Is God real post your thoughts!

[Shinjula]

Just noticed this, and thought, ooh something actually worth debating

 

This thread makes me laugh. You guys are all contradictingeach other. Some say you make a theory then find evidence, others say you fin evidence then make theories. You guys say atheism is unsure of God, then some say it's disbelief of a God. Make up your minds. And besides, no one is debating the points I put up. And most of you don't even know what you're saying, you say if I can't fin evidence to disporve the Oort cloud, then it must exist. Makes sense, I guess? Let's rephrase that: If I can't find evidence to disprove God, then he must exist.

 

I would certianly go with the definition of atheism as a believe that there isnt a god and agnostisim being unsure, but really is it that surprising that people might have different understanding of the word? But I think the two definitions ive made are the commonly accepted ones so id suggest at least for the sake of debate you go with those. (It doesnt really matter which ones we use as lng as we're all agree otherwise its just a semantic argument and those are mostly boring)

 

 

 

As for the oort cloud, I would agree the jury is still out, most scientists think its a good explanation for where comets might come from, but as we've not observed it yet, its clearly in the unknown camp.

 

This does seem to represent something I've witnessed a lot in religion versus science debates. Religious people tend to look at science as thought it should hold all the answers and ive often seen them argue that any gap in science's knowledge implies that science is wrong, (e.g. formation of life on earth, big bang). This is a common mistake, as i see it. Science never intends to answer every question, the universe is simply too big for that to happen. What it does is try and find evidence to show somethings are happening and what mechanisms can underlie them. Sometimes (such as the laws of motion) we get such good evidence that we can use these observations to predict future events. but sometimes knowledge is overturned because new data comes in which reveals (like the relativistic laws of motion) that there are new facets to be added to our understanding, sometimes new information just adds more detail to an existing theory.

 

Any true scientist would not claim that the oort cloud is a certainty, but its the best explanation we've got that fits the facts. The existence of comets otherwise cant be explained easily in a rational explanation, although an alternative may exist. The problem is that you are leaving aside what you are thinking is your preferred alternative, that of the bible, it is far easier to assume an oort cloud than the majority of stuff thats in the bible at least from a scientific standpoint, because in order to accept the bible we have to assume that science has no sway in the universe, using the sort of methods science does, (looking and trying to understand things) is very contrary to the message which comes across in the bible (which is more about doing what god tells you to, never mind the reasons)

[Ginger_Warrior]

And NoMoreDead, GW says atheism is unsure

 

I did?

 

 

 

Even if I did, I hardly speak for all non-believers in the world.

[tryto]

There's atheists who don't use science at all. I'd say they're probably few and far in between, but I'm sure there's some. Painting all atheists with the same brush is ludicrous; the only requirement is to agree with the statement: "I do not believe that God exists". Nothing more.

 

 

 

Sure, science is a useful tool, and I'm personally beholden to it, but generalizing and stereotyping gets you no where.

 

There were atheists far before the advent of science.

[KnightLite]

I honestly don't believe in god one bit. People who do believe in god are 100% on faith, considering there is no hard evidence to support any of it. Kids are raised from day 1 to go to church every day, and believe in god, so it's instilled in them at a very young age. I'd be willing to bet that if religion wasn't introduced to a person until they reached the age of 18, it would die out completely.

 

 

 

Imagine.. you're 18 years old and have lived a normal life. Now, somebody tells you that there's a mysterious force out there called god. He see's and hear's all that goes on, and knows what everybody is thinking. He knows exactly what is going to happen for the rest of all eternity, and anything I do was planned by him. I'd tell that person he was a crackpot.

 

 

 

Look around people. it's just you. There's no supernatural force occuring in or around you. Take away your conscience effort of faith, and you're left with exactly what there is, nothing.

 

Another thing that gets me, is when people turn religious right after something terrible has occured in their life. Somebody loses a loved one, or material wealth, and have nobody to turn to. Church fanatics swoop right on down with open arms and convert them on the spot. It's like.... really? Do you really believe in what they're selling you, or do you just need the support in your desparate time?

