. You, of course, believe the Torah/Bible is corrupted, even though we found the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1948 and they match perfectly with what we have today...And they're over 2,000 years old...Older than your entire religion...Keep in mind God himself said he'd preserve his word "forever and ever". If you believe God wrote all of these books, yours included, then why in the world are you worshiping from the wrong, false book? Just curious. Anyways, continuing on...144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel go to Heaven. Everyone else who accepted Jesus lives eternally in peace and happiness on Earth. Everyone else lives in eternal severance from God. Let me just say that I don't believe in Hell...I believe Hell is a metaphor for the pain of being separated from God for eternity. Seems like a just punishment instead of being morbid and saying everyone is going to burn in fire or whatever, something I fully believe God wouldn't do.

 

So it says in the Bible, a book I dont follow, I'm going to hell? LOL COUNCIL OF NICEA. How do you know that is what Jesus meant? I, of course, believe that the Bible and the Torah are not corrupt. I believe, in some aspects, that they are wrong but not corrupt. It is CLEAR as crystal that you have not read the Qu'ran.

 

 

 

I also believe something else that maybe no one else does...That the acceptance of Jesus can be metaphorical too. Your can say "I accept Jesus and love him with all my heart" all you want and it could mean nothing if you don't mean it, so why should it be assumed you HAVE to proclaim it and say it aloud? Is not living exactly how Jesus lived essentially "accepting" him? I don't know, maybe there's something I missed that says you have to invite Jesus over to dinner or something. *Shrug*

 

 

 

That's all I got to say.

 

 

 

If you guys consider this "OT-SPAMZ!!1" then create a topic about this and I'll be more than happy to post in it. However, I will not make one myself because I don't want to be "The idiot who started another religious topic that got locked because atheists don't know how to control themselves." :P

 

So do I accept Jesus as a Muslim or according to you am I going to hell?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a good point...Islam and Mormonism are kinda' the same...That being that they both came from Christianity and are both built upon a mountain of lies.

 

Wow, blatantly insulting my religion. Go you. Islam did not come from Christianity. It was influenced by Zoroastrianism, the primary faith in Persia, Christianity as well as Judaism.

 

 

 

I'll make it no secret that I don't believe in Islam one bit and I believe that anyone who is a Muslim either hasn't read the Bible, or is quite stupid and/or very misled. People who convert from Christianity to Islam, for example...Make no sense whatsoever. The Dead Sea Scrolls debunk Islam's claims in their entirety, since Islam is based on the principle that it is a further revelation from the God of the Torah/Bible, claiming that the former two are "corrupted" when the Dead Sea Scrolls clearly prove that they are not corrupted in any way.

 

Yay, according to you, I'm stupid. This is just further proof you have not read the entire Qu'ran. The former two are "corrupted" because it was written 300+ years after the death of Jesus! Yes, if it was written maybe 1 year or so after you would be correct. However, it was not so you're wrong.

 

 

 

I never used to believe in any religion. I thought they were all completely stupid, but once I started reading about Islam and what Christianity has to say about the end of the world, the anti-Christ, etc...I fully believe the Bible can be taken quite literally. When you see what's going on with Islam, and what the Bible says about the anti-Christ, for example...You'd have to be a fool to say "I see no connection here at all."

 

Bible, be taken literally? LOL, you should be in jail.

 

 

 

Still, Muslims can believe whatever they want. I just think they're wrong. Nay, I know they are. They'll try to say you're wrong by using silly examples like "God is eternal! God cannot be born nor die, therefore Jesus was not God!"...So? You forget that A) God can do whatever he pleases and B) Jesus wasn't necessarily God himself. That is an extra belief held by some Christians. I don't believe Jesus WAS God, I believe he was God's son and was divine by way of the Holy Spirit. Jesus clearly referred to God as his father MANY times in the Bible, and when he was dying, asked "Father, why have you forsaken me?", only once (I believe) did Jesus ever indirectly say he was God himself, when he said "I AM", which is what God said his name was. However, God also wrestled Jacob in the flesh, so God can clearly become human if he so pleases.

 

Okay since you're so SURE we're wrong. PROVE IT WITH COLD HARD FACTS. Jesus was god. Ever heard of the Holy Trinity? It's the basis for Christianity. That, right there, tells me you are not Christian. God = Jesus = holy spirit.

 

 

 

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

 

John 20:28: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

 

Titus 2:13: "while we wait for the blessed hopeÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã

[Flamecaller]

"lol irl" all you want. Doesn't change anything. You've completely ignored most of what I said and just went on with what you believe, so yea...whatever...Don't know why I'm even continuing this, but sure...