 

 

 

What about all the people in South America and Africa? A lot of these people have probably never heard of Christianity. Does that make them terrible people? Wouldn't it be god's fault that Christianity never crossed paths with them? Some of these people live great lives, and are hard working and good people. Yet they're sentenced for an eternal afterlife in hell? A man that rapes adolescent girls simply asks for forgiveness, and he's admitted open-hearted into Heaven? There are so many gaping flaws with all religions, that it's really shocking to see how popular it is. Whenever I've seen a religious individual presented with a religious question, it's like an instant robot spitting out crap that was heard in church, which is mostly irrelavant to the question.

 

 

 

What about all the people born before Jesus Christ? Are there souls damned simply because of a chronological error in God's masterplan? Are all Jews going to hell, because their parents raised them to believe what they believe? Do you kids reading these questions that don't have answers, think that anybody religious does have the answers? You can ask your parents, and they'll just give you some BS answer, which will slowly drive itself away from the initial question, and conclude by talking about why keeping faith is important. I had a girlfriend that claimed it was the fault of all the non-religious people for not finding God in their lives. O RLY? Everything you believe is because of what somebody else has told you. Nobody finds God. It's like a wide-spread rumor, with people hopping on the bandwagon. It's so shocking to believe people can be so gullible with something so ridiculous. There is absolutely no hard proof that God Exists. Also. Stop telling me that "God will again come to the earth". -When? "I don't know, but it says so in the Bible!" -Ok....? Well when he comes and presents himself, I'll listen to what he has to say. Then I'll make my decision if I need him in my life or not.

 

 

 

I live a very good life. I abide by the rules, and I hold high self respect for myself as well as others. I haven't gone to church in years, and yet I still continue to lead a fulfilling life. God has never been a part of it. I make my own decisions which play out my own life. God doesn't have a plan for me, nor does he exist. Last year while pitching for my college baseball team, I got a shoulder injury which took me out for the season. As a result, I worked my [wagon] off all spring and summer to get in the best shape of my life for this upcoming season. Was that god's doing? No, I didn't stretch out well enough, causing my me to tear a ligament in my shoulder in the cold weather. I geared myself up mentally and have trained rigorously ever since to give myself the best chance to move on to the next level.

 

 

 

I could go on a rant for hours, but I'd rather see what you religious fanatics say to each individual peice of it. Go ahead and break up my rant into little tiny quotes and argue it. Pick out the little things you might be able to argue, but I'll only point out the rest of it that you can't argue.

[Lenticular_J]

I'm not trying to rebut you or anything, I just feel that dismissing religion like it was a disease is very ignorant. I'll give you a comparison. (You also have a few clerical errors in references to Jesus and whatnot, but I'll let others who like debating this handle that).

 

 

 

Your parents probably love and care about you, correct? Your family likes you? Your friends, they don't hate you, I presume? You probably wouldn't feel too good if you thought these things were wrong, or if people constantly pestered you and protested you, screaming that your mother doesn't love you; you have no proof.

 

 

 

But, to your being raised without religion - is that just religion being erased completely? Because in that situation, obviously religion would be gone. So the only way is tat they're being shielded from religion. What if, sometime, they went into a church after being protected all this time - I'm not saying filled with hate for religion, just never allowed to know about it - they would probably find it intriguing, at the very least.

 

 

 

Now, your criticism of people using religion in a desperate time also annoys me. What's wrong with that? If you were to lose a loved one, would you not fall back upon your other loved ones?

 

 

 

But, hey, it's good you've lived and keep living a good life. Keep it up.

[Shinjula]

I honestly don't believe in god one bit. People who do believe in god are 100% on faith, considering there is no hard evidence to support any of it. Kids are raised from day 1 to go to church every day, and believe in god, so it's instilled in them at a very young age. I'd be willing to bet that if religion wasn't introduced to a person until they reached the age of 18, it would die out completely.

 

well I was an agnostic until the age of 27, when i started having religeous experiences, and whilst its resulted in me being a lot more intersted in being aware that what i believe may be only one of a number of possible explanations, it is something in my life thats not 100% faith, its based on real experiences in my life, sure they dont prove it to anyone else but me, but they do tell me that *something* is going on,and its up to me to discover what. I have few concrete ideas about the actual nature of reality, I'm certainly not a christian or follower of any organised religeon, but i do believe in god.