 

 

 

First point - I don't believe you support terrorism. I believe most Muslims do in some form or another. I'd say the portion of western Muslims that support it is...very small. However, the portion of eastern Muslims (where most Muslims are located) who support it or simply ignore it I'd imagine is higher than what you're presenting. If the President of Iran can say he wishes to bring death to Israel, wipe it off the map, and kill Jews...And the entire country cheers...It's kinda hard to believe that they're not in support of terrorism. Still I acknowledge people like you, who are moderate, and not terrorists. Good on you.

 

 

 

Second point - Why was the Old Testament not rewritten or done away with if things in it are no longer needed? Clearly you're not listening to what I'm saying...God said he will preserve his word in the Torah and Bible FOREVER AND EVER. You can't get rid of them. The words themselves are protected by God. WHICH is why nothing in the Bible can be "false" as your religion says it is (and it does...).

 

 

 

Your sample of violence from the New Testament was quite laughable, considering none of it had anything to do with advocating human-on-human violence - something that the Qu'ran does. Oh noes...Demon-pigs running off cliffs and Jesus saying most people will go to Hell! How...horrible...? By the way, nice mis-quote of Jesus by the way, trying to make him sound like a bad dude...What he actually said was that it was hard to get into Heaven...And it is. I fully believe most people who call themselves "Christians" today will not get into Heaven, and that is a sad fact and something that has kept me from believing in religion...It is clear man cannot handle it, because even the most righteous (considered that by others, anyways...) Christian these days is a a bigger sinner than most people. These people will not go to Heaven, and they're not fooling God by saying they will. Most Christians (and Muslims, this is how extremism is built...) will pick one thing out of the Bible/Qu'ran and live it and beat it to death, even if it completely contradicts something else in the book. In order to follow a religion properly...You have to do everything the book says the best you can. Moderates don't even try living most of it.

 

 

 

And why can't I believe the Bible verbatim? The evolutionists say the Flood is impossible? Crap like that? That can be summed up with a big "So freakin' what?" and a "God can do whatever he wants."...Is it a cop-out to say that? Sure, but it's also true. I've shied away from evolution and atheism because those people are getting infinitely more annoying with each passing day with their attempts at disproving religions of all kinds and trying to convert everyone to a new religion...Evolution. No difference really, evolutionists just get more "Holy Land"...The entire Earth. :P

 

 

 

Anyways...You say Muslims love Jews and Christians, I find this hilarious. Perhaps you do, and that's cool. Again, good on you...but your religion and most of its followers aren't so rosie-cheeked about it.

 

 

 

"Many a generation We destroyed ... and created after them another generation.--6:6" - referring to Jews.

 

 

 

"Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6" - Very nice.

 

 

 

"Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61" - La-de-daaaa...

 

 

 

"Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66" - Sweet.

 

 

"If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85" - Special one, just for you.

 

 

 

"Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96" - O RLY?!

 

 

 

"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119 - Mmm.

 

 

 

"Disbelievers are losers. 2:121" - Hm. Losers? Is that seriously, like...An ancient word? Holy crap.

 

 

 

"Disbelievers will be deaf, dumb, and blind. 2:171" - News to me.

 

 

 

"Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178" - Here comes the violence...

 

 

 

"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2" - Is this enough, or need I go on? There are over 500 of these...I can keep going...I will...Okay, I am...

 

 

 

"Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193" - Sooo...Take over the world and give us no choice? Okay, cool.

 

 

 

"War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216" - Sound like the play ground tough guy to me.

 

 

 

"Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257" - But if we say the same about you, we're "hateful".

 

 

 

"Allah loveth not the disbelievers. 3:32" - Jesus loves all. Seems what you consider a mere man is above your God.

 

 

 

"Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118" - Nice advice, but Christians (good ones, anyways) love you more than they love themselves. They don't want your ruin, they want your salvation.

 

 

 

"Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims. 4:51" - But bowing down to Mecca 5 times a day isn't idolatry at all... :-s

 

 

 

"Those who refuse to follow Muhammad, follow false gods and are deceived by Satan. 4:60" - It's funny that Satan will even insult himself in order to deceive you.

 

 

 

"If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91" - Guess I could let that one slide...Sounds kinda' like self-defense.

 

 

 

"For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1" - BAWWWW!

 

 

 

"Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33" - O RLY?!

 

 

 

Okay, I'll stop now...I'm only on like #70 of over 500, and I skipped most of them because almost every single one is "unbelievers will have a very bad punishment" over and over and over. Now it's your turn to say "Those are all out of context." and for me to dismiss you as a fool.

 

 

 

Next point - You think the Bible is wrong because it was written a few generations after Jesus? LAWLZ! The Qu'ran cites Jesus several times as if Muhammed and he were best buddies...But Muhammed came even after the Bible was written...How is yours ANY more credible? Hilarious.