[Obtaurian]

 

 

 

Your parents probably love and care about you, correct? Your family likes you? Your friends, they don't hate you, I presume? You probably wouldn't feel too good if you thought these things were wrong, or if people constantly pestered you and protested you, screaming that your mother doesn't love you; you have no proof.

 

 

 

 

I think the difference is that while your mother can't prove that she loves you, she can try and show you. She can make you chicken soup when you're sick, bake you a cake on your birthday, or give you that loan you need to buy your first house.

 

 

 

God, on the other hand, does not make chicken soup.

[Lenticular_J]

Here's some chicken soup from God:

 

Ok, if God is not real can someone explain this for me.

 

 

 

I have a friend who broke his foot last weekend, an went to the hosptial. After getting x-rays he found out that he had broken it (before then he was unsure) the doctor decide to take a few more x-rays, and my friend's foot was completely healed and he could walk normally. Earlier that day I saw him and he had to wait in a lounge for an hour for a frien to come with some crotches so he could walk. He is a devoted christian.

 

 

 

Another friend once broke his collarbone and the x-rays showed up as a brake, the next day his collarbone looked fine in the x-rays. He is also a evoted christian.

 

 

 

Plus, I was really asking him to prove his mother loves him. I don't like using that to explain, but it is similar.

[Obtaurian]

Here's some chicken soup from God:

 

Ok, if God is not real can someone explain this for me.

 

 

 

I have a friend who broke his foot last weekend, an went to the hosptial. After getting x-rays he found out that he had broken it (before then he was unsure) the doctor decide to take a few more x-rays, and my friend's foot was completely healed and he could walk normally. Earlier that day I saw him and he had to wait in a lounge for an hour for a frien to come with some crotches so he could walk. He is a devoted christian.

 

 

 

Another friend once broke his collarbone and the x-rays showed up as a brake, the next day his collarbone looked fine in the x-rays. He is also a evoted christian.

 

 

 

Plus, I was really asking him to prove his mother loves him. I don't like using that to explain, but it is similar.

 

 

 

My point was that your mother can literally walk into your room with delicious soup, and you can see her do it. Your example is FAITH that God helped that guy, but no one actually saw the big man.

 

 

 

Corporeal, non-corporeal, etc. See what I mean?

[Lenticular_J]

And how do you know your mother is doing this out of love? Perhaps she's putting poison in your delicious soup, and intends to withdraw the antidote whenever she requires you.

[raven_gaurd0]

Man, it's been a hella long time since I posted here.

 

 

 

I honestly don't know why it hasn't been shut down, either. Religion is such an incredibly touchy topic. I know I've gotten worked up into an angry enough fervor here to break down into babbling, unintelligent insults. Perhaps ye all have better constitutions than me, yes?

 

 

 

Regardless.

 

 

 

Atheists and Men of Faith (to be broad) have agreed to disagree. The day that a TRUE atheist and a TRUE Man of Faith agree completely, something has gone very, very wrong.

 

 

 

So.

 

 

 

I noticed that this thread is very...close-minded, shall we say. It is very, very open compared to the rest of society, but all I see is Christianity v. Atheism. What about Muslims? What about Jewish people? Why aren't there any attacks towards either of those groups? Stop being P(olitically)C(orrect) and at least encompass all these religions in your anti-God posts. Because, note, all three of these major world religions believe in the same God.

 

 

 

My own personal arguments are of little consequence, and therefore I will not divulge. However, I beg that you all try to be a bit more universal when attacking religion so generally.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

-Raven

[Saru Inc]

Man, it's been a hella long time since I posted here.

 

 

 

I honestly don't know why it hasn't been shut down, either. Religion is such an incredibly touchy topic. I know I've gotten worked up into an angry enough fervor here to break down into babbling, unintelligent insults. Perhaps ye all have better constitutions than me, yes?

 

 

 

Regardless.

 

 

 

Atheists and Men of Faith (to be broad) have agreed to disagree. The day that a TRUE atheist and a TRUE Man of Faith agree completely, something has gone very, very wrong.

 

 

 

So.

 

 

 

I noticed that this thread is very...close-minded, shall we say. It is very, very open compared to the rest of society, but all I see is Christianity v. Atheism. What about Muslims? What about Jewish people? Why aren't there any attacks towards either of those groups? Stop being P(olitically)C(orrect) and at least encompass all these religions in your anti-God posts. Because, note, all three of these major world religions believe in the same God.

 

 

 

My own personal arguments are of little consequence, and therefore I will not divulge. However, I beg that you all try to be a bit more universal when attacking religion so generally.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

-Raven

 

 

 

 

 

Eh I must say, technically they do, but in a way, they don't. As in yes, Jews also belive Jesus existed, along with Christians, but they don't believe he was the Son of God, same with Muslims.

 

 

 

Now I has the 2000th post. Not that I've contributed much to this thread. :P

 

 

 

Saru, then those Atheists are hypocrites. The whole point Atheism is that giving a conclusion (that God exists) without facts, or giving a conclusion and then making implicit references to the world around us is a cack-handed way of justifying something, and runs counter to the scientific method.

 

 

 

Established, verifiable facts should be used to make a conclusion in that order. That's the problem I personally have with religion. The conclusion that God exists has been made with no evidence, and there's been no evidence since the Bible publication that I would define as evidence. That's not denial, that's logic.

 

 

 

That and the other problem: the scientific method only works with objectivity. Much of the reasoning given for the existence of God over the past few pages has been purely subjective.

 

 

 

 

 

Found it, finally. (Page 100)

 

And NoMoreDead, I think there is such thing as Agnosticism, I was just posting what Atheists said. :P I just realized, also, what is Richard Dawkins but a fundamentalist for Atheism? It would be ridiculous to not look at his information, simply because he's a fundamentalist.

[Igor]

Not trying to be insensitive or anything, i just don't see any proof that God is real. It started getting sort of suspicious when no miracles happened after like 200 BC.

 

 

 

Trust me, i would love to be proven wrong. ;)

[Saru Inc]

Well here's the thing, miracles happen everyday, but they may not be put on the news, so noi one knows about them. Also, wasn't Jesus alive after 200 BC?

[raven_gaurd0]

Well here's the thing, miracles happen everyday, but they may not be put on the news, so noi one knows about them. Also, wasn't Jesus alive after 200 BC?

 

 

 

Nay, Jesus died 33 AD, roughly.

 

 

 

All ordained saints of the Christian church have preformed miracles on their behalf in the name of the Lord, so yes, miracles technically happen.

 

 

 

Well, would you look at that. I'm getting into Christianity strictly. I feel like a hypocrite.

 

 

 

I reckon I'll read the Qu'ran one day and get back to you.

 

 

 

The validity of these miracles, though, are as debatable and contestable as God himself, so there is no use bringing them up, though.

[Saru Inc]

I can understand that, but there are some that happen everyday. I mean, some could be labeled as coincidence, but some can't.

[raven_gaurd0]

Right you are, and some of them can be claimed as fiction as well. Which is where it comes all back down to...faith.

 

 

 

Really, this entire thread is all about whether or not you have faith. You have it, you are probably religious. You don't, you're probably atheistic / agnostic.

 

 

 

Trying to convince people either way is a lot like trying to make a coconut turn into a strawberry. It might happen, but then again, you should probably be doing something more productive.

[Saru Inc]

Oh, I know. I mainly post on this thread to past the time; I know full well I won't change anyone's mind. But I still like to hear other people's opinions.

[Lenticular_J]

The Koran's more involved with laws and rules and guidelines rather than parables and morals.

 

 

 

Really interesting reading, though. You know how Biblical quotes are used very, very frequently? It's considered idiotic by both Sunnis and Shi'ites to use quotes from the Koran unless you're a priest or other religious official. Intriguing.

[Flyingjj]

The Koran's more involved with laws and rules and guidelines rather than parables and morals.

 

 

 

Really interesting reading, though. You know how Biblical quotes are used very, very frequently? It's considered idiotic by both Sunnis and Shi'ites to use quotes from the Koran unless you're a priest or other religious official. Intriguing.