 

 

 

Next point - Muslims were not in Israel first. You're hilarious. The Jews have been there for thousands of years, and Muslims drove them out. Or are you saying the Torah was written and took place in modern-day Britain? Lol. Again, hilarious. Jews were there before ANYONE, period, and Muslims took it. Jews were given their land back, Muslims attacked the Jews, the Muslims LOST and the Jews took MORE of their land and the UN ordered the Jews to give it back - which they did. By the way, this fulfilled a Biblical prophecy and the Muslims, to this day, cannot over-run Israel. And they never will.

 

 

 

Next point - Just because you don't follow the Bible doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you. ;) And I don't believe you're going to go to some ever-lasting feiry Hell, dude. I believe if anything, you'll be severed from God forever. Indeed, I believe Islam is a religion invented by Satan. The above quotes further this. What does Satan hate more than anything? God. What is a good way to get to God? Killing God's beloved Jews and Christians. Satan hates humans because God loves us...What's another good way to make God angry? Making one of his most beautiful creations - the female, cover her entire body so that she may not be seen in all her splendor. Just sayin'...These are mere coincidences to you, or what? Thought of that last one myself too! Didn't even read it anywhere!

 

 

 

As a Muslim, it is your obligation to read both the Bible and Qu'ran and decide which is the true religion. If you read the whole Bible with an open mind (you're likely not capable as you're already a Muslim, however...) you'll easily see which is.

 

 

 

next point - I should be in jail because I said the Bible can be taken "quite literally"? Nice one. Your true nature of oppression shows, doesn't it? I'm not even allowed to have an opinion now! Hmm. I am aware a lot of the Bible is metaphor...That's why I said "quite literally" and not "completely literally".

 

 

 

Next point - I've already proved you're wrong with facts. You fail to see them for whatever reason (likely a closed mind due to already being a Muslim)

 

 

 

Next point - Yes, my opinions are illogical hate because they're against your religion. :roll: Whatever. If I think your religion is a load of BS, I'm free to say so. I've also clearly stated that doesn't mean I think you're a bad person. I think your religion is bad.

 

 

 

That is all.

[jak722]

TL;DR

 

 

 

Less talk on religion - More talk on Canadian nukes!

[fakeitormakeit]

Ah yes, but we can't have religious extremists with nuclear weapons can we?

 

 

 

*Glances at Ultra Rightwing Americain Christians.*

 

 

 

:roll:

 

 

 

Even the most extreme Christian knows you can't kill a person. And before anyone calls me out on abortion fire-bombings and whatnot...Those people are not Christians. They ceased to be Christians once the anti-abortion agenda over-rode their love for God.

 

 

 

The most extreme Muslim, however...Considers themselves obligated to kill people. Namely Americans, Jews, and Zionists. Oh, and probably gay people. Just 'cause.

 

 

 

He's hit the nail on the head.

 

 

 

Plus any Christian who does any type of act of terrorism or violence even if you say it in the name of a good cause (like anti-abortion), I scoff, God>violence to get people to agree with you.

 

 

 

And by now, isn't a thread like this shreaded to bits by the hole finders?

[cryztalwing]

Back in 2005 it was reported that Halliburton -- the oil services company once headed by Vice President Cheney -- sold an Iranian oil development company key components for a nuclear reactor, say Halliburton sources with intimate knowledge into both companies' business dealings.

 

 

 

Halliburton was secretly working at the time with one of Iran 's top nuclear program officials on natural gas related projects and sold the components in April to the official's oil development company, the sources said.

 

 

 

so, Cheney and Bush want war with Iran becuse of it's nucelar program, even thow Halliburton sold them components for a nuclear reactor. Than there's Rockefeller, who want's complet control over Iran's oil, so he be able keep it from being drilled, and rise oil price's even more. Up to $200-300 per barrow. Or even up to $1,000 per barrow...... #-o

[BlueTear]

To answer the originial question... My gut instict is that nuclear profileration is a Bad Thing. The more common they become, the more likely it is that they'll be aquired by individuals severly lacking in the sanity department, or used in general. And Iran specifically, is not the most stable of nations out there - "exporting the islamic revolution" remains a generally quite scary concept to the neighbouring states in the region. Mutual Assured Destruction or not, Iran isn't particularly trustworthy when it comes to nukes, in some cases less so than North Korea (hey, he's mad, but he's not to succumb to religious fanaticism).

 

 

 

... on the other hand, a civilian nuclear programme lessens dependance on oil, which is both in the interest of just about every sane nation on the planet as well for global environmental issues. In my opinion, the likelyhood of Iran going for just civilian nuclear power is fairly low all things considered - the uproar over this easily opens for a bit of political powerplaying in which they develop a nuclear weapons program in order to defend themselves against the "obviously hostile west", but at the same time, I don't think it's right to deny them civilian nuclear power.