 

Depends on how conservative of a Muslim you are.

 

I very recently gained a new respect for Islam, especially after I found out how accepting they are of Christianity and Judaism.

[Lenticular_J]

Of course, but in the mainly Islamic world around the Middle East and such, it's difficult to find liberal Muslims.

[Saru Inc]

The Koran's more involved with laws and rules and guidelines rather than parables and morals.

 

 

 

Really interesting reading, though. You know how Biblical quotes are used very, very frequently? It's considered idiotic by both Sunnis and Shi'ites to use quotes from the Koran unless you're a priest or other religious official. Intriguing.

 

Depends on how conservative of a Muslim you are.

 

I very recently gained a new respect for Islam, especially after I found out how accepting they are of Christianity and Judaism.

 

 

 

 

 

Lol.

 

 

 

Lol.

 

 

 

Sorry, I had to say it again.

 

 

 

http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/comparison.html

 

 

 

This was pretty good, and it seemed unbiased.

 

 

 

[hide=]In Islam, on the other hand, the Qur'an is considered the

 

"unmediated" word of God. In other word, Islam stresses very

 

strongly that in receiving his revelation Muhammad was illiterate--

 

and hence completely passive. He simply recited what was put into

 

his mouth, without any input of his own. ("Qur'an" means

 

"recitation.") The Qur'an -- which is seen as eternally existing

 

in heaven -- simply descended (another name for the Qur'an is 'at-

 

tanzil', "that which descended") and was expressed through Muhammad

 

as a passive instrument of revelation. Anyone familiar with

 

modern critical linguistic theory would have to question such a

 

view. According to such theory, 'all' communication is mediated;

 

as soon as a thought is put into words, it is mediated. The very

 

fact that a thought is put into words means that it is "processed"

 

and passed through a human lens, so to speak. The whole purpose of

 

revelation is for God, whose thoughts are so far above ours, to

 

mediate his communication to us through human language. God does

 

not think in human language; to say so is to limit his omniscience,

 

which is far beyond the constraints of human language! Thus

 

Christians must call the Islamic view of "unmediated revelation"

 

into question on both linguistic and theological grounds.[/hide]

 

 

 

http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv4.html

 

 

 

http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/jihad.htm

[Quoi_Tu]

Off-discussion, but I thought I'd slip this in here:

 

[hide=NY Times]GRAPEVINE, Tex. And on the seventh day, there was no rest for married couples. A week after the Rev. Ed Young challenged husbands and wives among his flock of 20,000 to strengthen their unions through Seven Days of Sex, his advice was keep it going.

 

 

 

Mr. Young, an author, a television host and the pastor of the evangelical Fellowship Church, issued his call for a week of congregational copulation among married couples on Nov. 16, while pacing in front of a large bed. Sometimes he reclined on the paisley coverlet while flipping through a Bible, emphasizing his point that it is time for the church to put God back in the bed.

 

 

 

Today were beginning this sexperiment, seven days of sex, he said, with his characteristic mix of humor, showmanship and Scripture. How to move from whining about the economy to whoopee!

 

 

 

On Sunday parishioners at the Grapevine branch watched a prerecorded sermon from Mr. Young and his wife, Lisa, on jumbo screens over a candlelit stage. I know theres been a lot of love going around this week, among the married couples, one of the church musicians said, strumming on a guitar before a crowd of about 3,000.

 

 

 

Mrs. Young, dressed in knee-high black boots and jeans, said that after a week of having sex every day, or close to it, some of us are smiling. For others grappling with infidelities, addictions to pornography or other bitter hurts, theres been some pain; hopefully theres been some forgiveness, too.

 

 

 

Mr. Young advised the couples to keep on doing what youve been doing this week. We should try to double up the amount of intimacy we have in marriage. And when I say intimacy, I dont mean holding hands in the park or a back rub.

 

 

 

Mr. Young, known simply as Ed to his parishioners, and his wife, both 47, have been married for 26 years and have four children, including twins. They have firsthand experience with some of the barriers to an intimate sex life in marriage, including careers, exhaustion, outside commitments, and kids, a word that Mr. Young told church members stands for keeping intimacy at a distance successfully.