 

 

 

When it comes to Iran, I really think that if they can do it, there's not much of a choice open for everyone else; They will do it.

[Flamecaller]

Back in 2005 it was reported that Halliburton -- the oil services company once headed by Vice President Cheney -- sold an Iranian oil development company key components for a nuclear reactor, say Halliburton sources with intimate knowledge into both companies' business dealings.

 

 

 

Halliburton was secretly working at the time with one of Iran 's top nuclear program officials on natural gas related projects and sold the components in April to the official's oil development company, the sources said.

 

 

 

so, Cheney and Bush want war with Iran becuse of it's nucelar program, even thow Halliburton sold them components for a nuclear reactor. Than there's Rockefeller, who want's complet control over Iran's oil, so he be able keep it from being drilled, and rise oil price's even more. Up to $200-300 per barrow. Or even up to $1,000 per barrow...... #-o

 

 

 

$150 per barrel would ruin the entire Earth's economy and plunge us all into a world war, let alone two or three hundred...A thousand is just out of the question.

[cryztalwing]

The CFR has said that oil will go up $200 per barrel. Guest who is the Honorary Chairman of the CFR? David Rockefeller....

 

 

 

 

 

[hide]Richard Haass the President of the Council on Foreign Relations and Bilderberg luminary was recently interviewed by Katie Couric on the situation with Iran. During the interview, Haass predicted that the crisis over IranÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s nuclear program could come to a head within the next few months and that war with Iran would result in oil prices rising to $200 a barrel. Haass also made it clear that sanctions would not be effective in changing IranÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s stance on their nuclear program and that there was a real possibility of a U.S. military strike on Iran using aircraft and cruise missiles.

 

 

 

When Couric specifically asked Haass if he thought we would see a war with Iran, he responded.

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅI donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t think we are talking about invasion, the U.S. doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t have ground troops. There could be a military strike using aircraft and cruise missiles, but if you ask me over the next year or two years can I imagine the U.S. and Iran moving to conflict? The short answer is yes. Is it definite? Obviously not, but is it a real possibility; for sure.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[Hydraides]

I am finding this thread extremely interesting

 

 

 

Tbh I don't see how some people on this forum can write essays for a thread so I'll make this short and snappy

 

 

 

I don't think Iran will nuke anyone and Why shouldn't Iran have nuclear weapons

 

 

 

Russia and China have been supplying to Iran...I do have a source! lolz

 

 

 

Anyway I Don't know much on this but don't Israel's hate Iranians?

 

 

 

As Ginger mentioned before, Half of Israels popn is Russian, So one simple statement/question :- Why does Russia support Iran more than it does America :-k ?

[Lenin64]

Oh noes! Not another oil-rich Middle-Eastern country armed with WMDs! :ohnoes:

 

You mean "WMDs", not WMDs :D

[Unoalexi]

Ah yes, but we can't have religious extremists with nuclear weapons can we?

 

 

 

*Glances at Ultra Rightwing Americain Christians.*

 

 

 

:roll:

 

 

 

Even the most extreme Christian knows you can't kill a person.

 

 

 

The most extreme Muslim, however...Considers themselves obligated to kill people. Namely Americans, Jews, and Zionists. Oh, and probably gay people. Just 'cause.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*points at Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptists*

 

 

 

I'm sure these people won't harm a fly. :roll:

 

 

 

"Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118" - Nice advice, but Christians (good ones, anyways) love you more than they love themselves. They don't want your ruin, they want your salvation.

 

 

 

Yet, they preach about surrounding yourselves with good, Christian friends because all others are deluded 'secular humanists'.

 

 

 

 

 

Why shouldn't a sovereign nation own nuclear weapons no matter what flag they fly under? I really don't understand why we the Western Hemisphere Good Old Boy's Club has the right to tell any other nation or group of nations that they aren't allowed to have access to the exact same weapons we have for the past 62 years. Not only did America create nuclear weapons, but they used them. Twice. And neither use was directed towards a legitimate military goal. In fact, America delayed the Japanese surrender and accelerated its own nuclear destruction of Nagasaki. They even chose previously undamaged centers of human habitation so we could have 'virgin' targets for a proper Bomb Damage Assessment. And neither of those cities had a meaningful military presence.

 

 

 

1+ -.-

 

 

 

Why does Russia support Iran more than it does America

 

In case you haven't noticed, Russia really doesn't like America much, and vice versa. Even after the Cold War..

[cryztalwing]

It turns out that Tony Blair privately conceded two weeks before the Iraq war that Saddam Hussein did not have any usable weapons of mass destruction, Robin Cook, the former foreign secretary, reveals today.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e18676.htm