 

 

 

But if you make the time to have sex, it will bring you closer to your spouse and to God, he has said. You will perform better at work, leave a loving legacy for your children to follow and may even prevent an extramarital affair.

 

 

 

If youve said, I do, do it, he said. As for single people, I dont know, try eating chocolate cake, he said.

 

 

 

The sex-starved marriage has been the topic of at least two recent books, 365 Nights and Just Do It. But Mr. Youngs call from the pulpit gave the discussion an added charge.

 

 

 

It should not, in his view. This is not a gimmick or a publicity stunt, Mr. Young says. Just look at the sensuousness of the Song of Solomon, or Genesis: two shall become one flesh, or Corinthians: do not deprive each other of sexual relations.

 

 

 

For some reason the church has not talked about it, but we need to, he said, speaking by telephone Friday night on his way to South Africa for a mission trip. There is no shame in marital sex, he added, God thought it up, it was his idea.

 

 

 

Those who attend Fellowships location here or one of several satellite churches in the Dallas area and one in Miami are used to Mr. Youngs provocative style. (The real f word in the marital boudoir, he says, is forgiveness.) But the sex challenge was a bit much for some of his church members, who sat with arms crossed in uncomfortable silence, he recalls, while many in the audience gave him an enthusiastic applause.

 

 

 

One parishioner, Rob Hulsey, 25, said his Baptist relatives raised their eyebrows about it, but he summed up the reaction of many husbands at Fellowship Church when he first heard about the sex challenge Yay!

 

 

 

A week later, he and his wife, who are expecting a baby and have two older children, could not stop holding hands during the sermon. His wife, Madeline Hulsey, 32, said she was just as thrilled to spend a week focusing on her husband. Usually, we start to kiss, and its knock knock knock, Mom! she said.

 

 

 

Others found that, like smiling when you are not particularly happy, having sex when they did not feel like it improved their mood. Just eight months into their marriage, Amy and Cody Waddell had not been very amorous since Cody admitted he had had an affair.

 

 

 

Intimacy has been a struggle for us, working through all that, Ms. Waddell said. This week really brought us back together, physically and emotionally.

 

 

 

It is not always easy to devote time for your spouse, Pastor Young admitted. Just three days into the sex challenge he said he was so tired after getting up before dawn to talk about the importance of having more sex in marriage that he crashed on the bed around 8 p.m. on Tuesday night.

 

 

 

Mrs. Young tried to shake him awake, telling her husband, Come on, its the sex challenge. But Mr. Young murmured, Lets just double up tomorrow, and went back to sleep.

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/us/24sex.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=sex%20church&st=cse[/hide]

 

 

 

I see a change-a.

[BlueLancer]

Of course, but in the mainly Islamic world around the Middle East and such, it's difficult to find liberal Muslims.

 

 

 

Try muslims in countries like Bosnia; They drink beer and whiskey, they gamble at casinos and card tables, a majority of them look as caucasian as an englishman or german, wear european and american clothing, don't even know they have to pray 5 times a day... Some even eat pork.

 

 

 

I visited the country multiple times and spent months there; Liberal muslims exist just as liberal christians do. They are members of their religion nominally just as christians who force themselves to christmas mass once per year; Other than that, they have little to do with the culture or customs surrounding it.

 

 

 

The farther you go in the middle-east & the poorer and more oppressive the country, the more conservative intepretations of the religion and Qur'an you will find

[Saru Inc]

Off-discussion, but I thought I'd slip this in here:

 

[hide=NY Times]GRAPEVINE, Tex. And on the seventh day, there was no rest for married couples. A week after the Rev. Ed Young challenged husbands and wives among his flock of 20,000 to strengthen their unions through Seven Days of Sex, his advice was keep it going.

 

 

 

Mr. Young, an author, a television host and the pastor of the evangelical Fellowship Church, issued his call for a week of congregational copulation among married couples on Nov. 16, while pacing in front of a large bed. Sometimes he reclined on the paisley coverlet while flipping through a Bible, emphasizing his point that it is time for the church to put God back in the bed.

 

 

 

Today were beginning this sexperiment, seven days of sex, he said, with his characteristic mix of humor, showmanship and Scripture. How to move from whining about the economy to whoopee!

 

 

 

On Sunday parishioners at the Grapevine branch watched a prerecorded sermon from Mr. Young and his wife, Lisa, on jumbo screens over a candlelit stage. I know theres been a lot of love going around this week, among the married couples, one of the church musicians said, strumming on a guitar before a crowd of about 3,000.

 

 

 

Mrs. Young, dressed in knee-high black boots and jeans, said that after a week of having sex every day, or close to it, some of us are smiling. For others grappling with infidelities, addictions to pornography or other bitter hurts, theres been some pain; hopefully theres been some forgiveness, too.

 

 

 

Mr. Young advised the couples to keep on doing what youve been doing this week. We should try to double up the amount of intimacy we have in marriage. And when I say intimacy, I dont mean holding hands in the park or a back rub.

 

 

 

Mr. Young, known simply as Ed to his parishioners, and his wife, both 47, have been married for 26 years and have four children, including twins. They have firsthand experience with some of the barriers to an intimate sex life in marriage, including careers, exhaustion, outside commitments, and kids, a word that Mr. Young told church members stands for keeping intimacy at a distance successfully.

 

 

 

But if you make the time to have sex, it will bring you closer to your spouse and to God, he has said. You will perform better at work, leave a loving legacy for your children to follow and may even prevent an extramarital affair.

 

 

 

If youve said, I do, do it, he said. As for single people, I dont know, try eating chocolate cake, he said.

 

 

 

The sex-starved marriage has been the topic of at least two recent books, 365 Nights and Just Do It. But Mr. Youngs call from the pulpit gave the discussion an added charge.

 

 

 

It should not, in his view. This is not a gimmick or a publicity stunt, Mr. Young says. Just look at the sensuousness of the Song of Solomon, or Genesis: two shall become one flesh, or Corinthians: do not deprive each other of sexual relations.

 

 

 

For some reason the church has not talked about it, but we need to, he said, speaking by telephone Friday night on his way to South Africa for a mission trip. There is no shame in marital sex, he added, God thought it up, it was his idea.

 

 

 

Those who attend Fellowships location here or one of several satellite churches in the Dallas area and one in Miami are used to Mr. Youngs provocative style. (The real f word in the marital boudoir, he says, is forgiveness.) But the sex challenge was a bit much for some of his church members, who sat with arms crossed in uncomfortable silence, he recalls, while many in the audience gave him an enthusiastic applause.

 

 

 

One parishioner, Rob Hulsey, 25, said his Baptist relatives raised their eyebrows about it, but he summed up the reaction of many husbands at Fellowship Church when he first heard about the sex challenge Yay!

 

 

 

A week later, he and his wife, who are expecting a baby and have two older children, could not stop holding hands during the sermon. His wife, Madeline Hulsey, 32, said she was just as thrilled to spend a week focusing on her husband. Usually, we start to kiss, and its knock knock knock, Mom! she said.

 

 

 

Others found that, like smiling when you are not particularly happy, having sex when they did not feel like it improved their mood. Just eight months into their marriage, Amy and Cody Waddell had not been very amorous since Cody admitted he had had an affair.

 

 

 

Intimacy has been a struggle for us, working through all that, Ms. Waddell said. This week really brought us back together, physically and emotionally.

 

 

 

It is not always easy to devote time for your spouse, Pastor Young admitted. Just three days into the sex challenge he said he was so tired after getting up before dawn to talk about the importance of having more sex in marriage that he crashed on the bed around 8 p.m. on Tuesday night.

 

 

 

Mrs. Young tried to shake him awake, telling her husband, Come on, its the sex challenge. But Mr. Young murmured, Lets just double up tomorrow, and went back to sleep.

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/us/24sex.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=sex%20church&st=cse[/hide]

 

 

 

I see a change-a.

 

 

 

God encourages sex with MARRIED couples. There's nothing keeping married people from procreating, just out of wedlock.